Unobtanium In-House Exchange

[IMZ]

Trade 67: 25 Uno for .3825 Bic -- discounted Uno.

Let there be Project Hoover!

[IMZ]

Ian and I are not in charge.

Ian is checkin' out http://coinspark.org. All opinions and information welcomed. DVC is, as a project, rock solid at this second. Long-timers recall that it began as a non-cryptographic Register.

A thought: 1,000 coins each worth 1 oz silver? (rather than 500 worth 2?)

m

[Benefactor]

A thought: 1,000 coins each worth 1 oz silver? (rather than 500 worth 2?)

m

I like the idea.  We could use a few more to hopefully inspire more trading velocity.  We're like a half-missing step function right now.

Advantages:

- More coins
- Lower cost per coin
- Could inspire velocity
- More intuitive
- Easier to calculate
- Easier to obtain
- More people included
- Can breakup current DVC into more pieces
- More trades

Disadvantages:

- More coins
- Claim of most expensive crypto asset or whatever is muted
- Change of system
- Not the original people agreed to
- A few might not even know in a timely manner

-----

What are other advantages/disadvantages?

I vote ok, but I'm much more interested in the new record-keeping system.  New suggestions on that?

What is SparkBit?  Got links?

[IMZ]

http://coinspark.org

Quick background to the above:

I think it was BItcoin National who fired the link to me. I hit the 'Go' button on the Windows download, Benefactor -- wham! 20 mins later, got 'Sparkbits' wallet.

Ian is checkin' it out today. All other suggestions welcome.

[IMZ]

Tee hee, ‘half missing-step function’ is funny.

Across the crypto realm – gonna finally say this out loud – we see fatigue and sharp tempers. And dropping prices.

Meanwhile, here on Un-Ex, we have fumbled from (minor) success to (minor) success. We now have thousands of dollars of DVC and other ‘instruments’ in play, and much much more will follow.

Exchange collapses have made the notion of an ‘unhackable’ exchange much less silly.

So, let’s make the DVC ‘transition’ a chance to explain and involve newcomers, sort out some bugs, and position ourselves (equity DVC!) for the halving.

[IMZ]

Un-Ex Daily Update    25/2/2015    [Western Australia – a half a day ahead of the U.S.]      
            
Un-Ex Trade Tracker    | Tech Support thread for UNO newcomers         
            
Unobtanium 'solid': .0160/.0142      
            
Markets: Cryptsy; Bittrex; Bleutrade; AllCrypt; Coinbroker            
            
Trusted Traders:   on IndiaMikeZulu.com and on the Un-Ex Trade Tracker         
            
DVC: 8.75kg UNO            
DVC how-to: Using DVC in the NXT Wallet (PDF, 532KB download)            
            
'Core-tanium' (see the list on the Un-Ex Trade Tracker):            
This is BTC pledged as anti-dump ammo (fiat pledges will be added). Holding address: 1DG6gjrZ6XyzSUBA6GBrhra5FSQwkiQy7y            
            

• IMZ Mark   0.25   
• Benefactor   0.1   
• Sirsmokesalot   0.32   
• Bitcoin Charlie   1.0   

      
            
Liquidity Pledges (see the list on the Trade Tracker):            

• Local Chapter - Australia            
  
  • cragv, $100
  • IMZ Mark: $AU 250 (by March 31st)
• Local Chapter - USA            
  
  • Bitcoin Charlie, $500
• International            
  
  • Bitcoin National, 100 Uno @ $2.25 (Paypal)

            
            
'Frozen' UNO:            

• Guyinanutshell, 100 Uno, until May 1, 2015, @ uUB5igPeTMUXxfAqMVQ15FidQmtomemJbL (at least to practise setting up separate wallets for equity DVC)

            

[IanRidgwell]

Regarding NXT Wallet.

We 'chose' NXT because it was close at hand, I had NXT to seed the launch and experience with the wallet.

It was always on the cards that we may have to move to something else, for any number of reasons (It wasn't doing the job, NXT price hike, something better comes along etc...) with a potential, though unlikely end of launching a custom coin to suit needs.

CoinSpark looks fine to me. It looks like the revitalisation of Bitcoin colors, which I was watching for quite some time before It seemed to dwindle out of public consciousness.

