[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[btell]

Very true, but then again, it also took nearly 2-3 years to actually gain value and traction. Wouldn't the counterargument be why build a position now when it will ultimately be eaten away by new coins on a daily basis? Why not re-evaluate in 2-3 years time when the majority of the coins have been mined?

Granted, numerous coins suffer from the effects of heavy inflation from daily coinage--take DOGE, LTC, VRT, etc. All have constant sell pressure from miners selling their stash. I realize not everyone sells, but there are plenty of examples showing how much value is loss from when these coins hit the exchanges.

I just offer you two new points of view:

1. Real world economics grows as e^t or t^n, where t being historical time. So it's derivative is roughly e^t or t^(n-1). Physical sense of this derivative is the supply per unit time. So real world economics supply per unit time is exponential or polynomial too.

Bitcoin & monero supply per unit time FADES DRAMMATICALLY as e^(-t) or t^(-n). Consider most 'dangerious' time intervals, dt << t, that exactly that intervals you are afraid of. One can see coin supply is roughly constant at such small time intervals. So overall coins volume is just t^1, t <-[t0, t0+dt].

What does all that mean? FORGET coin inflation completely, even on short-term future! It does not matter at all!

2. Instead of mining, consider how to introduce Monero to wider masses of people. Imagine, think about services around Monero, what can you deliver to people to be useful for them?

p.s.

Given that, you make Monero growing as e^t or t^n. It's much easier to achive, because Monero grows inside a population, no need for the whole polulation to grow! If you consider deeper, such a growing may actualy be explosive - that exactly what we observe with Bitcoin worth margin call exploded to 80000:1 since 2009 to 2014.

p.s.2. So I attract all the people to test rpcwallet, see welcome at Monero missive, Jul 6.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

To whoever praised the Payment ID as a better alternative than multiple receiving addresses:

Multiple receiving addresses keeps anonymity intact in the blockchain, and thus will always be superior to Pay IDs. Payment IDs defeat the purpose of ring signatures and open doors for future regulation (businesses being required by law to collect Payment IDs for every transaction, etc.).

This is why I've said in the past that transactions should force mixin levels greater than 0. Any "features" that reduce anonymity in the block chain can be used against us in the future.

Payment IDs should be treated as a temporary solution until wallets are capable of creating multiple receiving addresses. At that point they should be removed entirely to prevent future abuse.

[btell]

To whoever praised the Payment ID as a better alternative than multiple receiving addresses:

Multiple receiving addresses keeps anonymity intact in the blockchain, and thus will always be superior to Pay IDs. Payment IDs defeat the purpose of ring signatures and open doors for future regulation (businesses being required by law to collect Payment IDs for every transaction, etc.).

This is why I've said in the past that transactions should force mixin levels greater than 0. Any "features" that reduce anonymity in the block chain can be used against us in the future.

Good question.

Devs do you confirm Payment IDs reduce anonymity of THE SENDER, someway?

[Febo]

What do you think about the difficulty drop? Is it because people now run Claymore's miner without the dev fee at a hashrate penalty?

Certain types of mining become unprofitable at current prices.

... so that's actually a good sign :-)

Some people mine to sell it after few years when will be worth to sell, some mine to sell now. And those will mine such coins, that bring them at this moment most profit. So if price is as it is they will stop mining and go mine other coin. Network hash rate lowered for like 10-15% in last few days. More miners that immediately dump will see better profit elsewhere and will leave mining Monero, less Moneros will be on sale on exchanges and will slowly push price higher. that will bring more miners, and it will circle like this forever. Well until something else dont happen. Like was listing XMR on Poloniex and on Mintpal. That makes people speculate what will happen.

[Anon136]

To whoever praised the Payment ID as a better alternative than multiple receiving addresses:

Multiple receiving addresses keeps anonymity intact in the blockchain, and thus will always be superior to Pay IDs. Payment IDs defeat the purpose of ring signatures and open doors for future regulation (businesses being required by law to collect Payment IDs for every transaction, etc.).

This is why I've said in the past that transactions should force mixin levels greater than 0. Any "features" that reduce anonymity in the block chain can be used against us in the future.

Payment IDs should be treated as a temporary solution until wallets are capable of creating multiple receiving addresses. At that point they should be removed entirely to prevent future abuse.

hear hear. this is not going to far. we dont need to fill the market niche of more transparent coins like bitcoin. we dont need to allow people the option to do things transparently. if they want that than they can go to bitcoin. we should be focusing on MAXIMUM anonymity and we should recognize that this will necissarily make transactions more expensive on our network than on bitcoin. but thats ok! this network isnt for average joe to buy his popcorn and dish soap. this is for people who need protection and are willing to pay for it. if you want to buy popcorn and hand soap, use bitcoin. anything that one user can do that might harm the anonymity of another user MUST be stopped.

