[ANN] SpreadCoin | True Decentralization (No Pools) | Testing New Masternodes

[defunctec]

I have no VPS and can't participate in this game 
Is it possible to run a DM with my home PC ?

VPS only cost $5 a month...

Not a problem

[defunctec]

Hmm... I think crouton might be correct - with variable pricing and a hard limit on MNs (let's say 1000), an early adopter whale could possibly monopolize the network. By investing in hundreds of MNs, she could rake in a bigger passive income than anyone else and re-invest those earnings into her MN network, making it increasingly harder for any latecomers to join in, especially if the price keeps rising (as we all expect it to!).

Let's just look at it more closely.

So I am an early adopter and also have many servers in my control (which costs a lot of money).

I think I am a wise guy and start 1000 MN since they only cost me 1 SPR each. (lets forget for a moment that you will probably pay 30-50k $ a month for all those servers, not including the manpower to manage them)

What happens in the next minute:

A guy who is a little wiser than me, (but still pretty stupid) starts grabbing MN seats away by investing 2 SPR each.

But already we see wiser guys who invest 500 or 1000 SPR per MN because they have something called "foresight". They know that when they invest too little they will have to do everything again in short time.

Slowly new people enter the game and the price increases.

I don't doubt that for the first few days and weeks everybody will want to setup a MN basically for free, because you just have to rent a server. There are enough MN seats free for thousands of servers.

But watch what happens after ALL SEATS ARE OCCUPIED! 

This whole mechanism will work EXACTLY like you would expect it from mining: the first miners have it VERY EASY, they mine tons of blocks, until more and more people join the coin and start mining too... that's when the competition kicks in.

Let's make Masternodes play the game like everybody else has to.
Enough with those privileges and exceptionalism.

Id also like to add that unlike mining it cannot become centralized due to the sheer amount of SPR you would need to be in position of monopoly.

[georgem]

And now let's make a more difficult example:

An early adopter whale is a little wiser and has 1 Million SPR in his control. (which already the distribution shows is impossible, but let's just continue.)

So what he does is, he creates 1000 MNs with 1000 SPR each. He's a darkcoiner gone Spreadcoin obviously.

Now if I am a newcomer, what can I do to enter the game?

Well, obviously I just have to invest 1001 or more SPR to take over one of the whales seats.

All other newcomers can do the same: they just have to invest just 1 SPR more than ANY SEAT they desire to overtake, and they can reduce any lower ranks by one!
Always kicking the last one out of the game, and reducing everyone below them 1 rank.

----

Probably the best way how you can setup your mutiple nodes will be to SPREAD them over multiple ranks.

Have one of them be very expensive, e.g. 5000 SPR, the next one 4500 SPR, then 4000 SPR, 3500 SPR, etc...
But still, all this will just help you to have a little bit more security against losing your seat, while maximizing your profit.
But you will NEVER be able to restrict newcomers from entering the market, and this is brilliant.

[defunctec]

And now let's make a more difficult example:

An early adopter whale is a little wiser and has 1 Million SPR in his control. (which already the distribution shows is impossible, but let's just continue.)

So what he does is, he creates 1000 MNs with 1000 SPR each. He's a darkcoiner gone Spreadcoin obviously.

Now if I am a newcomer, what can I do to enter the game?

Well, obviously I just have to invest 1001 or more SPR to take over one of the whales seats.

All other newcomers can do the same: they just have to invest just 1 SPR more than ANY SEAT they desire to overtake, and they can reduce any lower ranks by one!
Always kicking the last one out of the game, and reducing everyone below them 1 rank.

----

Probably the best way how you can setup your mutiple nodes will be to SPREAD them over multiple ranks.

Have one of them be very expensive, e.g. 5000 SPR, the next one 4500 SPR, then 4000 SPR, 3500 SPR, etc...
But still, all this will just server for you to have a little bit more security against losing your seat.
But you will NEVER be able to restrict newcomers from entering the market, and this is brilliant.

It is f*&%#@g brilliant!

Or we are bat shit crazy? Only the implementation and time will tell 

[georgem]

Now let's assume I am an angry whale who doesn't like all the newcomers who enter the game and kick my servers down to a lower rank, and possibly out of the game.

The only thing such a whale can do, is invest more SPR in his servers, but to do so, he will have to sacrifice a few of his seats!  

