rpietila Altcoin Observer

[binaryFate]

If I use Aminorex formula to calculate marginal miner price at AWS with Wolf miner I get : 0.0054

Cannot find it. Link please?

[1715426475]

1715426475

[1715426475]

1715426475

[1715426475]

1715426475

[1715426475]

1715426475

[1715426475]

1715426475

[kbm]

If I use Aminorex formula to calculate marginal miner price at AWS with Wolf miner I get : 0.0054

I would make the point that, most likely, the excess marginal mining production by AWS instances is shifting toward more of a balance between GPU's and CPU's and not CPU's alone .. with the introduction of more refined and available software. It's a balance that's not been observed before that I know of .. so the questions you're asking don't have simple answers because there's no real history to compare this to; however, the price is fluctuating, more so than it is decreasing or increasing right now.

[darlidada]

If I use Aminorex formula to calculate marginal miner price at AWS with Wolf miner I get : 0.0054

Cannot find it. Link please?

So, estimated cost to produce = Difficulty/82800000000

One had might as well do it right.  There are other variables, although they vary less rapidly over time than does difficulty:

(Difficulty hash/block * Rate $/hr) / (Hostrate hash/sec * 3600 sec/hr * Reward xmr/block * Nonorphan block/block * Exchange $/btc) = N btc/xmr

Rate (EC2 c3.8xlarge spot instance pricing) is ~0.2575 usd/hr [1]
Exchange is ~600 usd/btc
Difficulty is 8.1e8 [2]
Hostrate (EC2 c3.8xlarge) is 610 hash/sec [2]
Reward is ~16.07 xmr/block [3]
Nonorphan rate (pool mined) is ~0.93

1. http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/purchasing-options/spot-instances/
2. https://minergate.com/blockchain/mro/block/372ad817b077c058e269ae0ea7c6d6bc603578be568e3f51f2e4d436ede04c51
3. https://docs.google.com/a/southoftheclouds.net/spreadsheets/d/1MI-ic0Os25hgGUImW54sUIjZY_pUNQNa_W8Se5pRGBs

EDIT: with new parameters at this moment the marginal production cost estimate is 0.011 btc/xmr (2014-06-23 01:00 GMT)

[aminorex]

note the corrected aws c3.8xl hash rate, most recent posting data, is 1201, as mentioned earlier in this thread.  block rewards coming in at 15.99, aws spot rate around .26.

GPU hashing clouds the issue a bit, but it's pretty inaccessible still, requires substantial GPU hardware (repurposed from scrypt presumably) and adding capacity to mine XMR specifically seems unlikely.  A model for GPU hash pricing should cover all the CNs (in the broad sense, i.e. including BBR), account for nvidia vs. amd distribution, and rebalance according to yield.  Do-able, but non-trivial.  The AWS marginal model has the advantage of being trivially available information and the disadvantage of becoming less and less predictive as GPU hashing increases.
 

[statdude]

whats the latest rate? current hash is 13,263,873.50

[aminorex]

whats the latest rate? current hash is 13,263,873.50

I get just under 0057.  It seems likely that the current price can't last.  Hot money will burn off eventually.  But it will do so slowly, as all the alt markets are at low volume ebb while btc is depressed.  Some speculate that when btc is depressed, alt traders tend to rotate into btc, in anticipation of rising btc costs.  Given that alt trades are 99% using btc as numeraire,  this seems utter folly to me, but that doesn't make it untrue.  If true, they will lose quite a bit of value in the rotation process, on average.
 

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

Hot money will burn off eventually.

Simplify, please.  I interpret this to mean, "buying will subside".

[aminorex]

Hot money will burn off eventually.

Simplify, please.  I interpret this to mean, "buying will subside".

It wasn't my intent.  Market evidence seems to be that selling is abating faster than buying is abating, recently, although both are abating.

Momentum tends to drive the price beyond equilibria, and most of my effort goes into trying to find the equilibrium points and their relative stability.  I'm uncomfortable predicting how far momentum will overshoot.  Others are better at that.  I have a monkey for that.  (But he is ignorant of XMR yet.)

I do think we are near current equilibrium, and the equilibrium point is rising with difficulty. 

There is some small forum evidence that p&ds are planning to hit XMR again soon, but I hope not.  I prefer organic growth and low volatility.

