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Author Topic: [ANN][SLR] SolarCoin | PoW to PoS v. 2.0 | Solar Proof of Generation (§1 = 1MWh)  (Read 432485 times)
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January 27, 2016, 11:29:55 PM
 #3041

^ Not only decentralized currencies, but decentralized electricity as well.

*edit I see what you mean by commodities.

Smiley

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January 27, 2016, 11:56:15 PM
 #3042

^ Not only decentralized currencies, but decentralized electricity as well.

*edit I see what you mean by commodities.

Smiley

Yes that's what I meant Smiley Decentralized is the way to go
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January 28, 2016, 06:10:19 AM
 #3043

^ Not only decentralized currencies, but decentralized electricity as well.

*edit I see what you mean by commodities.

Smiley

Yes that's what I meant Smiley Decentralized is the way to go

Thanks Solarcoiner. That is an excellent take and I agree with you. What's your opinion on external threats to the decentralized crypto ecosystem? i.e. Chinese gov. decides to make i'll name a hypothetical name here for now "Yuancoin"? Do you think that due to network affects and forcing people to use yuancoin that its value is already huge and dwarfing Bitcoin and other altcoins. This may force Bitcoin to go into like another space like "gold" for crypto assets along with altcoins like solarcoin. Or do you think that due to the way/process they setup yuancoin, this will be the major impacts to Bitcoin and the altcoin ecosystem.
From what i've read on the press releases so far on chinese gov. making a crypto coin and linking it to a national currency/identity, it won't be decentralized. It will be under central point of control. That makes me also question, how is that even possible? The risks their must be huge from a security standpoint.

From engineering and open network consensus theory, I believe that decentralized will win out in the long term (just look at internet vs. intranet). It just depends on how long term that is? Anyway, that's only my speculative thoughts.

Cheers,
-lfloorwalker

|Solcrypto|ElectriCChain| SLR Tips: 8Hocu8s8u8FFAyh5ev2qsNmLZYgeiVToHi
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January 28, 2016, 07:33:00 AM
 #3044

I agree with Nick. The volume won't stay low forever.
One of the main reasons I am so exited about Solarcoin is because it's so unpopular among cryptos right now.
I think once the Bitcoin block size issues get resolved once and for all we could see a new all time high.
We should concentrate on getting SLR added to more exchanges. That's the only way people will get to know Solarcoin faster. I think once we are on more exchanges the claims might start to increase as well.  
I have been actively messaging a bunch of exchanges to add Solarcoin and it't not easy to say the least. Most people probably don't even take the time to take a look at the project.
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC. And you can bet the bit of cash I make on these pumps with other coins is going straight into SLR  Wink
At the same time I think a lot of people are just sitting on a sh*tload of litecoins desperately waiting for the price to go up so they can sell.
And that's where Solarcoin comes back into play. I think a lot of Litecoins market cap will come to Solarcoin if it succeeds to get onto more exchanges. (Either way I  still hold a lot of litecoins because you never know with crypto Wink )
I believe the solarcoin price is a reflection of how successful it already is!
Some might say it's just manipulation but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself what defines manipulation? After all it's a free market and someone or a group of people is/are buying up almost all the Solarcoin's for sale. This is VERY real and it has been slowly happening over the last 2.5 Years. And here we are today, and it's still going on.
That's exactly why I have absolutely no problem holding so many solarcoins. I can't find any other crypto out there with the kind of community like this coin has. I almost can't put it into words.
I'm not going to lie, I sold quite a few coins on the way up. I look forward to buying them back if I ever get the chance to do so (if the price goes back down)
Anyway I have to admit I am absolutely in love with Solarcoin. I love every aspect of it and I just love checking my wallet and seeing the stakes rolling in. There is no other coin like it out there. I will always be a supporter of this awesome project and I would love to see Solarcoin succeed along next to Bitcoin. I can see the day Solarcoin will be used hand in hand with bitcoin extending the power of decentralized currencies/commodities even further.

2016 is off to a great start. Lets hope we will reach the sun. I have a feeling 2016 is the year.

Edit: Always remember: IF we see another crypto rally it could be HUGE for Solarcoin. Just do the math, 34 Million available. MUCH less in circulation. If volumes start to increase we could witness some craaaazy sh*t  Grin

Yeah the math is what I worry about. Leaky ceiling. I hope the price goes up just to see your posts, you must hold a ton of SLR. SLR may be Decentralized but Centrally located Smiley

Quote
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC.

