Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile

[Nemo1024]

I don't think the Malaysians even have access to the black box.

The last time I heard about them, the flight data recorders of MH17 Boeing were being transferred to the Malaysians. That was almost one month ago. But after that, there has been no announcement from the Malaysians. They are refusing to say what was in the flight data recorders, and are not yet ready to release the information public.

I may have missed that announcement. Regardless of if they have it or not, what information do you expect to get from the black box that could potentially be useful to the public? Black boxes do not record the kind of information that would show how the plane was shot down. It is my understanding it only collects information about the performance of the plane (speed, altitude, fuel levels, engine performance, how the flaps are positioned, ect.).

There is a lot of useful data in the black boxes. There are two of them - one is the Cockpit Voice Recorder that records the following on separate tracks: pilot and co-pilot mics, ambient cockpit mic, the speech from both VHF radio trancievers. Then there is the Flight Data Recorder that records what you mentioned above, plus the cabin pressure and information about the radio transceiver engagement, and more. All that information is supplemented with a timestamp track, so the exact time of each event, as well as cross-referencing of the two boxes is possible down to millisecond.

If the plane was hit by a heat-seeking missile, you would first notice an engine failure (engines emit most heat and will get hit first), followed by loss of performance, but the cabin would probably remain intact. It would be interesting then to hear what the pilots had to say during those critical moments. Did they have time to transmit Mayday, mayday, mayday or Pan, pan, pan on 121.5. The tower would have picked that up (the withheld ATC tapes).

If the plane was hit by a BUK, you'd have loss of air pressure in the cabin, but the engines would probably still run for some time.

Finally if the cockpit was shot with 30mm armour-peirceing gunfire from a Mig, then the pilots would be dead within seconds, but the avionics would be intact. You'd also hear telling sound on the cabin ambient sound mic channel.

There is a lot of information that can help you reconstruct the events down to a millisecond, and the sequence and characteristics of events will determine what the cause was.

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[Pagan]

Images Show the Buk that Downed Flight MH17 Inside Russia, Controlled by Russian Troops

New evidence has been found that shows the Buk missile system that was used to shoot down MH17 on the 17th of July came from Russia, and was most likely operated by Russian soldiers. Using videos posted by locals in Russia’s Belgorod region back in June it has been possible to identify the Buk missile launcher seen in Ukraine on July 17th as part of a convoy of Buk missile launchers. It has also been possible to identify the Russian brigade the Buk is likely to have belonged to, and who may have operated the Buk missile launcher when it was in Ukraine.

The Buk launcher can be identified because of a number of features, including white markings on the left side side of its chassis, and what looks like the traces of a number that has been painted over. Here is a comparison of the Buk seen in previously unpublicised video taken in Russia on the 23rd of June with a well known image from Paris Match, which shows a Buk in Donetsk at 9am on July the 17th.

Numerous earlier studies of vehicles inside Ukraine has shown it has been standard practice for Russian forces to paint over the numbers on their vehicles before sending them into the Ukraine. In the Paris Match image, much of the remaining number has now been painted over. However, it is still possible to see the top curve of what was a “2” and the other two white marks. It’s important to note that these markings are in exactly the same positions on the Buk in both images.

Please find out more at:
https://bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/

[247crypto]

Images Show the Buk that Downed Flight MH17 Inside Russia, Controlled by Russian Troops

New evidence has been found that shows the Buk missile system that was used to shoot down MH17 on the 17th of July came from Russia,

Why they shot not other targets?

[needbmw]

Flight MH17 with a Boeing 777-200 operated by Malaysia Airlines broke up in the air probably as the result of structural damage caused by a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside.  This is mentioned  in the preliminary report on the investigation into the crash of MH17 that has been published today by the Dutch Safety Board. There are no indications that the MH17 crash was caused by a technical fault or by actions of the crew.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014/preliminary-report/1562/preliminary-report-points-towards-external-cause-of-mh17-crash#fasen

[deisik]

Flight MH17 with a Boeing 777-200 operated by Malaysia Airlines broke up in the air probably as the result of structural damage caused by a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside.  This is mentioned  in the preliminary report on the investigation into the crash of MH17 that has been published today by the Dutch Safety Board. There are no indications that the MH17 crash was caused by a technical fault or by actions of the crew.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014/preliminary-report/1562/preliminary-report-points-towards-external-cause-of-mh17-crash#fasen

My first assumption that Flight MH17 was shot down from a 30 mm gun fired by a Ukrainian plane gets confirmed...

[Nemo1024]

Flight MH17 with a Boeing 777-200 operated by Malaysia Airlines broke up in the air probably as the result of structural damage caused by a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside.  This is mentioned  in the preliminary report on the investigation into the crash of MH17 that has been published today by the Dutch Safety Board. There are no indications that the MH17 crash was caused by a technical fault or by actions of the crew.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014/preliminary-report/1562/preliminary-report-points-towards-external-cause-of-mh17-crash#fasen

My first assumption that Flight MH17 was shot down from a 30 mm gun fired by a Ukrainian plane gets confirmed...

Yes, that was my thought as well, when I read the report: "large number of high-energy objects".
Also: "penetrated the aircraft from outside". Which side? Both sides, as the imagery of entry/exit holes located on both sides of the cockpit seem to indicate?

The report manages to say a lot while revealing nothing specific.

