[ANN] SpreadCoin | True Decentralization (No Pools) | Testing New Masternodes

[defunctec]

Wait wait, your saying dynamic is for the rich but static is not?

Imagine this

Darkcoins MarketCap = $9,000,000,000. The cost of a DRk MN at this marketcap? around $340,000... Hey, poor people see you can just set a DRK MN up with your $340,000.

But you say SPR's method "favers the rich".

Edit: By the way, I'm pulling the dollar figures out my backside, but are not far off.

Yes it favours the rich, because my DRK MNs can't be bought out from underneath me.

With dynamic pricing my SPR MNs could be, repeatedly, by anyone with a few SPR more than me, so I may not even bother to begin with.

At least with DRK you can pool together with others and own a MN share. Nobody is going to go to the trouble though with SPR if it can be taken away by the next passing whale with deeper pockets than you and your partners.

Again i understand that you can be "taken out", but this will only happen to the opportunist's who seek as many MN's as they can with there current holdings.

So at the start someone will be able to make a masternode with 1spr, but someone can knock him off by having 2spr. Is that bad, no.

What about someone with 500spr in a MN? Well to be kicked from the network (at 3000 total slots in the list) there would need to be around 1.5million spr alocated to MN's.

To have 51% of the MN's you would need around 750,000 spr. Say 7 people had 51% of the coin supply between them (100,000spr each) and created MN's with those coins, its still not a monopoly.

Edit: Reason being the group that owns 51% of the currency can only fund 3000 wallets with 501spr. I my self could knock a few of those off and im small fry.

7 heavily financially invested individuals, yes please.

[thelonecrouton]

Wait wait, your saying dynamic is for the rich but static is not?

Imagine this

Darkcoins MarketCap = $9,000,000,000. The cost of a DRk MN at this marketcap? around $340,000... Hey, poor people see you can just set a DRK MN up with your $340,000.

But you say SPR's method "favers the rich".

Edit: By the way, I'm pulling the dollar figures out my backside, but are not far off.

Yes it favours the rich, because my DRK MNs can't be bought out from underneath me.

With dynamic pricing my SPR MNs could be, repeatedly, by anyone with a few SPR more than me, so I may not even bother to begin with.

At least with DRK you can pool together with others and own a MN share. Nobody is going to go to the trouble though with SPR if it can be taken away by the next passing whale with deeper pockets than you and your partners.

Again i understand that you can be "taken out", but this will only happen to the opportunist's who seek as many MN's as they can with there current holdings.

So at the start someone will be able to make a masternode with 1spr, but someone can knock him off by having 2spr. Is that bad, no.

What about someone with 500spr in a MN? Well to be kicked from the network (at 3000 total slots in the list) there would need to be around 1.5million spr alocated to MN's.

To have 51% of the MN's you would need around 750,000 spr. Say 7 people had 51% of the coin supply between them (100,000spr each) and created MN's with those coins, its still not a monopoly.

7 heavily financially invested individuals, yes please.

So why not call it a 500 SPR requirement and a 3000 MN cap and leave it at that? What advantage does dynamic pricing bring?

[georgem]

Yes it favours the rich, because my DRK MNs can't be bought out from underneath me.

Yes, but only if you are the weakest link, which is your own responsibility NOT TO BE, if you want to run a secure MN place.

Also, it's not like you "lose your MN". You keep your SPR, you keep your server. It's just that your MN is temporarily excluded from the "club".

You can try again with +1 SPR sir, or you can monitor the DM Spread and reenter when the MARKET PRICE for a DM is more in your favour.

We haven't even scratched the surface here of what will be possible and how people will react.

With dynamic pricing my SPR MNs could be, repeatedly, by anyone with a few SPR more than me, so I may not even bother to begin with.

Your inaction (running an MN with an irresponsibly low amount of SPR) is met with the action / initiative of a newcomer who is willing to overbid you (he acts MORE responsible than you).
It is always good for the market and any distributed system when the ACTIVE people (who show initiative and responsibility) are REWARDED, and the INACTIVE people are PUNISHED.
It's as simple as that.

At least with DRK you can pool together with others and own a MN share. Nobody is going to go to the trouble though with SPR if it can be taken away by the next passing whale with deeper pockets than you and your partners.