Suppose I have 1 Million SPR, and 1000 MN with 1000 SPR again. Very easy for newcomers to grab a seat, obviously.

Now, the moment I start securing my MNs by moving their SPR deposit up to say 10k, I will have to take those SPRs from somewhere, and since all my money is tied in my MNs, I will have to sacrifice some WEAK MNs, to create a few VERY STRONG MNs...

Maybe do a little bit of both... keep a few strong MNs nobody can touch... and play around with a few weak ones which constantly strive to stay alive but create a lot of profit if they succeed.

What DMs will basically do all the time is trying to STAY ALIVE, while having the best party of their life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_izvAbhExY

[georgem]

It is f*&%#@g brilliant!

Or we are bat shit crazy? Only the implementation and time will tell 

I am not sure, man... lol I feel a little bit weird, not sure if crazy or just maniacally euphoric. 

[Tiger_BTC]

I have no VPS and can't participate in this game 
Is it possible to run a DM with my home PC ?

VPS only cost $5 a month...

Not a problem

what the requirement of VPS do I need? like CPU,mem,disc space,brandwidth,etc.

[catotune]

Hmm... I think crouton might be correct - with variable pricing and a hard limit on MNs (let's say 1000), an early adopter whale could possibly monopolize the network. By investing in hundreds of MNs, she could rake in a bigger passive income than anyone else and re-invest those earnings into her MN network, making it increasingly harder for any latecomers to join in, especially if the price keeps rising (as we all expect it to!).

Let's just look at it more closely.

So I am an early adopter and also have many servers in my control (which costs a lot of money).

I think I am a wise guy and start 1000 MN since they only cost me 1 SPR each. (lets forget for a moment that you will probably pay 30-50k $ a month for all those servers, not including the manpower to manage them)

What happens in the next minute:

A guy who is a little wiser than me, (but still pretty stupid) starts grabbing MN seats away by investing 2 SPR each.

But already we see wiser guys who invest 500 or 1000 SPR per MN because they have something called "foresight". They know that when they invest too little they will have to do everything again in short time.

Slowly new people enter the game and the price increases.

I don't doubt that for the first few days and weeks everybody will want to setup a MN basically for free, because you just have to rent a server. There are enough MN seats free for thousands of servers.

But watch what happens after ALL SEATS ARE OCCUPIED! 

This whole mechanism will work EXACTLY like you would expect it from mining: the first miners have it VERY EASY, they mine tons of blocks, until more and more people join the coin and start mining too... that's when the competition kicks in.

Let's make Masternodes play the game like everybody else has to.
Enough with those privileges and exceptionalism.

I think you might have this backwards my friend. Having a fixed limit on MNs will ensure that only the richest can play. With DRK, sure the price isn't cheap - at today's prices it's about $1,680 for a MN - but you don't have to be continuously richer and richer to compete. Once you're in, you're in.

With 1000 fixed SPR MNs, you can bet a few rich people will own the majority. And once they're entrenched, they will be harder to dislodge, because they will keep receiving more MN income than anyone. Plus, if I'm right about the price, SPR in 6 months will be worth a lot more than it is today, and it will be even harder to get a spot in the top 1000 with each passing day, heavily favoring early adopters.

Having said all of that, I don't think anyone can know for sure what will happen. A part of me wants to see the variable price / fixed number MN system in the wild, despite my misgivings. I might just invest in 1 MN and make sure its balance stays high enough to stay in the game.

[defunctec]

Now let's assume I am an angry whale who doesn't like all the newcomers who enter the game and kick my servers down to a lower rank, and possibly out of the game.

The only thing such a whale can do, is invest more SPR in his servers, but to do so, he will have to sacrifice a few of his seats!  

Suppose I have 1 Million SPR, and 1000 MN with 1000 SPR again. Very easy for newcomers to grab a seat, obviously.

Now, the moment I start securing my MNs by moving their SPR deposit up to say 10k, I will have to take those SPRs from somewhere, and since all my money is tied in my MNs, I will have to sacrifice some WEAK MNs, to create a few VERY STRONG MNs...

Maybe do a little bit of both... keep a few strong MNs nobody can touch... and play around with a few weak ones which constantly strive to stay alive but create a lot of profit if they succeed.

Exactly! Deffo on the same page here...

MrSpread, are we anywhere close to correct here? Is what georgem and I are insinuating or are we completely off?

