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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4669577 times)
luigi1111
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September 20, 2016, 02:25:36 PM
 #32441

Quote
The only viable long term solutions that I have seen for a flexible blocksize limit also require a tail emission. That being said this does not mean, I have a proof that a long term solution for a flexible blocksize limit without a tail emission is not possible.

This is a quote from Arcticmine's comment he made earlier from another thread. My question is, what is the theory behind needing a tail emission for dynamic block sizes?

He also mentioned that he does not have proof that a long term solution for not having a tail emission for dynamic block sizes is not possible. So meaning dynamic block sizes even with a capped number of coins with no tail emission could also be possible? Please explain.

See Peter R's paper where the math breaks down at zero emission.

It may work with some type of fee burn or deferment, but I'm not sure how much research has been done on that front.

I do not understand the infatuation with a fixed (in reality shrinking after a certain point) total supply. Non-exponentially-increasing supplies will reach an equilibrium at some point.
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September 20, 2016, 02:26:19 PM
 #32442

(SNR in this thread: declining)

We were just having a bit of fun and the linking of that comic was inspired by my comment that was signal not noise. Sad

Why would you assume that comment wasn't directed straight at myself?
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September 20, 2016, 03:05:16 PM
 #32443

0.10.0 is out of testing and is now live?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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September 20, 2016, 03:26:49 PM
 #32444

downloaded today fresh 2-3hrs on  12mb connection 6.38gigs


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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aminorex
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September 20, 2016, 04:10:42 PM
 #32445

Yeah wolfram is good stuff.  Still some race corruption on win7 x64 host, but manageable.  I should set up a mingw64 tool chain and run Dr. Memory on a head build some time when I have wider margins of liberty.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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September 20, 2016, 04:25:56 PM
Last edit: September 20, 2016, 04:56:27 PM by ArticMine
 #32446

Quote
The only viable long term solutions that I have seen for a flexible blocksize limit also require a tail emission. That being said this does not mean, I have a proof that a long term solution for a flexible blocksize limit without a tail emission is not possible.

This is a quote from Arcticmine's comment he made earlier from another thread. My question is, what is the theory behind needing a tail emission for dynamic block sizes?

He also mentioned that he does not have proof that a long term solution for not having a tail emission for dynamic block sizes is not possible. So meaning dynamic block sizes even with a capped number of coins with no tail emission could also be possible? Please explain.

I posted the theory behind this in this post here on BCT back in January of this year.

ArticMine PMed me after I wrote that flaming post, and said he would reply after studying my posts. He has not yet replied. Does that mean I am correct and there is no solution for Monero. I think so.

It is fundamental. Afaics, you'd have to completely rewrite Moaneuro. Tongue


Rewrite Monero, is not necessary at all but some documentation on how the Cryptonote adaptive blocksize limits actually work is needed, especially given the formula in section 6.2.3 of the Cryptonote Whitepaper is wrong. https://cryptonote.org/whitepaper.pdf. My response will come in time.

I will start by examining the Cryptonote Penalty Function for oversize blocks. This is critical to understand any form of spam attack against a Cryptonote coin. From the Cryptonote whitepaper I cited above the penalty function is:

Penalty = BaseReward (BlkSize / MN - 1)2

The new reward is:

NewReward = BaseReward - Penalty

Where MN is the median of the blocksize over the last N blocks
BlkSize is the size of the current block
BaseReward is the reward as per the emission curve or where applicable the tail emission
NewReward is the actual reward paid to the miner
The Maximum allowed blocksize, BlkSize, is 2MN
The penalty is only applied when BlkSize > (1 + Bmin) MN Where 0 < Bmin < 1 In the Cryptonote whitepaper Bmin = 0.1.
 
The error in the Cryptonote Whitepaper was to set NewReward = Penalty

For simplicity I will define:
BlkSize = (1+B) MN
BaseReward = Rbase
Penalty (for a given B) = PB
NewReward (for a given B) = RB

The penalty for a given B becomes:
PB = RbaseB2
While the new reward for a given B becomes:
RB = Rbase(1 - B2)
The first derivative of PB with respect to B is
dPB / dB = 2RbaseB

In order to attack the coin by bloating the blocksize the attacker needs to cause at least over 50% of the miners to mine oversize blocks and for an expedient attack close to 100% or the miners to mine oversize blocks. This attack must be a maintained over a sustained period of time and more importantly must be maintained in order to keep the oversized blocks, since once the attack stops the blocks will fall back to their normal size.  There are essentially two options here:

1) A 51% attack. I am not going to pursue this for obvious reasons.

2) Induce the existing miners to mine oversize blocks. This is actually the more interesting case; however after cost analysis it becomes effectively a rental version of 1 above. Since the rate of change (first derivative) of PB is proportional to B the most effective option for the attacker is to run the attack with B = 1. The cost of the attack has as a lower bound Rbase but would be higher, and proportional to, Rbase  because miners will demand a substantial premium over the base reward to mine the spam blocks due to the increased risk of orphan blocks as the blocksize increases and competition from legitimate users whose cost per KB for transaction fees needed to compete with the attacker will fall as the blocksize increases. The impact on the coin is to stop new coins from being created while the attack is going on. These coins are replaced by the attacker having to buy coins on the open market in order to continue the attack. The impact of this is to further increase the costs to the attacker.

