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Question: Do you Accept Komodo ICO conversion vs Reject Komodo ICO conversion and fund new dev team?
Accept - 134 (69.4%)
Reject - 59 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 193

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Author Topic: [ANN] BitcoinDark (BTCD)--Financial_Privacy/SuperNET_Core/InstantDEX/PAX/Divs  (Read 1308284 times)
bitkokos2
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September 07, 2016, 01:03:24 PM
 #10321

New Poll Concerning the future direction of BTCD. Please Vote.

Also, please no not ask me my personal opinion about the matter.  This vote is for the community to decide.

Lastly, concerning BTCD Staker Divs, please relax, they will be paid out when I receive them from Sasha.  Staker Divs are a gift from MMBTCD, and were intended as a token of good faith to those securing the BitcoinDark blockchain and they will be paid out.  Sasha and i have both been extremely busy lately, but it will happen  Wink



Azeh, will that the last time for dividents or you will continue as long as we stake BTCD?

I also agree that it is too late for voting.
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Azeh
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September 07, 2016, 01:09:13 PM
 #10322

New Poll Concerning the future direction of BTCD. Please Vote.

Also, please no not ask me my personal opinion about the matter.  This vote is for the community to decide.

Lastly, concerning BTCD Staker Divs, please relax, they will be paid out when I receive them from Sasha.  Staker Divs are a gift from MMBTCD, and were intended as a token of good faith to those securing the BitcoinDark blockchain and they will be paid out.  Sasha and i have both been extremely busy lately, but it will happen  Wink



Azeh, will that the last time for dividents or you will continue as long as we stake BTCD?

I also agree that it is too late for voting.

I'm not sure if it will be the last time for dividends. We've had a good run 1+ years of divs. Me, Cassius, and Sasha will have to meet and discuss the future of MMBTCD and BTCD Staker Divs.

Hey guys, I just put this vote up because James asked me to do it. Please don't blame me for whether or not the vote should have taken place before the announcement. It wasn't my decision.

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September 07, 2016, 01:29:36 PM
 #10323

its the wrong question. For sure ICO is okay for funding but with different basics.

BTCD-Holders should get a bigger part of the cake and a fixed percentage of the total quantity, which is known from the beginning.

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bitkokos2
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September 07, 2016, 01:30:42 PM
 #10324

New Poll Concerning the future direction of BTCD. Please Vote.

Also, please no not ask me my personal opinion about the matter.  This vote is for the community to decide.

Lastly, concerning BTCD Staker Divs, please relax, they will be paid out when I receive them from Sasha.  Staker Divs are a gift from MMBTCD, and were intended as a token of good faith to those securing the BitcoinDark blockchain and they will be paid out.  Sasha and i have both been extremely busy lately, but it will happen  Wink



Azeh, will that the last time for dividents or you will continue as long as we stake BTCD?

I also agree that it is too late for voting.

I'm not sure if it will be the last time for dividends. We've had a good run 1+ years of divs. Me, Cassius, and Sasha will have to meet and discuss the future of MMBTCD and BTCD Staker Divs.

Hey guys, I just put this vote up because James asked me to do it. Please don't blame me for whether or not the vote should have taken place before the announcement. It wasn't my decision.

I don't blame you, it was just a statement :-)
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September 07, 2016, 01:38:27 PM
 #10325

Selling 10,0000 BTCD  --> 1000 BTC = 6 BTC

Not enough liquidity on the market. PM please.

Oh yea, wait, maybe asking too much JL put a cap on the market!!!
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September 07, 2016, 01:44:27 PM
 #10326

Selling 10,0000 BTCD  --> 1000 BTC = 6 BTC

Not enough liquidity on the market. PM please.

Oh yea, wait, maybe asking too much JL put a cap on the market!!!

Your price is 0.006 BTC
If anyone wishes he can buy 1000 BTCD for 0.004 on bittrex and give 4BTC
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September 07, 2016, 03:28:45 PM
 #10327

There is a lot of misunderstanding about basically everything, from the finances to the tech. Please read the following links to get up to speed:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1605144.msg16149001#msg16149001

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1605144.msg16171231#msg16171231

For some reason the BTCD community feels entitled to 100% of all the results from all the work I have done and what SuperNET has paid for. How much has BTCD community actually donated to me or SuperNET for iguana?

Answer: 0

I know people have put money into the BTCD, I have too, but that doesnt pay for the expenses. I am working without getting paid, but it turns out that few others are willing to do that and servers they always cost money.

