Starfish BCB - Loans and Deposits

[Trance104]

I'm not joining the bank run my small amount of compounding coins are yours to hold until you shut up shop.  I'm sure you would repay me just like HashKing has nearly finished doing and I expect him to repay the final amount in the near future.

Same here Mr. Star!!! 

I'll hold out until you decide to shut it down.

[Gerco]

Same here. I may only have a few coins deposited, but joining a bank run is the fastest way of never seeing any of those back. Bank runs are a panic reaction and never result in anything good. If the deposit taker is going to repay, he will. If he won't, joining the bank run will net you exactly 0 in the end anyway.

[sp0rus]

I'm going to throw in my agreement with the above posts.  Not joining the bank run and staying with you until you decide to completely close up shop.

[Micon]

1)  The cries of "I'm going to leave my coins with you as long as possible to help you out" is just insane.  None of you will ever read this post later after many months have passed and you have long forgotten about this loss. 

2)  A "Bank Run" is very different than a Ponzi coming to close.  Joel Katz likely can explain it if he hasn't already. 

3)  not much in the way of a Starfish statement recently.  This should scare you if you still have coins tied up in this scam.

[Buffer Overflow]

This should scare you if you still have coins tied up in this scam.

Translation: "I'm trying to scare everyone, I get a buzz out of it."

[Puppet]

This should scare you if you still have coins tied up in this scam.

Translation: "I'm trying to scare everyone, I get a buzz out of it."

The facts should be enough to scare you. How many of debtors Patrick in the past vouched for and/or lent to and/or invested in have recently been outed as scammers, insolvent or both?

hasking
Nckrazze
Ineedausername
imsaguy
kluge (?)
pirate

Soon to be followed by:
ziggystar (already in default, website went poof)
RustyRyan
Obsi

Even if patrick is not a scammer himself, it seems highly unlikely starfish would be solvent if almost all of his A/AA/AAA rated customers and deposit takers are in default.

[BadBitcoin (James Sutton)]

This should scare you if you still have coins tied up in this scam.

Translation: "I'm trying to scare everyone, I get a buzz out of it."

The facts should be enough to scare you. How many of debtors Patrick in the past vouched for and/or lent to and/or invested in have recently been outed as scammers, insolvent or both?

hasking
Nckrazze
Ineedausername
imsaguy
kluge (?)
pirate

Soon to be followed by:
ziggystar (already in default, website went poof)
RustyRyan
Obsi

Even if patrick is not a scammer himself, it seems highly unlikely starfish would be solvent if almost all of his A/AA/AAA rated customers and deposit takers are in default.

I'm still not sure why hashking is considered a scammer, hes paying people back as best he can, pirate doesn't even have a scammer tag right now, and kluge is also looking to find a way to pay everyone back, I don't know about the others but he gave them a credit report, that isn't a vouch in the slightest, hes stated this a few times.

TL;DR: you're trying to scare people because you get a kick out of it.

[Micon]

Since brown starfish likes to delete stuff, here is his current "who pays what" thread [ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81542.0 ] once stickied if you can believe that:

Update 28-Aug-2012: Added RustyRyan.  The rating is lower than some of the others because he is new and has a small deposit business, but this will improve over time.
Update 30-Aug-2012: Added vescudero.
Update 2-Sep-2012: Initial credit rating for Namworld and BTC-Bond added.

Disclaimers:
1: This OP is being updated as there are a large number of changes taking place with rates this month (August).
2: all reasonable care has been taken to extract valid information and present it fairly.  Issuers or eagle-eyed users can either post at the bottom of this thread or pm me to advise changes/corrections.  Being listed here is not an endorsement and depositors are expected to undertake their own due diligence before entrusting their coins with someone.

