FAIRLAY - SPORTS BETTING for experts - highest liquidity, provably best odds

[danshan11]

Oops I mean legalize and regulate.  You are totally right in that deregulation is very unlikely.  For starters, there is the historical money laundering problem so AML/KYC is pretty important.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/us/politics/supreme-court-sports-betting-new-jersey.html

AML KYC are really important for the government or books with no common sense

if you cant tell someone is using your service to steal lie or cheat you probably need to get out of ANY business

It has nothing to do with stealing or lying (at least from the casino's point of view), and everything to do with money laundering to avoid taxes or to turn illegal funds into more legitimate looking ones.


...

In other news, did Fairlay decide to only settle some of their presidential markets because they wanted to limit their risk on the off chance (I'd say 0.1%) that Biden does not win? 

Anyways this is fairly strange. I wish they had a Twitter account or used the blog to post about decisions like this.
It looks like Fairlay ignores this discussion thread for the most part too.

https://twitter.com/FairlayPM


I think tons of people get fairlay confused, fairlay is not a sportsbook, fairlay is a peer to peer exchange

[1714541134]

1714541134

[Degens]

why do you call degens non custodial? what do you mean by non custodial?

The Degens Betting Exchange uses ethereum smart contracts which enables it to be non custodial.

This means at no point do users deposit money into Degens, as bets are done wallet to wallet. So if malicious management wanted to steal someone's funds, it is not possible. If government agencies wanted to seize someone's funds, it is not possible. If management gets hit by a bus and no longer is alive, the user has full custody of their funds. If the Degens.com website were to go down, the user still has full custody of their funds.

One disadvantage of using a non custodial solution is you cannot use BTC on Degens as it doesn't support smart contracts. So you need to bet in ETH or the stablecoin DAI which is a deal breaker for a lot of BTC guys.

I recall that you had tried out Degens in the past. If so, a big airdrop was given out a couple weeks ago with each coin trading at $2.20 or so. Click Degens Token on the left hand side to see how many you received. You can then sell them on the balancer pool if you'd like to get your free money.

[leea-1334]

I think tons of people get fairlay confused, fairlay is not a sportsbook, fairlay is a peer to peer exchange

This is what you get when you have people just going through threads of services they have never even used themselves,,, just posting and smearing and thinking they are doing everybody favors.

@Degens BTC is able to use smart contracts just not as easily I would say as Ethereum,,, I do not know how to myself. But this is also the other problem with non BTC to me,,, gamblers are chiefly BTC betting people:)

[Degens]

I think tons of people get fairlay confused, fairlay is not a sportsbook, fairlay is a peer to peer exchange

This is what you get when you have people just going through threads of services they have never even used themselves,,, just posting and smearing and thinking they are doing everybody favors.

@Degens BTC is able to use smart contracts just not as easily I would say as Ethereum,,, I do not know how to myself. But this is also the other problem with non BTC to me,,, gamblers are chiefly BTC betting people:)

Yes, we tend to target people that are already familiar with the ethereum ecosystem, and don't target BTC betting people as ethereum has a higher learning curve. Most people just want to bet with what they are familiar with, BTC, and not learn a new process which totally makes sense.

Give it a few years, and I suspect most bettors will be betting on non custodial smart contract platforms based on ethereum or a competing blockchain, none of which will require KYC.

[danshan11]

why do you call degens non custodial? what do you mean by non custodial?

The Degens Betting Exchange uses ethereum smart contracts which enables it to be non custodial.

This means at no point do users deposit money into Degens, as bets are done wallet to wallet. So if malicious management wanted to steal someone's funds, it is not possible. If government agencies wanted to seize someone's funds, it is not possible. If management gets hit by a bus and no longer is alive, the user has full custody of their funds. If the Degens.com website were to go down, the user still has full custody of their funds.

One disadvantage of using a non custodial solution is you cannot use BTC on Degens as it doesn't support smart contracts. So you need to bet in ETH or the stablecoin DAI which is a deal breaker for a lot of BTC guys.

I recall that you had tried out Degens in the past. If so, a big airdrop was given out a couple weeks ago with each coin trading at $2.20 or so. Click Degens Token on the left hand side to see how many you received. You can then sell them on the balancer pool if you'd like to get your free money.

I am confused so if I place a bet on a market and the funds are transferred for the bet and degens gets hit by a bus how would I recover those funds? Also if degens grades a market wrong which we know grading is done by degens and the funds are settled as a loser how is that non custodial?