[Anon136]

To whoever praised the Payment ID as a better alternative than multiple receiving addresses:

Multiple receiving addresses keeps anonymity intact in the blockchain, and thus will always be superior to Pay IDs. Payment IDs defeat the purpose of ring signatures and open doors for future regulation (businesses being required by law to collect Payment IDs for every transaction, etc.).

This is why I've said in the past that transactions should force mixin levels greater than 0. Any "features" that reduce anonymity in the block chain can be used against us in the future.

Payment IDs should be treated as a temporary solution until wallets are capable of creating multiple receiving addresses. At that point they should be removed entirely to prevent future abuse.

hear hear. this is not going to far. we dont need to fill the market niche of more transparent coins like bitcoin. we dont need to allow people the option to do things transparently. if they want that than they can go to bitcoin. we should be focusing on MAXIMUM anonymity and we should recognize that this will necissarily make transactions more expensive on our network than on bitcoin. but thats ok! this network isnt for average joe to buy his popcorn and dish soap. this is for people who need protection and are willing to pay for it. if you want to buy popcorn and hand soap, use bitcoin.

That right there makes it seem as if you just want anonymity to do illegal things only...Posts like that is what ruins it...The point of a "currency" is to be widely accepted as a medium of exchange for goods, so that means you'd want Cryptonote coins to start being accepted widely, for the regular joe. Your whole paragraph makes it seem as if you just want anonymous coins so you could go buy drugs...Smh.

You know what. The beauty of it is that we dont have to agree. If the devs of this project sacrifice the anonymity of users who need anonymity just so that it can have the flexability to do the things that we already have other cryptos for, than ill just take my capital elsewhere . We can both get what we want. Though i would posit that if you are willing to sacrafice the anonymity of everyone so that this network can be used like bitcoin, why not just go use bitcoin, it already isnt anonymous and it already works like bitcoin.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

To whoever praised the Payment ID as a better alternative than multiple receiving addresses:

Multiple receiving addresses keeps anonymity intact in the blockchain, and thus will always be superior to Pay IDs. Payment IDs defeat the purpose of ring signatures and open doors for future regulation (businesses being required by law to collect Payment IDs for every transaction, etc.).

This is why I've said in the past that transactions should force mixin levels greater than 0. Any "features" that reduce anonymity in the block chain can be used against us in the future.

You're going a bit too far imo. There needs to be a clear way to have regular transactions , as well as anonymous transactions. 0 Mixing level gives the regular transaction part, and any above 0 gives the anonymous transation part. That's the whole point, so if you feel like sending a normal transaction, you can, and if you feel like sending anonymously, you can as well.

IMO, that idea would just limit cryptonote coins. If a coin only offered anonymous sending, and not both regular and anonymous sending, it would not go very far.

It's a great idea that cryptonote coins have 0,1,2,3,4 mixing levels. Making it a requirement to have more than 0 is just stupid and would ruin it.

What would "ruin it" is a coin that attempts to do it all. Monero is a coin for private transactions. If you want to make a "non-private" transaction, use bitcoin (or fiat, for that matter).

What stops governments from forcing businesses to require Pay IDs when accepting monero? What stops governments from forcing exchanges to use Pay IDs when users withdraw monero? Once anonymity can be circumvented, regulators will find a way to make it always so.

If we want anonymity to be protected, then every transaction on the block chain must be private.

[darkota]

I was just getting ready to fire back a heavy worded, not well thought out, assault.

But, it seems you guys are right. Monero should aim to be as private/anonymous as possible. Anything less is "giving in".

However, I got Very irritated seeing Anon136's response, it seemed like he only wanted the coin to do "illegal" things, that shouldn't be in the public eye. I believe in privacy centric coins, simply because we need them. In an ever growing, transparent world, were the government(NSA etc), are spying on every civilian in America, and in many parts around the world, we need things that would remind us that we are in control over our lives and our selves.



"than ill just take my capital elsewhere", Hehe I may seem like a immature noob, but I also contemplate investing a sizable amount in Cryptonote coins, well over 300k, much contemplation, little time.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

That right there makes it seem as if you just want anonymity to do illegal things only...

Spoken like a true politician. "Why do you want privacy if you have nothing to hide?"

My reasons for privacy, legal or not, are none of your fucking business. And that's the point of Monero. All transactions should be private, without anyone having to justify themselves to anyone else.

[darkota]

That right there makes it seem as if you just want anonymity to do illegal things only...

Spoken like a true politician. "Why do you want privacy if you have nothing to hide?"

My reasons for privacy, legal or not, are none of your fucking business. And that's the point of Monero. All transactions should be private, without anyone having to justify themselves to anyone else.

