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Author Topic: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond  (Read 34938 times)
Meni Rosenfeld
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November 22, 2012, 02:05:02 PM
 #201

Nefario said this in his blog:

Quote
These lists are not 100% complete, users who have not claimed their GLBSE account, and users who have not returned the double payment of bitcoin have not been included.
So it could be that some of the omissions are for people who have received a double payment and did not return it.

I wonder if people who have not received a double payment (meaning, haven't received any payment at all) have also been omitted.

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November 22, 2012, 03:51:37 PM
 #202

as for me: I am included even though I have not received a payment. To be honest I didnt expect this to happen and am quite happy about the sudden resolution!

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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November 22, 2012, 06:20:10 PM
 #203

My address is there & seems the number of bonds i have is also correct.
No way to know, as nefario not allowing any one to download their own history.
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November 23, 2012, 08:55:15 AM
 #204

Nefario said this in his blog:

Quote
These lists are not 100% complete, users who have not claimed their GLBSE account, and users who have not returned the double payment of bitcoin have not been included.
So it could be that some of the omissions are for people who have received a double payment and did not return it.

I wonder if people who have not received a double payment (meaning, haven't received any payment at all) have also been omitted.

I was in the list and I didn't receive any payment. Though, I only had some 0.000x bitcoins there at the time of the close up, so he probably rounded it to zero.
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November 23, 2012, 11:22:46 PM
 #205

I can also confirm my amount and address is correct Smiley
my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?

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November 23, 2012, 11:41:42 PM
 #206

for anyone interested I tallied up all of the unpaid dividends Smiley

So as you can see there is 0.0158254174 per share Smiley as of 9:56 AM 12/5/12 Eastern Standard Time

Work
0.0006574516
0.0007123389
0.0007160227
0.0007084305
0.0007131889
0.0006747238
0.0007071186
0.0006458944
0.0007095636
0.0007414229
0.000670989
0.000648254
0.0007318203
0.0007537936
0.0007201459
0.000732256
0.0007163788
0.0007874637
0.0007542422
0.0006876202
0.000816775
0.0008195228
0.0006589964
0.0006433350 (unpaid)
0.0006323053 (unpaid)
0.0003300744 (unpaid)
0.0003178960 (unpaid)

Total
0.0184080245

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Meni Rosenfeld
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November 24, 2012, 04:18:07 PM
 #207

Nefario acknowledged that some omissions are due to problems unrelated to any of those mentioned, and says he will send a more complete list at an unspecified time.

my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?
I will continue paying coupons of 1MH/s per bond for a while. When the ELE (extrapolated lifetime earnings with current difficulty) was about 1 BTC the bond traded around 0.4 BTC (40% of the ELE), so when I eventually do a buyback (likely after ASICs have stabilized) I think a fair price will be 50% of the ELE at that time (this is subject to change).

I intend to relaunch this bond as a colored coin, and the pricing will be such that people could use their earnings from the buyback to reinvest in an even greater amount of the new issue.

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November 24, 2012, 08:10:49 PM
 #208

Nefario acknowledged that some omissions are due to problems unrelated to any of those mentioned, and says he will send a more complete list at an unspecified time.

my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?
I will continue paying coupons of 1MH/s per bond for a while. When the ELE (extrapolated lifetime earnings with current difficulty) was about 1 BTC the bond traded around 0.4 BTC (40% of the ELE), so when I eventually do a buyback (likely after ASICs have stabilized) I think a fair price will be 50% of the ELE at that time (this is subject to change).

I intend to relaunch this bond as a colored coin, and the pricing will be such that people could use their earnings from the buyback to reinvest in an even greater amount of the new issue.

What can you tell us about the colored coins?  Are they what OT should be?  (distributed trade-able shares?)
 