Where do you think Claimers will go with their BTC after they sell SLR? Double edged sword here, wanting more claimers since it will make the price to go up? Good to see you are smarter than everyone else buying low and selling high though. Not sure why 34 Million is much less in circulation, I take it you meant less than 98 Billion?

Litecoin will only keep going down in price much like all other alt coins. I predicted the price to drop to $3 from $15 on LTC and it will drop further. I think it will go to a dollar and then a quarter. How can it recover from the buy low sell high just like you state you like to do? You have to Buy LOW and Sell HIGH like everyone else while competing with them, and this is while mining is going on. Same goes for any other coin acting like a stock. Good luck with your LTC!
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January 28, 2016, 10:52:22 AM
 #3045

^ Not only decentralized currencies, but decentralized electricity as well.

*edit I see what you mean by commodities.

Smiley

Yes that's what I meant Smiley Decentralized is the way to go

Thanks Solarcoiner. That is an excellent take and I agree with you. What's your opinion on external threats to the decentralized crypto ecosystem? i.e. Chinese gov. decides to make i'll name a hypothetical name here for now "Yuancoin"? Do you think that due to network affects and forcing people to use yuancoin that its value is already huge and dwarfing Bitcoin and other altcoins. This may force Bitcoin to go into like another space like "gold" for crypto assets along with altcoins like solarcoin. Or do you think that due to the way/process they setup yuancoin, this will be the major impacts to Bitcoin and the altcoin ecosystem.
From what i've read on the press releases so far on chinese gov. making a crypto coin and linking it to a national currency/identity, it won't be decentralized. It will be under central point of control. That makes me also question, how is that even possible? The risks their must be huge from a security standpoint.

From engineering and open network consensus theory, I believe that decentralized will win out in the long term (just look at internet vs. intranet). It just depends on how long term that is? Anyway, that's only my speculative thoughts.

Cheers,
-lfloorwalker

I don't see any real threat's to the decentralized ecosystem. The problem with centralized alternatives is you are never in control. Take ripple for example: They released a downloadable wallet which they quickly removed from the market. I was stuck with my coins on the ripple network and there was no way for me to get my wallet back. I had to use some shady tool I found on reddit to somehow connect to the ripple network and send my coins to an exchange. You can't even store Ripples in a wallet on your computer at the moment. Thats how bad it is.
Next they are going to implement capital controls and tell you how much you can send per month Wink

I dont think yuancoin for example would be a significant threat to the decentralized crypto system. I think it would drive even more people to bitcoin as they realize that bitcoin is simply a better yuancoin. But I can see both coexisting at the same time if that makes sense. Just like with fiat and cryptos right now.
I really like that Internet vs Intranet argument.
Just look at how much the internet is changing right now. So much has happened in the last 10 Years
I think a lot of things are going to change in the bitcoin ecosystem!


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January 28, 2016, 11:13:02 AM
 #3046

I agree with Nick. The volume won't stay low forever.
One of the main reasons I am so exited about Solarcoin is because it's so unpopular among cryptos right now.
I think once the Bitcoin block size issues get resolved once and for all we could see a new all time high.
We should concentrate on getting SLR added to more exchanges. That's the only way people will get to know Solarcoin faster. I think once we are on more exchanges the claims might start to increase as well.  
I have been actively messaging a bunch of exchanges to add Solarcoin and it't not easy to say the least. Most people probably don't even take the time to take a look at the project.
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC. And you can bet the bit of cash I make on these pumps with other coins is going straight into SLR  Wink
At the same time I think a lot of people are just sitting on a sh*tload of litecoins desperately waiting for the price to go up so they can sell.
And that's where Solarcoin comes back into play. I think a lot of Litecoins market cap will come to Solarcoin if it succeeds to get onto more exchanges. (Either way I  still hold a lot of litecoins because you never know with crypto Wink )
I believe the solarcoin price is a reflection of how successful it already is!
Some might say it's just manipulation but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself what defines manipulation? After all it's a free market and someone or a group of people is/are buying up almost all the Solarcoin's for sale. This is VERY real and it has been slowly happening over the last 2.5 Years. And here we are today, and it's still going on.
That's exactly why I have absolutely no problem holding so many solarcoins. I can't find any other crypto out there with the kind of community like this coin has. I almost can't put it into words.
I'm not going to lie, I sold quite a few coins on the way up. I look forward to buying them back if I ever get the chance to do so (if the price goes back down)
Anyway I have to admit I am absolutely in love with Solarcoin. I love every aspect of it and I just love checking my wallet and seeing the stakes rolling in. There is no other coin like it out there. I will always be a supporter of this awesome project and I would love to see Solarcoin succeed along next to Bitcoin. I can see the day Solarcoin will be used hand in hand with bitcoin extending the power of decentralized currencies/commodities even further.

