Does God judge the nations?

[BADecker]

If god was real, I guess he/she/it would judge the nations that don't adhere to his/her/its respective religion. So I guess the Christian god judges the islamic countries, and vice versa, for example. I thin it's a bad system, because it's based on hate and intolerance.

God judges the nations according to His conditions. Why? He created it all. It is His right. He is the only One Who can do it justly because He is the only One Who knows what everything is all about - 42. Be afraid. God is the only One Who understands what it is all about. Seek Him and His forgiveness. You will be fully rewarded because He is a God of love.

[BADecker]

All questions about "Judgement" are odd, if your religions god is so benevolent why would he feel the need to judge? everyone one has at least one redeeming characteristic. and to pass judgement on an entire nation because of the ideologies and thoughts of their leaders is a bit harsh especially if these people have been indoctrinated/brainwashed (Eg North Korea, Nazi Germany)

Judgment by God is based on reality.

The entire universe was set up as a perpetual motion machine, based on certain universal laws. The basic, number one universal law is, "Love God above all things." The second is, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Only God understands how it works clearly.

Adam and Eve were the first to break these two basic laws. All others follow in their footsteps. The only One who kept these laws was Jesus. He could do so because He was sent by God and with His power. This is also the reason that Jesus could restore the perpetualness of the universe long enough to find out which people are on God's side and which are against God.

People should be destroyed immediately following some "sin" that they do, the first time that they break one of the two universal, basic laws above. They are not destroyed because God has forced love and mercy into the universe through Jesus.

When God waits patiently for a nation to turn to Him, is He wrong in withdrawing His support from them when, after a long time, it becomes evident that they will not accept His support and do what is right? He owns it all! His judgment is done in righteousness and truth, and in long suffering and patience. Those who carry out the destruction of ungodly nations, do so at the command and behest of a righteous God.

[noviapriani]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

And  your objection to discussing Noah and the flood is that he is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale, since you did not object to discussing that?

How hard is it for you to understand that I feel the bible is a book of folk lure..with perhaps some vague truths and other long forgotten lure and some just plain fairy tales.  I really dont give a shit about parsing which is which in the entire book. It is most likely that none of it is pure historical truth.  We cant even agree on how things happened last year when we have it on video, so the odds of a 2000 year old book translated in dozens of languages being "truth" is pretty much zero.

So, not answering the question regarding what God did during the flood in Noah's time because it is a 'fable' is just a dodge.

Thought so.

[zolace]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

[BADecker]

Hmm.   Seeing there were no Christians before the book of Acts, pretty neat trick, eh?Might check again - who is God giving instructions to in that book?

Well, actually, in the Garden of Eden, after Adam and Eve sinned, and God was walking in the Garden in the cool of the day, guess what form God was walking in, since God is a Spirit? He was walking in the form of a pre-Incarnate Jesus. Whenever you see the term "the Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament, you are looking at Jesus, Who is God in human form, even though He was not yet born to do His work on the cross.

[Rigon]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

And  your objection to discussing Noah and the flood is that he is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale, since you did not object to discussing that?

How hard is it for you to understand that I feel the bible is a book of folk lure..with perhaps some vague truths and other long forgotten lure and some just plain fairy tales.  I really dont give a shit about parsing which is which in the entire book. It is most likely that none of it is pure historical truth.  We cant even agree on how things happened last year when we have it on video, so the odds of a 2000 year old book translated in dozens of languages being "truth" is pretty much zero.

So, not answering the question regarding what God did during the flood in Noah's time because it is a 'fable' is just a dodge.

Thought so.

I am saying that if that shit in the bible actually were true...then your god is a murderer.  Can you fit that simple sentence into your  brain?   Noahs flood, the Israelites, anything you can come up with......the stories in the bible are not reality.  But that aside....if the bible stories were true...then the christian god was clearly a big-time murderer in the OT days.

[Slark]

Everytime I see 'religious' topic here on forum, or wherever in general there is fighting. Always. How can you people can't understand that you know NOTHING of GOD or greater power. Imagine ants talking about their gods it is funny for you? That is what we all are. We can only repeat some words people before us write or say without real proofs. Just lieve good life and it would be enough for you or your God.

I think this is part of how religions work. Religions are concepts that people adopt. They are convinced that the teachings of their respective religion are real. Yet, they can't prove them. They'll never be able to! And yet they feel the urge to convince other people that their religion is the 'right' one. It's a vicious circle that can't be broken, I guess...

It is saddening really. People waste time arguing over uncertain things when they can put their efforts in some more constructive way. We can make this world better! For everyone here and now. Not after our death.

[BADecker]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=734119.msg8315130#msg8315130.

[zolace]

Well, trying to follow this but it seems to be going in circles... anyway if you are trying to discuss something from God or about God and you are using today's dictionary definitions, you are automatically in error...

G1484

ἔθνoς

ethnos

eth'-nos

Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The nation is just a group of people, today's definition is the border that encompasses a nation, God actually doesn't see it that way, he sees it as groups of people, basically families.

You guys touched on abortion for a moment... search the Scriptures and find out what happened to those nations who killed their children... as a practice or a common thing. (not pleasant)

and just because you think you are enlightened, just realize that those people also thought they were enlightened.

And as far as murder goes, the Scriptures also are pretty explicit on what constitutes murder and what does not...

now the great what-if...

if there is a God and you stand in judgment, will you have the correct answers?

Now if you run this backwards, the Scriptures do contain the correct answers...

and how would they do that unless there was a reason.