It at this point where we see the critical importance of a tail emission since if Rbase = 0 this attack has zero cost and the tragedy of the commons actually occurs. This is the critical difference between those Cryptonote coins that have a tail emission, and have solved the problem, such as Monero and those that do not, and will in a matter of time become vulnerable, such as Bytecoin.



At the heart of this issue lies the question of securing a POW coin after the emission runs out. In  Bitcoin the implicit theory is that a "fee market" would somehow develop. The question of how this fee market was supposed to develop however was left un-answered. The source of scarcity in BItcoin to have the market force fees up is the fixed blocksize, and in my opinion this lies at the heart of the small block argument in Bitcoin.

Monero deals with the fee market, POW security and adaptive blocksize issue in two ways.
1) Securing the coin is left entirely to the emission. hence the need for the tail emission
2) Fees are now freed to address the adaptive blocksize. The fee market arises from the total amount of fees per block having to compete against the emission in order to increase the blcoksize. The net effect of all of this is that fees per KB are effectively set by the ratio of the emission to the blocksize.

The point that I must emphasize is that the Monero solution to the adaptive blocksize question will not work in a coin without a tail emission. It could in principle be applied for a limited number of blocks with say the constraint the the emission be above a certain amount after which the blocksize is no longer allowed to increase.

Edit 1: Technically a coin such as Freicoin http://freico.in/ still has a tail emission for the above purposes even though the tail emission in offset by demurrage keeping the max number of coins constant.

Edit 2: To clarify my point about other than "Monero like" possible solutions for an adaptive blocksize limit in Bitcoin is that I have not seen any, and many very smart people have been looking for one without success. I actually suspect that one may in fact not exist without some external source of control; however I am also not aware of a rigorous mathematical proof that such a solution does not exist.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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September 20, 2016, 04:33:08 PM
 #32447

Ha. So true. Start the art's paintings are already famous. We should not give him a hard time for just posting a link, especially one that promotes XMR, IMO. Thanks!

I just find that one really ugly as well as non-original, is green next? I vote purple. But art is subjective so whatever floats your boat I guess, but it should not get spammed in this thread.

Added: State if the Art what is the cost for a original 5 part custom piece that you will not make variants of and sell? I know if I bought your fist one I would not be happy about all the others that look similar. also how much to ship said piece across the pond?


“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
aminorex
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September 20, 2016, 04:47:52 PM
 #32448

Ha. So true. Start the art's paintings are already famous. We should not give him a hard time for just posting a link, especially one that promotes XMR, IMO. Thanks!

I just find that one really ugly as well as non-original, is green next? I vote purple. But art is subjective so whatever floats your boat I guess, but it should not get spammed in this thread.

Added: State if the Art what is the cost for a original 5 part custom piece that you will not make variants of and sell? I know if I bought your fist one I would not be happy about all the others that look similar. also how much to ship said piece across the pond?



Use PM please, or the marketplace thread.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
nickhiggins123
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September 20, 2016, 07:01:19 PM
 #32449

Ok guys, I bought at the top again. Last time I bought at 0.004 after you trolls did some pretty heavy convincing and then we plummeted. I hope this isn't a repeat lol.


Hey, not bad.
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September 20, 2016, 07:19:44 PM
 #32450

I think i can atleast double my holding on this new pump on monero. Hope price will be settled at upper region than it was corrected last time.

 
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arcanaaerobics
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September 20, 2016, 09:18:18 PM
 #32451

I think i can atleast double my holding on this new pump on monero. Hope price will be settled at upper region than it was corrected last time.

You can earn a lot more if you have no rush Wink just wait a year or more, monero will be a great and valuable coin.
And for a long run it's not a bad deal buy this coin right now...
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September 20, 2016, 11:33:24 PM
 #32452

Monero-blockchain-import isn't giving me any feedback as to how far along it is or whether its even working any more at all. I don't know whether to just let it keep going or delete the blockchain and start resyncing from scratch. Is the blockchain bootstrap on the main page of getmonero.org updated to the 0.10.0 format?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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September 21, 2016, 12:03:04 AM
 #32453

I haven't installed  Wolfram Warptangent yet but it looks like I will do so on a brand new computer.  My 2+ year old <$300 comp's HDD  just died.  Of course nothing is backed up except on the computer itself. I have seeds.

I'll need to get one off the shelf tomorrow probably at Micro Center.  Any advice for the resident company idiot?
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September 21, 2016, 12:16:41 AM
 #32454

I haven't installed  Wolfram Warptangent yet but it looks like I will do so on a brand new computer.  My 2+ year old <$300 comp's HDD  just died.  Of course nothing is backed up except on the computer itself. I have seeds.

I'll need to get one off the shelf tomorrow probably at Micro Center.  Any advice for the resident company idiot?

