rpietila Altcoin Observer

[canonsburg]

I think these are good points from dga and you, but I think the role of mining is being downplayed. Those who are in Crypto these days have complete lack of respect for an equitable Proof of Work and how important it is in the perceived value of a crypto currency. Bitcoin mining centralization is a serious problem that everyone should be criticizing, learning from and adapting to make it viable and useful for the common denominator. That is why Bitcoin is Proof of Work and not some random distribution through stakes or shares.

Look at LTC. The #1 reason it is failing or on a road to failure is its acceptance and adoption of mining centralization. Everything else is just a by-product of this phenomena, even the use-case debate is an offshoot of this.

PoW centralization and discrepancies will be reflected in a coin's perceived value and economies. It is a serious cancer. Getting away with it will not be duplicable like Bitcoin. It is basic human psychology.

Putting so much emphasis on mining is unnecessary to the long-term usefulness of a coin.

Yes, mining is important because that's how crypto ensure a "fair" distribution but this becomes less and less important as time goes on.

Almost all coins have diminishing coin emissions, either in the form of block halving, or the continuous decreasing award per block like XMR but eventually, all mining stops creating new coins and you are left mining the scraps of TX.

This means mining becomes less and less dominant as time goes on and the focus should be placed on the value such network has on facilitating transfer of value or storage of wealth.

Ideally for a miner, they would be able to mine forever, so you either want a coin with unending emission or you jump onto the next pump and dump, which XMR is neither of these.

[AlexGR]

Look at LTC. The #1 reason it is failing or on a road to failure is its acceptance and adoption of mining centralization. Everything else is just a by-product of this phenomena, even the use-case debate is an offshoot of this.

LTC / DOGE / PPC all lost big marketcaps in the last two-three months as DRK rose to top-3 / top-5 altcoin status and suddenly all of these started looking less "shiny". Coinmarketcap order tumbling shakes investor confidence (and vice versa => boosts investor confidence if a coin goes up in the ladder).

Quoting from an older post of mine, as I was observing the downtrend of top altcoins in realtime as DRK was overtaking them:

1    Bitcoin   $ 7,947,027,453   $ 619.09
2    Litecoin   $ 318,843,456   $ 11.05
3    Darkcoin   $ 52,733,769   $ 12.14
4    Nxt   $ 46,808,290   $ 0.046808
5    Peercoin   $ 45,744,698   $ 2.13

Dark is acting corrosively to the top altcoins.

Once DRK overtook DOGE, doge crashed from 100 satoshis to 50.

Ripple owner chose to sell.

PPC lost it's "next-to-LTC" position.

LTC prices are going down and down (0.021 -> 0.020 -> 0.019 -> 0.018 etc - as I had predicted it would happen). Instead of being BTC-on-steroids, it's losing money for BTC holders who bought it.

It's fair to say DRK is a catalyst. It's Platinum to Bitcoin's gold - but it doesn't need to be marketed as such. The "Dark" element can stand on its own pretty well combined with a good anonymity system.

BTC: The "gold"... The benchmark. The one constant that everyone goes to or uses as a measure. The property of gold is to be inert and resistant to corrosion for ages - as is Bitcoin. Altcoins come and go, altcoins evolve, Bitcoin stays the same and rules the market no matter what. Rich people hoard it, just like gold bars.

LTC: The "silver"... Silver is reflective and conductive (fast transfers). However it tarnishes over time and loses its "bling". It is also more abundant than gold (29m LTC vs 13m BTC). Silver coins are "brilliant" when exiting the mint but now we are in the tarnishing phase.

DRK: The "platinum"... Platinum is a catalyst and is used in specific applications for its catalytic properties. Doesn't corrode no matter what. It's also mined at much lesser quantities than gold (scarcer) at a ratio of 150 tons (platinum) to 2500 tons (gold) to 25000 tons (silver). Mining production and scarcity of DRK adequately positions it as the platinum. (4.4mn coins vs 13mn BTCs)

(warning: the above do not represent predictions for prices, just analogies of nature and cryptocurrencies)

[slapper]

Sure Alex.

A privacy focussed coin will rightfully take the place behind Bitcoin. The initial 50,000 Satoshi valuation of XMR when smooth opened XMR OTC thread was also due to DRK rising and people realizing the role of anon/priv currency. Folks had already spotted that in March, but some didn't jump on the DRK wagon due to the negative propaganda around it (not going to discuss those as they have been already ad nauseum).