2016 is off to a great start. Lets hope we will reach the sun. I have a feeling 2016 is the year.

Edit: Always remember: IF we see another crypto rally it could be HUGE for Solarcoin. Just do the math, 34 Million available. MUCH less in circulation. If volumes start to increase we could witness some craaaazy sh*t  Grin

Yeah the math is what I worry about. Leaky ceiling. I hope the price goes up just to see your posts, you must hold a ton of SLR. SLR may be Decentralized but Centrally located Smiley

Quote
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC.

Where do you think Claimers will go with their BTC after they sell SLR? Double edged sword here, wanting more claimers since it will make the price to go up? Good to see you are smarter than everyone else buying low and selling high though. Not sure why 34 Million is much less in circulation, I take it you meant less than 98 Billion?

Litecoin will only keep going down in price much like all other alt coins. I predicted the price to drop to $3 from $15 on LTC and it will drop further. I think it will go to a dollar and then a quarter. How can it recover from the buy low sell high just like you state you like to do? You have to Buy LOW and Sell HIGH like everyone else while competing with them, and this is while mining is going on. Same goes for any other coin acting like a stock. Good luck with your LTC!

You are right Solarcoin is not very decentralized yet but I believe we can get there. First of all we need more exchanges to add SLR and the claiming process needs to become automated and secured by an algorithm. In other words we need to eliminate the trust. Even though I trust the Solarcoin foundation there are plenty of people out there that may not. It is a single point of failure and that problem needs to be addressed sooner or later.
About the Solarcoins I hold: I bought most of them very early on maybe over 2 Years ago. I liked the idea and decided to give it a shot.
I'm not sure how you would define a ton but yes im quite happy with the stake I have Smiley

Indeed we have a double edged sword :p But in all honesty I don't see a problem with people buying in for the price to go up. Obviously People are going to sell when they make profits (you would be stupid to buy if you didn't think it's going to be worth more one day). But I know I am NEVER going to sell all of my SLR. Im always going to keep some coins in my staking wallet.

I said 34 Million available and less in circulation beuse there is no way there are more than 400-500k Solarcoins being traded right now. (moving around) and that number is very generous. And if you have been around for the last couple of Bitcoin hype cycles you probably know shit hits the fan and Altcoins start to get some serious volume on the buy side. I'm saying if this happens again we will se unbelievable prices for Solarcoin because it is so scarce right now and so few people are claiming it. Its just supply and demand and as long as it's being traded on bittrex it will go up if/when bitcoin reaches a new all time high.

I wouldn't give up on litecoin so fast. It has a history of deceiving people into being dead and then suddenly exploding. The Litecoin market is very manipulated and keep in mind that it is always more profitable to keep the price as low as possible when you manipulate something. What's going to happen if we see bitcoin go really high again? I belive the price won't be able to be kept down because Litecoins market cap will be pulled up along with bitcoins. Just like all other altcoins. These are just the obervations I have made over the last couple of years. Obviously there is now way to predict the future but lets just say I really wouldn't be surprised if we saw 7500$ bitcoin and a 120-220$ and maybe a 2-5$ Solarcoin. Don't worry you can call me crazy but those are the prices i'm hoping to see in 2016.
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January 28, 2016, 04:33:35 PM
 #3047