[Its About Sharing]

whats the latest rate? current hash is 13,263,873.50

I get just under 0057.  It seems likely that the current price can't last.  Hot money will burn off eventually.  But it will do so slowly, as all the alt markets are at low volume ebb while btc is depressed.  Some speculate that when btc is depressed, alt traders tend to rotate into btc, in anticipation of rising btc costs.  Given that alt trades are 99% using btc as numeraire,  this seems utter folly to me, but that doesn't make it untrue.  If true, they will lose quite a bit of value in the rotation process, on average.
 

What do you think will happen when BTC is at $10,000 per BTC to the alt coins? Will they still move at the same ratios? I am getting the feeling they might not due to perceived value but then again when you can buy an Alt coin with a strong network for a fraction of that, then perhaps they do move together. For comparisons sake XMR at .005 would equate to $50. Dark at .017 = $170.
And as time goes on I think many coins would be accepted. It will be "plug and play" as far as many websites are concerned. And who knows what happens once we have our AOL moment.

I do however think that when BTC really starts to move up in price we will see a CLEAR distinction between the #2-#5 coins (for example) and those lesser ones.
Something like XMR, if things continue well with development and eventual a GUI wallet for wider adoption, will be very catchy. Unfortunately some of the coins with
questionable pasts (e.g. Dark, Cryptcoin, etc.) might take off just on "name" along.

This is certainly going to get more and more interesting. Again, enjoy the ride fellas.

IAS

[AlexGR]

Unfortunately some of the coins with
questionable pasts (e.g. Dark, Cryptcoin, etc.) might take off just on "name" along.

Dark = market leader, the coin that actually developed anonymous solutions when others were saying "the exchanges will ban you", "nobody needs anonymity", "good luck with your darkcoin name - it'll go nowhere", "the NSA will hunt you down", "it will be banned" and all type of idiotic stuff.

It cannot be compared with coins that are trailing in its wake (offering nothing btw - like Cryptcoin which right now has a ...whitepaper).

There is a reason why DRK is where it is and others are where they are:

This is a Quantum Reality, meaning thoughts interact with this world. But more importantly, visions interact with this world in a more potent way. A man with a vision can move mountains. But it's all related to the basic intent of the vision. Nothing happens here by accident, no matter what Evan has said - because even his quotes are contradictory on occasion, so you'll either go with one or the other.

Evan's vision, stated since the start, was to make a top altcoin that could even give Bitcoin a run for its money.

We're building XCoin into a moderately-anonymous network, where the transactions are sent encrypted and only able to be read the party who is receiving the funds. Blocks will be published via CoinJoin as to ensure some amount of anonymity. This is being built in such a way to compete with the other top alt-coins and maybe even Bitcoin. 

My goal with Darkcoin has always been to take the #2 spot from Litecoin.

...and this vision is gradually being build up four-five months along the way. The whole chain of top altcoins is being catalyzed by DRK's ascent and Litecoin has lost half its value and gaining downward momentum as even the multi-thousand BTC walls were unable to preserve its price >0.017. The battle of Dark vs Lite is on. At the same time, ripples have been made in the altcoin world due to DRK and the pursuit of anonymity.

The main "vision" and intent of coins that are trying to cash-in in the wake of Dark, is like this: "We can also make an anonymous coin / or promised anon coin and get some share of the pie / get some cash". Some by offering something, some by going the scam way in which the dev runs with the money straight away. But these coins will always be limited by the vision of their creator which was to be small-time players that are just going to take some part of the slice. Nobody has a larger vision and this lack of vision is what will forever hinder their project in ways that they cannot fathom or calculate. I could analyze that one further on how the lack of vision has affected other anon cryptocurrencies in their deficiencies but it would be perceived as an attack to them, so I won't.

[Dotto]

What do you think will happen when BTC is at $10,000 per BTC to the alt coins? Will they still move at the same ratios? I am getting the feeling they might not due to perceived value but then again when you can buy an Alt coin with a strong network for a fraction of that, then perhaps they do move together. For comparisons sake XMR at .005 would equate to $50. Dark at .017 = $170.

I have wondered the same so many times, and have arrived the same conclusion: probably alts will multiply his value together.

In fact, it seems XMR at .005 is overselled and could easily duplicate its value vs BTC in the coming weeks/months.