Deposit Takers

User_name	Weekly	Monthly	Since	Credit Rating	Notes	Link
RustyRyan	3.00%	-	28-Jul-12	A-	10 coin/4 week minimum, weekly payout	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=96163.0
smart/ziggy	-	11.1%	May-11	AA-	Bank book	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81357.0
vescudero	1.50%	-	Jun-12	AA-	weekly payments, deposits up to 50BTC	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89122.0
Chungenhung	1.36%	6.0%	Jan-12	AA	50 coin minimum	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56853.0
Kluge	0.97%	4.25%	Mar-12	AAA	32 day deposit	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67446.0

New Deposit Takers

User_name

Weekly

Monthly

Since

Credit Rating

Notes

Link

GLBSE fixed interest instruments  Information currently out of date - being updated 17-Aug-2012

__Issuer__	__Instrument__	Weekly	5-day price	Issued Volume	Verified	Notes	Link
Teek	TEEK.B	3.00%	0.0871	2,000	No	Fixed interest , not guaranteed	https://glbse.com/asset/view/TEEK.B
ChaangNoi	TYGRR.BOND-B	2.00%	0.0990	40,000	No	GLBSE has "blank" contract	https://glbse.com/asset/view/TYGRR.BOND-B
Kluge	BDK.BND	1.00%	0.1010	26,367	Yes	Fixed interest - C.R. "AA"	https://glbse.com/asset/view/BDK.BND
Teek	TEEK.A	0.30%	0.9440	10,000	No	Guaranteed	https://glbse.com/asset/view/TEEK.A
Namworld	BTC-Bond	0.50%	0.0100	12,400	Yes	Fixed interest - C.R. "A-"	https://glbse.com/asset/view/BTC-BOND

Other semi-fixed interest instruments

__Issuer__

__Instrument__

Weekly

Notes

Link

For an excellent table of GLBSE returns/yields, please refer to stochastic's thread in "securities" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74711.0

Credit Rating Data

.	.	Liabilities /	Business transaprancy	Liabilities /	Current_liabilities /	Business Size	Business Size	Time in	Weighted	.	.
Who	__When__	monthly income	Assessment	Assets	Liquid_Assets	Funds managed	Customers	"business"	Score	Modifiers	Overall
chungenhung	13-Aug-12	2.00	.	25.0%	80.0%	16000	20	8	.	+0	.
Rating	Scores	6	.	6	5	6	2	5	5	.	AA
Smart/ZiggyStar	13-Jul-12	11.60	Trading/opaque	70.2%	67.5%	8258	20?40	12	.	+2
Rating	Scores	3	2	5	5	5	2	6	4.0	+2	AA-
Ineedausername	22-Jul-12	1.08	.	18.2%	18.6%	35640	.	8	.	+1	.
Rating	Scores	6	.	6	6	6	.	5	5.8	+1	AA+
Kluge	22-Jul-12	7.12	.	45.0%	20.4%	8996	.	7	.	+3	.
Rating	Scores	4	.	6	6	5	.	5	5.2	+3	AAA
RustyRyan	29-Jul-12	1.17	Mining/loans	11.3%	3.8%	350	15	1	.	+2	.
Rating	Scores	6	3	6	6	1	1	0	3.29	+2	A-
vescudero	29-Jul-12	3.02	Opaque	20.7%	36.0%	2550	83	2	.	+2	.
Rating	Scores	5	2	6	6	4	4	1	4	-	AA-
BTC-Bond	02-Sep-12	0.43	Holdings disclosed	2.2%	0.3%	32	3.2	1	.	+2	.
Rating	Scores	6	5	6	6	0	0	0	3	+2	A-

Also reference https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81542.msg1100627#msg1100627 for some general guidance.
Notes: Some deposit takers use 30-days rather than one month.  The calculation convert weekly to monthly by [(1+r)^(52/12)-1] and similarly, monthly rates are converted back to weekly.

[Micon]

I'm still not sure why hashking is considered a scammer, hes paying people back as best he can, pirate doesn't even have a scammer tag right now, and kluge is also looking to find a way to pay everyone back, I don't know about the others but he gave them a credit report, that isn't a vouch in the slightest, hes stated this a few times.