@canonsburg

Also agree with your post. I was merely trying to lay down the rationale behind current valuation/trend.

[rpietila]

Please take the discussion elsewhere if it does not concern the following coins. Thank you

From now on, only the following coins may be mentioned in the thread:

BTC
XMR
NXT
FLT
BBR
NEM
XCurrency
Maidsafe
Skycoin
Siacoin

Discussion of the other coins belongs to other threads.

[Melbustus]

Please take the discussion elsewhere if it does not concern the following coins. Thank you

From now on, only the following coins may be mentioned in the thread:

BTC
XMR
NXT
FLT
BBR
NEM
XCurrency
Maidsafe
Skycoin
Siacoin

Discussion of the other coins belongs to other threads.

I think you may need to relax that rule with regard to LTC, seeing as the alt-crown is LTC's to lose. Thus all alt discussion is relevant to LTC.

[smooth]

From now on, only the following coins may be mentioned in the thread:

BTC
XMR
NXT
FLT
BBR
NEM
XCurrency
Maidsafe
Skycoin
Siacoin

Discussion of the other coins belongs to other threads.

No etherium?

[smooth]

I think these are good points from dga and you, but I think the role of mining is being downplayed. Those who are in Crypto these days have complete lack of respect for an equitable Proof of Work and how important it is in the perceived value of a crypto currency. Bitcoin mining centralization is a serious problem that everyone should be criticizing, learning from and adapting to make it viable and useful for the common denominator. That is why Bitcoin is Proof of Work and not some random distribution through stakes or shares.

Look at LTC. The #1 reason it is failing or on a road to failure is its acceptance and adoption of mining centralization. Everything else is just a by-product of this phenomena, even the use-case debate is an offshoot of this.

PoW centralization and discrepancies will be reflected in a coin's perceived value and economies. It is a serious cancer. Getting away with it will not be duplicable like Bitcoin. It is basic human psychology.

Putting so much emphasis on mining is unnecessary to the long-term usefulness of a coin.

Yes, mining is important because that's how crypto ensure a "fair" distribution but this becomes less and less important as time goes on.

Almost all coins have diminishing coin emissions, either in the form of block halving, or the continuous decreasing award per block like XMR but eventually, all mining stops creating new coins and you are left mining the scraps of TX.

This means mining becomes less and less dominant as time goes on and the focus should be placed on the value such network has on facilitating transfer of value or storage of wealth.

Ideally for a miner, they would be able to mine forever, so you either want a coin with unending emission or you jump onto the next pump and dump, which XMR is neither of these.

I think it is valid to make a slim distinction between the literal process of mining (securing the network, processing transactions, decentralization, etc.) and the distribution of mining rewards. The latter exists to incentivize the former. If a coin is not effectively delivering on the former, or is anticipated to fail to deliver in the future, then the something about the latter may be partially to blame, or the very concept of what you call "bitcoin proof of work" maybe flawed. It also may be valid to claim that mining rewards cost too much relative to the value of the activities they incentivize (though compared to what?)

Alternatives such as proof-of-stake and various other methods of distributed global consensus attempt to address this, although none has convincingly and compellingly delivered a working and widely trusted solution.

[rpietila]

From now on, only the following coins may be mentioned in the thread:

BTC
XMR
NXT
FLT
BBR
NEM
XCurrency
Maidsafe
Skycoin
Siacoin

Discussion of the other coins belongs to other threads.

No etherium?

It was voted a few pages ago. Just to remind that shitcoins should not be advertised. Only intention is to safeguard the quality discussion on the thread.

[dewdeded]

This botnet talk is really big exaggerated. There is not a single Malware-Report by AV/IT-Sec guys, about an XMR mining botnet.
Every new variation of malware is tracked and documented very closely, e.g. a report from yesterday is here http://blog.malcovery.com/blog/breaking-gameover-zeus-returns?utm_campaign=Gameover+Zeus+Return or just see http://malware.dontneedcoffee.com/ (+ blog roll) every new development in botting is documented and known

There is no announcement or advertisement for about an new mining/mining-modules/mining-plugin for Monero/CryptoNote (for the major botnet frameworks/software systems) on any major (russian) botnet/cybercrime forum. Not even an discussion thread or postings.

