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Author Topic: [ANN][DCN] Deepcoin secure hashing (CPU/GPU) New algo/ No premine/ No IPO/ PoW  (Read 176734 times)
gjhiggins
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August 16, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
 #761

if both X11 and DeepCoin algos are the same, then what's the new about DeepCoin algo.?

Or am I missing something here?

The original question referenced some of the algos in the mix:

@Dev
Luffa512, CubeHash512 and Echo512
are those algos the same with the Luffa , CubeHash  and Echo   of X11 algo?

And indeed they are. I should have mentioned in my earlier response that they do in fact come in 256 output format as well as 512. There is a general sense that Echo means the standard 256-output format, whereas if you mean to reference the 512-output format, you should do so explicitly, i.e. Echo512. The OP's question is very valid.

However, you are asking a different question: if they're the same hashfns, does that mean x11 and Deepcoin algos are the same?

No, they are not the same. But both algos use chains of hash functions and they share some of the links, specifically the three NIST candidates Luffa, CubeHash and Echo. (Algorithm is a general term and is confusingly correct for both X11-the-chain and Luffa-the-hash-function.)

For chained-hash coins, the action usually takes place in src/hashblock.h, the header file that defines which hashfns will make up the chain and their batting order.

The algorithm basically runs: given a hash “256h” that you want to check, call Luffa512(256h), the result becomes a new “512h” hash, then call CubeHash512(512h), the result becomes the new “512h”, then call Echo512(512h) and finally the result gets chopped back to 256 and returned.

Blur the details a bit and you get

256_hash_result = trimto256(Echo512(CubeHash512(Luffa512(256_hash_to_check))))

Extend the chain by a  couple more hash functions (Fugue, Keccak, etc.) and you're in qubit and NIST5 territory, interweave them randomly but reproducibly and you're off into Quarkland; continue extending and you'll eventually reach chaincoin/x11 (same eleven hashfns, different order for two of 'em), x12, 13, 14, 15 and 17 <- the latter all pretty much just “moar hashfns”.

This time, it's hashblock.h under the lens:

Darkcoin:
https://github.com/darkcoinproject/darkcoin/raw/master/src/hashblock.h
Deepcoin:
https://github.com/Deepcoinbiz/Deepcoin/raw/master-0.8/src/hashblock.h

Despite a slight difference in coding style it's clear they are related but by no means the same.

There's an interesting-to-me sidenote at the changepoint “62c36”: Deepcoin's chain function is appropriately labelled “Hash5” whereas Darkcoin's chain function is labelled “Hash9” (not 11), apparently a fossilised remnant of Mr. Duffield's design process. Other coin devs appear to have honoured this, at least X15Coin has https://github.com/X15COIN/X15Coin/blob/master/src/hashblock.h#L78

Personally, I'm very cautious of statements about the improbability of ASICs for NIST candidates, whichever round ...



(From http://rijndael.ece.vt.edu/sha3/ - note, the free giveaway of SHA-3 ASICs has finished.)

I recommend a visit to Graz Technical University's SHA-3 Zoo where you check up on things like http://ehash.iaik.tugraz.at/wiki/SHA-3_Hardware_Implementations


Cheers

Graham
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peterw1234
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August 16, 2014, 04:58:49 PM
 #762

if both X11 and DeepCoin algos are the same, then what's the new about DeepCoin algo.?

Or am I missing something here?

The original question referenced some of the algos in the mix:

@Dev
Luffa512, CubeHash512 and Echo512
are those algos the same with the Luffa , CubeHash  and Echo   of X11 algo?

And indeed they are. I should have mentioned in my earlier response that they do in fact come in 256 output format as well as 512. There is a general sense that Echo means the standard 256-output format, whereas if you mean to reference the 512-output format, you should do so explicitly, i.e. Echo512. The OP's question is very valid.

However, you are asking a different question: if they're the same hashfns, does that mean x11 and Deepcoin algos are the same?