[danshan11]

I think tons of people get fairlay confused, fairlay is not a sportsbook, fairlay is a peer to peer exchange

This is what you get when you have people just going through threads of services they have never even used themselves,,, just posting and smearing and thinking they are doing everybody favors.

@Degens BTC is able to use smart contracts just not as easily I would say as Ethereum,,, I do not know how to myself. But this is also the other problem with non BTC to me,,, gamblers are chiefly BTC betting people:)

Yes, we tend to target people that are already familiar with the ethereum ecosystem, and don't target BTC betting people as ethereum has a higher learning curve. Most people just want to bet with what they are familiar with, BTC, and not learn a new process which totally makes sense.

Give it a few years, and I suspect most bettors will be betting on non custodial smart contract platforms based on ethereum or a competing blockchain, none of which will require KYC.

are you saying BTC people are dumb? what do you mean higher learning curve

[beerlover]

^ KYC and AML started out as something that governments used for money laundering and finding out illegal funds but that was always the face of it, not the whole part of it. There is no world where governments do not care about what you are going through, they are literally there to monitor you and that is what they were doing.

Crypto world is something we can hide ourselves and since they can't find where we are or how much we have and anything regarding our crypto finances, what they do instead is to focus their regulations into the companies we use and that way they can monitor those companies and people who use them. If you remove yourself away from every single KYC requesting company, you could actually be off the grid, if you can't do that you will have to face the fact that government monitors you.

[Degens]

I think tons of people get fairlay confused, fairlay is not a sportsbook, fairlay is a peer to peer exchange

This is what you get when you have people just going through threads of services they have never even used themselves,,, just posting and smearing and thinking they are doing everybody favors.

@Degens BTC is able to use smart contracts just not as easily I would say as Ethereum,,, I do not know how to myself. But this is also the other problem with non BTC to me,,, gamblers are chiefly BTC betting people:)

Yes, we tend to target people that are already familiar with the ethereum ecosystem, and don't target BTC betting people as ethereum has a higher learning curve. Most people just want to bet with what they are familiar with, BTC, and not learn a new process which totally makes sense.

Give it a few years, and I suspect most bettors will be betting on non custodial smart contract platforms based on ethereum or a competing blockchain, none of which will require KYC.

are you saying BTC people are dumb? what do you mean higher learning curve

No not at all.

Using Degens has a higher learning curve for BTC dudes, as it requires learning what Metamask is/does. It requires using a DEX such as uniswap to convert ETH to DAI. It requires understanding a Betfair-like interface with back/lays bets. It requires understanding the concept of gas, and why it can be high/low at any given point.

Compare this to telling a person to send BTC to nitrogen.eu and place a bet at a familiar sportsbook interface.

So unless the user was already very familiar with the ethereum space, I'd recommend they use nitrogen or fairlay to be honest due to the high learning curve.

[Degens]

why do you call degens non custodial? what do you mean by non custodial?

The Degens Betting Exchange uses ethereum smart contracts which enables it to be non custodial.

This means at no point do users deposit money into Degens, as bets are done wallet to wallet. So if malicious management wanted to steal someone's funds, it is not possible. If government agencies wanted to seize someone's funds, it is not possible. If management gets hit by a bus and no longer is alive, the user has full custody of their funds. If the Degens.com website were to go down, the user still has full custody of their funds.

One disadvantage of using a non custodial solution is you cannot use BTC on Degens as it doesn't support smart contracts. So you need to bet in ETH or the stablecoin DAI which is a deal breaker for a lot of BTC guys.

I recall that you had tried out Degens in the past. If so, a big airdrop was given out a couple weeks ago with each coin trading at $2.20 or so. Click Degens Token on the left hand side to see how many you received. You can then sell them on the balancer pool if you'd like to get your free money.

I am confused so if I place a bet on a market and the funds are transferred for the bet and degens gets hit by a bus how would I recover those funds? Also if degens grades a market wrong which we know grading is done by degens and the funds are settled as a loser how is that non custodial?

In the event everyone gets hit by a bus, this is how you'd access your funds - https://degens.medium.com/interacting-with-a-smart-contract-when-its-dapp-is-down-fcfd63d7792f though I need to update that to reflect our change of branding from SportCrypt to Degens.

A bunch of APIs and $DEGENS token holders currently grade in a similar model to REP. We will release a document soon on how you can stake your $degens and get paid to participate in grading where you would be penalized for an incorrect grade.

