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Author Topic: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond  (Read 34881 times)
zefir
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October 31, 2012, 07:29:19 PM
 #181

[...]
Since I'm not making a full buyback currently the damage of making some payments with incomplete data is limited, and as mentioned I'm giving more time until doing even that. But if people prefer that I wait even longer I'm fine with that.

I'd support waiting a little bit more (say end of this year, just in case Mayan were right Wink), since my latest CSV is outdated and I would need to guess the the number of bonds I hold. Starting payments now based on estimates will just double the work in case Nefario decides to provide the data some day.

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November 02, 2012, 01:43:35 AM
 #182

I think we need to start preparing for the very real possibility that I may not be getting the data from GLBSE. So:

1. If you haven't sent a claim to me yet, now is the time.

2. I propose that if nothing happens within ~2 weeks, I will start paying out accumulated and future coupons according to the information I currently have. Payments for unclaimed bonds will go towards a reserve fund, which will be used either to partially compensate missing bondholders when the data is obtained, or eventually donated to an agreed-upon charity.
[/quote

I know I sent you my claim but is it possible for you maybe to post a list of those that have so we know you have our information?

Naelr

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November 02, 2012, 09:39:45 AM
 #183

I think we need to start preparing for the very real possibility that I may not be getting the data from GLBSE. So:

1. If you haven't sent a claim to me yet, now is the time.

2. I propose that if nothing happens within ~2 weeks, I will start paying out accumulated and future coupons according to the information I currently have. Payments for unclaimed bonds will go towards a reserve fund, which will be used either to partially compensate missing bondholders when the data is obtained, or eventually donated to an agreed-upon charity.
I know I sent you my claim but is it possible for you maybe to post a list of those that have so we know you have our information?

Naelr
There are a few issues with that, I'll work on a hash-based list either tomorrow or in ~1.5 weeks. In any case I will make a test payment before any real payments, and the sentiment currently seems to be towards not acting on my own records yet. And FWIW I got your claim.

Edit: Or today. Here is a list of SHA-256 hashes of "EMAIL ADDRESS AMOUNT" (without quotations). For example if your email is a@b.c, address is 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa and amount is 50 bonds it will be the hash of "a@b.c 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa 50", which is 54ec5b1d82bff5df257a88f1cc38ac1ecea55d8a98fe3bbe191e9375285c5274.

In one case I used the forum username rather than email address. For people who have mentioned several numbers in their claim, I used one of the numbers.

There are also some dummy hashes to conceal the actual number of claims (disclosing it has privacy and security implications).

This list will not be updated frequently.

(Removed on Nov 27 2012 as a privacy measure)

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November 02, 2012, 11:16:19 PM
 #184

Meni,

I appreciate everything your trying to do... and I found my hash so thank you for spending the time going through that I am sure it was a bit of a pain in the butt.

Naelr

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November 03, 2012, 04:05:56 PM
 #185

Meni,

I appreciate everything your trying to do... and I found my hash so thank you for spending the time going through that I am sure it was a bit of a pain in the butt.

Naelr
It wasn't too bad, once I got the data in a spreadsheet most of the hashing work was automated. (I did the concatenation in Excel, generated some random numbers in Mathematica, and wrote a small C# app to hash each entry.)

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November 07, 2012, 03:09:55 AM
 #186

Tomorrow = 1 week..... counting the days!!!!!  Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink

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Meni Rosenfeld
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November 15, 2012, 01:27:17 PM
 #187

I remind everyone to send their claims to my email: glbse at menirosenfeld dot com (if they have not already done so). I still doubt I will get the data from GLBSE, meaning a direct claim could be the only way to get payment.

Also note that as time goes by, it's likely the signal to noise ratio in the claims will worsen, so claims submitted from now on will be subject to more scrutiny, and soon I will stop accepting claims at all.

Since acting by GLBSE data will be by far superior, if available, to direct claims, I will wait some more before making real payments. I might make a test payment soon.

Also, either way it looks like not all outstanding bonds will be claimed. I propose that a bit of the difference will be paid out as a bonus to bondholders, and the rest will be donated to one or several charities. Some possibilities include:

The Singularity Institute
The Bitcoin Foundation

Any other suggestions / opinions on previous suggestions? Smaller noteworthy projects can be considered too.