[deisik]

Flight MH17 with a Boeing 777-200 operated by Malaysia Airlines broke up in the air probably as the result of structural damage caused by a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside.  This is mentioned  in the preliminary report on the investigation into the crash of MH17 that has been published today by the Dutch Safety Board. There are no indications that the MH17 crash was caused by a technical fault or by actions of the crew.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014/preliminary-report/1562/preliminary-report-points-towards-external-cause-of-mh17-crash#fasen

My first assumption that Flight MH17 was shot down from a 30 mm gun fired by a Ukrainian plane gets confirmed...

Yes, that was my thought as well, when I read the report: "large number of high-energy objects".
Also: "penetrated the aircraft from outside". Which side? Both sides, as the imagery of entry/exit holes located on both sides of the cockpit seem to indicate?

The report manages to say a lot while revealing nothing specific.

Bullets form a 30 mm aircraft autocannon would pierce through the hull of a civilian airliner like a hot knife through butter. In fact, this report is hiding the truth, since it is very simple to tell holes made by a bullet from holes made by shrapnel (by the traces left on the piercings)...

[needbmw]

Full report: http://cdnimg.rg.ru/pril/article/101/76/57/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

[picolo]

Flight MH17 with a Boeing 777-200 operated by Malaysia Airlines broke up in the air probably as the result of structural damage caused by a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside.  This is mentioned  in the preliminary report on the investigation into the crash of MH17 that has been published today by the Dutch Safety Board. There are no indications that the MH17 crash was caused by a technical fault or by actions of the crew.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014/preliminary-report/1562/preliminary-report-points-towards-external-cause-of-mh17-crash#fasen

My first assumption that Flight MH17 was shot down from a 30 mm gun fired by a Ukrainian plane gets confirmed...

Can confirmed it was shot air to air

[deisik]

Flight MH17 with a Boeing 777-200 operated by Malaysia Airlines broke up in the air probably as the result of structural damage caused by a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside.  This is mentioned  in the preliminary report on the investigation into the crash of MH17 that has been published today by the Dutch Safety Board. There are no indications that the MH17 crash was caused by a technical fault or by actions of the crew.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014/preliminary-report/1562/preliminary-report-points-towards-external-cause-of-mh17-crash#fasen

My first assumption that Flight MH17 was shot down from a 30 mm gun fired by a Ukrainian plane gets confirmed...

Can confirmed it was shot air to air

If the plane was shot by an air-to-air missile, there would be no "large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside", since these missiles are self-guided and would target a plane's engines. And in this case the plane wouldn't break up in the air instantaneously, meaning that the crew would be alive for some time (in fact, it could even land successfully). The fact that the crew died almost instantly leaves only two possibilities, the first being that the plane was hit next to the cockpit by a SAM, the second that the cockpit itself was pierced by an attacking plane autocanon...

[eXch]

I don't think it's somehow related to China

[Balthazar]

If the plane was shot by an air-to-air missile, there would be no "large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside", since these missiles are self-guided and would target a plane's engines.

Wrong.   There would be a "large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside", since these missiles are using Continuous-rod warhead.

P.S. I'm talking about R-27, R-60, R-73, AIM-7C/E/F, AIM-9D/G/H air-to-air missiles.

[deisik]

If the plane was shot by an air-to-air missile, there would be no "large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside", since these missiles are self-guided and would target a plane's engines.

Wrong. There would be "large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside", since these missiles are using Continuous-rod warhead.

P.S. I'm talking about R-27, R-60, R-73, AIM-7C/E/F, AIM-9D/G/H air-to-air missiles.

Wrong is you, and for pretty obvious reasons. These missiles are too weak (unlike SAMs) to finish off a plane as big as a Boeing-777 in an instant (as the case appears to be). The only way when this would be possible is if they hit directly the cockpit which is next to impossible, since, as I said, they are self-guided at working engines...

[Balthazar]

These missiles are too weak (unlike SAMs) to finish off a plane as big as a Boeing-777 in an instant.

Maybe, but these damages are similar to caused by the continuous-rod warhead..



In addition, there could be several attempts using the different weapons.

[deisik]

These missiles are too weak (unlike SAMs) to finish off a plane as big as a Boeing-777 in an instant.

Maybe, but these damages are similar to caused by the continuous-rod warhead..



In addition, there could be several attempts using different weapons.

In any case the crew wouldn't die in half a jiffy, and there would be some information on the voice recorder about the causes of the crash. But since we are told that there is no trace of danger on the voice recorder, we have only the option that the crew died instantaneously (provided we are not lied to, in the first place)...

[lemfuture]

dutch should make ukrainian pay.
cause this make sense

[deisik]

This photo of the cockpit remains has been posted many times already



Here is a full resolution image. By the shape of the inlet holes it is clearly visible that the cockpit was pierced by the objects round in the cross section, which correspond in size to a 30 mm plane canon bullets (shells)...

[Schleicher]

Full report: http://cdnimg.rg.ru/pril/article/101/76/57/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

Here's the official link:
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

[txbtc]

Based on the pictures I have seen there were two dead pilots, rapid de-pressurization or not. They are designed to shred the aircraft; taking out hydraulics, electronics, comprising the structural integrity of the aircraft, etc

[romerun]

according to my source, MH370 was also shot down, and staged as crashed/disappeared.