[Gumbork]

the spread is looking good

[defunctec]

I have no VPS and can't participate in this game 
Is it possible to run a DM with my home PC ?

VPS only cost $5 a month...

Not a problem

what the requirement of VPS do I need? like CPU,mem,disc space,brandwidth,etc.

https://www.vultr.com/pricing/

Click pricing -> monthly.
The 5$ one is more than enough.

But try to avoid Vultr and amazon server when you come to build a MN.
Be creative, dig deep to find a more independent VPS.
Most MN will be hosted on amazon and vultr=not good for decentralisation.

[georgem]

I think you might have this backwards my friend. Having a fixed limit on MNs will ensure that only the richest can play. With DRK, sure the price isn't cheap - at today's prices it's about $1,680 for a MN - but you don't have to be continuously richer and richer to compete. Once you're in, you're in.

With 1000 fixed SPR MNs, you can bet a few rich people will own the majority. And once they're entrenched, they will be harder to dislodge, because they will keep receiving more MN income than anyone. Plus, if I'm right about the price, SPR in 6 months will be worth a lot more than it is today, and it will be even harder to get a spot in the top 1000 with each passing day, heavily favoring early adopters.

Having said all of that, I don't think anyone can know for sure what will happen. A part of me wants to see the variable price / fixed number MN system in the wild, despite my misgivings. I might just invest in 1 MN and make sure its balance stays high enough to stay in the game.

There is a famous saying:

If you are camping and a bear attacks the camp, you don't have to be faster than the bear, you just have to be faster than the slowest camper.

The slowest camper is the weakest MN.
The bear is the newcomer.
All the other campers stay in the game, to see another day of profits.

Let that sink in for a second, because that's the basic principle why it will always be easy to secure your MN if you aren't greedy and have foresight.
And it will always be possible for newcomers to enter the market, because there will always be a slow greedy camper who ate too many sausages. ;-)
In this case it's in our favour that we are a greedy species, lol!

[luigi1111]

But you will NEVER be able to restrict newcomers from entering the market, and this is brilliant.

Now you guys are being daft. This is silly. It can be just as restrictive, likely even more, than having a fixed barrier to entry.

You also say that to be safe, you could just buy up (total supply / #of allowed nodes). You think it's reasonable for a "newcomer" to acquire between 1/3000th and 1/1000th of the total/current supply of a currency? Hint: it's not.

So far, I've not been convinced of much relative benefit of one system compared to the other, except for a variable system requiring more coding (whether that's a meaningful difference or not, I don't know).

It's simply the difference between choosing a max # of nodes and letting the market decide the barrier to entry, and choosing the barrier to entry and letting the market decide the max number or nodes. It's really not very different from my perspective.

[thelonecrouton]

And now let's make a more difficult example:

An early adopter whale is a little wiser and has 1 Million SPR in his control. (which already the distribution shows is impossible, but let's just continue.)

So what he does is, he creates 1000 MNs with 1000 SPR each. He's a darkcoiner gone Spreadcoin obviously.

Now if I am a newcomer, what can I do to enter the game?

Well, obviously I just have to invest 1001 or more SPR to take over one of the whales seats.

All other newcomers can do the same: they just have to invest just 1 SPR more than ANY SEAT they desire to overtake, and they can reduce any lower ranks by one!
Always kicking the last one out of the game, and reducing everyone below them 1 rank.

----

Probably the best way how you can setup your mutiple nodes will be to SPREAD them over multiple ranks.

Have one of them be very expensive, e.g. 5000 SPR, the next one 4500 SPR, then 4000 SPR, 3500 SPR, etc...
But still, all this will just server for you to have a little bit more security against losing your seat.
But you will NEVER be able to restrict newcomers from entering the market, and this is brilliant.

It is f*&%#@g brilliant!

Or we are bat shit crazy? Only the implementation and time will tell 

You're nuts.

With rising prices and dwindling supply that 1 extra SPR is going to cost you ever more dearly. Dynamic pricing is going to restrict newcomers entering the market, that's all it's going to achieve - the opposite of your stated goal of decentralisation.

Regular folk will take one look at how Spread's dynamic MN pricing favours the rich and walk away laughing. After all the hard work done so far to get the only truly decentralised PoW currency up and running you want to throw it away by handing half the block reward to the whales on a plate.

Guess what, you can cut a pretty good deal with a provider if you want to rent 100 VPS instances...