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November 16, 2012, 10:53:44 AM
 #188

Also, either way it looks like not all outstanding bonds will be claimed. I propose that a bit of the difference will be paid out as a bonus to bondholders, and the rest will be donated to one or several charities. Some possibilities include:

The Singularity Institute
The Bitcoin Foundation

Any other suggestions / opinions on previous suggestions? Smaller noteworthy projects can be considered too.

Seconded, in a rather tardy fashion.

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November 16, 2012, 06:01:00 PM
 #189

I did research into a ton of securities on GLBSE.  I owned a ton of different securities on GLBSE.  My strategy was to get some of everything that looked legit.

I may have had some PureMining when it closed.  I may not have.  I honestly can't remember.  The fact that I am subscribed to the thread leads me to believe that I had some.  (I subscribed to all the threads I had assets in.)

But it sounds to me like you're going to punish me for not remembering.  So how do you think I should proceed?

Do I make a claim now, and just make something up?  ...only to be called a liar later when it's not 100% accurate.

Or do I just risk that maybe I sold all my PureMining and don't remember?  ...and let everyone else jack my stuff.


Cheers.



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November 17, 2012, 04:28:11 PM
 #190

But it sounds to me like you're going to punish me for not remembering.  So how do you think I should proceed?
How do you think I should proceed? The GLBSE shutdown was completely botched. Data about asset holders is withheld from issuers for no apparent reason. Even something as simple as mailing asset holders with their up-to-date portfolio - which would solve problems such as yours, which is undoubtedly quite common - hasn't been done. The double-payment thing was simply idiotic. Weeks have passed without any communication.

It is not clear that the data will ever be given. Without the data the options are fairly limited, and while we're waiting we get nonsense like this popping up. Referring to what I'm trying to do as "punishing" you is unfair.

Anyway, to answer your question - what you should do is send me an email with as much information as you can (approximate last amount, approximate highest ever held amount, how much do you usually invest into each of these things, whether you tend to hold or frequently trade, etc.)

Do I make a claim now, and just make something up?  ...only to be called a liar later when it's not 100% accurate.
Don't make things up. As mentioned, even if you really can't recall anything about PureMining in particular, information about your general trading habits are useful. It doesn't need to be 100% accurate.

Or do I just risk that maybe I sold all my PureMining and don't remember?  ...and let everyone else jack my stuff.
I'm making some effort to screen potentially fraudulent claims. Unclaimed bonds will go to charity so you can assume your choices are to try to claim or to forfeit to charity. You can also give input about your preferred charities. I had the idea to use some of the excess as bonus to claimants but now I'm not sure it's a good idea.

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November 19, 2012, 07:26:16 AM
 #191

But it sounds to me like you're going to punish me for not remembering.  So how do you think I should proceed?
How do you think I should proceed? The GLBSE shutdown was completely botched. Data about asset holders is withheld from issuers for no apparent reason. Even something as simple as mailing asset holders with their up-to-date portfolio - which would solve problems such as yours, which is undoubtedly quite common - hasn't been done. The double-payment thing was simply idiotic. Weeks have passed without any communication.

It is not clear that the data will ever be given. Without the data the options are fairly limited, and while we're waiting we get nonsense like this popping up. Referring to what I'm trying to do as "punishing" you is unfair.

Anyway, to answer your question - what you should do is send me an email with as much information as you can (approximate last amount, approximate highest ever held amount, how much do you usually invest into each of these things, whether you tend to hold or frequently trade, etc.)

Do I make a claim now, and just make something up?  ...only to be called a liar later when it's not 100% accurate.
Don't make things up. As mentioned, even if you really can't recall anything about PureMining in particular, information about your general trading habits are useful. It doesn't need to be 100% accurate.

Or do I just risk that maybe I sold all my PureMining and don't remember?  ...and let everyone else jack my stuff.
I'm making some effort to screen potentially fraudulent claims. Unclaimed bonds will go to charity so you can assume your choices are to try to claim or to forfeit to charity. You can also give input about your preferred charities. I had the idea to use some of the excess as bonus to claimants but now I'm not sure it's a good idea.

The fact that he has paid out a ton of BTC to settle balances leads me to believe it's not a scam.  I believe he's either incompetent and it really is taking him this long to code it all, or he's under pressure from an outside entity to delay things.

