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Author Topic: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond  (Read 34933 times)
Meni Rosenfeld
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December 05, 2012, 04:08:22 PM
 #221

Meni, I know you have stated before that you had shares that you had retracted because you were unable to sell, now that I have received my dividends would you be interested in allowing me to buy some of those unsold shares?
Well, I can always issue new bonds (especially now that I'm doing payments directly) so it doesn't really matter if I had excess bonds or not.

I did specify that I would not sell at less than 0.28 BTC before the ASIC situation settles; on the other hand, with the GLBSE mess what I'd be selling now is a private agreement which is quite different from the publicly traded bonds to which I referred, so I'm not sure it applies.

Additionally, I don't really know how to properly price the bonds at the current situation. ASIC pricing isn't representative as they're not here yet and in short supply, the ELE isn't representative as it will go down considerably once the ASICs arrive. Which is basically the very reason why even when GLBSE was up I wanted to sit it out for a while.

Also, with the closing of GLBSE and the crude direct payments system, I would rather maintain the status quo than issue new obligations. Especially since not all bondholders are accounted for yet.

All that said, you can contact me in PM with more details about what you're interested it, and I can consider it.

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Meni Rosenfeld
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December 05, 2012, 09:35:26 PM
 #222

I have received confirmation from Nefario for a few more of the biggest claims I've received, which goes a bit towards restoring my faith in humanity. I will provide more details and pay out some more coupons in a few days.

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December 06, 2012, 02:34:15 AM
 #223

Meni,

I just want to say I really appreciate how your handling this especially considering the mess currently going on with Gigamining.  I too might be interested in buying some shares if you do decide to offer them before or after ASIC's hit the market.  Keep up the great work...

I also wanted to ask if your going to just go on a schedule with future payouts or go like you used to on GLBSE?

Naelr

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December 06, 2012, 02:39:50 AM
 #224

Yes, I've been watching all the other bonds and I must say, I am so glad I bought from you. You are one of the best most reliable people around. With that said, since I see there is interest I would like to make a suggestion. Since we know the new mining boards will most likely hit within the next 3 months, what if you issued shares at .20 btc and it was stated that they could be bought back at the end of 3 months at the issue price. I personally would love this or any other ideas you have. I have a descent number of bitcoins sitting idle and would like to "put them to use."

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December 06, 2012, 06:39:06 AM
 #225

I also wanted to ask if your going to just go on a schedule with future payouts or go like you used to on GLBSE?
Are you asking about the frequency of payouts? Once I am sufficiently comfortable with my list of bondholders, I will try to pay out weekly. It is not practical for me to do this 3 times a week, and the primary original reason for it (keeping the price stable) is moot now.

Yes, I've been watching all the other bonds and I must say, I am so glad I bought from you. You are one of the best most reliable people around. With that said, since I see there is interest I would like to make a suggestion. Since we know the new mining boards will most likely hit within the next 3 months, what if you issued shares at .20 btc and it was stated that they could be bought back at the end of 3 months at the issue price. I personally would love this or any other ideas you have. I have a descent number of bitcoins sitting idle and would like to "put them to use."
Personally I think ASICs will be here sooner, and that therefore 0.2 BTC is much overpriced. I don't think it will be worth the hassle to sell new bonds to people, but I will give it some more thought.

It is a very dangerous thought that you must "put your bitcoins to use", and is what caused many of the recent disasters. Your bitcoins are happy where they are, they are safe if you secured them properly, and they will appreciate in value if Bitcoin catches on. Only invest them in things you consider safe and profitable, not just because you feel obliged to.