For a judging...

and if there is a judging, there is a judge.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works

well the Bible actually contains numerous books and you will be judged by what is written in those books...

and catch the word dead... the dead are judged, not the living.
Just like Jesus told the man who said first let me go bury my father and Jesus told him let the dead bury the dead...
so even though you may be breathing, God may consider you already dead.

And even though I do find it fascinating, when you understand all of the prophecies or at least the vast majority of them, who is who and what will be happening and where it will be happening and who is involved and who is not involved... a few more things fall into place and we may be finding out relatively soon whether or not all of this is true.

And sadly there are no mulligans...

and also, I really no longer care... if someone wants to learn, I will teach them all day long, if not, it's not worth my time to argue, so they are on their own and I will not look back.

anyone who wants to study scriptures shouldn't follow a man, church, or organization exclusively in my opinion except as a basic outline to compare what others have also concluded over long periods of time. It isn't an easy thing but any knowledge has to come a personal quest

[BADecker]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

Answer 1.  Who gives a shit and what does it matter?  You believe your god instructed people to murder anyone who didnt believe in him.  Thats what is says in black and white in Deuteronomy.  Great god huh? 

Answer 2.  A make believe man cant actually give instructions.

See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=734119.msg8315130#msg8315130.

[Rigon]

It really doesnt matter if they are true or not....the only thing I am commenting on is that either a) if god exists and the bible is correct, then he is a murderer, or b) if god doesnt exist and the stories in the bible are manmade.....then the fictional God character is a murderer in the OT.

[BADecker]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

God always existed. What this means is, the place where God lives is so extremely different from this universe that there is no way to compare anything in this universe with God's Heavenly Home. Even the notion eternity is something of this universe. God doesn't need eternity to exist. Eternity is simply a tool that He uses. However, we are so weak that eternity is something great for us, just like life.

Regarding God's vengeful destruction he does of the nations, see: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=734119.msg8315130#msg8315130.

[BADecker]

I think it depends on the god in question (or the supposedly god in question). If they are nice gods they'll most likely only ask their followers to adhere to certain rules or principles. I don't think they'd judge states or nations in general, but rather individual people, according to the things they've done. But then again, there may be 'evil' gods who demand to be the only god.

Many people think there is more than One God. The reason is that we have so little understanding about the complexity and operations of the universe. Our universe is so extremely complex, that even if there were many gods putting it in place in a form of creation, they would have to act as ONE to avoid inconsistencies that would have kept it from being brought into existence. Hence, ONE GOD.

[BADecker]

None of us actually believes that all killing of a human being is murder.  True?  So, what makes this murder?

One dark moonlit night a cowboy was sleeping in a hotel room, a luxury he wasn't often able to afford. In the middle of the night, something awakened him. In the dim moonlight streaming in through the window, he saw a hand rising up at the foot of his bed. Carefully he reached over and picked up his revolver, and shot the hand. He still limps, to this day.

We often initially believe things that are not the truth.

[enhu]

I swear to God, he don't exist!  
Christians and Catholics are very much different. but they do celebrate last supper on the first Friday of the month at 8:30AM. -- yep last supper.

[BADecker]

Because taking another humans life is murder...
just because someone is evil does not mean they have to be killed, every civilized country recognizes this and as such have these things called Jails.

So, is killing someone in self defense or defense of your family, when he is going to murder you or your family member, really murder? Just be sure that his intent is to murder.

[BADecker]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

But, lets see how far we go - taking the position (for arguement sake) that it is indeed the Creator giving the instructions to eliminate these nations (nations, mind you, involved in great evil according to the text), how is it murder?

Deuteronomy was attributed to Moses according to the bible.  Jesus himself says Moses wrote it and that people should believe the words.

 "For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me (See Deut. 18:15-18). But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:46-47).

So jesus is saying that Moses is right in Deuteronomy...and jesus is lord....no???

Yes, Jesus is right about Moses.  And yes, Moses words are from God.   And therefore.....?

Of course, Moses murdered that Egyptian before he was called to lead the Israelites out of Egypt.

It has to do with the need and the attitude of the heart. Murder isn't right, but neither is idly sitting by and letting someone murder you.

[BADecker]

Have you ever thought that the bible could just be a big collection of fables?
Y'know, stories with a moral message behind them? i mean it makes sence doesnt it, they follow so many tropes of fairy tales "There is a big bad who is watching you so be good".
actually its kinda like Father Christmas/Santa/Your regional variant in a way "Be good or you wont get presents" > "Be good or you go to hell"

The few people who are Bible readers and listeners on a regular basis, and think like this, have forgotten that the whole purpose of the Bible is so that people will be informed about the salvation that God offers through Jesus. Everything that happens in life and in this universe will be destroyed someday, and someday soon. When this universe is finally destroyed, it will never be remembered or brought to mind in the New Universe that is coming from God. That is why Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last. There is no middle. Everything is Jesus, the Christ. All those who are found in Him will be with Him forever, and He is in God.

[BADecker]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

There is a difference between murder and vengeance, self-defense, extermination, and simply following God's orders. What's interesting is that God doesn't order anything in today's world that is not written in the Bible.

[BADecker]

Everytime I see 'religious' topic here on forum, or wherever in general there is fighting. Always. How can you people can't understand that you know NOTHING of GOD or greater power. Imagine ants talking about their gods it is funny for you? That is what we all are. We can only repeat some words people before us write or say without real proofs. Just lieve good life and it would be enough for you or your God.

This is a good post. The only answer is that understanding comes to people who fill themselves on the Word of God, the Bible.