You can "pool together" with everybody regardless what the underlying coin is. But is this a decentralized trustless action? No, in the contrary. Many things can go wrong, and the incentive for bad players to abuse any "pool" like agreement is here.

You will not be taken away by a whale. The amount of allowed SPR MNs will be very high, certainly in the thousands.
We will have something between 1000 and 10k Masternodes in Spreadcoin, that's for sure. Not less and probably not more.
A whale can't possibly own all the coins to kick out all the other MN owners.

Sure, he can probably kick out the MNs in the lower 50-100 ranks, but how is he going to kick out the MN owners in the middle or upper part of the spread?
(As an example let's assume a spread of SPR deposits between 500 SPR and 10k SPR per Masternode: yes the whale can kick the owner of a 500-600 SPR MN out, but not all the SPR in the world are going to kick the guy with the 10k SPR out of the club.
YES, he might kick the 10k SPR guy from rank 950 to rank 550, but he will still be safe! That's the point.)

[driedgrape]

Yes it favours the rich, because my DRK MNs can't be bought out from underneath me.

Yes, but only if you are the weakest link, which is your own responsibility NOT TO BE, if you want to run a secure MN place.

Also, it's not like you "lose your MN". You keep your SPR, you keep your server. It's just that your MN is temporarily excluded from the "club".

You can try again with +1 SPR sir, or you can monitor the DM Spread and reenter when the MARKET PRICE for a DM is more in your favour.

We haven't even scratched the surface here of what will be possible and how people will react.

With dynamic pricing my SPR MNs could be, repeatedly, by anyone with a few SPR more than me, so I may not even bother to begin with.

Your inaction (running an MN with an irresponsibly low amount of SPR) is met with the action / initiative of a newcomer who is willing to overbid you (he acts MORE responsible than you).
It is always good for the market and any distributed system when the ACTIVE people (who show initiative and responsibility) are REWARDED, and the INACTIVE people are PUNISHED.
It's as simple as that.

At least with DRK you can pool together with others and own a MN share. Nobody is going to go to the trouble though with SPR if it can be taken away by the next passing whale with deeper pockets than you and your partners.

You can "pool together" with everybody regardless what the underlying coin is. But is this a decentralized trustless action? No, in the contrary. Many things can go wrong, and the incentive for bad players to abuse any "pool" like agreement is here.

You will not be taken away by a whale. The amount of allowed SPR MNs will be very high, certainly in the thousands.
We will have something between 1000 and 10k Masternodes in Spreadcoin, that's for sure. Not less and probably not more.
A whale can't possibly own all the coins to kick out all the other MN owners.

Sure, he can probably kick out the MNs in the lower 50-100 ranks, but how is he going to kick out the MN owners in the middle or upper part of the spread?
(Let's assume a spread of SPR deposits between 500 SPR and 10k SPR per Masternode: yes the whale can kick the owner of a 500-600 SPR MN out, but not all the SPR in the world are going to kick the guy with the 10k SPR out of the club.
YES, he might kick the 10k SPR guy from rank 950 to rank 550, but he will still be safe! That's the point.)

If SPR is pool minable,the price wont surpass 10K sato.
@georgem,pool minable VS solo minable,which one will go better with MN (or DM)?

[georgem]

So why not call it a 500 SPR requirement and a 3000 MN cap and leave it at that? What advantage does dynamic pricing bring?

Because nobody can possibly know what a good requirement is, and what a reasonable amount of MN cap is.
We need a reliable mechanism that will help us find out the best price, because we are just humans. We are greedy and we are not infallible.

No human has the intellect to outwit the free market. Therefor we need to implement a free market mechanism to decide for us.

This is decentralization SQUARED!


Also, just so you are happy: if you want to run a secure SPR MN that nobody can challenge, then use this formula:

The amount of SPR deposit in your DM should be BIGGER THAN (All Available SPR) / (Max DM count) .

It is possible to run a secure SPR MN anytime, and the necessary amount will be easily predictable.

[georgem]

If SPR is pool minable,the price wont surpass 10K sato.
@georgem,pool minable VS solo minable,which one will go better with MN (or DM)?

But SPR is NOT pool minable, and will do everything to stay this way.

[Jesse Livermore]

Yes it favours the rich, because my DRK MNs can't be bought out from underneath me.

Yes, but only if you are the weakest link, which is your own responsibility NOT TO BE, if you want to run a secure MN place.

