Does God judge the nations?

[zolace]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

[BADecker]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

Believing in a different god is having a different faith.  Believing anything differently means having a different faith. It is not an error.  Deuteronomy says (God to Moses) kill people who worship other gods.  Worshiping other gods means your faith is different.  How many ways do I have to explain something so simple to you?

Ah, you are saying this is an objective truth that transcends what humans think?  Hmm, interesting.So, what is this source of absolute truth?

The absolute truth is found in God. Love God above all things, and your neighbor as yourself. Sometimes loving God above all things might include destroying other people. Sometimes destroying them might be the best thing you can do for them. but be darn sure that you KNOW that it is the best.

[sana8410]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least giver yourself a chance. Turn to God.

why dont you tell us the context in which an instruction to kill women and children for a belief in another god is OK?    Can you do that or will you do the normal thing and allude to some hidden context in some scripture whereby we are supposed to use our ESP to figure out exactly what you might be referring to?  I really dont need a response like...."you clearly ignored the context in Chapter/verse" orthe above ":note that you refuse to consider context".  Ive heard you say shit like that now for days without actually ever explaining the context that might make murdering people OK.   Tell us the context where killing women and children for a belief is OK and dont simply allude to it.  When is it OK for me to put my neighbor to death for believing in another god?  Why was it OK for people to do it back then?

If context matters so much, why have you not yet shared the context that can make killing others for their beliefs acceptable?  This seems to be the thrust of your argument...so fucking make it already!!!  I anxiously await a detailed description of the exact context that makes it OK to kill people for their beliefs.

I would like to - and thus my questions to you as to what makes somethiing murder.  

Are you saying humans are more than just another type of animal?  Your responses certainly demonstrate that you do think so, regardless of your 'offical position'.

Your entire childish argument revolves around everyone believing ..... "If The Bible is True..."

You refuse to acknowledge that The Bible has been proved to be nothing but a sack of shit.

Only a mentally and emotionally  like you continues debate using The Bible as if it were relevent.

You can not use one fairy tales to prove another fairy tale real.

I know that you,refuse to understand that fact, but you are the only person in the room who is so utterly stupid to refuse to accept it.

[BADecker]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least giver yourself a chance. Turn to God.

why dont you tell us the context in which an instruction to kill women and children for a belief in another god is OK?    Can you do that or will you do the normal thing and allude to some hidden context in some scripture whereby we are supposed to use our ESP to figure out exactly what you might be referring to?  I really dont need a response like...."you clearly ignored the context in Chapter/verse" orthe above ":note that you refuse to consider context".  Ive heard you say shit like that now for days without actually ever explaining the context that might make murdering people OK.   Tell us the context where killing women and children for a belief is OK and dont simply allude to it.  When is it OK for me to put my neighbor to death for believing in another god?  Why was it OK for people to do it back then?

If context matters so much, why have you not yet shared the context that can make killing others for their beliefs acceptable?  This seems to be the thrust of your argument...so fucking make it already!!!  I anxiously await a detailed description of the exact context that makes it OK to kill people for their beliefs.

Do you understand the concept of family? Look at the mafia, for example.

If you kill off the parents because God instructs you to, because they won't accept God, you better be ready to completely brainwash the children into not accepting their parents. If you don't, they will rise up someday, and revert to their parents' faulty beliefs, and kill off you and your whole family. The context is God. And additional context is self-defense.

[BADecker]

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

You speak something dangerous here. Why and How? You might love God and other people with all your heart. But put it into practice by not paying your income taxes any longer. The bankers are using your tax money to destroy peoples and nations around the world. And it is partially your fault 'cause you help support the bankers through your income taxes.

If God destroys the America for their vicious cruelty expressed through their support of the bankers, you won't survive either.

In the event you don't fall into the above, American classification, check out and be sure that whoever you are doesn't fit some nation.

Palestine is having problems as a nation, not as individuals.

[BADecker]

Your entire childish argument revolves around everyone believing ..... "If The Bible is True..."

You refuse to acknowledge that The Bible has been proved to be nothing but a sack of shit.

Only a mentally and emotionally  like you continues debate using The Bible as if it were relevent.

You can not use one fairy tales to prove another fairy tale real.

I know that you,refuse to understand that fact, but you are the only person in the room who is so utterly stupid to refuse to accept it.

The philosophical writings of the Bible fit people better than any other writings. There is a far larger variety of philosophy in the Bible than anywhere else. So far, everything in the Bible has proven to be true.

If you consider the Bible to be "nothing but a sack of shit," then you are expressing that people are "nothing but a sack of shit." This is true about people. The Bible is different, because the whole idea of the Bible is to give people a way out of being shitty, through salvation by Jesus.

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

And nations are made up of people, yes?  And the nation is affected by the type of people that make it up, yes? Psalm 9

[Rigon]

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

[noviapriani]

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

What fascinates me is how you dodge questions, and ignore context. Perhaps you are feeling awkward also by your unintentional confession that humans are more than merely animals?

[zolace]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

And nations are made up of people, yes?  And the nation is affected by the type of people that make it up, yes? Psalm 9

What do you propose? we make people follow the Bible like in the fanatical muslim country's. Relax, God will use the country's as he sees fit even if everyone doesn't believe

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

And nations are made up of people, yes?  And the nation is affected by the type of people that make it up, yes? Psalm 9

What do you propose? we make people follow the Bible like in the fanatical muslim country's. Relax, God will use the country's as he sees fit even if everyone doesn't believe

I am not proposing anything.  The thread is simply about God judging the nations.