I can't think of another viable platform except Etherium which has been looking to a possible March release for a while now. I'd like to see the platform cut its teeth before I moved any real project to it.

Lightweight wallets appeal to me. Benefactor might have a problem with more than half an hour but it took me over 6 hours and two attempts to get the UNO blockchain down the first time so I'd appreciate not having to synch another Bitcoin block chain (Which is anywhere up to a fortnight if I can't move it from the  itcon wallet across).

Coinspark API means that if the project needs some development in the future its available in a few languages. Who knows what the future may hold.

There is also COunterParty and Maidsafe neither of which I have any experience with or any holdings in. I believe we likely all have a smidgeon of BTC to work with the coinspark transaction fee's.

[cragv]

Regarding using NXT vs. Bitspark vs. Non-Wallet Solution for DVC:

I propose door number 3: if the only function of a DVC 'wallet' is to be a ledger that tracks the issue and holding of DVC and facilitates the transfer thereof, then I propose we drop the idea of using a 3rd-party wallet altogether and simply let the Un-Ex keep a public, automated ledger.

To prototype this, I'll update the Trade Tracker with a column called #DVC Held in the Members tab. This will keep track of all trades from tomorrow (the day after DVC trading was frozen and totals confirmed here), and will show all DVC trading that is completed between TT's on the Un-Ex. Because DVC are only traded on the Un-Ex, this should be self-contained and the totals correct. (This is a work in progress as of writing - bedtime for me now but I'll get it finished tomorrow).



If you buy/sell a DVC, the total gets updated here. In the same way that I built and we tested the Trade Tracker, if we find this new DVC ledger works after a few test trades, I'll update the associated doco and this process will become The New Way We Trade DVC. No more wallets of any kind to stuff around with, and the bursar and TT totals will be publicly available to view and check at any time. No hidden trades, no hackable numbers, all in full view of everyone. The Members tab is locked so it can't be defaced/abused and any incorrect data that might be maliciously fudged on other tabs is fully reversible as Google Sheets has versioned backups of ALL modifications to the spreadsheet. It's clean and transparent.

Bottom line: until we move to a redundant SQL database with a website front end (work in progress), taking a Less Is More approach by handling DVC inside the actual Trade Tracker might be the best way forward. Sound alright?

[sirsmokesalot]

I don't think btc would be an issue for transaction. I for one wouldn't mind a portion, or all even, of my coretanium contribution going towards a public fund for transactions or what not. I get why this might not be the best idea as well, as when you keep moving things around it creates this air of "eehhhh i dunno, they did weird shit in the past" So i am torn. Wanna throw the idea out there, not sure when but i could always get some new btc to toss into some new type of fund for fees and stuff. In my mind the coretanium is a cool idea, and demonstrates that there are people who believe in the coin enough to set up a rescue net for it, but it also is hard to pull off as the more people you have contributing, the more opinions there are to consider. In terms of coretanium it is one circumstance where i think it would be best if there was ONE person who made the final decision on what to do with it. Otherwise things will become too convoluted. Democracy is a great idea and makes everyone feel special and important, it is a real hindrance though when things need to get done and are time sensitive. I.e, the coretanium contributors agree that the coins will be used in X way, but it is left to one individual as to when to pull the trigger. That is currently how it is set up, but i dunno if it has been spelled out like that?

I don't like maidsafe, i toyed with it a little but i was not crazy about it. Granted because it was foreign to me and such, but meeeehhh, It was too slow when i was using it and there was only one or two places to exchange it at the time. Out of all the options presented coinspark seems the best at this point in time.

Nxt is nice because of the built in exchange features even though we don't use them. If there was a wallet that allowed you to make the exchange private to those who hold assets, i would have to say THAT would be my choice. Even better would be to have a spreadsheet pulling info from that exchange so that we have another copy of the exchange ledger saved in a second location. That could be redundant though as the ledger should be on the chain which is on everyone's pc. It would still be nice to have it saved to a public location for all to see, even without installing the wallet.