Try to get one with a ssd hd, and make sure you don't get some really old/refurbished cheap one that has a cpu without aes-ni.
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September 21, 2016, 12:23:36 AM
 #32455

I haven't installed  Wolfram Warptangent yet but it looks like I will do so on a brand new computer.  My 2+ year old <$300 comp's HDD  just died.  Of course nothing is backed up except on the computer itself. I have seeds.

I'll need to get one off the shelf tomorrow probably at Micro Center.  Any advice for the resident company idiot?

Try to get one with a ssd hd, and make sure you don't get some really old/refurbished cheap one that has a cpu without aes-ni.

Now that I feel rich I can get a nice one. I'll just use that new credit card I got.  What's one more maxed out credit card?
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September 21, 2016, 12:28:20 AM
 #32456

I haven't installed  Wolfram Warptangent yet but it looks like I will do so on a brand new computer.  My 2+ year old <$300 comp's HDD  just died.  Of course nothing is backed up except on the computer itself. I have seeds.

I'll need to get one off the shelf tomorrow probably at Micro Center.  Any advice for the resident company idiot?

Try to get one with a ssd hd, and make sure you don't get some really old/refurbished cheap one that has a cpu without aes-ni.

Now that I feel rich I can get a nice one. I'll just use that new credit card I got.  What's one more maxed out credit card?

Here's a 256GB SSD for $60 from MicroCenter
https://slickdeals.net/f/9119131-256gb-toshiba-q300-pro-solid-state-drive-66-or-less?src=SiteSearchV2Algo1
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September 21, 2016, 12:31:02 AM
 #32457

I'll just use that new credit card I got.  What's one more maxed out credit card?

You are joking right?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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September 21, 2016, 01:14:34 AM
 #32458

I'll just use that new credit card I got.  What's one more maxed out credit card?

You are joking right?

No.  Do I pay off CC or buy more Monero?  Obviously buy more Monero.  One of the best things I ever did.  Less than 2 years ago I was eying the last can of beans on the shelf. Now I have beans and Monero.
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September 21, 2016, 01:22:42 AM
 #32459

I haven't installed  Wolfram Warptangent yet but it looks like I will do so on a brand new computer.  My 2+ year old <$300 comp's HDD  just died.  Of course nothing is backed up except on the computer itself. I have seeds.

I'll need to get one off the shelf tomorrow probably at Micro Center.  Any advice for the resident company idiot?

Try to get one with a ssd hd, and make sure you don't get some really old/refurbished cheap one that has a cpu without aes-ni.

Now that I feel rich I can get a nice one. I'll just use that new credit card I got.  What's one more maxed out credit card?

Here's a 256GB SSD for $60 from MicroCenter
https://slickdeals.net/f/9119131-256gb-toshiba-q300-pro-solid-state-drive-66-or-less?src=SiteSearchV2Algo1

Thanks but I don't know if my computer supports an SSD and I would have to put an OS on it.  Only my son in law has the ability to help and he is not near by.  Wait I may be seeing them this weekend.  Hmmmm
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September 21, 2016, 01:32:28 AM
 #32460

A few comparisons between 0.9.4.0 and 0.10.0.0
My computer has a quad-core Intel Ivy Bridge cpu with 16GB of RAM and two rotating hard drives in (mainboard controlled) RAID1.

Amount of synchronized blocks (approx) before every mapsize increase
Code:
NewMapsize   0.9.4.0  0.10.0.0
   2048MiB     73821     78841
   3072MiB     88821    103841
   4096MiB    130833    174948
   5120MiB    185839    271848
   6144MiB    261838    430908
   7168MiB    378911    620000
   8192MiB    511505    848980
   9216MiB    675953   1025977
  10240MiB    851832   1127976
  11264MiB   1008979     n/a
  12288MiB   1095977     n/a

Database size (obviously 0.10.0.0 has a few more blocks in it)
Code:
0.10.0.0  7.56GB
 0.9.4.0  9.62GB

Time to sync every 50k blocks in min:sec (approx)
--db-sync-mode fast:async:1000
               fast:async:10000
               fastest:async:1000
               fastest:async:10000
  block   0.9.4.0  0.10.0.0
  50000    11:13    05:11
 100000    40:55    68:43
 150000    50:32    23:29
 200000    57:22    55:10
 250000    51:28    47:36
 300000    56:17    36:39
 350000    64:02    40:06
 400000    68:11    44:24
 450000             37:38
 500000    86:26    41:24
 550000    77:22    40:01
 600000             34:07
 650000    30:12    31:36
 700000    37:10    34:01
 750000    32:37    10:49
 800000    32:28    11:29
 850000    33:17    12:52
 900000    33:59    11:25
 950000    35:59    12:25
1000000    42:03    12:09
1050000   109:23    18:27
1100000    83:18    13:27


One curiosity about 0.9.4.0, when increasing mapsize from 7GB to 8GB, it showed the message "[batch] DB resize needed" instead of the usual "LMDB memory map needs resized, doing that now."
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