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December 07, 2012, 09:49:58 PM
 #226

Well I guess I'm confused about what your saying, previously you stated that you would honor .28btc per share that was still outstanding (15566 shares). Personally I bought my shares at .37btc and and compounded reinvest my earnings into more PureMining shares. For what I assume is that the block reward is now half, so half of .37btc (which I assume was the staring price) would be .185btc; however, we must also admit that with the way the current market is with mining rigs we can't estimate what will come out when, ButterflyLabs had stated they would come out with the new boards in Oct. and we are still waiting and I personally feel that the best way to keep bitcoin stable is the give the miners and investor and way to "keep their money busy" instead of selling it for USD or any other currency. Just as someone who has money in their savings account is good, but if you have money in there you know your not going to spend, why not put it in a no penalty CD? Furthermore my question for you would be what is a price you deem worthy of selling new shares for? If my accounting is right you have 4,434 share plus any you have personally given back. Now non of us have anywhere near that amount to buy but it would be Feb. before we see the new boards and I'd like to invest in you because first your honest and of all the people I trust you most and value that I might not make the highest yield with you but that I will get an A++ customer service Smiley

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December 07, 2012, 09:53:48 PM
 #227

Also I visit your website (www.bitcoinpuremining.com) pretty frequently and was wondering if you could make it exportable so we could work with making some graphs and such Smiley please and thank you Smiley

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Meni Rosenfeld
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December 08, 2012, 04:48:26 PM
 #228

Well I guess I'm confused about what your saying, previously you stated that you would honor .28btc per share that was still outstanding (15566 shares).
I never said I would buy at 0.28 BTC per bond. I said I would not sell at less than 0.28 BTC per bond until the ASIC situation stabilizes.

Personally I bought my shares at .37btc and and compounded reinvest my earnings into more PureMining shares. For what I assume is that the block reward is now half, so half of .37btc (which I assume was the staring price) would be .185btc;
That's not how it works. The valuation of a bond takes into account the future coupon prospects. The reward halving was known in advance, the value of a bond doesn't magically go down when the halving actually happens.

however, we must also admit that with the way the current market is with mining rigs we can't estimate what will come out when, ButterflyLabs had stated they would come out with the new boards in Oct. and we are still waiting
Right. But if ASICs arrive any time soon, a bond will give you much less than 0.2 BTC in its lifetime. If they arrive later, maybe it will give you that in its lifetime. This means that paying 0.2 BTC for such a bond now is a poor investment which will be lossy on average.

and I personally feel that the best way to keep bitcoin stable is the give the miners and investor and way to "keep their money busy" instead of selling it for USD or any other currency.
You don't need need to sell the bitcoins, you can keep them. And no, investing for the sake of investing is not a way to stablize Bitcoin; you need to invest in actually viable ventures, bad investments are bad for both the investor and the economy. If no good investments are around, keep the coins until you find one.

Mining in general may or may not be a good investment. But as I stated I am not currently actively looking to sell more mining bonds, so I will only agree to do it for a price which is too high to be a good investment.

Just as someone who has money in their savings account is good, but if you have money in there you know your not going to spend, why not put it in a no penalty CD?
Traditional currencies are constantly inflating, so it is viable to invest them in safe deposit programs (which at best negate the depreciation), and this is the "neutral" thing to do with them. Bitcoin does not have long-term inflation, and their value has an upward trend, so there is no way to invest them which is safe and generates interest. The neutral thing to do with bitcoins is to just hold them.

Furthermore my question for you would be what is a price you deem worthy of selling new shares for?
I don't know. With some work (which would be too much hassle for what I can expect to gain from it) I could come up with a figure that may be reasonable but there is so much uncertainty that it may end up unfair to investors.

If my accounting is right you have 4,434 share plus any you have personally given back.
I can issue as many bonds as I want. The fact that I issued 20,000 bonds on GLBSE (of which 4,000 were recalled completely, and 434 were held by me) means nothing. Of course it would not be safe for me to issue too many.

before we see the new boards and I'd like to invest in you because first your honest and of all the people I trust you most and value that I might not make the highest yield with you but that I will get an A++ customer service Smiley
Thank you for your kind words - I will be happy to have you as an investor, when I actually have something I want to offer Smiley

Also I visit your website (www.bitcoinpuremining.com) pretty frequently and was wondering if you could make it exportable so we could work with making some graphs and such Smiley please and thank you Smiley
It's fairly easy to copy the table, paste to notepad, copy and paste to Excel. That's what I do. Is there anything else you need?