After reading cragv's post about just using the spreadsheet for the time being, i take no issue with that either, other than there is no 'real' dvc to hold. In the bigger picture, it is exactly the same as 'having' dvc in the nxt wallet and sending them to someone. You are still 'sending' and 'receiving' dvc. I think they only issue here would be there is no  block ledger to keep track of it all? My guess with how the nxt wallet works is that nxt is the chain and all the assets and such use that chain to check values? For the time being the idea of just using the spreadsheet works, but then the exchange does become centralized by doing so, and having only a handful of people having access to making changes to the numbers goes against the trustless notion of the blockchain. I wouldn't have donated if i didn't trust, but it needs to be said. We need to look at all angles to have the best view. Right now i think the community is small and trusting enough that this isn't an issue, but it does stand in opposition as to what the whole point of Un-ex was supposed to be about, at least imo.

Which makes me think, none of this crypto stuff is truly trustless. Someone codes the wallet and creates the coin. Always have to have some level of trust. So after thinking about it like that, it really is no different.

[IanRidgwell]

None of this Crypto stuff has ever been trustless. It is however odd how many people seem to believe that it is an absolute. I for one welcome our robot overlords and finally, the trustless utopian slavery they will bring.

[Benefactor]

@ sirsmokes:  We can agree long in advance for Core-tanium deployment criteria.  For example, I suggest we put 100% @ 0.008, if the price drops below 0.01.  This is pretty reasonable, as it could take me some time to get BTC to 'buy up every ask below 0.009'.  I doubt we will hit 0.01000 any time soon or ever, now, but it's just a policy, a contingency.  (A large stakeholder could sell down to 0.01000 for sure, so it's possible.)

-

@ ian:  lol

-

Etherium:  I think they just announced they were bankrupt and couldn't fund the project?

-

I recommend IMZ (Mark) for 3-stars!  Surprised nobody has done this already.  I'm even ok with 3.5 or even 4 stars for him!  Might be some conflict of interest, but I've just had plenty of excellent trades and transfers with him, including 100-UNOs, like for the Blue Crypto Award disbursement.  Someone please 2nd and 3rd {3, 3.5, or 4} stars for him, if you agree.

I recommend 3-stars for cragv, too.  Is this right?

-

Sparkbit:  Looks like it's up and running much quicker than 20 minutes.  If it's a secure system, and our endearing Un-Ex people agree to use it, then - I love it!

[cragv]

After reading cragv's post about just using the spreadsheet for the time being, i take no issue with that either, other than there is no 'real' dvc to hold. In the bigger picture, it is exactly the same as 'having' dvc in the nxt wallet and sending them to someone. You are still 'sending' and 'receiving' dvc. I think they only issue here would be there is no block ledger to keep track of it all?

You're right, the main difference in doing the spreadsheet as opposed to the NXT wallet is that there are no transactions on the blockchain. It becomes more of a trust-based system insofar that I'm administering the sheet myself. However, this is a major 'selling point' of the vision of Un-Ex (apart from keeping markets stable whilst facilitating high-value transactions); all members involved are trusted and in combination with a transparent ledger for our DVC, nothing functionally changes.

Having one less wallet involved is a plus for me, personally. Keeping the Un-Ex DVC component in the Un-Ex system is attractive to me. As long as the maths adds up (issued DVC total = traded DVC total = bursar's wallet balance difference) and all TT's are in agreement (ie. there are no disputes of values, which can be easily solved with trade histories), this system should be simple, reliable and sufficient for the time being.

There's the added advantage that once things move from a spreadsheet to a database, there's no action required on your side. No more wallet installations, updates, etc. You just use the Un-Ex to trade cryptos and DVC and in the meantime our network grows. Sounded good to me, anyway! Discussion welcome, of course Cheers!

[IMZ]

Dawn here. Me reading reading.

Spoke at length to cragv last night. His suggestion seems awesome.  Back shortly.

m

[IMZ]

# Let’s watch cragv’s prototype carefully. His explanation to me made total sense.

# Shall we ‘loop back’ to the discussion of how to deploy Core-tanium funds. It won’t be too tricky. I’d vote with the model suggested in Benefactor’s Post 1565.

# Maidsafe is slow! Taa for that info.

# “None of this Crypto stuff has ever been trustless.” This is the wisdom that is driving this project. What we are now learning is how to co-operate, how to build something worth much much more than Unobtanium’s market-cap alone.

@ Benefactor: your point about trades not being on a blockchain is astute. Here my thoughts:

been thinkin’ for some time about how simple it would be to create a protocol to secure things like passwords and (now) the ‘default Register’ ‘behind’ the DVC section of the trade-tracker.
Indeed, this question was first among those I asked cragv about yesterday.
What we’re talkin’ about here is a sort of ‘multi-sig-ness’ to the data in question, agreed?