No, they are not the same. But both algos use chains of hash functions and they share some of the links, specifically the three NIST candidates Luffa, CubeHash and Echo. (Algorithm is a general term and is confusingly correct for both X11-the-chain and Luffa-the-hash-function.)

For chained-hash coins, the action usually takes place in src/hashblock.h, the header file that defines which hashfns will make up the chain and their batting order.

The algorithm basically runs: given a hash “256h” that you want to check, call Luffa512(256h), the result becomes a new “512h” hash, then call CubeHash512(512h), the result becomes the new “512h”, then call Echo512(512h) and finally the result gets chopped back to 256 and returned.

Blur the details a bit and you get

256_hash_result = trimto256(Echo512(CubeHash512(Luffa512(256_hash_to_check))))

Extend the chain by a  couple more hash functions (Fugue, Keccak, etc.) and you're in qubit and NIST5 territory, interweave them randomly but reproducibly and you're off into Quarkland; continue extending and you'll eventually reach chaincoin/x11 (same eleven hashfns, different order for two of 'em), x12, 13, 14, 15 and 17 <- the latter all pretty much just “moar hashfns”.

This time, it's hashblock.h under the lens:

Darkcoin:
https://github.com/darkcoinproject/darkcoin/raw/master/src/hashblock.h
Deepcoin:
https://github.com/Deepcoinbiz/Deepcoin/raw/master-0.8/src/hashblock.h

Despite a slight difference in coding style it's clear they are related but by no means the same.

There's an interesting-to-me sidenote at the changepoint “62c36”: Deepcoin's chain function is appropriately labelled “Hash5” whereas Darkcoin's chain function is labelled “Hash9” (not 11), apparently a fossilised remnant of Mr. Duffield's design process. Other coin devs appear to have honoured this, at least X15Coin has https://github.com/X15COIN/X15Coin/blob/master/src/hashblock.h#L78

Personally, I'm very cautious of statements about the improbability of ASICs for NIST candidates, whichever round ...



(From http://rijndael.ece.vt.edu/sha3/ - note, the free giveaway of SHA-3 ASICs has finished.)

I recommend a visit to Graz Technical University's SHA-3 Zoo where you check up on things like http://ehash.iaik.tugraz.at/wiki/SHA-3_Hardware_Implementations


Cheers

Graham


This guy is so pro Roll Eyes
scamkiller
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August 16, 2014, 05:56:15 PM
 #763

if both X11 and DeepCoin algos are the same, then what's the new about DeepCoin algo.?

Or am I missing something here?

The original question referenced some of the algos in the mix:

@Dev
Luffa512, CubeHash512 and Echo512
are those algos the same with the Luffa , CubeHash  and Echo   of X11 algo?

And indeed they are. I should have mentioned in my earlier response that they do in fact come in 256 output format as well as 512. There is a general sense that Echo means the standard 256-output format, whereas if you mean to reference the 512-output format, you should do so explicitly, i.e. Echo512. The OP's question is very valid.

However, you are asking a different question: if they're the same hashfns, does that mean x11 and Deepcoin algos are the same?

No, they are not the same. But both algos use chains of hash functions and they share some of the links, specifically the three NIST candidates Luffa, CubeHash and Echo. (Algorithm is a general term and is confusingly correct for both X11-the-chain and Luffa-the-hash-function.)

For chained-hash coins, the action usually takes place in src/hashblock.h, the header file that defines which hashfns will make up the chain and their batting order.

The algorithm basically runs: given a hash “256h” that you want to check, call Luffa512(256h), the result becomes a new “512h” hash, then call CubeHash512(512h), the result becomes the new “512h”, then call Echo512(512h) and finally the result gets chopped back to 256 and returned.

Blur the details a bit and you get

256_hash_result = trimto256(Echo512(CubeHash512(Luffa512(256_hash_to_check))))

Extend the chain by a  couple more hash functions (Fugue, Keccak, etc.) and you're in qubit and NIST5 territory, interweave them randomly but reproducibly and you're off into Quarkland; continue extending and you'll eventually reach chaincoin/x11 (same eleven hashfns, different order for two of 'em), x12, 13, 14, 15 and 17 <- the latter all pretty much just “moar hashfns”.