[zolace]

Some interesting words in Jeremiah where God defines what He would do as evil. Maybe people get caught up in thinking everything God does is good, instead working toward a good

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? said the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them.

[noviapriani]

Some interesting words in Jeremiah where God defines what He would do as evil. Maybe people get caught up in thinking everything God does is good, instead working toward a good

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? said the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them.

Evil is used in two different ways even by us today.  A family loses their house in a lighting storm fire, someone may bewail that befell the family.  But, they are not using it in the same way as a family losing their house because of arson.

What has been under discussion is moral evil, rather than simply a calamity, judgement or such (as I believe you are referring to).

[BADecker]

Some interesting words in Jeremiah where God defines what He would do as evil. Maybe people get caught up in thinking everything God does is good, instead working toward a good

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? said the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them.

Evil is used in two different ways even by us today.  A family loses their house in a lighting storm fire, someone may bewail that befell the family.  But, they are not using it in the same way as a family losing their house because of arson.

What has been under discussion is moral evil, rather than simply a calamity, judgement or such (as I believe you are referring to).

Check out Ezekiel 28:11-19, Ezekiel is talking to the king of Tyre, but he is really talking to Satan. When you put this together with all the other things that the Bible says about Satan, we see that Satan was trying to take over control, wrest it from God.

Now, for Satan to be as good (capable) as God, he had to create something. But there was nothing left to create, because God had already created everything. There was only ONE thing left that Satan could create that God had not created. That thing was destruction. This is why Satan is called "Destroyer" in the Revelation, in both Greek and Hebrew - Apollyon and Abaddon.

The point is, the only way God could overcome Satan is that He had to take control of "destruction," taking it away from Satan. This is the thing God has done, through Jesus. God doesn't like the idea of destruction. But He is using it better than its creator, Satan.

Ultimately, God will use it to destroy Satan. Then He will use it to destroy all the wickedness that Satan caused. All those, both people and angels, who follow Satan and his ideals will be destroyed by God, as well. Finally, God will use destruction to destroy itself, and there won't be any destruction any longer. This will come about when the New Heavens and New Earth spoken about in the Revelation, finally come into being, after the final judgment.

[noviapriani]

If one goes by the Bible, in many passages it is clear that God can do no moral evil.  So, when it comes to something we do not like, one either rejects the message of the Bible, or accepts it.  But to say the Bible is true, and thus God a murderer (as suggested by one in this thread) is foolish.  That is just abstaining from logic, and ignoreing context.

[zolace]

If one goes by the Bible, in many passages it is clear that God can do no moral evil.  So, when it comes to something we do not like, one either rejects the message of the Bible, or accepts it.  But to say the Bible is true, and thus God a murderer (as suggested by one in this thread) is foolish.  That is just abstaining from logic, and ignoreing context.

Define the message then, i would say Christ is the message. Looking at that Jeremiah verse in 110 it says I will repent of the evil i thought to do. So another message is there is good and evil, if everything works toward good (as the Bible states) then everything would include evil. I won't try and read more into it than that, just seeing what i read. I also won't try to figure it all out, no one can

[BADecker]

If one goes by the Bible, in many passages it is clear that God can do no moral evil.  So, when it comes to something we do not like, one either rejects the message of the Bible, or accepts it.  But to say the Bible is true, and thus God a murderer (as suggested by one in this thread) is foolish.  That is just abstaining from logic, and ignoreing context.

This is such a difficult thing to understand and say. But here goes. Remember that at the Creation, God said that He saw everything that He had created, and it was good. God loved His creation.

When wickedness was found to have entered the universe through Satan, God had a choice to make. That choice was to destroy it all, or else to save it somehow.

The choice was to save it. God sent His Son, Jesus, Who in the power of God, took the God's punishment for man. Jesus could do this, because He became a man, as well as being God.

God did a trick. He injected Himself into the universe, into the form of a man - Jesus - so that multitudes of people could be saved. It cost Jesus a lot - pain and death on the cross, along with the punishment that every person would have received for the evil that each individual does.

Now that we understand this, where is the righteousness and where is the evil? God has turned evil into righteousness through His Son, Jesus.

[noviapriani]

Of course, if there be no God, if we are just animals, highest on earth as it is, what does murder mean even?

But, within us all there is something that testifies that God exists.  Many times we choose to try and silence that testimony (for example - questions about murder get ignored).

In Revelations, you have people crying out to the mountains to hide themselves from the Creator - rather than repent.  It is rarely an issue of evidence, but rather of will.

[Daniel91]

If one goes by the Bible, in many passages it is clear that God can do no moral evil.  So, when it comes to something we do not like, one either rejects the message of the Bible, or accepts it.  But to say the Bible is true, and thus God a murderer (as suggested by one in this thread) is foolish.  That is just abstaining from logic, and ignoreing context.

I agree with you.
God gave freedom and free choice to the people.
So, they are free to do whatever they want.
If people follow God's directions and ask for His help, He will support.
So, Bible is the true but people are killing other people, not God.
In fact, 10 great commandments are basic moral rules for over 3 or 4 thousands years, much before modern human lows.

[noviapriani]

 I agree that Paul says that, for those that love God, all things work together for good (and that would include evil).

But, its another thing to say that God Himself would do something morally evil.  Apart from it not making sense (it would mean there is a Being higher than God Himself - CS Lewis' Mere Christianity actually touches upon this)....

Apart from that, there is the plain reading of scripture that God does not do moral evil.