After he's been given ample time (3 months?  6 months?)  All the asset issuers should file a class action lawsuit against Nefario and we'd wait until that was completed before giving up and screwing everyone over that doesn't have a bitcointalk account.  In theory such a lawsuit would be used to compel Nefario to divulge the database required to operate our issues, or at least to force him to finish up whatever programming he has to do in order to complete the shutdown.

Think about what a real company would do that had real shares in the wild if say, the NYSE shutdown and refused to give up the info... You really think they'd fall back to a first come, first served claim system?  That's just asking for trouble.

In the meantime, all these assets should be continuing business as usual.  After all, not much should have changed, right?  Their shareholders can't swap shares.  Contracts can't be changed... I can't think of much else that would stop any of the issuers from just piling up dividends for a few months?

Heck, even after GLBSE releases the lists, I'm still going to have to pile up dividends for any unclaimed shares, just in case they're late to the game and realize 6 months down the road that GLBSE went poof.  It's called fiduciary duty.

Not targeting you specifically, I'm seeing a lot of assets doing this claim system thing...  Any issuer that actually goes through with the claims system process is just going to open themselves up to a shareholder/bondholder lawsuit later.  I'm worried about you guys!


I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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November 19, 2012, 10:37:23 AM
 #192

The fact that he has paid out a ton of BTC to settle balances leads me to believe it's not a scam.
I don't think it's a scam either. But as is known in the traditional world and as we've seen in Bitcoin, scammers also pay out some amount.

I believe he's either incompetent
I haven't spoken much publicly but for a long time I've been very critical of GLBSE, both with the concept of having it as a centralized service and with how specifically it was run by Nefario. Which is why I'm involved in the colored coins project (plug: I've completed so far 2 chapters on a paper about the subject.)

and it really is taking him this long to code it all, or he's under pressure from an outside entity to delay things.
I'm sure code has nothing to do with it, if his intentions are basically good it's being held up on the legal front.

After he's been given ample time (3 months?  6 months?)
Are people really willing to wait that long? This isn't rhetorical, if more people agree with your proposal I'd like to hear it. (A lawsuit will also take an undetermined amount of time in the months or years)

All the asset issuers should file a class action lawsuit against Nefario and we'd wait until that was completed
...
Think about what a real company would do that had real shares in the wild if say, the NYSE shutdown and refused to give up the info...
A real company would need upwards of $10M of valuation and a battery of lawyers before making an IPO. If something bad happened they'd have the resources and infrastructure to handle it (and I doubt the solution will look anything like collecting shareholder data and paying them directly). GLBSE was supposed to be a more lightweight platform and we all signed up for something which allows more entrepreneurship but is devoid of some of the comfort of the traditional system.

The first step would be to find a lawyer who can look at you with a straight face when explaining the case, and even after that's done I for one can't afford the $$$ (possibly more than the market cap of PureMining) to pay lawyers to work on it. If a class action were to happen I would however support it.

before giving up and screwing everyone over that doesn't have a bitcointalk account.
PureMining has two manifestations - this forum thread and http://bitcoinpuremining.com/. Both solicit claims. Someone who bought PureMining bonds without knowing about either of these has quite frankly screwed himself by not having a clue what he's investing in. Likewise if he didn't care enough about his holdings to bother to check these places when the GLBSE problems unfolded.

Sure, you can argue that this is all happening very quickly (in traditional terms) and someone may not be in the loop of what's happening. In a perfect world someone could "buy and forget" and be sure that he would need no further action to take what is his. But this is not a perfect world, you have to draw the line somewhere - I don't like it and I don't think it's right, but it's the least wrong thing we can do with the hand we were dealt.

Keep in mind that unclaimed bonds will be donated one way or another - while it is not ideal to "volunteer" someone to donating, most people could use being a bit more charitable anyway, so this is not a total loss.

I believe this approach is supported by the Halakha. If someone loses something and has given up the search and the hope of finding it, it is considered "Hefker" (abandoned) and can be kept by its finder. This appears to describe people who haven't filed claims for their bonds.

You really think they'd fall back to a first come, first served claim system?
I'm not doing a first come, first served claim system. Any reasonable claim is credited. Of course, as time goes by the claims become inherently less reasonable. In case the claims surpass outstanding bonds, I'll probably scale it down. But the actual situation is that so far the amount of claimed bonds is significantly less than the number outstanding.