There is actually the ability for me to stop volunteering my time for BTCD and just say goodbye, and use the GPL codebase in any other project. Now that would be a betrayal, even if I refunded all the BTCD funds I received for all the development work: 0

So maybe the price will go up after the iguana release, or maybe the 'buy the rumor sell the news' crowd will sell and the price goes down. The market is unpredictable so it is hard to base future expenses based on potential market prices. Plus to take advantage of any price increase, BTCD would need to be sold and after that, then what?

The reality is that if I came begging for 500 BTC to fund expenses, it would have brought in how much? With effort we probably could have raised 10,000 BTCD or so. However, that means I need to stop coding and become a fund raiser? And how long does the 10,000 BTCD last, especially if it has to be sold to pay for expenses?

Also, the full solution with BTC fees and notary nodes would have ongoing costs and I would need 10 years worth to make sure it is funded for long enough to get self-sustaining revenues from transaction fees. With 500 BTC as the max possible that could be raised and likely much less, this means BTCD could not afford dPoW.

However dPoW is needed for the full SuperNET solution of interoperating chains loosely coupled via atomic swaps. The reason is weak chains are too insecure for storing large amounts of funds, so it is not a viable long term solution.

SuperNET investors have put in thousands of BTC worth of crypto and if you read the link above, you will see that it hasnt been exactly the carefree path of infinite money. To have to pay for operating expenses from portfolio gains is ok in a bull market, but what happens when this bull market gets tired?

If there are no more trading gains, then even the SuperNET workforce becomes reduced back to just me.

Contrary to the FUD there has NOT been dozens of ICOs for all the assets. Most of them were dividended out for free to establish a trading market, no funds were raised from any ICO type of sales for anything other than SuperNET which operates as a hybrid fund. I have paid more for pangea assets than I have received from selling it. So without this fantasy ICO funds from all the assets, many of which are projects from other devs, where does the money come from?

I could have come here and asked for thousands of BTC, but instead I designed the komodo ICO to allow a decent conversion into the ICO. A smaller piece of a larger pie.

yet, the feeling is that there is some giant betrayal that there is a fixed price conversion into komodo. In order to offer a conversion right, there has to be some sort of fixed price. In order to get a market based price uncontaminated by the ICO knowledge, we used a 50% bonus from trailing month. Not perfect, but better than any alternatives that exist.

That was my assessment. However maybe I was wrong and the community prefers to not have a conversion right for the ICO? That seemed like nonsense, so I didnt even bother investigating such things.

Maybe one way to look at it is that instead of having to come up with new funding to pay for expenses, the contribution from BTCD is to convert into the komodo?

Is that really too much to ask for?

I have asked for some solution to the "unfairness" to long term holders and finally there was a post with a possible solution:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1605144.msg16170817#msg16170817

people have expected me to do everything as evidenced by the lack of active contributions. how many of you have installed iguana? tested it? helped in any active way?

That is fine, I dont complain. I do what I have to do, but it does take longer if I am the only one doing things. (I do get help from the SuperNET project, which is paying for servers, testers, config managment and GUI devs). But that means I am forced to make executive decisions and in this case knowledge of the future would have contaminated the result. I decide that is not the right way.

Some have said it is in BTCD holder's interest to have the komodo ICO raise as little as possible. If you understand tech, then you will realize that is not the case at all, as without enough funding, BTCD might end up with 80%+ of komodo, but there wont be enough funds to properly do dPoW and pay for continued development.

It is a fine balance, if the terms are too preferential to BTCD holders, then it is against ICO investors. As a large BTCD holder, I had to err on the side of being conservative to avoid conflict of interest and maybe I went a bit too far, though using what is near the 1 year all time high price and 50% premium doesnt seem such a big sacrifice.

That being said, I am open to a bonus payment to long time BTCD holders based on a community agreed formula and data as per the third link above. If the community cannot agree on how to allocate any bonus, then I certainly dont feel that I can just decide it after the reaction to my recent decision.

Now the bonus would be earned only at the higher end of the ICO result as clearly if no funds come in and BTCD already ends up with all of komodo it makes no sense to bonus out more. However, until I get an idea of whether the community can even agree to any bonus plan, I really cant make any decisions. The bonus amount would come out of the 10% reserved for ICO expenses.

Remember there is also the revshare asset snapshot, so it is not like I have neglected the BTCD, I had to make a determination of a fair exchange rate to be able to offer an exchange. If the requirement to have an exchange to komodo is removed, then this problem goes away. I have been and continue to work on my single project, which is to create the tech that allows crypto to go mainstream. I have done my best to enable BTCD -> komodo to be a key part of this solution at a decent conversion price. It seems many do not like this at all and so I am open to alternate proposals.