It's a vicious feedback loop for the small guy and the small guy is going to take his money elsewhere.

Still waiting for an answer to, "what advantages does this bring?" that doesn't involve nebulous blather about free markets...

Introducing another mechanism for the rich to profit at the expense of the poor is not a cunning plan for Spread. But if I haven't convinced anyone yet I'm never going to...

[georgem]

But you will NEVER be able to restrict newcomers from entering the market, and this is brilliant.

Now you guys are being daft. This is silly. It can be just as restrictive, likely even more, than having a fixed barrier to entry.

You also say that to be safe, you could just buy up (total supply / #of allowed nodes). You think it's reasonable for a "newcomer" to acquire between 1/3000th and 1/1000th of the total/current supply of a currency? Hint: it's not.

So far, I've not been convinced of much relative benefit of one system compared to the other, except for a variable system requiring more coding (whether that's a meaningful difference or not, I don't know).

It's simply the difference between choosing a max # of nodes and letting the market decide the barrier to entry, and choosing the barrier to entry and letting the market decide the max number or nodes. It's really not very different from my perspective.

But nothing is more restrictive than a fixed barrier to entry, don't you agree?
Nothing fuels the competition more than having the amount of AVAILABLE SEATS restricted.

Let me make an analogy:
Imagine a small village with two bakeries. Obviously the amount of breads that will be consumed by this village is limited.
Those two bakeries are already in competition, but they are lazy. Now if a new bakery enters the village and does a better job than the others, then this bakery will steal a big chunk of the market share of the competition.
And he deserves it. And atleast one of the other bakeries will have to close down, or what is this, charity? Do the taxpayers need to keep the lazy bakery alive or what?
But why does darkcoin think it's a good idea to open 1000s (unlimited amounts) of bakeries in this village? That does NOTHING for competition.
It's like letting everyone open a bakery (without reservation) and have the taxpayer pay for them, it's ridiculous!
Yes, everyone is allowed to start as a bakery, but the market will quickly and fiercely tell you if a) you are doing a good job, and b) if you are even NEEDED.

Again, we don't know yet what the best MAX AMOUNT of masternodes for Spreadcoin is going to be. (for this we will also need to know all the services that Spreadcoin is going to offer in the future)
But the premise of having masternodes fight it out among themselves regarding how much they are willing to pay for a seat is BRILLIANT.  

It always boggled my mind that with darkcoin you just make an initial investment, and can then see how your money grows. What is this wallstreet?

[thelonecrouton]

But nothing is more restrictive than a fixed barrier to entry, don't you agree?

Nothing except a constantly rising barrier. 

Nothing fuels the competition more than having the amount of AVAILABLE SEATS restricted.

Imagine a small village with two bakeries. Obviously the amount of breads that will be consumed by this village is limited.
Those two bakeries are already in competition, but they are lazy. Now if a new bakery enters the village and does a better job than the others, then this bakery will steal a big chunk of the market share of the competition.
And he deserves it.
But why does darkcoin think it's a good idea to open 1000s (unlimited amounts) of bakeries in this village? That does NOTHING for competition.
It's like letting everyone open a bakery (without reservation) and have the taxpayer pay for them, it's ridiculous!
Yes, everyone is allowed to start as a bakery, but the market will quickly and fiercely tell you if a) you are doing a good job, and b) if you are even NEEDED.

Again, we don't know yet what the best MAX AMOUNT of masternodes for Spreadcoin is going to be.
But the premise of having masternodes fight it out among themselves regarding how much they are willing to pay for a seat is BRILLIANT.  

It always boggled my mind that with darkcoin you just make an initial investment, and can then see how your money grows. What is this wallstreet?

The only competition is whoever has the deepest pockets.

[hashcash]

I think you might have this backwards my friend. Having a fixed limit on MNs will ensure that only the richest can play. With DRK, sure the price isn't cheap - at today's prices it's about $1,680 for a MN - but you don't have to be continuously richer and richer to compete. Once you're in, you're in.

With 1000 fixed SPR MNs, you can bet a few rich people will own the majority. And once they're entrenched, they will be harder to dislodge, because they will keep receiving more MN income than anyone. Plus, if I'm right about the price, SPR in 6 months will be worth a lot more than it is today, and it will be even harder to get a spot in the top 1000 with each passing day, heavily favoring early adopters.