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December 09, 2012, 04:55:07 PM
 #229

Nefario has sent additional data including these accounts:

Code:
1EnNyRWR6MnHWirJEZe9UepdakN3KWsxig 4900
12Lo5ijdc1MaHZBqsHuidoWXRLocbYLcJ7 1155
18q9J5iMkvU8kgmYm2oShdPPbaLZWHTAns 453
1Paqi9xBpF2zp8XHfHmQ1uwar5tJCBFJjx 200
1NPt437SqUK9fDEApfw53hvtE3CwdQXBrA 194
1AMPFgxJo17nzR7sQZ87agvtzGr3FfWhoH 178
1NodU1AbhqMMp32nMbxfURcJeMiepvoaMr 126
1ABK4UjEZvDGuwuZRBE3LWwv18WwpgqUy7 112
1Eh18YVchhT51ywdMVuTNMnLzv1Fh2pQWv 1

The following have sent claims to me, which Nefario did not yet confirm but I consider to be legitimate, and hence credit them:
Code:
18H5raWsdAfEJBGYVY7NwkvDMKdTctG8Ym 187
1C1pqZjzaQRFmUYDDe7u2jE22Kuk8eED77 35
1PwwqGvULxMqdLEcw9SmBUXjnU9pUG9p4g 28
18otxBLcwMHHwr2VLa6fiRSoE5Wb2WtNMw 15
167tT98Cnj1RRGUmaSb11n24N4stfC4nJZ 15
1HfktGrjupruzxMsTF7xVMk7LWKR5Uf4GW 1

I am happy to announce that these are all the unmatched claims that I received (up to minor difference in the exact amount of bonds); which means that it is likely nobody tried to scam us (+1 for humanity) and that there will be no unserved bondholders.

I have sent the new approved bondholders (total 7600 bonds) a test payment of 1 satoshi per bond, followed by a payment of 0.0164844138 BTC per bond for blocks 201935 to 209327.

In most cases I have used the Bitcoin address given by Nefario. If you would like to receive coupons to a different address instead, please send me a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.

There are still 1023 unclaimed bonds. I will give Nefario about a week to send me more names. After this the list will be finalized, with unclaimed bonds distributed between the Bitcoin Foundation, Bitcoin100 and the Singularity Institute (I tried to contact GiveWell about receiving Bitcoin donations, but got no response), and I will start a more regular coupon payment schedule.

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December 09, 2012, 04:59:51 PM
 #230

In most cases I have used the Bitcoin address given by Nefario. If you would like to receive coupons to a different address instead, please send me a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.

If you tell how to do "a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.", it will help many.
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December 09, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
 #231

In most cases I have used the Bitcoin address given by Nefario. If you would like to receive coupons to a different address instead, please send me a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.

If you tell how to do "a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.", it will help many.
In Bitcoin-qt: Go to File/Sign message, put the address you submitted to GLBSE in the first box, and the new address in the second box. Click "Sign message" and you'll get the signature in the third box.

In blockchain.info My Wallet: Go to "Receive money", find the row with the address you submitted to GLBSE, open the "Actions" dropdown, and select "Sign Message". Enter the new address in the box, and click "Sign message". A signature field will be added to the dialog.

In other clients: I don't know. Not all of them support this, but if they do it should be similar to the above. You should be able to export the private key and import to another client to sign. Or you could just leave it as is and receive payments to the old address.

In all cases the wallet should of course be in control of the old address; and you should send to me a mail / PM specifying the old address, the new address and the signature.

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December 09, 2012, 08:54:11 PM
 #232

Both test amount and bond payment received. Thanks again for managing this so well, even though it's likely been a bunch of extra work you didn't sign up for.

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December 09, 2012, 09:06:48 PM
 #233

Both test amount and bond payment received. Thanks again for managing this so well, even though it's likely been a bunch of extra work you didn't sign up for.
Right, both the bondholders and myself are victims of the GLBSE mess, in different ways. We all signed up to deal with the fallout of a problem with GLBSE, even if we hoped it wouldn't happen, or that it wouldn't be this bad.