.008-.01 seems more reasonable in short-mid term

[aminorex]

Dark = market leader

Indisputibly so.  I consider dark to be shady, however.  I sold out of drk and moved to xmr for three primary reasons: (1) CN protocol allows me to actually control the size of my anonymity set, and I have confidence that the set will hold; not so drk.  (2) P&D/premine/ponzi factors are beyond my tolerance level in drk.  (3) Snake oil crypto claims raise my hackles.  I'm just not going to trust my life and treasure to drk' s protocols.  Great coin if you love forks, however.

I don't think anyone advocates xmr more strongly than I do.  I am taking my own medicine, and I don't want anyone else to get sick either.  It definitely benefits me if others adopt XMR, but I strongly believe that it will benefit them as well, as long as they don't own more than they can hold in strong hands.  

It isn't the leading coin with privacy claims, in terms of market cap.  It isn't the first cryptonote protocol coin.  It isn't the most user friendly coin by a nautical mile.  But it does have a balance of factors which convince me that it is the leading candidate to supply the net with private liquidity for years to come.  In areas where it is weak, it is good enough, and improving.  In areas where it is strong, it is distinguished from its competitors by the honesty and frankness of its development team, it's open-source ethos, its fair launch, its methodical, un-hyped progress, in a well-planned and prioritized process, and the size and growth of its hashing infrastructure.

I really do think that slow and steady can win this race.  It's already good enough for technically aware people to use, and it won't take long for it to be good enough for anyone who is comfortable with bitcoin today to use it.  How long it will take before it is suitable for mainstream use, I dare not venture -- years, I would say, since that is a very high bar of usability (think iPod).  But it has all it needs now to get there in due time.

[aminorex]

What do you think will happen when BTC is at $10,000 per BTC to the alt coins? Will they still move at the same ratios? I am getting the feeling they might not due to perceived value but then again when you can buy an Alt coin with a strong network for a fraction of that, then perhaps they do move together. For comparisons sake XMR at .005 would equate to $50. Dark at .017 = $170.

On the last spike, when China was manic on BTC, it went manic on LTC even bigger, but slightly later.  On the chart we see that during its heyday LTC\USD would lag BTC\USD at the start of a run-up, then slingshot beyond it at the peak.  I think LTC's heyday is truly over, and don't expect it to exhibit the same behaviour on the next BTC spike, but DRK and XMR both may be subjected to this elastic-attachment mechanic.

[shmadz]

I don't know if pictures are allowed in here but


source: https://poloniex.com/exchange/btc_xmr


is it a bottom or just bravado?

[slapper]

I consider dark to be shady, however.  I sold out of drk and moved to xmr for three primary reasons: (1) CN protocol allows me to actually control the size of my anonymity set, and I have confidence that the set will hold; not so drk.  (2) P&D/premine/ponzi factors are beyond my tolerance level in drk.  (3) Snake oil crypto claims raise my hackles.  I'm just not going to trust my life and treasure to drk' s protocols.  Great coin if you love forks, however.

Bummed at the tirade, especially #3   Would you be able to give some examples of that?

I don't know if pictures are allowed in here but


source: https://poloniex.com/exchange/btc_xmr


is it a bottom or just bravado?

Very low Mintpal volume. Price is not reflective of market confidence IMO. I was watching the sells. It is just few coins being sold for  BTC0.2/0.5 I am guessing to indulge in some PumpNDump that are forming over the last 2-3 days. Profits will go back to where they originally came from.

[AlexGR]

Dark = market leader

Indisputibly so.  I consider dark to be shady, however.  I sold out of drk and moved to xmr for three primary reasons: (1) CN protocol allows me to actually control the size of my anonymity set, and I have confidence that the set will hold; not so drk.  (2) P&D/premine/ponzi factors are beyond my tolerance level in drk.  (3) Snake oil crypto claims raise my hackles.  I'm just not going to trust my life and treasure to drk' s protocols.  Great coin if you love forks, however.

I don't think anyone advocates xmr more strongly than I do.  I am taking my own medicine, and I don't want anyone else to get sick either.  It definitely benefits me if others adopt XMR, but I strongly believe that it will benefit them as well, as long as they don't own more than they can hold in strong hands.  