This time, it's hashblock.h under the lens:

Darkcoin:
https://github.com/darkcoinproject/darkcoin/raw/master/src/hashblock.h
Deepcoin:
https://github.com/Deepcoinbiz/Deepcoin/raw/master-0.8/src/hashblock.h

Despite a slight difference in coding style it's clear they are related but by no means the same.

There's an interesting-to-me sidenote at the changepoint “62c36”: Deepcoin's chain function is appropriately labelled “Hash5” whereas Darkcoin's chain function is labelled “Hash9” (not 11), apparently a fossilised remnant of Mr. Duffield's design process. Other coin devs appear to have honoured this, at least X15Coin has https://github.com/X15COIN/X15Coin/blob/master/src/hashblock.h#L78

Personally, I'm very cautious of statements about the improbability of ASICs for NIST candidates, whichever round ...



(From http://rijndael.ece.vt.edu/sha3/ - note, the free giveaway of SHA-3 ASICs has finished.)

I recommend a visit to Graz Technical University's SHA-3 Zoo where you check up on things like http://ehash.iaik.tugraz.at/wiki/SHA-3_Hardware_Implementations


Cheers

Graham



So,deepcoin algo is even weaker than NIST5 ,qubit,right?
coz it's only 3 parts of X11,NIST5 ,qubit are both 5 parts of X11.

gjhiggins
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August 16, 2014, 11:02:16 PM
 #764

So,deepcoin algo is even weaker than NIST5 ,qubit,right?  coz it's only 3 parts of X11,NIST5 ,qubit are both 5 parts of X11.

Ah, no, you can't make that comparison, it doesn't work that way.

That's a wee bit like saying if it takes 4 and half minutes to soft-boil an egg then soft-boiling half a dozen eggs should take just short of half an hour.

But yes, the situation is a little confused/confusing.

As far as I understand it, the absolute basics for altcoin crypto are:

256-bit crypto is appropriate for the task and good until 2040 at least
ECRYPT II's 2012 annual review of key lengths opines “Good, generic application-independent recommendation, ≈ 30 years” and that’s just for 128-bit, for 256-bit they state “Good protection against quantum computers unless Shor’s algorithm applies.”

one round of hashing is adequate to secure the blockchain
Hashing the result of a hash brings no gain in security. It seems that the otherwise-inexplicable double round of SHA256 hashing in classic Bitcoin is a simple-but-tricksy way of defending against the threat of a possible length extension attack which was was being discussed at the time but which subsequently came to naught.

The multi-hash approach was first used in SiFcoin (google translated): “Complication chain to the length of 6 different hash functions and increase bit depth to intermediate 512 - attempt to protect from further development of extremely efficient Mh / s gpu-algorithms and theory, "simple" Gh / s devices”.

Note, no mention at all made of security, just a possibility of limiting GPU advantage (and a dubious possibility at that). But somehow, this tactic to limit GPU advantage has mutated into security theatre cryptobabble: “super secure hashing” (Quark), “X15 adds 2 extra layers of hashing to the popular and already very secure X13 hashing Algorithm” (Maiacoin).

There's a pertinent stackexchange discussion Guarding against cryptanalytic breakthroughs: combining multiple hash functions. The posts by Zooko and by Thomas give a realistic appreciation of the issues.

When it's boiled down to the essence: for an altcoin, a tactic of chaining hash algos can't be proven to increase security nor can the tactic be proven not to reduce security. This latter weakness is usually considered a FAIL in crypto best practice.

The sole purpose of chaining hash functions is to protect mining from being overwhelmed by specialist hardware advantage. Any mention of enhanced security is either a misconception or simply cryptobabble and, for either reason, disheartening to see in an [ANN].