In the meantime, all these assets should be continuing business as usual.
Bonds aren't defined by their "business" but by their coupon payments. The contingent fact that I do hedge these bonds with a still-running mining arrangement is irrelevant. Nothing is usual while coupons are not being paid.

I can't think of much else that would stop any of the issuers from just piling up dividends for a few months?
While coupons are piled up people are not being paid what they were promised. Also, the longer I wait the greater the chance that the coins will be lost or stolen, which I will have to pay out of pocket.

Heck, even after GLBSE releases the lists, I'm still going to have to pile up dividends for any unclaimed shares, just in case they're late to the game and realize 6 months down the road that GLBSE went poof.  It's called fiduciary duty.
I'm open to input but in the end you'll do what you think is right, and I'll do mine. To me it is clear that traditional duties may or may not apply; I am not convinced that holding on to funds indefinitely is the one true pretender to the fiduciary duty throne.

The PureMining OP is quite long, and one of the reasons is that I wanted to address several contingencies. I should have spent much more time thinking and writing about those contingency plans; unfortunately, I considered a GLBSE shutdown distant enough to only warrant the following provision:
Quote
If GLBSE where the asset is traded ceases operation, an effort will be made to either call the bonds or replace them with a privately issued equivalent.
Strictly speaking, I could do whatever I see fit and still abide by the letter of contract. Of course, not everything would abide by the spirit of the contract; and I believe my proposal best captures the spirit.

Not targeting you specifically, I'm seeing a lot of assets doing this claim system thing...
If there are several things I hate, one of them is being caught in the crossfire. On one front I have people complaining about issuers doing nothing, and on the other about issuers "doing this claim system thing". You can't please everyone.

Any issuer that actually goes through with the claims system process is just going to open themselves up to a shareholder/bondholder lawsuit later.  I'm worried about you guys!
Thank you for your concern but I very much doubt someone who didn't bother to file a claim would bother filing a lawsuit. If such a lawsuit would go through there is something very wrong indeed with the world.

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November 19, 2012, 06:56:56 PM
 #193

Your points are all good.

I hope that everyone can be patient.  Smiley



I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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November 20, 2012, 04:53:11 PM
 #194

Rumor has it that Nefario has started sending out asset holder data.

I haven't received anything yet but I contacted Nefario and hope to receive the list of PureMining bondholders soon.

I'm also making some progress towards a technical means to disperse payments once I have that list.

By the way, even with the official list I suspect there will be unclaimed bonds, and we haven't picked the charities yet. (I think we can add Bitcoin100 to the list.)

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November 20, 2012, 06:13:04 PM
 #195

Rumor has it that Nefario has started sending out asset holder data.

I haven't received anything yet but I contacted Nefario and hope to receive the list of PureMining bondholders soon.

I'm also making some progress towards a technical means to disperse payments once I have that list.

By the way, even with the official list I suspect there will be unclaimed bonds, and we haven't picked the charities yet. (I think we can add Bitcoin100 to the list.)

Unless you're wanting to shut down, we have your technical means: https://btct.co/  Smiley

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November 21, 2012, 05:42:04 AM
 #196

Rumor has it that Nefario has started sending out asset holder data.

I haven't received anything yet but I contacted Nefario and hope to receive the list of PureMining bondholders soon.

I'm also making some progress towards a technical means to disperse payments once I have that list.

By the way, even with the official list I suspect there will be unclaimed bonds, and we haven't picked the charities yet. (I think we can add Bitcoin100 to the list.)
Unless you're wanting to shut down, we have your technical means: https://btct.co/  Smiley
Thanks, but my days of issuing assets on centralized Bitcoin-based exchanges are over. The payment will be with a static list until I can migrate to colored coins (or possibly Open Transactions).

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November 21, 2012, 06:10:21 PM
 #197

I am happy to announce I have received a list of bondholders from Nefario.

However, the problems are not over yet. This list is very incomplete - only 6943 claimed bonds out of 15566 (16000 if you count those held by myself). Also, while it is overall consistent with the direct claims I received, there are some surprising omissions.

I will list here the Bitcoin addresses I received and the corresponding number of bonds (I'm not hashing or anything since this will be public knowledge anyway once I start sending payments); please verify that the address you submitted to GLBSE appears here. If it does not appear, or if there is a major discrepancy in the number of bonds, please let me know (email is still glbse at menirosenfeld dot com, PM can work too) and verify that your GLBSE claim has been accepted.