It isn't the leading coin with privacy claims, in terms of market cap.  It isn't the first cryptonote protocol coin.  It isn't the most user friendly coin by a nautical mile.  But it does have a balance of factors which convince me that it is the leading candidate to supply the net with private liquidity for years to come.  In areas where it is weak, it is good enough, and improving.  In areas where it is strong, it is distinguished from its competitors by the honesty and frankness of its development team, it's open-source ethos, its fair launch, its methodical, un-hyped progress, in a well-planned and prioritized process, and the size and growth of its hashing infrastructure.

I really do think that slow and steady can win this race.  It's already good enough for technically aware people to use, and it won't take long for it to be good enough for anyone who is comfortable with bitcoin today to use it.  How long it will take before it is suitable for mainstream use, I dare not venture -- years, I would say, since that is a very high bar of usability (think iPod).  But it has all it needs now to get there in due time.

Personally, I'm invested, to some degree or the other, in the whole anonymous market - so I don't have to worry so much about who wins and who doesn't. I'm well hedged so to speak.

There are fundamentals in place that I have analyzed in the DRK thread, with great precision - as to how the situation would evolve in terms of marketcaps and other anon coins that would join the party after DRK... That was ~4 months ago. The context of the discussion was about the need for marketing and promotion of DRK, where I said that the fundamentals of explosive growth in new markets will take care of everything - so no real need for promo/hype/spamming etc.

The general crypto boom is over. Those who saw 8000%+ profits from BTC in < 2 years were the lucky few. Who we be the Levi Strauss of the crypto era - a man who started a small business selling new-fanged denim jeans to the gold miners back in '49. Perhaps you've heard Levi's?

I think cryptos in general have a lot of potential. I mean most people don't even know what Bitcoin is, let alone altcoins. And, if you factor in that around three quarters of the planet live in countries with high inflation rate (not EUR, GBP, USD etc - which of course are inflated too but to a lesser degree), cryptos could be a nice alternative to the national currency - and much more convenient than gold for trade purposes.

DRK looks interesting enough, but whether or not it shoots up and outrageous amount to $20, or even $100 by next year is largely irrelevant,

Darkcoin is providing a second option vs the monopoly of transparency in which other coins are in. This means that if someone wants their crypto deposits / crypto transactions to be more private they'll have to move over to DRK. The transparent market is at 100% right now while the more-private market is at near 0%. In terms of "market growth potential" what will happen should be pretty easy to figure out.

With a market cap of ~8bn (BTC+other alts) to 3mn (DARKcoin), the prospect of capital flowing toward the DRK side is "significant". Even if one per cent of the "transparent" market moves to the more private market, we're talking about 80mn USD boost that is there to share for DRK or other anon coins which may follow - and they will not be necessarily mutually exclusive (one could practice transferring money through 2-3 anon coins, implementing different solutions, for extra safety / privacy). Needless to say what may happen if tax authorities start to crack down on BTC. The "just 1%" may suddenly become several % - with a corresponding boost in value of the private coins.

I mean, from a market perspective, and with such prospects being there, even if the anon market is shared by 2-3-5 different coins in the long run, this is a 9-digit to 10-digit market (xxx millions to billions) that they will share between them. Current market cap of a few million USD may seem like a joke by then. With such fundamentals, who needs hype, or pump and dumps?

The same applies today. The market cap of anon coins is nearly identical with my prediction, and it is dominated by DRK (>50%), Bytecoin & clones and Bitcoin-based pumps & dumps or coins that are ...trying. I also predict this 1% will gradually be extended towards the 10% mark - but that will be slower in comparison to the 1% (that should be obvious).

The only piece of the puzzle left, to diversify into, are zero-proof coins - which can come in and claim superiority against mixing practices in Bitcoin & Bytecoin.

I do have some ANCs from the times when DRK and ANC were the only anon coins in existence (zerocash wasn't an option back then), so my hedge against DRK was ANC by necessity. ANC has been very low in price (given the coins in circulation) and has promised zerocash integration in early July... if that hedge also manages to blow up in price, well, ...I'll be damned...

[darkota]

Dark = market leader

Indisputibly so.  I consider dark to be shady, however.  I sold out of drk and moved to xmr for three primary reasons: (1) CN protocol allows me to actually control the size of my anonymity set, and I have confidence that the set will hold; not so drk.  (2) P&D/premine/ponzi factors are beyond my tolerance level in drk.  (3) Snake oil crypto claims raise my hackles.  I'm just not going to trust my life and treasure to drk' s protocols.  Great coin if you love forks, however.