If you want to sell your $DEGENS tokens that you received in the airdrop, this pool has the most liquidity - https://pools.balancer.exchange/#/pool/0x05c04d16da1a7efd6d6768a3f0e609c09f99710b/shares

Take care!

[danshan11]

you are beating around the bush

if I place a bet for a zillion dollars and you grade it wrong you keep my money true or false

do you not have access to grade bets on degens?

you make it sound like your funds are completely safe like the whole system is automated and coins are 100% safe without a custodian

degens staff can grade bets any way they want ( I am not saying they do it wrong or steal but the possibility is there)

using apis is what 99% of books do to grade and there are always grading errors via API, most books delay payouts and put holds to overcome this problem

[Degens]

you are beating around the bush

if I place a bet for a zillion dollars and you grade it wrong you keep my money true or false

do you not have access to grade bets on degens?

you make it sound like your funds are completely safe like the whole system is automated and coins are 100% safe without a custodian

degens staff can grade bets any way they want ( I am not saying they do it wrong or steal but the possibility is there)

using apis is what 99% of books do to grade and there are always grading errors via API, most books delay payouts and put holds to overcome this problem

If you place a bet for a zillion dollars and it is graded incorrectly, the counterparty who is not us would receive the funds.

Hence the importance of grading correctly as we have no ability to unwind positions or 'halt' someone's account, since no user even has an account on the Degens.com platform.

And yes, if the multisig $degens traders were to collude and grade incorrectly, this would cause problems the way the system is designed which you've outlined.

To prevent this, in the coming weeks a random sample of anonymous $degens tokens holders will grade each match as well as deposit a large amount of funds into an escrow. This escrow would then be used to pay off the correct participant, and the $degens holders would be monetarily penalized to minimize any incentive to so. 

So naturally, bet limits would have to be put in place to match the size of the escrow. Currently the Trump market is $300K

To conclude, great points you've brought up and we will be sure to speak to them in detail as to how we will remedy them in our upcoming Medium article that is coming soon.

Thanks for the great insight!

[shoreno]

I think tons of people get fairlay confused, fairlay is not a sportsbook, fairlay is a peer to peer exchange

This is what you get when you have people just going through threads of services they have never even used themselves,,, just posting and smearing and thinking they are doing everybody favors.

@Degens BTC is able to use smart contracts just not as easily I would say as Ethereum,,, I do not know how to myself. But this is also the other problem with non BTC to me,,, gamblers are chiefly BTC betting people:)

Yes, we tend to target people that are already familiar with the ethereum ecosystem, and don't target BTC betting people as ethereum has a higher learning curve. Most people just want to bet with what they are familiar with, BTC, and not learn a new process which totally makes sense.

Give it a few years, and I suspect most bettors will be betting on non custodial smart contract platforms based on ethereum or a competing blockchain, none of which will require KYC.

are you saying BTC people are dumb? what do you mean higher learning curve

No not at all.

Using Degens has a higher learning curve for BTC dudes, as it requires learning what Metamask is/does. It requires using a DEX such as uniswap to convert ETH to DAI. It requires understanding a Betfair-like interface with back/lays bets. It requires understanding the concept of gas, and why it can be high/low at any given point.

Compare this to telling a person to send BTC to nitrogen.eu and place a bet at a familiar sportsbook interface.

So unless the user was already very familiar with the ethereum space, I'd recommend they use nitrogen or fairlay to be honest due to the high learning curve.

i didnt saw that he said dumb . higher learning curve on eth means there is more to learn on eth than on btc which is i think true , he already explain the rest of the reasons . btc was like a plug and play while in eth, theres a need to setup some settings .

setting up a metamask is mostly avilable for eth  . converting eth to dai is like converting your btc to other coins . last is the gas fee for eth , we also have transaction fee on btc . pretty much they are identical to each other except from the metamask and the interface of a gambling site for eth is unusual but if we use those more often we can be faniliar on them too  . most people are just foccusing on btc betting sites

[Degens]

I think tons of people get fairlay confused, fairlay is not a sportsbook, fairlay is a peer to peer exchange

This is what you get when you have people just going through threads of services they have never even used themselves,,, just posting and smearing and thinking they are doing everybody favors.

@Degens BTC is able to use smart contracts just not as easily I would say as Ethereum,,, I do not know how to myself. But this is also the other problem with non BTC to me,,, gamblers are chiefly BTC betting people:)

Yes, we tend to target people that are already familiar with the ethereum ecosystem, and don't target BTC betting people as ethereum has a higher learning curve. Most people just want to bet with what they are familiar with, BTC, and not learn a new process which totally makes sense.