And here’s a concrete start:

if you PM me, I shall pass to you the password of indiamikezulu.com.au.
We’ll make several other community members privy to it, and make that site a ‘secure point.’ (and you can issue me with another TT star!!)

If it works, hell, we’ll set up ‘Unobtaniumcorecommunitydatabunker.com.’

[IMZ]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14hftnJ_crV9flLcUKaPqwEfTLKJme3R8jVeUJtudQSw/edit#gid=1234509140

Seems to be at 'Trusted Traders and Merchants List.'

Opinions please.

Wow! This means we can 'mint-and-issue' DVC, as we go, on the basis of Un-Ex members' decisions!

[Benefactor]

@ Benefactor: your point about trades not being on a blockchain is astute. Here my thoughts:

I did?  I don't have the best memory, but I'd like to see where I said this.  I do like trades on a blockchain.  Maybe I was upset and made a blanket statement?

I prefer a blockchain.  I still want a lot more on UNO, like voting, not that anyone else wants Rockchain bloat.

Certainly wouldn't want to be a poster child for off-blockchain stuff.  I can go along with a supermajority decision, but not as a poster child on this one.

[IMZ]

'After reading cragv's post about just using the spreadsheet for the time being, i take no issue with that either, other than there is no 'real' dvc to hold. In the bigger picture, it is exactly the same as 'having' dvc in the nxt wallet and sending them to someone. You are still 'sending' and 'receiving' dvc. I think they only issue here would be there is no block ledger to keep track of it all?'

Hey, B.! My error. It was Sirsmokes.

'for the time being' is the pivotal phrase. I gotta get Ian's advice this morning -- he's looking at the Sparkbits wallet. I suppose:

# security must be paramount EDIT hmmm . . . I'm leaning a little more towards Sparkbits

# but the 'integratedness' of cragv's system (of DVC with our other projects) makes sense for the future.

Let's keep gathering info and opinions for a few days!!

[cragv]

I prefer a blockchain.  I still want a lot more on UNO, like voting, not that anyone else wants Rockchain bloat.

Certainly wouldn't want to be a poster child for off-blockchain stuff.  I can go along with a supermajority decision, but not as a poster child on this one.

Thanks for your thoughts, Benefactor. I have no emotional investment in keeping a DVC ledger on the Trade Tracker. However, here are the pros and cons (as I see them) that led me to suggest keeping it all on the trade tracker. Have a read and tell me what you think (along with anyone else, of course):

DVC on the blockchain (NXT, Coinspark, others):
+ Accurate: all asset issue, holding and transfer is recorded on the blockchain, giving fast and reliable totals and trade history.
+ More tangible: you can see your asset on the blockchain and feel like it's locked in your own safe (ie. "[it is] 'real' DVC to hold", as sirsmokes said).
- Inconvenient: you can't easily see who is holding what DVC without the wallet unless you check a manually-maintained register (indiamikezulu.com)
- NXT-specific: the NXT wallet's nifty features are overshadowed by a high technical barrier to entry.
- NXT-specific: frequent updates indicate ongoing development (which is good) but it's a PITA to manage as an end-user, particularly for those of us solely using the wallet for DVC.
- Confusing: Un-Ex newcomers may be confused by needing two wallets.
- Diluted brand: An unrelated wallet to manage an in-house asset is not intuitive (think outside the tech, like a newcomer); having to install and learn about NXT or Coinspark as part of the 'getting started' process may dilute the psychological 'value' of the idea of the greater project, which may hinder uptake and project momentum. (The more people are involved, the greater power such financial instruments as DVC and Equity DVC can wield, benefiting all who are involved).
- Reliant on 3rd Party: DVC trading is dependent upon the continued project and software support of the wallet; if it breaks for whatever reason, trading halts and even balances may be in question.
- Too Complicated? Blockchain management of a non-cryptographic asset may be needlessly complicated (trusted traders pledge silver which guarantees the value of the coin, so a hack that steals DVC assets is actually stealing nothing- the thief cannot sell the DVC, it's exclusive and in-house; the register is kept current on the Trade Tracker anyway, so we'd just pick up from where we left off with the current register balance).
- Pointless Security? Anyone can do a dodgy trade with DVC. Everyone gets ONE chance to steal someone's money whether you do it with a blockchain register or a spreadsheet. If you trade with someone and send them UNO in exchange for their DVC, they can steal your crypto but that's all they get. A DVC ledger on the blockchain isn't going to stop them! Once you steal, you're no longer a trusted trader.