Also, it's not like you "lose your MN". You keep your SPR, you keep your server. It's just that your MN is temporarily excluded from the "club".

You can try again with +1 SPR sir, or you can monitor the DM Spread and reenter when the MARKET PRICE for a DM is more in your favour.

We haven't even scratched the surface here of what will be possible and how people will react.

With dynamic pricing my SPR MNs could be, repeatedly, by anyone with a few SPR more than me, so I may not even bother to begin with.

Your inaction (running an MN with an irresponsibly low amount of SPR) is met with the action / initiative of a newcomer who is willing to overbid you (he acts MORE responsible than you).
It is always good for the market and any distributed system when the ACTIVE people (who show initiative and responsibility) are REWARDED, and the INACTIVE people are PUNISHED.
It's as simple as that.

At least with DRK you can pool together with others and own a MN share. Nobody is going to go to the trouble though with SPR if it can be taken away by the next passing whale with deeper pockets than you and your partners.

You can "pool together" with everybody regardless what the underlying coin is. But is this a decentralized trustless action? No, in the contrary. Many things can go wrong, and the incentive for bad players to abuse any "pool" like agreement is here.

You will not be taken away by a whale. The amount of allowed SPR MNs will be very high, certainly in the thousands.
We will have something between 1000 and 10k Masternodes in Spreadcoin, that's for sure. Not less and probably not more.
A whale can't possibly own all the coins to kick out all the other MN owners.

Sure, he can probably kick out the MNs in the lower 50-100 ranks, but how is he going to kick out the MN owners in the middle or upper part of the spread?
(As an example let's assume a spread of SPR deposits between 500 SPR and 10k SPR per Masternode: yes the whale can kick the owner of a 500-600 SPR MN out, but not all the SPR in the world are going to kick the guy with the 10k SPR out of the club.
YES, he might kick the 10k SPR guy from rank 950 to rank 550, but he will still be safe! That's the point.)

Bingo bingo bingo. Agree 1000% here with George's
points.
 I would just add though that even if the 'weakest link' DM gets kicked out it's not like 'awe poor him' because theoretically if he can't afford to buy back in it's because price of SPR is going up (which he's still getting the benefit from by holding at least one SPR) due to others adding to their stash.
Again though, this board is trying to predict what happens in what will likely be a chaotic environment to start with, and IMO the only way of knowing if this is a better idea than DRK's static mn's is to try this out live.
JL

[defunctec]

Wait wait, your saying dynamic is for the rich but static is not?

Imagine this

Darkcoins MarketCap = $9,000,000,000. The cost of a DRk MN at this marketcap? around $340,000... Hey, poor people see you can just set a DRK MN up with your $340,000.

But you say SPR's method "favers the rich".

Edit: By the way, I'm pulling the dollar figures out my backside, but are not far off.

Yes it favours the rich, because my DRK MNs can't be bought out from underneath me.

With dynamic pricing my SPR MNs could be, repeatedly, by anyone with a few SPR more than me, so I may not even bother to begin with.

At least with DRK you can pool together with others and own a MN share. Nobody is going to go to the trouble though with SPR if it can be taken away by the next passing whale with deeper pockets than you and your partners.

Again i understand that you can be "taken out", but this will only happen to the opportunist's who seek as many MN's as they can with there current holdings.

So at the start someone will be able to make a masternode with 1spr, but someone can knock him off by having 2spr. Is that bad, no.

What about someone with 500spr in a MN? Well to be kicked from the network (at 3000 total slots in the list) there would need to be around 1.5million spr alocated to MN's.

To have 51% of the MN's you would need around 750,000 spr. Say 7 people had 51% of the coin supply between them (100,000spr each) and created MN's with those coins, its still not a monopoly.

7 heavily financially invested individuals, yes please.

So why not call it a 500 SPR requirement and a 3000 MN cap and leave it at that? What advantage does dynamic pricing bring?

This would lock down the list. No competition to enter the list once its full.
I don't like the sound of that.

It breads a whole new market place. Like miners jumping to different coins for profit (not the best example to give to yourself  ), spr holders will denominate their holdings to the minimum amount they can before getting kicked of the list. And if someone doesn't want all that stress they can just fund their accounts higher, say 1000 and be comfortable in the knowledge your masternode will be live for at least 2 hours   .