I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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November 24, 2012, 08:32:44 PM
 #209

Nefario acknowledged that some omissions are due to problems unrelated to any of those mentioned, and says he will send a more complete list at an unspecified time.

my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?
I will continue paying coupons of 1MH/s per bond for a while. When the ELE (extrapolated lifetime earnings with current difficulty) was about 1 BTC the bond traded around 0.4 BTC (40% of the ELE), so when I eventually do a buyback (likely after ASICs have stabilized) I think a fair price will be 50% of the ELE at that time (this is subject to change).

I intend to relaunch this bond as a colored coin, and the pricing will be such that people could use their earnings from the buyback to reinvest in an even greater amount of the new issue.

What can you tell us about the colored coins?  Are they what OT should be?  (distributed trade-able shares?)
The short answer is yes; the longer answer is https://bitcoil.co.il/BitcoinX.pdf (work in progress). killerstorm is leading the development effort of implementing the concept.

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Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems (thread, summary)  |   PureMining - Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Meni Rosenfeld
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November 25, 2012, 12:25:03 PM
 #210

I have made a test payment of 1 satoshi per bond for bondholders appearing in Nefario's first list. The transaction is f925b5c30a5df8481ec2afa3159fca7e1f55263b92d1abe7dbdeaf31d65330c8. (Edit: You can read up on my process here.)

Within ~1 day I will pay to these bondholders the coupons that have been accumulated from blocks 201935 to 209327, a total of 0.0164844138 BTC per bond. Afterward I will wait for further input from Nefario before proceeding.

Bondholders who are not currently on the list shouldn't worry much. As far as I know the errors in this list are only of omission, so it should be easy to pay the coupons for these blocks to additional holders as they become known to me. If Nefario fails to provide a complete list, I will consider including credible claims even without official confirmation.


There were a total of 16,000 issued bonds of which 434 were held by me (this was a result of working around GLBSE's UI limitations). Rather than paying the coupons for these bonds to myself (which would be silly), I am updating the records to acknowledge 15566 outstanding bonds.


As always I take my reputation very seriously and I would like to clarify how some issues that were raised with other assets relate to me:
1. My obligations are not conditioned on any losses I may suffer or have suffered as a result of the GLBSE shutdown or anything else. The bond is about risk allocation wrt the future of mining, not financing; my mining operation is still running, even without it I have enough assets to back the bond, and even without those I'd work to pay off my debt. If some bondholders cannot be identified I will still pay someone (typically some charitable organization), I will not keep any funds myself as they are not mine to keep.
2. I see no reason and am not intending at this point to lawyer up in relation to PureMining. The scale of PureMining was deliberately small enough to make it legally uninteresting, and I can pay up just fine according to the described plan without any intervention.

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November 25, 2012, 01:19:32 PM
 #211

As always I take my reputation very seriously and I would like to clarify how some issues that were raised with other assets relate to me:
1. My obligations are not conditioned on any losses I may suffer or have suffered as a result of the GLBSE shutdown or anything else. The bond is about risk allocation, not financing; my mining operation is still running, even without it I have enough assets to back the bond, and even without those I'd work to pay off my debt. If some bondholders cannot be identified I will still pay someone (typically some charitable organization), I will not keep any funds myself as they are not mine to keep.

I had assumed this to hold true for you, although the same could not be said for some most other bond issuers. I think you have managed your bond - even in the face of the shutdown of an exchange - in an entirely admirable manner, ensuring that your bond-holders are not out of pocket.

When I started to invest on GLBSE I made a "risk vs reward" list of bonds. I invested mainly in Puremining bonds because they were the lowest risk bond on my list and still provided a reasonable reward (ASICs notwithstanding). I'm quite happy about my choice.

Hmmm. I just realised I should have included GLBSE in my "risk vs reward" calculations.


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November 25, 2012, 01:48:18 PM
 #212

I had assumed this to hold true for you, although the same could not be said for some most other bond issuers. I think you have managed your bond - even in the face of the shutdown of an exchange - in an entirely admirable manner, ensuring that your bond-holders are not out of pocket.