Having said all of that, I don't think anyone can know for sure what will happen. A part of me wants to see the variable price / fixed number MN system in the wild, despite my misgivings. I might just invest in 1 MN and make sure its balance stays high enough to stay in the game.

There is a famous saying:

If you are camping and a bear attacks the camp, you don't have to be faster than the bear, you just have to be faster than the slowest camper.

The slowest camper is the weakest MN.
The bear is the newcomer.
All the other campers stay in the game, to see another day of profits.

Stupid question but in the greater scheme does this mean - The highest bidder puts in his/her 10,000 SPR  Mega DM up, everyone in between is safe and the DM at the bottom with let's say 1 SPR is the only one left blockless?

[georgem]

But nothing is more restrictive than a fixed barrier to entry, don't you agree?

Nothing except a constantly rising barrier.  

The (not necessarily) constantly rising barrier is for one seat only! (it might go down, if e.g. someone cashes out his MN)
Also, you need to understand that there is not ONE barrier that changes, it is a SPREAD! (This is too beautiful to be true, man)

It's up to you to decide if you want to pay ALOT of SPR to completely secure your MN,
or pay a little less SPR and be in the middle range of the SPREAD.
You decide your degree of security (against losing your seat)

We need to consider the fact, that ONLY the weakest link will have a hard time.
The farther away from the weakest link you are in your ranking, the more you can start feeling like a DARKCOIN masternode owner, and chill.
But it's gonna cost ya!  

Nothing fuels the competition more than having the amount of AVAILABLE SEATS restricted.

Imagine a small village with two bakeries. Obviously the amount of breads that will be consumed by this village is limited.
Those two bakeries are already in competition, but they are lazy. Now if a new bakery enters the village and does a better job than the others, then this bakery will steal a big chunk of the market share of the competition.
And he deserves it.
But why does darkcoin think it's a good idea to open 1000s (unlimited amounts) of bakeries in this village? That does NOTHING for competition.
It's like letting everyone open a bakery (without reservation) and have the taxpayer pay for them, it's ridiculous!
Yes, everyone is allowed to start as a bakery, but the market will quickly and fiercely tell you if a) you are doing a good job, and b) if you are even NEEDED.

Again, we don't know yet what the best MAX AMOUNT of masternodes for Spreadcoin is going to be.
But the premise of having masternodes fight it out among themselves regarding how much they are willing to pay for a seat is BRILLIANT.  

It always boggled my mind that with darkcoin you just make an initial investment, and can then see how your money grows. What is this wallstreet?

The only competition is whoever has the deepest pockets.

With deep pockets you can decide to play the game in one of two extremes (and everything in between):

1) Secure all your MNs with high amounts of SPR to make them virtually untouchable. You will make profit, but not as much as potentially possible. But you will be safe, making safe profit all day.
2) You have a lot of weakly backed MNs that create much profit, but are in such a low rank, that a more motivated MN owner might grab your "market share" away if you are not careful.

It will be like a spread.
To the right the secured expensive MNs.
To the left the constant dying and rebirthing of new MNs.
In the middle we have the MNs who are either on the way to become more secured, or more moving towards the meatgrinder because of GREED! It's their decision.

[georgem]

Stupid question but in the greater scheme does this mean - The highest bidder puts in his/her 10,000 SPR  Mega DM up, everyone in between is safe and the DM at the bottom with let's say 1 SPR is the only one left blockless?

Not really, you first need a newcomer who tries to take the weakling out. With a little luck the weakling can survive long enough to make a small profit!

It's important to understand that there is a SPREAD.

It's not like everybody is bidding for the same auction and the highest bidder wins.
It's more like the strongest MN and the weakest MN decide what the SPREAD will be like (where all the rest of the MN will be located in ascending order, depending on the amount of SPR they have invested.)

[Mr. Spread]

Consider the following two situations:
1. You have started a DarkCoin masternode, there were 800 masternodes at that time so you were receiving reward every 500 blocks. After some time there are 1600 masternodes and you receive reward 2x less frequently, to receive the same income you will now need to start another masternode and invest another 1000 DRK. Other people starting masternodes will affect you even if there is no limit on number of masternodes.
2. Imagine DarkCoin has a limit of 2000 masternodes and market-determined deposit amount. You are afraid that this mechanism will make it too expensive to run a masternode but instead it would make it cheaper than 1000 DRK in current situation since there are only 1777 masternodes.