Code:
1MrSjifA8DEaN7Uhb4sBk3F8Kys8HeENmW 1723
15NVXrMhqrkyssA6MowDLahjhhhELjGBoX 926
1Aaza38CfWEo1fJMmVU5xjqbgpQBbw5n2U 560
1GzhK1qx4vTkLhCBwUqaMhvjvDnryjWDEi 512
1BMjJkPZu1dS4ePpomL418UyL92ovhR2z8 350
1HXxASKNBBt5s1dtEmBk85aFQB2iyn8Wik 240
1Bt5qiQyVivwfGEMdGRjnsvu1xBZUGfHgg 229
1F7bofbRqPDVU29Yo89sRtn215H1cyR3Sg 210
1JJPByDjFKNV6Wz7RSCvqSFmnRjcT6ZeiW 201
14vx31xnEx7bTixLPNC2PEAh6bpJms72yv 170
1Ni9fi2P9TiCEdQWc9pkhepPnXYZNRZEXP 154
17RbEbXTtijSdVssMSJeHiLKe2KxE4LYQ3 113
1VzWC6kVDje3tD81CbMtmtLwYzm9BiedD 102
1GSyaokLr4h5k3YECiHXQm6CyN9EMqBdbG 100
1CWmZPpGVnnjhxN7qvpDqXNZpBEA2hH4D3 81
1MR3e419f3B4AVR7zHQVh83Gwyj5okkocr 81
1DRd1waDtV9BJZzQdaMuUZ5jN2Ba56Ehg1 75
1GtDesYuZ674iKzygzrvq4xQ3w3NSSyTUT 74
1FVwrwLeRgZx1XKJTisyT6EQsvUHDoyHt6 70
18kSLPHCzavfWYPzzqVyDA1Fdca238MnYV 70
12NcPjtX6wjYLfmsTYvuTdXYwZ91tE1GFw 53
17JRP2GPXCxCRLSYAKxDPbED5LhQdjn33Y 50
15Ld5XoModQeRRSS6HAPDvydhbJJPDHMVr 50
1CK97PGvm46N51f6XUPxEa1SQLi8AyfCSq 50
15Fd4zjH3MNrQWPrEAkLeb5rQcz1LBfFY6 49
176GqXdxhb9UeJLSKNSrCPB4B9vHnV45QB 48
16Ec1kPD5xk716daQ4ZvJd9XyjdPsdwJJw 42
1KmAm1QMxcZsKALpcJ3FABTdq2NTwwfggb 35
19KDwaNX9xk6aHaBzt2DjZRk6wLj4vAtfF 35
17Gt94xaBPy6KrNWnDRsbmtzdnBVnbtBzz 30
1NXgMFazsNcCmnNK7aYZz38NEqj3SQ9JWk 30
1GbVRYeWrFT9raMhuUw9LuzaTZeKDBC2tD 30
1GaoANJv9tcC7SEMfwfeWnLyK8LtrYAxrb 29
1Q8P38y9Fd4Xs5vkFm4yrbUf4K2yiS4kHc 28
1Prbdh3PFoK4hJS5rdx2S5SA4wQswgvJEb 27
1Hcu6MHKrkkexrfJNDGHRbKpJ9kofVUM1U 26
1BmDkwMccKjFzomVJpkF3ciepdq1kgQjmR 24
1NWBTs8LK7kJUDKe31uncF7nWpaUH14AMg 22
12EaoJCa5Hsuzn7aLjhSAGARvkDcM33cya 22
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camolist
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November 21, 2012, 10:24:49 PM
 #198

1HXxASKNBBt5s1dtEmBk85aFQB2iyn8Wik   240


 Cool


can confirm at least in this case info is accurate

burnside
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November 21, 2012, 11:04:32 PM
 #199

I'm not in there.  I'm hoping it's because they sold, I had a lot of sell orders up the couple days before GLBSE shutdown. 

Wish Nefario would let us see what we had at closing time...

I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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November 21, 2012, 11:09:28 PM
 #200

Wow, I have over 50 Shares!

How cool is that. I had claimed 8 Shares per mail, thought I had bought more since my last documentation, but that is where so many.

Happy!  Grin

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