Manual administration of the DVC register (such as on the indiamikezulu.com blog page):
+ Easy: all assets issued and held can be seen at a glance.
+ Redundant: anyone can calculate current balances from trade history to check the current totals are correct.
+ Trust is Incentive: it's low-risk to trust a manual register: you trust the DVC bursar, you trust your fellow traders when trading DVC and they trust that you hold the silver that you pledged, so it benefits everyone for the register-keeper (IMZ for now) to keep current and correct records.
+ Transparent: anyone can make a copy of the register at any time and keep their own records as a check to ensure user holders match the register's list.
+ Simple! 'less is more' - it's really simple to get started once you're a Trusted Trader: your issued DVC appears on the Members tab and you can trade immediately on the Un-Ex!
- Time-Consuming: manual DVC register administration is burdensome to accurately maintain in a timely manner.
- Mistakes: human error is an ever-present possibility.
- Multiple Points of Failure: availability of the register's online location (IMZ's blog) is crucial for ongoing use of the system.
- Inconvenience: an interim point while we're using a spreadsheet for trades: having to visit an online location that is not the main Un-Ex sheet is another detail that can add needless complexity, especially for newcomers.


Automated DVC register administration (per the proposed Trade Tracker change):
+ Easy: quickly view assets issued and held by trusted traders.
+ Reliable: excellent availability, as the Trade Tracker runs on Google's redundant and secure servers (data is encrypted between your browser and the server, if you hadn't noticed)
+ Low-risk: the trade tracker is transparently administered by a trusted trader (as opposed to relying on wallet code from an unrelated 3rd party) and you can see the code behind all calculations if you care to explore.
+ Simple! very easy to use, as above: once you're a Trusted Trader: your issued DVC appears on the Members tab and you can trade immediately on the Un-Ex!
+ Instant: and automatic - once a DVC trade is marked 'Complete', the DVC register balances will update.
+ Hack-resistant: if you didn't know, Google Sheets keeps a change log of every modification ever made, so we can undo any malicious changes made by anyone.
+ Error-resistant: no lost DVC or other passphrase issues (guyinanutshell entered the wrong passphrase last week in the NXT wallet and now has a DVC and some NXT sitting on the blockchain that he can't access, for example).
+ No Extra Software: no extra bl**dy wallet software to download, update, remember (yet another) password for, etc. This is lightweight, instant and hassle-free.
+ One-Stop Shop: Un-Ex trading, member list, DVC trades and balances, FAQs and so on are all right there on the Un-Ex, so newcomers can come to the one place to do everything.
- Trust rather than 'Trustless': you rely on trust rather than a blockchain for this digital asset (there's "no 'real' DVC to hold" -sirsmokes) - although we're all holding pledged silver that backs the coin so this may be a Pro rather than a Con for some).


I'm trying to be objective here in my list but probably missed a few points. Thoughts and discussion welcome.

[IMZ]

"Transparent: anyone can make a copy of the register at any time and keep their own records as a check to ensure user holders match the register's list."

'The Ozzie Thing': might the acceptance of cragv's model pivot on (a) putting in place a clearly-understood-and-sufficient back-up system (to be discussed and designed) and (b) the inclusion forthwith of some non-IndiaMikeZulu players into the group that manages the back-up system?

That is, it is wise for Ian and Mark and Cragv to see that others may see a 'creeping centralisation' goin' on here!

[cragv]

"Transparent: anyone can make a copy of the register at any time and keep their own records as a check to ensure user holders match the register's list."

'The Ozzie Thing': might the acceptance of cragv's model pivot on (a) putting in place a clearly-understood-and-sufficient back-up system (to be discussed and designed) and (b) the inclusion forthwith of some non-IndiaMikeZulu players into the group that manages the back-up system?

That is, it is wise for Ian and Mark and Cragv to see that others may see a 'creeping centralisation' goin' on here!