TL;DR: you're trying to scare people because you get a kick out of it.

well this the definition of FUD.  totally inaccurate.

1)  Pirate has the scammer tag.  Here look:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=35827

2)  Hashking "trying to pay back people best he can" is horrible logic IMO.  This guy is just like the others:  borrow at high rates, use future borrowing to pay past interest.  it's not a sustainable system.  It's a scam.

3)  I willing to escrow a large bet on Kluge not paying everyone back in full in a timely matter.

scaring people to get a kick out of it?  hardly.  we're trying to help bitcoin from being associated with these scams.  We don't profit from this, save if anyone bets us that they are scams and actually pays.

[Puppet]

I'm still not sure why hashking is considered a scammer,

Because he lied about his deposit guarantee. He claimed it wasnt exposed to pirate debt while it was in fact invested in a BCST account.
Offering  "only" 2% per week instead of 7% in return for being  "pirate-safe"  while in reality investing that money in to pirate at 7% is a scam.

hes paying people back as best he can,

Are you saying he isnt in default?
BTW, he is speaking of 3+ years and is paying from his mining revenue. How much do you think he will make from his mining farm  in just 1 year?

pirate doesn't even have a scammer tag right now

He does.

and kluge is also looking to find a way to pay everyone back

Are you saying he isnt in default?

, I don't know about the others but he gave them a credit report,

Look m up. Mind you, those where just his top rated debtors. Makes you wonder about the others, no?

that isn't a vouch in the slightest, hes stated this a few times.

it is a vouch. Those rating have meaning. As he linked himself:
AAA             Extremely strong capacity to meet financial commitments. Highest Rating.
AA              Very strong capacity to meet financial commitments.
A               Strong capacity to meet financial commitments, but somewhat susceptible to adverse economic conditions and changes in circumstances.

Ziggy also prominently featured his AAA rating in his thread title, giving more false credibility to his scam.
If those ratings are meaningless to assess risks, then dont publish them.

[Buffer Overflow]

scaring people to get a kick out of it?  hardly.  we're trying to help bitcoin from being associated with these scams.  We don't profit from this, save if anyone bets us that they are scams and actually pays.

Micon; if you have no money invested, don't worry about it. I certainly wouldn't be. I got better things in life to worry about.

I think some people have got too much spare time on their hands.

[Chang Hum]

Hey,

I've got a bit of loose change and I'm thinking of getting into the money lending racket myself is it OK to ask a bit of advice of you? firstly I would like to say I think Micon's bang out of order for trolling your thread the way he has when you're obviously just trying to give greedy stupid naive members of the community a chance to make some easy money! I'm fascinated by how your business model works and would like to ask a few questions.

After reading through the thread you seem to normally have in excess of 20k bitcoins from depositors which you use to fund your lending business.

-If I was going to do something similar would I be better off;

a) remortgaging to raise capital (currently 3.99% apr), so for 20k working capital: 20k * 3.99% = 798 (annual cost of borrowing)

I think the benefit of doing it like this would be that administration would be really simple, I know the banks not going to demand money back at any time as long as I meet my monthly payments.

b) borrow lots of little deposits from hundreds of people and give them 1% compounded interest per week, so for 20k working capital: 20k+1%^52.1775 = 33613

Not really sure the benefit of doing it this way because the administration must be nightmare, people can demand money back at any time giving liquidity problems and it's 42 times more expensive.

2) You must have to match what you've taken in deposits very closely with what you lend to make any profit as your borrowed capital is constantly compounding interest. How does this work when;

a) You lend to people at 281% APR (but for short term loans), in England where I'm from the only people that borrow at that rate are extremely high risk borrowers looking for payday loans from companies like Quickquid or Wonga hence the need for high interest. Added to the risk is the fact that as bitcoins deflationary these people who are desperate for money to pay such high loan fees then lose money when they have to convert back to bitcoin.
-What's your default rate like
-what's it like administrating these massive amounts of loans and deposits with just you and your wife, or have you got a team?

b) You've mentioned many times throughout the thread most of these borrowers you source from outside of bitcoins no1 forum which is obviously backed up by 22 pages of this thread in which you've taken vast deposits but no loans that amount to anything.