--> there is no big botnet mining

---> Hello FUDder!!!?s

[darkota]

This botnet talk is really big exaggerated. There is not a single Malware-Report by AV/IT-Sec guys, about an XMR mining botnet.
There is no announcement or advertisement for about an mining/mining-modules/mining-plugin for Monero/CryptoNote on any major (russian) botnet/cybercrime forum. Not even an discussion thread or postings.

--> there is no big botnet mining

Besides, 99% of botnets access 32 bit computers, which are very shitty....You can only hope to make 0.1 xmr per day or so.

Yes, I've tried mining it on my 2007 Dell and got 0.1 xmr

[dga]

This botnet talk is really big exaggerated. There is not a single Malware-Report by AV/IT-Sec guys, about an XMR mining botnet.
Every new variation of malware is tracked and documented very closely, e.g. a report from yesterday is here http://blog.malcovery.com/blog/breaking-gameover-zeus-returns?utm_campaign=Gameover+Zeus+Return or just see http://malware.dontneedcoffee.com/ (+ blog roll) every new development in botting is documented and known

There is no announcement or advertisement for about an new mining/mining-modules/mining-plugin for Monero/CryptoNote (for the major botnet frameworks/software systems) on any major (russian) botnet/cybercrime forum. Not even an discussion thread or postings.

--> there is no big botnet mining

---> Hello FUDder!!!?s

Don't be naive.  There are botnets, and there are botnets - there are always a few people at the forefront of monetizing before the techniques become commonplace.  From the monero IRC channel, for example:

Code:

14:16 < dfsdfg> gpu mining it is for kids :) real dudes uses botnets :D
14:22 < dfsdfg> Pending Balance: 17.574765835491 XMR
14:22 < dfsdfg> Total Paid: 26998.685819999999 XMR
14:22 < dfsdfg> Last Share Submitted: just now
14:22 < dfsdfg> Hash Rate: 573.16 KH/sec
14:22 < dfsdfg> Total Hashes Submitted: 651433558000
14:22 < dfsdfg> :P
14:23 < BlkHandAfricanos> dfsdfg: botnets solo mine
14:23 < dfsdfg> i use my own pool for mining
14:25 < dfsdfg> my botnet only for mining :) i cannot ddos
...
< dfsdfg> дa нe cдaмплю я ниxyя) y мeня вceгo oкoлo 3к нa кoшeлe вceгo в дaнный мoмeнт

[canonsburg]

I think these are good points from dga and you, but I think the role of mining is being downplayed. Those who are in Crypto these days have complete lack of respect for an equitable Proof of Work and how important it is in the perceived value of a crypto currency. Bitcoin mining centralization is a serious problem that everyone should be criticizing, learning from and adapting to make it viable and useful for the common denominator. That is why Bitcoin is Proof of Work and not some random distribution through stakes or shares.

Look at LTC. The #1 reason it is failing or on a road to failure is its acceptance and adoption of mining centralization. Everything else is just a by-product of this phenomena, even the use-case debate is an offshoot of this.

PoW centralization and discrepancies will be reflected in a coin's perceived value and economies. It is a serious cancer. Getting away with it will not be duplicable like Bitcoin. It is basic human psychology.

Putting so much emphasis on mining is unnecessary to the long-term usefulness of a coin.

Yes, mining is important because that's how crypto ensure a "fair" distribution but this becomes less and less important as time goes on.

Almost all coins have diminishing coin emissions, either in the form of block halving, or the continuous decreasing award per block like XMR but eventually, all mining stops creating new coins and you are left mining the scraps of TX.

This means mining becomes less and less dominant as time goes on and the focus should be placed on the value such network has on facilitating transfer of value or storage of wealth.

Ideally for a miner, they would be able to mine forever, so you either want a coin with unending emission or you jump onto the next pump and dump, which XMR is neither of these.

I think it is valid to make a slim distinction between the literal process of mining (securing the network, processing transactions, decentralization, etc.) and the distribution of mining rewards. The latter exists to incentivize the former. If a coin is not effectively delivering on the former, or is anticipated to fail to deliver in the future, then the something about the latter may be partially to blame, or the very concept of what you call "bitcoin proof of work" maybe flawed. It also may be valid to claim that mining rewards cost too much relative to the value of the activities they incentivize (though compared to what?)