I don't think anyone advocates xmr more strongly than I do.  I am taking my own medicine, and I don't want anyone else to get sick either.  It definitely benefits me if others adopt XMR, but I strongly believe that it will benefit them as well, as long as they don't own more than they can hold in strong hands.  

It isn't the leading coin with privacy claims, in terms of market cap.  It isn't the first cryptonote protocol coin.  It isn't the most user friendly coin by a nautical mile.  But it does have a balance of factors which convince me that it is the leading candidate to supply the net with private liquidity for years to come.  In areas where it is weak, it is good enough, and improving.  In areas where it is strong, it is distinguished from its competitors by the honesty and frankness of its development team, it's open-source ethos, its fair launch, its methodical, un-hyped progress, in a well-planned and prioritized process, and the size and growth of its hashing infrastructure.

I really do think that slow and steady can win this race.  It's already good enough for technically aware people to use, and it won't take long for it to be good enough for anyone who is comfortable with bitcoin today to use it.  How long it will take before it is suitable for mainstream use, I dare not venture -- years, I would say, since that is a very high bar of usability (think iPod).  But it has all it needs now to get there in due time.

Personally, I'm invested, to some degree or the other, in the whole anonymous market - so I don't have to worry so much about who wins and who doesn't. I'm well hedged so to speak.

There are fundamentals in place that I have analyzed in the DRK thread, with great precision - as to how the situation would evolve in terms of marketcaps and other anon coins that would join the party after DRK... That was ~4 months ago. The context of the discussion was about the need for marketing and promotion of DRK, where I said that the fundamentals of explosive growth in new markets will take care of everything - so no real need for promo/hype/spamming etc.

The general crypto boom is over. Those who saw 8000%+ profits from BTC in < 2 years were the lucky few. Who we be the Levi Strauss of the crypto era - a man who started a small business selling new-fanged denim jeans to the gold miners back in '49. Perhaps you've heard Levi's?

I think cryptos in general have a lot of potential. I mean most people don't even know what Bitcoin is, let alone altcoins. And, if you factor in that around three quarters of the planet live in countries with high inflation rate (not EUR, GBP, USD etc - which of course are inflated too but to a lesser degree), cryptos could be a nice alternative to the national currency - and much more convenient than gold for trade purposes.

DRK looks interesting enough, but whether or not it shoots up and outrageous amount to $20, or even $100 by next year is largely irrelevant,

Darkcoin is providing a second option vs the monopoly of transparency in which other coins are in. This means that if someone wants their crypto deposits / crypto transactions to be more private they'll have to move over to DRK. The transparent market is at 100% right now while the more-private market is at near 0%. In terms of "market growth potential" what will happen should be pretty easy to figure out.

With a market cap of ~8bn (BTC+other alts) to 3mn (DARKcoin), the prospect of capital flowing toward the DRK side is "significant". Even if one per cent of the "transparent" market moves to the more private market, we're talking about 80mn USD boost that is there to share for DRK or other anon coins which may follow - and they will not be necessarily mutually exclusive (one could practice transferring money through 2-3 anon coins, implementing different solutions, for extra safety / privacy). Needless to say what may happen if tax authorities start to crack down on BTC. The "just 1%" may suddenly become several % - with a corresponding boost in value of the private coins.

I mean, from a market perspective, and with such prospects being there, even if the anon market is shared by 2-3-5 different coins in the long run, this is a 9-digit to 10-digit market (xxx millions to billions) that they will share between them. Current market cap of a few million USD may seem like a joke by then. With such fundamentals, who needs hype, or pump and dumps?

The same applies today. The market cap of anon coins is nearly identical with my prediction, and it is dominated by DRK (>50%), Bytecoin & clones and Bitcoin-based pumps & dumps or coins that are ...trying. I also predict this 1% will gradually be extended towards the 10% mark - but that will be slower in comparison to the 1% (that should be obvious).

The only piece of the puzzle left, to diversify into, are zero-proof coins - which can come in and claim superiority against mixing practices in Bitcoin & Bytecoin.