If the BTCD community does not want this future path, then we need to figure out an alternate plan. I can help bring a new dev team up to speed to take over the BTCD 1.0 development without dPoW and LP nodes, but of course the community would need to find/fund such a dev team.

What is needed is a solution and not just a general complaint of unfairness.

Let me know what you decide, I will honor the community decision. And if there is any alternate solution that solves the issues presented, of course I am open to that.

James




jl777, Dear James, you seem to have the heart in the right place. Let me tell you my impression of this coin from someone who just learned about it a week ago. I hope it can inspire you to get this coin back on track.

Why not use a self funding currency like DASH!

Begging for donations is not gonna will probably never be a sustainable way to finance an altcoin. There are just too many of them now. And competition is huge.

What's in for me as a new investor? This 500+ -page thread does not help to make a good impression. Neither does the last 2-3 pages that I could be bothered to read.

To put it bluntly, your coin is technically outdated. Why should I care about BitcoinDark if there is BTC, ETH, DASH and XMR. These all seem technically superior to me. I might be wrong, but it is your job to convince me otherwise. For example by updating the original post of this thread and making an introduction for someone as new as me.

With DASH the reward from mining goes
- 40 % to the miners
- 40 % to the stakers
- 10 % to the treasuries

People with significant stake get to use crypto secure votes on how the treasuries will be used. This is how several DASH full time developers and more such as a youtube promoter is financed! I suggest to look up their concept in more detail.

Why should I do a buy and hold invest into your coin now if the future of this coin is unclear and if the long term financing is unclear as well...

During moments of huge crisis such as here, the ability to implement big changes is huge. BTC is established and develops at snail speed. Due to their success they ought to be conservative. But this coin is not successful at the moment, so why not do courageous changes.

So DASH is great. So is XMR, which is anonymous. ETH is great because of smart contracts, but ETH has governance issues. Project values have not been clear at the beginning of the project (bailout vs immutable vs ETH vs ETC issue). Who is eligible for vote and how discussions and votes are organized was not clear. I believe again DASH is doing better there.

A forum vote where anyone even people not having had any significant stake or other kind of involvement in the project is the worst way to decide over the future of the coin.

Also you need a self funding currency so you can engage someone working on marketing. The main bitcoindark website telling "disrupting" and "cryptocurrency" is not something potential customers care for. They are not so much interested in the underlying technology. That just has to hold what it promises. To offer value, you need to satisfy the needs of customers.

In summary, yes, please keep this coin under development. You have a two year history, which gives trust. Find a way to keep existing investors happy. Perhaps do an ICO, implement self funding and governance.

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September 07, 2016, 03:30:51 PM
 #10328

Why couldn't you guys just make BTCD a rev-share asset with noticeable % without touching price caps, transfers, abandoning genuine blockchain, and all that ugly stuff community is raging about? Lunch KMD as you wish, and do rev-share income auto-send BTCD (@ current market price) daily into the wallets. It was done already, why not increase it?
James, any thoughts on that? Why would anyone sell knowing BTCD's being bought at market price daily, thus constantly increasing value.

BTW, nice move as to ICO being differentiated by the wallets.
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September 07, 2016, 03:40:12 PM
 #10329

I have my reasons to have some trust in JL

BUT it does not mean I agree with what you do now in the poll, which is pure manipulations.

To point out:

1) BTCD holders have exactly the same choices now without the poll
2) Not only BTCD holders can vote here
3) it could be fair only if verified BTCD holders would prepare the questions and vote + 100% fair if vote weight = BTCD hold.

I do not vote. The poll is trash.


I understand BTCD holder have interest in KMD but it also works the other way. Komodo will not profit from shiting BTCD investors. Reverse impact can be bad as well and no one will profit from that.

JL - what will go wrong if we set lower max ICO or increase BTCD holders bonus to lower the emoitions?
1. Do you have any strong proof where it the bad border line and could you explain that?
2. Do you have cost plans for ICO collected BTCs?


When we focus on facts maybe emotions go down.

Currently we only focus on our opinions and some forecasts and expectations.

I thinks it's quite obvious recent statments could and did disappoint BTCD holders. Happy is mostly the team who will profit from ICO irectly is  + maybe some exceptions but not many, as you see here and in others threads.

PS
Also it counts againist ICO investors that current BTCD price tanks and insiders can invest more, later dump on ICO and BTCD swaps.
This is also fact, which proves sth was done not the right way.