Alternatives such as proof-of-stake and various other methods of distributed global consensus attempt to address this, although none has convincingly and compellingly delivered a working and widely trusted solution.

Yes, this is true but most people that complain about the existence of botnets or whatever are not concerned about the security via mining but rather the rewards gained through mining. If a botnet is mining, it is actually securing the network but people don't like it because they are "stealing" the rewards.

What I was implying is that for a coin to have a future, it needs to focus on its uses in real life. If in 4 years I can buy something with XMR, then it is a success, but if I can still mine it profitably in 4 years that is less a measure of success to me.

[dewdeded]

"Hash Rate: 573.16 KH/sec" that's 100 till 120 computers. That's a kid, with his Windows Skiddy-RAT or an computer pool admin at university or whatever.

What I wanted to point out is, there is no major botnet (> 20.000 bots) mining.
Because people talk like the really big and well known botnets - managed by professional east-european groups - are mining now. Not true.

[superresistant]

This botnet talk is really big exaggerated. There is not a single Malware-Report by AV/IT-Sec guys, about an XMR mining botnet.
Every new variation of malware is tracked and documented very closely, e.g. a report from yesterday is here http://blog.malcovery.com/blog/breaking-gameover-zeus-returns?utm_campaign=Gameover+Zeus+Return or just see http://malware.dontneedcoffee.com/ (+ blog roll) every new development in botting is documented and known
There is no announcement or advertisement for about an new mining/mining-modules/mining-plugin for Monero/CryptoNote (for the major botnet frameworks/software systems) on any major (russian) botnet/cybercrime forum. Not even an discussion thread or postings.
--> there is no big botnet mining
---> Hello FUDder!!!?s

Most botnets are on Win XP 32 bits machine, the hashrate delivered is incredibly low.

All cryptos have botnet, XMR is no exeption but it is wrong to think most of the hashrate is from botnets.

Now that the price** is lower, they are probably on an other crypto anyway.

**profitability

[Shrikez]

"Hash Rate: 573.16 KH/sec" that's 100 till 120 computers. That's a kid, with his Windows Skiddy-RAT or an computer pool admin at university or whatever.

What I wanted to point out is, there is no major botnet (> 20.000 bots) mining.
Because people talk like the really big and well known botnets - managed by professional east-european groups - are mining now. Not true.

I think your math may be off a little.

No single PC will deliver 4 to 6 kh/s.

I do around 6.8 kh/s with 16 x 280x in four rigs.

It is not really important just thought I'd clarify. That said, hashrate and difficulty have been going down considerably.

Yay I suppose.

[Este Nuno]

How does the CryptoNight algo compare to something like X11/13/15 when used on typical botnets? Is it better suited for botnets than those algos?

[digicoin]

I already said botnet is exaggerated by DRK liars. My laptop Windows 64-bit 2 core i5 delivers 45-50 H/s when idle and 30 h/s if I am working on it.

My core i7 Linux PC 4 cores delivers 200 H/s using Wolf miner

It is just a simple example to see how slow a botnet-controlled computer is.

[Este Nuno]

I already said botnet is exaggerated by DRK liars. My laptop Windows 64-bit 2 core i5 delivers 45-50 H/s when idle and 30 h/s if I am working on it.

My core i7 Linux PC 4 cores delivers 200 H/s using Wolf miner

It is just a simple example to see how slow a botnet-controlled computer is.

On the other hand that makes the above claim of 574 kilohashes all the more impressive and indicative of a large network mining operation.

[dga]

I already said botnet is exaggerated by DRK liars. My laptop Windows 64-bit 2 core i5 delivers 45-50 H/s when idle and 30 h/s if I am working on it.

My core i7 Linux PC 4 cores delivers 200 H/s using Wolf miner

It is just a simple example to see how slow a botnet-controlled computer is.

On the other hand that makes the above claim of 574 kilohashes all the more impressive and indicative of a large network mining operation.

It's probably 5000 computers.

[rpietila]

All cryptos have botnet, XMR is no exeption but it is wrong to think most of the hashrate is from botnets.

Botnets are a limited resource, and their owner tries to make the best use of it, just like the owner of any other resource.

(Otherwise you would say schools are evil, because they are often funded by governments that utilize stolen resources.)

Now that the price is low, they are probably on an other crypto anyway.

What matters is of course not the price, but the price/difficulty ratio, but you knew it.