Give it a few years, and I suspect most bettors will be betting on non custodial smart contract platforms based on ethereum or a competing blockchain, none of which will require KYC.

are you saying BTC people are dumb? what do you mean higher learning curve

No not at all.

Using Degens has a higher learning curve for BTC dudes, as it requires learning what Metamask is/does. It requires using a DEX such as uniswap to convert ETH to DAI. It requires understanding a Betfair-like interface with back/lays bets. It requires understanding the concept of gas, and why it can be high/low at any given point.

Compare this to telling a person to send BTC to nitrogen.eu and place a bet at a familiar sportsbook interface.

So unless the user was already very familiar with the ethereum space, I'd recommend they use nitrogen or fairlay to be honest due to the high learning curve.

i didnt saw that he said dumb . higher learning curve on eth means there is more to learn on eth than on btc which is i think true , he already explain the rest of the reasons . btc was like a plug and play while in eth, theres a need to setup some settings .

setting up a metamask is mostly avilable for eth  . converting eth to dai is like converting your btc to other coins . last is the gas fee for eth , we also have transaction fee on btc . pretty much they are identical to each other except from the metamask and the interface of a gambling site for eth is unusual but if we use those more often we can be faniliar on them too  . most people are just foccusing on btc betting sites

Degens also has a big disadvantage over Fairlay. On Degens, for each taker bet, you need to pay a gas cost which could be pennies or dollars. And you must wait for the tx to complete before the trade is completed. Most of our active users have paid $100+ in gas in their lifetimes.

Also if you win a bet, you must also 'claim' your winnings which has another gas cost associated with it.

Also I believe Fairlay has lower costs than the 0.5% commission that Degens trades on winning bets.

So the only people who may consider leaving Fairlay to join Degens are those that don't want their funds in some guy's custody, don't want to do KYC, or who live in countries that are geographically blocked. For 99% of users, I'd suggest they just stick with Fairlay as they have been around forever with zero reported issues and have the lowest fees on the planet if I'm not mistaken.

[leea-1334]

Yes, we tend to target people that are already familiar with the ethereum ecosystem, and don't target BTC betting people as ethereum has a higher learning curve. Most people just want to bet with what they are familiar with, BTC, and not learn a new process which totally makes sense.

Give it a few years, and I suspect most bettors will be betting on non custodial smart contract platforms based on ethereum or a competing blockchain, none of which will require KYC.

Thank you for the response. I actually think Ethereum was easier for me to learn than Bitcoin (but that is because I tried using a real client wallet and not custodial). With Bitcoin wallets in the beginning, you have to calculate your own mining fees and you had to choose the inputs and all that. When I first used Metamask it was very easy,,, enter password, choose spend, choose fast/medium/slow fee. But I get that what you are talking about because smart contracts are a bit different.

Problem with ETH as you say later is fees. Tx fees are already possibly a few dollars now since March so that is very painful for a sportsbetting person:)

[Degens]

Yes, we tend to target people that are already familiar with the ethereum ecosystem, and don't target BTC betting people as ethereum has a higher learning curve. Most people just want to bet with what they are familiar with, BTC, and not learn a new process which totally makes sense.

Give it a few years, and I suspect most bettors will be betting on non custodial smart contract platforms based on ethereum or a competing blockchain, none of which will require KYC.

Thank you for the response. I actually think Ethereum was easier for me to learn than Bitcoin (but that is because I tried using a real client wallet and not custodial). With Bitcoin wallets in the beginning, you have to calculate your own mining fees and you had to choose the inputs and all that. When I first used Metamask it was very easy,,, enter password, choose spend, choose fast/medium/slow fee. But I get that what you are talking about because smart contracts are a bit different.

Problem with ETH as you say later is fees. Tx fees are already possibly a few dollars now since March so that is very painful for a sportsbetting person:)

Yes, totally agreed. A lot of the ethereum smart contract based sports betting systems are moving to a L2 ("Level 2") solution which will cut fees by 90%. Expect that early next year.  You can check Poly.market which uses a L2 called Matic which has no fees. Though it's not particularly well suited to sports betting.

Also ETHv2 seeks to solve the issue with fees as well, though I'm not sure on the ETA there.

Keep watching this space though, it moves quickly!

Good luck!