I'm using a time tracking software I wrote to keep a record of what I do every minute of every day. I haven't gotten yet to the part of displaying the total per time period, if I ever do it will be interesting to see how much time I've spent on this since GLBSE shut down.

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December 12, 2012, 09:59:36 AM
 #234

Meni can you update us on the next steps?

I'd curious about next dividend payment (when/how) and the progress on implementation of coloured BTC.

Thanks again
M
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December 12, 2012, 10:29:01 AM
 #235

Meni can you update us on the next steps?

I'd curious about next dividend payment (when/how) and the progress on implementation of coloured BTC.

Thanks again
M
Since making more payments before finalizing the list is very messy, and Nefario says he'll have more accounts for me, I'll give about a week before moving forward.

There's an alpha Armory-based CC client with most of the needed functionality, I expect I'll be able to issue a CC version in about 2 months.

Update: It's not really related, but I've finally received some coins from GLBSE. It's a Hanukkah miracle! I don't yet know for sure what portion this is of my entire deposit.

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December 15, 2012, 09:49:08 PM
 #236

I've been looking for a payment plan that simultaneously doesn't cause

1. Unnecessary delays to confirmed bondholders,
2. Monetary loss to yet unconfirmed bondholders,
3. Monetary loss to me, or
4. An organizational mess.

I eventually came up with the following:

I will pay the coupons to confirmed bondholders on a roughly weekly cycle. Blocks for which this was paid will be denoted "partial" at http://bitcoinpuremining.com/.

"Partial" will at any point in time designate a specific amount of paid bonds, which this thread will be updated with.

Every new confirmed bondholder will be paid retroactively the partially paid coupons, and the number of paid bonds will be adjusted accordingly.

At some unspecified future point in time, all unclaimed bonds will be donated to charity and retroactively paid, and the corresponding blocks will be designated as fully paid.


With this in mind, I have paid 0.0034117507 BTC per bond for blocks 209663 to 212015, a total of 49.61709105 BTC to 14543 bonds. This is transaction 2b7e8173010182e8d32a28eb87aed5769b90d75d3a50b547b6dbb089163a8b94.

Some addresses have been changed at the request of the owners.

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Bitcoil - Exchange bitcoins for ILS (thread)   |   Israel Bitcoin community homepage (thread)
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December 16, 2012, 11:23:55 PM
 #237

That's great plan. I just received first dividend. Thank you!
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December 17, 2012, 03:40:07 AM
 #238

I've been looking for a payment plan that simultaneously doesn't cause

1. Uunnecessary delays to confirmed bondholders,
2. Monetary loss to yet unconfirmed bondholders,
3. Monetary loss to me, or
4. An organizational mess.

I eventually came up with the following:

I will pay the coupons to confirmed bondholders on a roughly weekly cycle. Blocks for which this was paid will be denoted "partial" at http://bitcoinpuremining.com/.

"Partial" will at any point in time designate a specific amount of paid bonds, which this thread will be updated with.

Every new confirmed bondholder will be paid retroactively the partially paid coupons, and the number of paid bonds will be adjusted accordingly.

At some unspecified future point in time, all unclaimed bonds will be donated to charity and retroactively paid, and the corresponding blocks will be designated as fully paid.


With this in mind, I have paid 0.0034117507 BTC per bond for blocks 209663 to 212015, a total of 49.61709105 BTC to 14543 bonds. This is transaction 2b7e8173010182e8d32a28eb87aed5769b90d75d3a50b547b6dbb089163a8b94.

Some addresses have been changed at the request of the owners.

I am buying PureMining bonds for 0.05 BTC each. Considering ASICs are going to hit the market and the low liquidity due to the GLBSE shutdown, this is a great offer.
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December 17, 2012, 07:16:00 AM
 #239

I have received both the test payments and bond payments, thx, you are the most honest man I've ever seen in this community Smiley

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December 17, 2012, 08:53:50 AM
 #240

I have received both the test payments and bond payments, thx, you are the most honest man I've ever seen in this community Smiley

+1

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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