I agree. I forgot the meaning of the word private. What you do in your private time is for you to know only, whether you wish to share it or not.

[digicoin]

To whoever praised the Payment ID as a better alternative than multiple receiving addresses:

Multiple receiving addresses keeps anonymity intact in the blockchain, and thus will always be superior to Pay IDs. Payment IDs defeat the purpose of ring signatures and open doors for future regulation (businesses being required by law to collect Payment IDs for every transaction, etc.).

This is why I've said in the past that transactions should force mixin levels greater than 0. Any "features" that reduce anonymity in the block chain can be used against us in the future.

Payment IDs should be treated as a temporary solution until wallets are capable of creating multiple receiving addresses. At that point they should be removed entirely to prevent future abuse.

I think so. Thanks for pointing it out. I already raised the concern to BoolBerry dev crypto_zoidberg few days ago. He said payment ID is for exchanges only. It should not be used in other contexts

[Johnny Mnemonic]

To whoever praised the Payment ID as a better alternative than multiple receiving addresses:

Multiple receiving addresses keeps anonymity intact in the blockchain, and thus will always be superior to Pay IDs. Payment IDs defeat the purpose of ring signatures and open doors for future regulation (businesses being required by law to collect Payment IDs for every transaction, etc.).

This is why I've said in the past that transactions should force mixin levels greater than 0. Any "features" that reduce anonymity in the block chain can be used against us in the future.

Payment IDs should be treated as a temporary solution until wallets are capable of creating multiple receiving addresses. At that point they should be removed entirely to prevent future abuse.

I think so. Thanks for pointing it out. I already raised the concern to BoolBerry dev crypto_zoidberg few days ago. He said payment ID is for exchanges only. It should not be used in other contexts

Unfortunately, it is the only way to identify payments at this point. And I don't believe a better alternative is even a priority.

[Anon136]

I was just getting ready to fire back a heavy worded, not well thought out, assault.

But, it seems you guys are right. Monero should aim to be as private/anonymous as possible. Anything less is "giving in".

However, I got Very irritated seeing Anon136's response, it seemed like he only wanted the coin to do "illegal" things, that shouldn't be in the public eye. I believe in privacy centric coins, simply because we need them. In an ever growing, transparent world, were the government(NSA etc), are spying on every civilian in America, and in many parts around the world, we need things that would remind us that we are in control over our lives and our selves.



"than ill just take my capital elsewhere", Hehe I may seem like a immature noob, but I also contemplate investing a sizable amount in Cryptonote coins, well over 300k, much contemplation, little time.

Heck yes i want people to be able to do "illegal" things. If the government says that all jews must report to the camps and that people are not allowed to hide them in their attic, hell yes i want people to be able to break that law. If the government says that saudi woman are not allowed to own private property than hell yes i want saudi woman to be able to break that law. If the government says that joe must fund some immoral war of aggression hell yes i want joe to have the tools necessary to break that law. Im not going to be coy about the fact that i want people to have the tools necessary to avoid exploitation at the hands of well armed tyrants. Im not ashamed of that. I'm not going to apologize for that. And i dont give a damn what other people think of me, or the technology that i use, because of it. But i assure you, it has nothing to do with me personally wanting to be able to buy drugs and get away with it.

[darkota]

I was just getting ready to fire back a heavy worded, not well thought out, assault.

But, it seems you guys are right. Monero should aim to be as private/anonymous as possible. Anything less is "giving in".

However, I got Very irritated seeing Anon136's response, it seemed like he only wanted the coin to do "illegal" things, that shouldn't be in the public eye. I believe in privacy centric coins, simply because we need them. In an ever growing, transparent world, were the government(NSA etc), are spying on every civilian in America, and in many parts around the world, we need things that would remind us that we are in control over our lives and our selves.



"than ill just take my capital elsewhere", Hehe I may seem like a immature noob, but I also contemplate investing a sizable amount in Cryptonote coins, well over 300k, much contemplation, little time.

Heck yes i want people to be able to do "illegal" things. If the government says that all jews must report to the camps and that people are not allowed to hide them in their attic, hell yes i want people to be able to break that law. If the government says that saudi woman are not allowed to own private property than hell yes i want saudi woman to be able to break that law. If the government says that joe must fund some immoral war of aggression hell yes i want joe to have the tools necessary to break that law. Im not going to be coy about the fact that i want people to have the tools necessary to avoid exploitation at the hands of well armed tyrants. Im not ashamed of that. I'm not going to apologize for that. And i dont give a damn what other people think of me, or the technology that i use, because of it.

In that case, I should rephrase.

Maybe immoral would be better instead of illegal, since all the things you've listed are immoral by the governments themselves.

But anyway, you guys are right. I was too quick to judge.