Cheers

Graham
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August 17, 2014, 02:37:19 AM
 #765

difficulty goes up

{
"blocks" : 73028,
"currentblocksize" : 0,
"currentblocktx" : 0,
"difficulty" : 21.86045603,
"errors" : "",
"generate" : false,
"genproclimit" : -1,
"hashespersec" : 0,
"networkhashps" : 1256120248,
"pooledtx" : 1,
"testnet" : false
}
peterw1234
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August 17, 2014, 05:57:45 AM
 #766

difficulty goes up

{
"blocks" : 73028,
"currentblocksize" : 0,
"currentblocktx" : 0,
"difficulty" : 21.86045603,
"errors" : "",
"generate" : false,
"genproclimit" : -1,
"hashespersec" : 0,
"networkhashps" : 1256120248,
"pooledtx" : 1,
"testnet" : false
}

Glad to see the increasing difficulty. A pure PoW coin with a new algo has so much more potential than other common PoS coins Cheesy
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August 17, 2014, 07:06:50 AM
 #767

So,deepcoin algo is even weaker than NIST5 ,qubit,right?  coz it's only 3 parts of X11,NIST5 ,qubit are both 5 parts of X11.

Ah, no, you can't make that comparison, it doesn't work that way.

That's a wee bit like saying if it takes 4 and half minutes to soft-boil an egg then soft-boiling half a dozen eggs should take just short of half an hour.

But yes, the situation is a little confused/confusing.

As far as I understand it, the absolute basics for altcoin crypto are:

256-bit crypto is appropriate for the task and good until 2040 at least
ECRYPT II's 2012 annual review of key lengths opines “Good, generic application-independent recommendation, ≈ 30 years” and that’s just for 128-bit, for 256-bit they state “Good protection against quantum computers unless Shor’s algorithm applies.”

one round of hashing is adequate to secure the blockchain
Hashing the result of a hash brings no gain in security. It seems that the otherwise-inexplicable double round of SHA256 hashing in classic Bitcoin is a simple-but-tricksy way of defending against the threat of a possible length extension attack which was was being discussed at the time but which subsequently came to naught.

The multi-hash approach was first used in SiFcoin (google translated): “Complication chain to the length of 6 different hash functions and increase bit depth to intermediate 512 - attempt to protect from further development of extremely efficient Mh / s gpu-algorithms and theory, "simple" Gh / s devices”.

Note, no mention at all made of security, just a possibility of limiting GPU advantage (and a dubious possibility at that). But somehow, this tactic to limit GPU advantage has mutated into security theatre cryptobabble: “super secure hashing” (Quark), “X15 adds 2 extra layers of hashing to the popular and already very secure X13 hashing Algorithm” (Maiacoin).

There's a pertinent stackexchange discussion Guarding against cryptanalytic breakthroughs: combining multiple hash functions. The posts by Zooko and by Thomas give a realistic appreciation of the issues.

When it's boiled down to the essence: for an altcoin, a tactic of chaining hash algos can't be proven to increase security nor can the tactic be proven not to reduce security. This latter weakness is usually considered a FAIL in crypto best practice.

The sole purpose of chaining hash functions is to protect mining from being overwhelmed by specialist hardware advantage. Any mention of enhanced security is either a misconception or simply cryptobabble and, for either reason, disheartening to see in an [ANN].

Cheers

Graham
Thank you very much for your explaination. Smiley

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August 17, 2014, 03:28:07 PM
 #768

Difficulty slowly rising. Smiley

"If you are going through hell, keep going."

NYVCE   |   Decred Project by TacoTime   |   DeepCoin :  [ANN]   |   XwebHosting: Professional Web Hosting for BTC|LTC|NMC|PPC|DOGE|XPM|UTC   |   BTC: 13jUsnvZuhipK7bYwbSR1q9MktCbju6pc8
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August 17, 2014, 03:43:40 PM
 #769

Difficulty slowly rising. Smiley

thats good for network security and also for miners.

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August 17, 2014, 06:35:18 PM
 #770

Yes, indeed it is.