It also sets a "fair" market price for entry into the market, weather you like it or not its a free market(with 1 rule(max amount MN preset,thats it.)).

Will big money enter the market and buy up lots of spr? I hope so! I don't worry about a small group buying alot of coins  as i don't think its possible to monopolize the network (going with the figures i presented).

[AltcoinInvestor]

There's no pools that's a good think.

But if you don't have a GPU Farm you can't mine it either...

So what's the deal about being decentralization if you don't support who has no money to invest in a GPU Farm?

[georgem]

Again though, this board is trying to predict what happens in what will likely be a chaotic environment to start with, and IMO the only way of knowing if this is a better idea than DRK's static mn's is to try this out live.

We will soon be testing this, and if - as I predict - a MN requirement starts at 1 SPR, we don't even need to make the extensive tests on the testnet alone (where only a few people participate).
We can direcly go live (after preliminary tests on the testnet) because what is there to lose if you can run a MN with such a ridiculously low amount of 1 SPR?
It's not like we will have 1000 Masternodes setup in 1 week.... or ARE WE? Since they are so cheap? Holy Spreadonia!

The people themselves will decide how secure they think the development version now is, and how much SPR they want to have exposed.

Another thing that SPR could do completely different than DRK.

I could be wrong though, it makes sense to first test everything in a testnet, but that's the thing: you never get a real life situation out of a testnet, so it never is 100% reliable for debugging... darkcoin has shown this many many times)

[georgem]

This would lock down the list. No competition to enter the list once its full.
I don't like the sound of that.

It breads a whole new market place. Like miners jumping to different coins for profit (not the best example to give to yourself  ), spr holders will denominate their holdings to the minimum amount they can before getting kicked of the list. And if someone doesn't want all that stress they can just fund their accounts higher, say 1000 and be comfortable in the knowledge your masternode will be live for at least 2 hours   .

It also sets a "fair" market price for entry into the market, weather you like it or not its a free market(with 1 rule(max amount MN preset,thats it.)).

Will big money enter the market and buy up lots of spr? I hope so! I don't worry about a small group buying alot of coins  as i don't think its possible to monopolize the network (going with the figures i presented).

Exactly, it's so easy to spot a bad idea:

Does it allow for competition? Good idea.
Does it restrict competition? Bad idea.

Does it create decentralization? Good idea.
Does it create incentives for centralization? Bad idea.

We need market forces, not people who decide for us. Let market forces decide what is best for all of us. That's the spirit of the free market. Anarchistic but beneficial for everybody EXCEPT the central scrutinizers who want to rule over everybody else.  

[georgem]

There's no pools that's a good think.

But if you don't have a GPU Farm you can't mine it either...

So what's the deal about being decentralization if you don't support who has no money to invest in a GPU Farm?

Buy just 1 GPU and let it mine when your PC is on. Have 1000s of people do that.

Have Mr.Spread's Brain find solutions to reduce CPU/GPU hashrate SPREAD.

[defunctec]

This would lock down the list. No competition to enter the list once its full.
I don't like the sound of that.

It breads a whole new market place. Like miners jumping to different coins for profit (not the best example to give to yourself  ), spr holders will denominate their holdings to the minimum amount they can before getting kicked of the list. And if someone doesn't want all that stress they can just fund their accounts higher, say 1000 and be comfortable in the knowledge your masternode will be live for at least 2 hours   .

It also sets a "fair" market price for entry into the market, weather you like it or not its a free market(with 1 rule(max amount MN preset,thats it.)).

Will big money enter the market and buy up lots of spr? I hope so! I don't worry about a small group buying alot of coins  as i don't think its possible to monopolize the network (going with the figures i presented).

Exactly, it's so easy to spot a bad idea:

Does it allow for competition? Good idea.
Does it restrict competition? Bad idea.

Does it create decentralization? Good idea.
Does it create incentives for centralization? Bad idea.

We need market forces, not people who decide for us. Let market forces decide what is best for all of us. That's the spirit of the free market. Anarchistic but beneficial for everybody EXCEPT the central scrutinizers who want to rule over everybody else.  

I have an idea for a meme! A stock floor covered in mini SPR spermmen all screaming to buy their "share" in the MN list.