-Where do you find all these people?
-How do you vouch for their credit worthiness?
-How can you possibly administrate all this on such low margins?
-how do you reclaim money from those that default which must be a massive percentage?
-Do you explain the risks to your borrowers of paying insanely high interest rates on a deflationary currency and how did you cope with the last couple of large price spikes?

I've noticed you've had a few people trolling your thread notably Micon (what a jerk, I know he's only trying to save peoples life savings from unscrupulous scammers but still!), is that a problem for you given the liquidity issues your method of financing give you or is it just the case that logical concerns about financial issues tend to go over these sorts of peoples heads anyway?

[imsaguy]

This should scare you if you still have coins tied up in this scam.

Translation: "I'm trying to scare everyone, I get a buzz out of it."

The facts should be enough to scare you. How many of debtors Patrick in the past vouched for and/or lent to and/or invested in have recently been outed as scammers, insolvent or both?

hasking
Nckrazze
Ineedausername
imsaguy
kluge (?)
pirate

Soon to be followed by:
ziggystar (already in default, website went poof)
RustyRyan
Obsi

Even if patrick is not a scammer himself, it seems highly unlikely starfish would be solvent if almost all of his A/AA/AAA rated customers and deposit takers are in default.

I'm not insolvent nor a scammer.  EIEIO is a mining farm, it can't just magically spit out hundreds of coins in a matter of days.  EIEIO was never that large.

[Puppet]

I'm not insolvent nor a scammer.  

Right. You are so solvent that you cant pay your debtors. Or if you prefer, so honest that you refuse to pay them even though you can.
Instead you unilaterally decided to keep their coins and the investments that were made with them, so you can profit first if they pan out months from here, and screw  everyone for good if they dont.

Either way, if you owe money to patrick it seems rather likely patrick wont be seeing it back soon, if ever, so you firmly belong on that list.

[imsaguy]

Right. You are so solvent that you cant pay your debtors.

I sent out nearly 3k of coins in the last month.  If all I was doing was sitting on coins, paying people from imaginary profits, that would be a ponzi. That's not what I did, I'm mining.

Or if you prefer, so honest that you refuse to pay them even though you can.
Instead you unilaterally decided to keep their coins and the investments that were made with them, so you can profit first if they pan out months from here, and screw  everyone for good if they dont.

The BTC to USD appreciation has made the BTC valuation of the gear exceptionally low compared to what it was bought for.  So I liquidate the gear, then what?  Magically come up with the rest of the coins? There's a reason "Extended" is in the title.  Mining, while it does have its gushes around the time that there's a generation change in gear, is a long term affair.   Once ASIC arrives, dividends can continue, there are coins to continue expansion to keep the dividend stream continuing and there are coins for buyouts.  

Either way, if you owe money to Patrick it seems rather likely Patrick wont be seeing it back soon, if ever, so you firmly belong on that list.

If I owe Patrick money, him not paying back the people he owes doesn't determine my status as a scammer.  If his not paying people makes me a scammer, then I can just shift all the blame to the people that have under performed in doing business with EIEIO.  

[BadBitcoin (James Sutton)]

I'm still not sure why hashking is considered a scammer,

Because he lied about his deposit guarantee. He claimed it wasnt exposed to pirate debt while it was in fact invested in a BCST account.
Offering  "only" 2% per week instead of 7% in return for being  "pirate-safe"  while in reality investing that money in to pirate at 7% is a scam.

hes paying people back as best he can,

Are you saying he isnt in default?
BTW, he is speaking of 3+ years and is paying from his mining revenue. How much do you think he will make from his mining farm  in just 1 year?

pirate doesn't even have a scammer tag right now

He does.

and kluge is also looking to find a way to pay everyone back

Are you saying he isnt in default?