I do have some ANCs from the times when DRK and ANC were the only anon coins in existence (zerocash wasn't an option back then), so my hedge of DRK was ANC by necessity. ANC has been very low in price (given the coins in circulation) and has promised zerocash integration in early July... if that hedge also manages to blow up in price, well, ...I'll be damned...

It's funny how you support a coin(Darkcoin) with a 50% instamine by the developers at launch..they didn't even bother making a new coin when they could of to get rid of the instamine because they hold most of that instamine themselves...Plus its masternodes are something that could always be compromised. Most masternodes are hosted on Amazon servers, and they can all be taken down, by DDOS attacks etc etc, thereby abolishing Darkcoin's "anonymity". Not to mention, Darkcoins anonymity stems from coinjoin, which itself is hardly anonymous, see here: http://www.coinjoinsudoku.com/advisory/

Don't get me wrong, I myself own 210 darkcoin(the most of any crypto I have), but I value it as a pump and dump only, as do most holding Darkcoin right now....it's 50% instamine and coinjoin anonymity based on human backed masternodes is just stupid....no other way to say it.

Even Zerocash's huge trust issue is a better anonymity alternative than Darkcoin.

[drawingthesun]

Am I right in thinking that every time Monero goes lower than what we expect. It'll encourage the price to go even lower?

The way I see it. Many people called a bottom of about 0.005 to 0.006. However now we're close to 0.003 - 0.004. People might start selling off because they are losing confidence that even people in this thread cannot predict the price.

I wouldn't be surprised if we hit the 0.002's again. Until the development branch incorporates a GUI it'll look like to the average investor that Boolberry is in fact gaining ground. I am certain Boolberry isn't gaining ground, the Monero team are working on what's important, but the average user or investor does not see this.

Most people are only interested in fluff. Hense Hal Finney's fears about a clone coin overtaking without being valid enough to warrent a takeover. Only coins with an order of magnitude leap in technology really warrant having an existance at all let alone overtaking a market leader.

I have great faith in Monero. If another Cryptonote coin takes over it'll be a realization of Half Finney's fears. Because the clone coins are not innovative enough to warrent a take over. My stand is simple; If Monero loses because of the marketing hype of Boolberry, I will get out of all CryptoNote and back into Bitcoin as it would be proof a CryptoNote coin cannot be a store of value. I will not have my wealth held hostage to the pump and dump of the alt coin world. I only invested in Monero because I saw it as being a true second coin to Bitcoin. Apart from Monero I have never dealt with alts. Even though I invested before rpeitila ever mentioned Monero I completely agree with his rational for investing.

Boolberry's slight modifications do not warrant destruction of a market leader. This is the same argument the Litecoin supporters came up with. The litecoin supporters said that Litecoin deserves to overtake Bitcoin because of the 4 times speed gain.

They didn't consider the disastrous precedent that would set. Because then the next coin to offer a slight improvement would have its argument that they should now overtake the market leader. This was the crux of Half Finney's argument. Only a coin overwhelming better should overtake Bitcoin. If anything less were to take over all confidence in crypto being a store of value would forever be lost.

Sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes I wrote this on my phone. :p

[aminorex]

Bummed at the tirade, especially #3   Would you be able to give some examples of that?

darkota covered it: masternodes and coinjoin. I see them as obfuscation misleading investors, not as meaningful security against the inevitable deanonymizing attack by a nation-state. certainly not something to which I can entrust the well-being of my family. it is probably fine for buying blacklisted herbs in liberal states, but that is not the brass ring.

with cn I am relying on a peer-reviewed implementation of a protocol with provable known characteristics.  spectral network analysis is its weakest point, and provides very little information if the coin is used properly.  it needs improvement but the path is clear (larger anonymity sets and i2p) and the infrastructure is being built even now. at that point it can serve the needs of serious customers.  even without, it already serves as a hedge on fungibility issues in transparent chains.

[AlexGR]

Don't get me wrong

You've said everything malicious/negative that you could think of in just a few sentences. Instamine, devs scammers / incompetent, broken anon, masternode fail, centralization, pump & dump, etc etc. Obviously the market is idiots and you are the smart guy. Or...

Unfortunately this is the internet, and there are armies of trolls hiding behind computer screens saying garbage..don't bother listening to them....trust me I'm a troll myself  on these forums....

...so given your admission you can rest assured I'm not getting you the "wrong" way.