But may be still time to repair it.


New Poll Concerning the future direction of BTCD. Please Vote.

Also, please no not ask me my personal opinion about the matter.  This vote is for the community to decide.

Lastly, concerning BTCD Staker Divs, please relax, they will be paid out when I receive them from Sasha.  Staker Divs are a gift from MMBTCD, and were intended as a token of good faith to those securing the BitcoinDark blockchain and they will be paid out.  Sasha and i have both been extremely busy lately, but it will happen  Wink



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September 07, 2016, 03:41:01 PM
 #10330

small idea about bonuses. Take account balance every 10000 blocks, average it out. The closer it gets to the final balance - the bigger percent that wallet gets.
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move that crypto


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September 07, 2016, 03:48:14 PM
 #10331

I have an actual feasible suggestion:

After komodo ico is over, you could calculate the btc price per komodo for the btcd conversion using (XXXXX BTC ÷ 100000000 KMD)

This would give btcd converters a 10% advantage over the BTC donators who would be buying into 90000000 KMD in the ico

In that case, the btcd conversion would work out to be equivalent to 0.00591111 BTC invested at 0% bonus

That's an option to leave on the table, in the event that the ico raises a huge amount of BTC


Lisk gave Crypti holders a buyout of 1300 BTC out of the 14000 BTC raised, less than 10%

James is offering to give BTCD holders a buyout of ~6800 BTC.  Even if maximum 30000 BTC were raised, that would be 20%+, it's a generous offer as it is

MoveCrypto for Komodo Notary
https://komodoplatform.com/
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September 07, 2016, 03:50:05 PM
 #10332

BigCat45, can you elaborate more what that means and what is expected result of such action in all contexts?

Why couldn't you guys just make BTCD a rev-share asset with noticeable % without touching price caps, transfers, abandoning genuine blockchain, and all that ugly stuff community is raging about? Lunch KMD as you wish, and do rev-share income auto-send BTCD (@ current market price) daily into the wallets. It was done already, why not increase it?
James, any thoughts on that? Why would anyone sell knowing BTCD's being bought at market price daily, thus constantly increasing value.

BTW, nice move as to ICO being differentiated by the wallets.

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September 07, 2016, 04:14:41 PM
 #10333

The idea is not to integrate BTCD into KMD, but rather make it "coin-asset" where each wallet get's it's % of entire system gains in BTCD. Stakers rewards were automatically sent to each wallet by the script. Now if BTCD gets whatever % of total fees generated it can be bought off the market each day and sent to the wallets based on the amount of coins in it. BTCD holders get stable income everyone was dreaming about, KMD team gets ICO funds for the development. BTCD price goes up to infinity ... Everyone is happy, no?
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September 07, 2016, 04:20:31 PM
 #10334

I don't understand how the mechanics behing would work... Probably depends on how you configure it?

The idea is not to integrate BTCD into KMD, but rather make it "coin-asset" where each wallet get's it's % of entire system gains in BTCD. Stakers rewards were automatically sent to each wallet by the script. Now if BTCD gets whatever % of total fees generated it can be bought off the market each day and sent to the wallets based on the amount of coins in it. BTCD holders get stable income everyone was dreaming about, KMD team gets ICO funds for the development. BTCD price goes up to infinity ... Everyone is happy, no?

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September 07, 2016, 07:18:40 PM
 #10335

BitcoinDark is a very fair Coin.

As originally a POWer it was the first POS-Coin I could accept, cause it was build by POW mining Power.

So it has best of both worlds! POS is energy efficient, but it was build fair and by "true work", I mean POW.

The swap seems also pretty fair to me, if anybody does not want the swap, he could move to another coin. It's time enough. And if you wait a few months, you can get 50% plus and go away. Win-win-situation! If anybody thinks that isn't fair, I really don't understand the problem. You win if you stay, you win if you go!

BTCD was always fair!

I have much hope in the good solid work of James, even if the progress is sometimes slower than expected. But there IS a progress, the ZCASH-Algo and the dPOW are big steps. The decision was pragmatic, it's the best we can get!

With Komodo we have a great future, I like the concept and the people involved, also Azeh and the others. Thank you very much!

Ich hab heut Nichtgeburtstag! :-)
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September 07, 2016, 08:38:34 PM
 #10336

Like i said:

The true believers in BTCD (and most of them are from the beginning when price was high) don't participate in the % bonus you have in the ICO. That is the part i'm a little disappointing in with. I staked 2 years long to keep the network alive and it feels a little now that we have to stand back in the line and in front of us are the new believers. It doesn't feel right.