, I don't know about the others but he gave them a credit report,

Look m up. Mind you, those where just his top rated debtors. Makes you wonder about the others, no?

that isn't a vouch in the slightest, hes stated this a few times.

it is a vouch. Those rating have meaning. As he linked himself:
AAA             Extremely strong capacity to meet financial commitments. Highest Rating.
AA              Very strong capacity to meet financial commitments.
A               Strong capacity to meet financial commitments, but somewhat susceptible to adverse economic conditions and changes in circumstances.

Ziggy also prominently featured his AAA rating in his thread title, giving more false credibility to his scam.
If those ratings are meaningless to assess risks, then dont publish them.

sure they are in default, my father defaulted on a real life line of credit and declared bankraupcy, does that make him a scammer?


Hashking put his trust in usagi for insurance, and usagi is a complete toolbox. Hashking is negligent, not a scammer, if we want to play the scammer=negligence, then everyone at intersango deserves a scammer tag as well.

and credit ratings are as valuable as the person giving them out, they have no legal basis and I could give patrick a rating of AAA for his stellar service I've had with him, however he has no legal credentials or responsibilty to the public as would be the case of a professional acting in a professional capacity. Its one guy on the forums giving credit ratings to people based off his intuition, theres nothing wrong with that, but I would hope you aren't stupid enough to take them are complete truths.

[Puppet]

The BTC to USD appreciation has made the BTC valuation of the gear exceptionally low compared to what it was bought for.  So I liquidate the gear, then what?  Magically come up with the rest of the coins?

So you are insolvent. Thanks for confirming.

[imsaguy]

The BTC to USD appreciation has made the BTC valuation of the gear exceptionally low compared to what it was bought for.  So I liquidate the gear, then what?  Magically come up with the rest of the coins?

So you are insolvent. Thanks for confirming.

No, I'm Illiquid.  There's a difference.  When you decide to stop hiding behind your sock, I'll reply.  Otherwise you get the ignore because aren't contributing anything that adds value and are wasting my time.

[Puppet]

sure they are in default, my father defaulted on a real life line of credit and declared bankraupcy, does that make him a scammer?

I never said that. I said those people where in default and/or scammers. The difference to creditors isnt that big though.

Hashking put his trust in usagi for insurance,

AFAIK Hashking put the  guaranteed deposits in to a pirate account all by himself and has admitted to that.

and usagi is a complete toolbox.

Cant disagree with that, its probably just a matter of time before he ends up on that list too.

and credit ratings are as valuable as the person giving them out, they have no legal basis and I could give patrick a rating of AAA for his stellar service I've had with him, however he has no legal credentials or responsibilty to the public as would be the case of a professional acting in a professional capacity.

What is a credit rating? Its an assessment of someone ability to repay his debt. Its not an assessment of how much you like a guy or how well he served you. Its not even about their past track record.

To be fair, its very difficult to assess credit risks in bitcoin land with anonymous people and virtually anonymous coins. Thats why one shouldnt go lightly about giving highest possible credit ratings to people you dont know anything about, doing a business they wont tell you anything about, and that more often than not a 10 year old could identify as almost certain scams.

The worst part about it is that the scammers will abuse you and feed you false information that you can not verify or that they wont let you verify. If you can not do the most basic verification of things like identify, RL financial situation, business model, assets of the business etc, then dont bother giving ratings or give them all F's, otherwise all you do it attract and promote scams and you give a negative incentive to honest people or businesses to disclose such information. Why settle for C when you get AAA by just lying or not disclosing?

[Puppet]

The BTC to USD appreciation has made the BTC valuation of the gear exceptionally low compared to what it was bought for.  So I liquidate the gear, then what?  Magically come up with the rest of the coins?

So you are insolvent. Thanks for confirming.

No, I'm Illiquid.  There's a difference.

Indeed there is. Look up the meaning of the word insolvent. If liquidating your gear doesnt allow you to settle your debt, then you are insolvent.