[buwaytress]

Interesting discussion going on and my take:

1. crypto users are actually Bitcoin users. Agree that more altcoin users are also now betting but you generally find crypto sportsbettors are just using Bitcoin. Not so much because of the tech, but the wider access. Been tempted by smart contract types like ETH and even TRX but the lack of access, wider markets and good odds so far puts me off. Fairlay I like because P2P you can find good odds especially on the longshots.

2. I think the future for crypto users is non-custodial yes, but the future for betting with crypto probably lies in 2nd layer settlements (which even Ethereum is starting to use). Fees for tx is one thing, but I haven't seen smart contract fees lower than $5 since June and if you need 2 smart contracts to place and then claim winnings, it's really not ready yet for betting.

[codegnome]

Interesting discussion going on and my take:

1. crypto users are actually Bitcoin users. Agree that more altcoin users are also now betting but you generally find crypto sportsbettors are just using Bitcoin. Not so much because of the tech, but the wider access. Been tempted by smart contract types like ETH and even TRX but the lack of access, wider markets and good odds so far puts me off. Fairlay I like because P2P you can find good odds especially on the longshots.

2. I think the future for crypto users is non-custodial yes, but the future for betting with crypto probably lies in 2nd layer settlements (which even Ethereum is starting to use). Fees for tx is one thing, but I haven't seen smart contract fees lower than $5 since June and if you need 2 smart contracts to place and then claim winnings, it's really not ready yet for betting.

I also think most users are only interested in depositing and playing with Bitcoins. It's nice that other coins are offered, but the real value is with the Bitcoins.

[Degens]

Interesting discussion going on and my take:

1. crypto users are actually Bitcoin users. Agree that more altcoin users are also now betting but you generally find crypto sportsbettors are just using Bitcoin. Not so much because of the tech, but the wider access. Been tempted by smart contract types like ETH and even TRX but the lack of access, wider markets and good odds so far puts me off. Fairlay I like because P2P you can find good odds especially on the longshots.

2. I think the future for crypto users is non-custodial yes, but the future for betting with crypto probably lies in 2nd layer settlements (which even Ethereum is starting to use). Fees for tx is one thing, but I haven't seen smart contract fees lower than $5 since June and if you need 2 smart contracts to place and then claim winnings, it's really not ready yet for betting.

Degens is P2P as well and there are no gas costs if you enter your own odds. Gas costs are only for the makers. However there is a gas cost to claim your winnings which currently is around $1 which is crazy as gas costs used to be a few pennies!

Yes, I agree we'll need to way for 2nd layer technologies to flourish before this niche space explodes. With the current solution in place on ethereum, it's not possible to bet in the middle of the game due to gas latency which is unacceptable. This isn't a problem on a centralized site like Fairlay though.

[Degens]

Interesting discussion going on and my take:

1. crypto users are actually Bitcoin users. Agree that more altcoin users are also now betting but you generally find crypto sportsbettors are just using Bitcoin. Not so much because of the tech, but the wider access. Been tempted by smart contract types like ETH and even TRX but the lack of access, wider markets and good odds so far puts me off. Fairlay I like because P2P you can find good odds especially on the longshots.

2. I think the future for crypto users is non-custodial yes, but the future for betting with crypto probably lies in 2nd layer settlements (which even Ethereum is starting to use). Fees for tx is one thing, but I haven't seen smart contract fees lower than $5 since June and if you need 2 smart contracts to place and then claim winnings, it's really not ready yet for betting.

I also think most users are only interested in depositing and playing with Bitcoins. It's nice that other coins are offered, but the real value is with the Bitcoins.

I'd total agree that BTC is the King for now and the foreseeable future. Obviously our platform cannot use BTC as it doesn't support smart contracts which are necessary to run a non custodial sports betting platform.

Though interesting there are BTC coins wrapped on ethereum which could work but I haven't looked into them and they are probably too complex, or not sufficiently decentralized.

[FanEagle]

I guess I do not really think that the learning curve is that big but I still rather play at fairlay because I trust them more?

I know that dex and dapp and so forth type of decentralized gambling needs to be decentralized which is why there is no trust required at all but I do not trust the code of it, that is the problem, normally if the code is perfect without a problem there should be no need for me to trust anyone and can just gamble there, but I feel like there has been too many hacked or scammed or whatever defi projects so I do not think that degens could be perfect neither, and I am trying to be more careful about it. Whereas I know fairlay and I know nitrogen and I know other places like that, so I just gamble there and I feel a lot more at ease with myself gambling here.