[Anon136]

I was just getting ready to fire back a heavy worded, not well thought out, assault.

But, it seems you guys are right. Monero should aim to be as private/anonymous as possible. Anything less is "giving in".

However, I got Very irritated seeing Anon136's response, it seemed like he only wanted the coin to do "illegal" things, that shouldn't be in the public eye. I believe in privacy centric coins, simply because we need them. In an ever growing, transparent world, were the government(NSA etc), are spying on every civilian in America, and in many parts around the world, we need things that would remind us that we are in control over our lives and our selves.



"than ill just take my capital elsewhere", Hehe I may seem like a immature noob, but I also contemplate investing a sizable amount in Cryptonote coins, well over 300k, much contemplation, little time.

Heck yes i want people to be able to do "illegal" things. If the government says that all jews must report to the camps and that people are not allowed to hide them in their attic, hell yes i want people to be able to break that law. If the government says that saudi woman are not allowed to own private property than hell yes i want saudi woman to be able to break that law. If the government says that joe must fund some immoral war of aggression hell yes i want joe to have the tools necessary to break that law. Im not going to be coy about the fact that i want people to have the tools necessary to avoid exploitation at the hands of well armed tyrants. Im not ashamed of that. I'm not going to apologize for that. And i dont give a damn what other people think of me, or the technology that i use, because of it.

In that case, I should rephrase.

Maybe immoral would be better instead of illegal, since all the things you've listed are immoral by the governments themselves.

But anyway, you guys are right. I was too quick to judge.

yea unfortunately some amount of immoral things will come with this. it will help to facilitate kidnappings for ransom for example . Its very sad indeed, unfortunately life is all about trade-offs and sometimes you have to make hard choices.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I think the takeaway here is that this is a world currency. Some of us live in happier places than others and some of us have more trust in our governments than others. When it comes to identifying weaknesses in systems it's important to view things from the most corrupt perspective possible, because someone out there will attempt to exploit it.

[fluffypony]

Unfortunately, it is the only way to identify payments at this point. And I don't believe a better alternative is even a priority.

It has been raised in #monero-dev a number of times, and we are considering options. It's not a priority, in sense of it needing to be done in the next two weeks, but we are cognisant of the need to change this and to change it soon.

Personally, I don't see how a rolling payment ID when coupled with a reasonable mixin reduces the anonymity set in any specific or measurable manner, but I understand that most merchant systems won't roll the payment ID over. In terms of threats to anonymity via a reduction in the anonymity set, this is actually quite far down the list. Identifying payments by the uniqueness in the amount is a considerably more realistic threat, and we are combating that by looking at fixed denominations (eg. 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 and so on).

I'd also hazard to say that as a dev team, our focus is on a combination of privacy, untraceability, and security, but we are also trying to figure out how to achieve usability and solve pressing technical concerns. Everything will evolve and improve over time, getting caught up on any single hurdle at this early juncture is just going to mean we're running pillar-to-post. We know academically where weaknesses lie (see the latest annotated whitepaper), and we are expanding that to implementation weaknesses in the code as well. The result of all of this will be a stronger cryptocurrency that can only improve on the reasonably high privacy Monero already provides:)

[smooth]

Re: payment id

Even if the merchant never changes your payment ID at all (or does so in an insecure manner) you can protect you own privacy by designating a single wallet for all transactions to the merchant and then funding that wallet from your "real" wallet using suitable mixing.

I've never been a fan of the pid feature especially in the half baked manner it is currently implemented but privacy-wise effective work arounds exist.

[myagui]

Apologies for the slight off-topic:
If anyone has plans to develop an online wallet for Monero sometime in the future, please PM me if you'd like to have the very meaningful 'monujo.com' domain. I will carry on with plans of my own if there are no takers, but knowing what little time I have available, I'd be happy to let it go towards deserving hands. This is not a straight up market offer - if the Monero team expresses that they want the domain for an 'official' platform, it's theirs for the prize of a pizza.

_{(Pizza is currently valued at exactly 250 XMR. Oh yeah fluffy, the pizza man is back to haunt you!)}
Cheers,
~ Myagui

[jwinterm]

Apologies for the slight off-topic:
If anyone has plans to develop an online wallet for Monero sometime in the future, please PM me if you'd like to have the very meaningful 'monujo.com' domain. I will carry on with plans of my own if there are no takers, but knowing what little time I have available, I'd be happy to let it go towards deserving hands. This is not a straight up market offer - if the Monero team expresses that they want the domain for an 'official' platform, it's theirs for the prize of a pizza.

_{(Pizza is currently valued at exactly 250 XMR. Oh yeah fluffy, the pizza man is back to haunt you!)}
Cheers,
~ Myagui

lololol that is one cheesy motherfucking pizza