Thanks Mark, the idea of unintended centralisation around we Aussie players is something I hadn't considered. Here are some thoughts related to this that may help allay fears (sorry about the mini-essay):

Why the Un-Ex is a spreadsheet and why this is temporary:
In its current form as a shared spreadsheet, the Un-Ex is admittedly clunky and a little annoying to use. It is only intended to be a proof of concept to ensure everything fits together (something we're currently working out in this very discussion). Once it is sufficiently functional and we're satisfied that the Un-Ex trading process is clearly defined (we're pretty much at that point right now), design and construction can begin so the Un-Ex can live on an actual database that is hosted on a secure and reliable website.

I intend to facilitate this myself (but anyone else is very welcome to do it instead, honestly!) and currently plan to use the same web host I've been dealing with for 5+ years already. They're certainly not cheap, but they're reliable and have excellent tech support with offices in both the USA and Australia. Security, bandwidth and availability are the key parameters in selecting an appropriate host.

I plan on writing a database on which the Un-Ex can run with a long-term view of being able to handle an order of magnitude more traffic than the trickle we see at this early stage of the project. It's a serious investment of a LOT of my time so I'm not taking it lightly! The Un-Ex in its spreadsheet form constitutes part of my database design planning, where we can use it and modify things as needed until it all clicks neatly together. At that point, I'll be ready to build a database with a clearly defined scope.


Related to this, let's address transparency and data redundancy (backups):

Transparency: in its current form, anyone can open the Trade Tracker, click the File menu and then click 'Make a Copy'. That saved copy is yours to use and change and test and poke and prod and investigate. There is nothing hidden and nothing locked from your eyes, you can look and test to see that all calculations work correctly and that there's no funny business. Indeed, you can click on the cell of any sheet (including hidden sheets) on the live sheet and can see the formulas that drive the whole thing. There is nothing hidden here and I've purposefully kept scripts out of the sheet given this is an experimental form of a database design that is to come!

In its future database form, 'editor' and/or 'review' user roles can be created for any/all Trusted Traders who wish to log into the server to view code. For anyone with the aptitude to help develop and maintain the database and front-end once it's live, administrative roles can also be created. We the community own and run this show, there are no barriers or restricted access areas here.*

*The one simple exception to this is where areas are already completely viewable but locked from editing. Anyone can view the Members tab on the Trade Tracker but noone can edit it. By later tonight, the page will be fully automatic and should require no change or intervention. Names, trade and DVC totals, merchants, and so on are automatically added and calculated based on the action in the Trades tab.

Backup System: in its current form, Google Sheets runs on Google's own servers, which have humongous resources behind their availability and data storage. Google Sheets keeps change revisions and allows roll-backs to any previous version of the spreadsheet. In addition, Google Sheets has the option to be stored locally on the Google Drive owner's computer and/or mobile device. In further addition, I handle electronic data for a living. I use an encrypted and automated commercial cloud backup service that includes my Google Drive folder. This service also saves versions, so there's a secondary point of roll-back redundancy. If I were to abruptly disappear from this group and stop responding to messages and phone calls (death, mental instability, sudden and severe change of circumstances, etc.), any of you can make a copy of the spreadsheet in its current form and could then run it from your own Google Drive. Share the new link with the rest of the Un-Ex group and my involvement will be simply historical. Yes, it's that simple!

In its future database form, the web host I intend to use (Quadra Hosting, for anyone wondering) has their own impressive, redundant storage processes in place. In addition to this, I personally make a full backup of my websites on a monthly basis and an automated, incremental backup of my websites on a weekly basis. This is encrypted and stored on my commercial cloud backup service, so if the web host fails and their backup fails and my local backup fails and my secondary backups fail, I still have everything to within a week on my cloud storage account. If I were to abruptly disappear once the website is up and running, I plan to already have created a few administrative accounts for various other skilled people here on the Un-Ex (IanRidgewell and guyinanutshell come to mind as I've had numerous technical discussions with both). These trusted traders could keep things running until others could be roped in if/as necessary - and that's just today, while we're still teeny tiny!

For any/all of the above, transparency and redundancy is key to how I consider and build things. There is nothing that I'm currently doing with the Un-Ex that you guys aren't aware of, and that's the way I like it!

Questions and ongoing discussion welcomed. Cheers.