I'm sure you have the best intentions with all this, but for me personally it feels like a rip off. Price of BTCD will go until the ICO to the price you guys have decided, so at the end we get nothing while we supported the network and the coin till the end.

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September 07, 2016, 08:41:02 PM
 #10337

Hi BadAss.Sx,

There was some proposal about rewarding BTCD holders for the length they have held it for as a additional bonus.

But someone will need to work out how to figure this out for James and we as a group need to decide on that.





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September 08, 2016, 05:37:42 AM
 #10338

This will be my last post - and will make my 3rd try at explaining the fallacies of Komodo ICO - I wish you guys the best..  Please make sure EVERY Komodo team member sees this and has the opportunity to rethink their logic..

This cannot (in a legal sense) be done by a vote, anymore than Nike Shareholders can vote to take other Shareholders shares or your neighbors can vote to sell your house for you at 1/7th of what you determine the sale price to be.  There ARE other ways to achieve sustainable development - contrary to statements "this is the only way", there are actually thousands of ways to achieve consistent developer funds..  Just need to find one that is NOT co-mingling or market fixing.  You can vote on NEW initiatives, but you cannot alter a prior agreement by a vote, ALL must agree to the new terms and conditions before the old agreement is replaced (please see Bitcoindark prior promotions to understand existing agreements).

Imagine you are on a jury, and dude says, "I'm not obligated to fulfill promotions", and then prosecutor asks, "did you make a promise that millions were invested in as a result, and which you yourself were an investor?" - How would a juror vote?

"Freemarket" - ALL PROMOTIONS and PROMISES need to be honored, the wallet released (with all the promoted tech), SuperNET and BTCD allowed to market adjust (after 2 years without a release), this needs to occur or could be considered 'fixing' the market.  There might be other ways to technically NOT be fixing the market or co-mingling, like the requirement that ALL KOMODO be acquired thru the buying of BTCD (kind of like Vericoin did with Verium - genius).

Please don't end up like this guy
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/us/liberty-dollar-creator-awaits-his-fate-behind-bars.html?_r=0
Really think about this..  Crypto currency is far more of a threat to Central Banks than Private Silver Money (Bitcoin exceeds some small nations).  If you speak out against FIAT, create something that is a threat to FIAT and worth millions, then comingle or market fix, dudes with shiny badges may pay you a visit.  JL777 is somewhat anon, and may be untouchable.  Can the rest of Komodo team say the same?

BTCD/SuperNET promotions
1a) Telepathy/Telepods/Teleportation?
1b) Ramchains?
1c) Pangea?
1d) InstandDEX?
1e) Pegged Asset Exchange (PAX)?
1f) Finhive (Skynet)?
1g) Market Maker Nodes (MMatrix Nodes)?
1h) Tradebots?
1i) delayed Proof of Work (dPOW - promoted in SuperNET slack channel)?
1j) Asset Independence (asset chains)
1k) Basilisk (Lite Mode)
1l) 13+ and counting supported BTC Clone Multi-Wallets in a single app

ZeroCash Tech
2) ZKP

Komodo ICO Tech above and beyond Iguana/SuperNET/BTCD/Zerocash
3a) ?
3b) ?

Komodo is more like 95% SuperNET / BTCD, not 80% Bitcoin..

For people who think that very few will invest in Komodo - BTCD price has been market fixed yet the value as predicted by whales is a min of 7X (as release nears) - why wouldn't Bitcoin investors want the 'FREE' value that likely would have gone to SuperNET/BTCD investors?
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September 08, 2016, 06:22:48 AM
 #10339

I staked 2 years long to keep the network alive and it feels a little now that we have to stand back in the line and in front of us are the new believers.

 Shocked  It doesn't feel right.   Cry

I'm sure you have the best intentions with all this, but for me personally it feels like a rip off. Price of BTCD will go until the ICO to the price you guys have decided, so at the end we get nothing while we supported the network and the coin till the end.

You need to accept the fact that ICOscam777 is bending you over and taking advantage of your ignorance.

Don't worry if it "doesn't feel right."

You'll get used to it after a few more ICO scams.

Good thing MAID already gave you previous experience in being taken advantage of, am I right?   Grin


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September 08, 2016, 06:47:14 AM
 #10340

MAID gave me more then you ever can dream off, my little batty boy roflmao. Your scam will be revealed now a days and i will be the first who stands in line to throw the rotten tomatoes to you. Till then Wink

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