Side note, live preview of the redesigned website with much of the constructive criticisms taken into consideration. Still much to do. Would like to improve the header logo. Need to build out the ABOUT page. Fix all placeholder links. Add information to main sliders. Etc, etc.

Anyways, let me know your thoughts!

http://xwebhosting.org/deepcoin/

Edit: Changed the header logo quite a bit. Thoughts?

"If you are going through hell, keep going."

NYVCE   |   Decred Project by TacoTime   |   DeepCoin :  [ANN]   |   XwebHosting: Professional Web Hosting for BTC|LTC|NMC|PPC|DOGE|XPM|UTC   |   BTC: 13jUsnvZuhipK7bYwbSR1q9MktCbju6pc8
bigc1984
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August 17, 2014, 11:18:35 PM
 #771

Yes, indeed it is.

Side note, live preview of the redesigned website with much of the constructive criticisms taken into consideration. Still much to do. Would like to improve the header logo. Need to build out the ABOUT page. Fix all placeholder links. Add information to main sliders. Etc, etc.

Anyways, let me know your thoughts!

http://xwebhosting.org/deepcoin/

Edit: Changed the header logo quite a bit. Thoughts?

pretty awesome

xwebnetwork
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August 18, 2014, 12:01:47 AM
 #772

Thanks! Should have it finished soon. Would like to see this coin go places.

"If you are going through hell, keep going."

NYVCE   |   Decred Project by TacoTime   |   DeepCoin :  [ANN]   |   XwebHosting: Professional Web Hosting for BTC|LTC|NMC|PPC|DOGE|XPM|UTC   |   BTC: 13jUsnvZuhipK7bYwbSR1q9MktCbju6pc8
marada
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August 18, 2014, 03:00:51 AM
 #773

Yes, indeed it is.

Side note, live preview of the redesigned website with much of the constructive criticisms taken into consideration. Still much to do. Would like to improve the header logo. Need to build out the ABOUT page. Fix all placeholder links. Add information to main sliders. Etc, etc.

Anyways, let me know your thoughts!

http://xwebhosting.org/deepcoin/

Edit: Changed the header logo quite a bit. Thoughts?

Yeah, now it looks better! Smiley
hero18688
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August 18, 2014, 03:29:04 AM
 #774

I Like new algos.Is there a gpu-miner for deephash

Goldshredder
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August 18, 2014, 03:53:09 AM
 #775

Yes, indeed it is.

Side note, live preview of the redesigned website with much of the constructive criticisms taken into consideration. Still much to do. Would like to improve the header logo. Need to build out the ABOUT page. Fix all placeholder links. Add information to main sliders. Etc, etc.

Anyways, let me know your thoughts!

http://xwebhosting.org/deepcoin/

Edit: Changed the header logo quite a bit. Thoughts?

Looking good.

Small grammar change required - "mining DCN yields a much higher hash rate"
yellowduck2
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August 18, 2014, 04:02:23 AM
 #776

So this coin turns out to be another myriad. It's all about mining.
peterw1234
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August 18, 2014, 05:06:41 AM
 #777

I Like new algos.Is there a gpu-miner for deephash

It's at the front page...
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August 18, 2014, 05:54:18 AM
 #778

is there a problem on supernova pool? autopay is not working and manual payment not working too since yesterday...
peterw1234
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August 18, 2014, 08:03:39 AM
 #779

is there a problem on supernova pool? autopay is not working and manual payment not working too since yesterday...

"We are investingating issues in the backend. Your shares and hashrate are safe and we will fix things ASAP.
Payouts disabled, you will not receive any coins to your offline wallet for the time being"
From the pool's home page
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August 18, 2014, 08:56:16 AM
 #780

Yes, indeed it is.

Side note, live preview of the redesigned website with much of the constructive criticisms taken into consideration. Still much to do. Would like to improve the header logo. Need to build out the ABOUT page. Fix all placeholder links. Add information to main sliders. Etc, etc.

Anyways, let me know your thoughts!

http://xwebhosting.org/deepcoin/

Edit: Changed the header logo quite a bit. Thoughts?
Much better now.

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