When I started to invest on GLBSE I made a "risk vs reward" list of bonds. I invested mainly in Puremining bonds because they were the lowest risk bond on my list and still provided a reasonable reward (ASICs notwithstanding). I'm quite happy about my choice.
Thank you for the positive comments.

I think now I'm "allowed" to disclose that I think the traded price for PureMining was a bit high, even assuming 100% probability of being paid as described.

Hmmm. I just realised I should have included GLBSE in my "risk vs reward" calculations.
GLBSE risk is something which I have always considered but always told myself, "come on, it won't really happen" (and I assumed a GLBSE shutdown would be cleaner). I can say the same about many other things lately... It's time the Bitcoin community realizes that risky counterparties are risky.

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November 26, 2012, 12:29:44 AM
 #213

Nefario acknowledged that some omissions are due to problems unrelated to any of those mentioned, and says he will send a more complete list at an unspecified time.

my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?
I will continue paying coupons of 1MH/s per bond for a while. When the ELE (extrapolated lifetime earnings with current difficulty) was about 1 BTC the bond traded around 0.4 BTC (40% of the ELE), so when I eventually do a buyback (likely after ASICs have stabilized) I think a fair price will be 50% of the ELE at that time (this is subject to change).

I intend to relaunch this bond as a colored coin, and the pricing will be such that people could use their earnings from the buyback to reinvest in an even greater amount of the new issue.

What can you tell us about the colored coins?  Are they what OT should be?  (distributed trade-able shares?)
The short answer is yes; the longer answer is https://bitcoil.co.il/BitcoinX.pdf (work in progress). killerstorm is leading the development effort of implementing the concept.

Looks great to me.  Appreciate the info!

I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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November 26, 2012, 01:29:36 PM
 #214

Coupon payment for blocks 201935 to 209327 was sent to bondholders in Nefario's first list. 0.0164844138 BTC per bond were paid to 6943 claimed bonds, for a total of 114.45128549 BTC. Transaction is f69173bf19362f7aff12081e41f119fd30b4e43bb39f837c1274e67bedf4915d. The change address is 1JPFCUtH2gcADar9xi3A9vStTr9Ba5XKvy. (Note: One payment address was changed at the signed request of its owner.)

Now we wait.

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November 26, 2012, 01:48:49 PM
 #215

Thank you so much.

Meni, you made my day. The first share payout since the Mess started. What a relive.

Thank you.

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November 26, 2012, 01:56:08 PM
 #216

Thank you so much.

Meni, you made my day. The first share payout since the Mess started. What a relive.

Thank you.
You're welcome. I guess I made some kind of record then Smiley

Sadly the problems are far from over as most bondholders still haven't been paid. I hope Nefario can provide more data soon.

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November 27, 2012, 02:17:17 AM
 #217

I agree! kudos and thank you!

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November 27, 2012, 05:14:57 PM
 #218

Meni, just wanted to send massive kudos your way too.

My GLBSE investment was about 90% PUREMINING bonds, as other mentioned chosen because of the nice risk/reward ratio.
You've been extremely correct and helpful in our communication since the GLBSE crash.
I am very happy (and suprised) that this all ended up almost without any loss for myself, mainly due to your stance.
I got my dividends already (100% since the GLBSE closure) and am really not worried about where the bonds will be listed/kept later on as you'll surely make a good decision. Count on me for future investments.

And to everyone who still didn't get their funds/bonds back... sincerely hope things work out for you.

All the best
Miguel
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November 30, 2012, 03:09:29 AM
 #219

Meni,

I also want to extend the Kudos... I received my payout and really appreciate it!  Looking forward to the future with PureMining.


Naelr

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December 05, 2012, 03:00:18 PM
 #220

Meni, I know you have stated before that you had shares that you had retracted because you were unable to sell, now that I have received my dividends would you be interested in allowing me to buy some of those unsold shares?

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