[NoobKidOnTheBlock]

I'm loving this discussion on the DM's and the way that people are portraying for it to work I really am glad to see this type of work and ideas and concepts being put towards such a great project Kudos

[georgem]

I have an idea for a meme! A stock floor covered in mini SPR spermmen all screaming to buy their "share" in the MN list.

Brilliant. I thought about SPR spermmen and have a few related memes in preparation. I promise you will laugh your ass off.
I will use those spermmen (half a SPR logo, 1 logo = 2 sperm men) to show how they spread around, how they solo mine (and show how "perverted" it is when bitcoin pool mines), how they become masternodes, etc...
This is going to be so much fun.

[defunctec]

I have an idea for a meme! A stock floor covered in mini SPR spermmen all screaming to buy their "share" in the MN list.

Brilliant. I thought about SPR spermmen and have a few related memes in preparation. I promise you will laugh your ass off.
I will use those spermmen (half a SPR logo, 1 logo = 2 sperm men) to show how they spread around, how they solo mine (and show how "perverted" it is when bitcoin pool mines), how they become masternodes, etc...
This is going to be so much fun.

Awesome! I can't wait! I will spread some love once you've posted

[georgem]

I have an idea for a meme! A stock floor covered in mini SPR spermmen all screaming to buy their "share" in the MN list.

Brilliant. I thought about SPR spermmen and have a few related memes in preparation. I promise you will laugh your ass off.
I will use those spermmen (half a SPR logo, 1 logo = 2 sperm men) to show how they spread around, how they solo mine (and show how "perverted" it is when bitcoin pool mines), how they become masternodes, etc...
This is going to be so much fun.

Awesome! I can't wait! I will spread some love once you've posted

Currently and for the next few days I am working on darkcoin related cartoons for the upcoming 1 year anniversary of darkcoin.
When this is finished, I will concentrate more on spreadcoin cartoons for a while. ;-)

[catotune]

Hmm... I think crouton might be correct - with variable pricing and a hard limit on MNs (let's say 1000), an early adopter whale could possibly monopolize the network. By investing in hundreds of MNs, she could rake in a bigger passive income than anyone else and re-invest those earnings into her MN network, making it increasingly harder for any latecomers to join in, especially if the price keeps rising (as we all expect it to!).

One thing I like about DRK's MN network is that I don't have to worry about getting kicked out - as long as I have 1000 DRK I am guaranteed a masternode. Yeah, it's expensive, but it's worry free. Nor do  I think that makes me lazy or inactive; by maintaining my MNs, I am providing mixing services as well as reducing coin supply. Even if a whale has 10x more MNs than me, I still have a slice of the pie.

On the other hand, screw it - this is an interesting experiment, and we won't know the answer until we give it a shot. DRK already has a fixed price MN system; SPR's system could show us what the alternative would look like, for better or for worse! 

[Tiger_BTC]

I have no VPS and can't participate in this game 
Is it possible to run a DM with my home PC ?

[georgem]

Hmm... I think crouton might be correct - with variable pricing and a hard limit on MNs (let's say 1000), an early adopter whale could possibly monopolize the network. By investing in hundreds of MNs, she could rake in a bigger passive income than anyone else and re-invest those earnings into her MN network, making it increasingly harder for any latecomers to join in, especially if the price keeps rising (as we all expect it to!).

Let's just look at it more closely.

So I am an early adopter and also have many servers in my control (which costs a lot of money).

I think I am a wise guy and start 1000 MN since they only cost me 1 SPR each. (lets forget for a moment that you will probably pay 30-50k $ a month for all those servers, not including the manpower to manage them)

What happens in the next minute:

A guy who is a little wiser than me, (but still pretty stupid) starts grabbing MN seats away by investing 2 SPR each.

But already we see wiser guys who invest 500 or 1000 SPR per MN because they have something called "foresight". They know that when they invest too little they will have to do everything again in short time.

Slowly new people enter the game and the price increases.

I don't doubt that for the first few days and weeks everybody will want to setup a MN basically for free, because you just have to rent a server. There are enough MN seats free for thousands of servers.

But watch what happens after ALL SEATS ARE OCCUPIED! 

This whole mechanism will work EXACTLY like you would expect it from mining: the first miners have it VERY EASY, they mine tons of blocks, until more and more people join the coin and start mining too... that's when the competition kicks in.

Let's make Masternodes play the game like everybody else has to.
Enough with those privileges and exceptionalism.