I agree with Nick. The volume won't stay low forever.
One of the main reasons I am so exited about Solarcoin is because it's so unpopular among cryptos right now.
I think once the Bitcoin block size issues get resolved once and for all we could see a new all time high.
We should concentrate on getting SLR added to more exchanges. That's the only way people will get to know Solarcoin faster. I think once we are on more exchanges the claims might start to increase as well.  
I have been actively messaging a bunch of exchanges to add Solarcoin and it't not easy to say the least. Most people probably don't even take the time to take a look at the project.
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC. And you can bet the bit of cash I make on these pumps with other coins is going straight into SLR  Wink
At the same time I think a lot of people are just sitting on a sh*tload of litecoins desperately waiting for the price to go up so they can sell.
And that's where Solarcoin comes back into play. I think a lot of Litecoins market cap will come to Solarcoin if it succeeds to get onto more exchanges. (Either way I  still hold a lot of litecoins because you never know with crypto Wink )
I believe the solarcoin price is a reflection of how successful it already is!
Some might say it's just manipulation but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself what defines manipulation? After all it's a free market and someone or a group of people is/are buying up almost all the Solarcoin's for sale. This is VERY real and it has been slowly happening over the last 2.5 Years. And here we are today, and it's still going on.
That's exactly why I have absolutely no problem holding so many solarcoins. I can't find any other crypto out there with the kind of community like this coin has. I almost can't put it into words.
I'm not going to lie, I sold quite a few coins on the way up. I look forward to buying them back if I ever get the chance to do so (if the price goes back down)
Anyway I have to admit I am absolutely in love with Solarcoin. I love every aspect of it and I just love checking my wallet and seeing the stakes rolling in. There is no other coin like it out there. I will always be a supporter of this awesome project and I would love to see Solarcoin succeed along next to Bitcoin. I can see the day Solarcoin will be used hand in hand with bitcoin extending the power of decentralized currencies/commodities even further.

2016 is off to a great start. Lets hope we will reach the sun. I have a feeling 2016 is the year.

Edit: Always remember: IF we see another crypto rally it could be HUGE for Solarcoin. Just do the math, 34 Million available. MUCH less in circulation. If volumes start to increase we could witness some craaaazy sh*t  Grin

Yeah the math is what I worry about. Leaky ceiling. I hope the price goes up just to see your posts, you must hold a ton of SLR. SLR may be Decentralized but Centrally located Smiley

Quote
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC.

Where do you think Claimers will go with their BTC after they sell SLR? Double edged sword here, wanting more claimers since it will make the price to go up? Good to see you are smarter than everyone else buying low and selling high though. Not sure why 34 Million is much less in circulation, I take it you meant less than 98 Billion?

Litecoin will only keep going down in price much like all other alt coins. I predicted the price to drop to $3 from $15 on LTC and it will drop further. I think it will go to a dollar and then a quarter. How can it recover from the buy low sell high just like you state you like to do? You have to Buy LOW and Sell HIGH like everyone else while competing with them, and this is while mining is going on. Same goes for any other coin acting like a stock. Good luck with your LTC!

You are right Solarcoin is not very decentralized yet but I believe we can get there. First of all we need more exchanges to add SLR and the claiming process needs to become automated and secured by an algorithm. In other words we need to eliminate the trust. Even though I trust the Solarcoin foundation there are plenty of people out there that may not. It is a single point of failure and that problem needs to be addressed sooner or later.
About the Solarcoins I hold: I bought most of them very early on maybe over 2 Years ago. I liked the idea and decided to give it a shot.
I'm not sure how you would define a ton but yes im quite happy with the stake I have Smiley

Indeed we have a double edged sword :p But in all honesty I don't see a problem with people buying in for the price to go up. Obviously People are going to sell when they make profits (you would be stupid to buy if you didn't think it's going to be worth more one day). But I know I am NEVER going to sell all of my SLR. Im always going to keep some coins in my staking wallet.

I said 34 Million available and less in circulation beuse there is no way there are more than 400-500k Solarcoins being traded right now. (moving around) and that number is very generous. And if you have been around for the last couple of Bitcoin hype cycles you probably know shit hits the fan and Altcoins start to get some serious volume on the buy side. I'm saying if this happens again we will se unbelievable prices for Solarcoin because it is so scarce right now and so few people are claiming it. Its just supply and demand and as long as it's being traded on bittrex it will go up if/when bitcoin reaches a new all time high.

I wouldn't give up on litecoin so fast. It has a history of deceiving people into being dead and then suddenly exploding. The Litecoin market is very manipulated and keep in mind that it is always more profitable to keep the price as low as possible when you manipulate something. What's going to happen if we see bitcoin go really high again? I belive the price won't be able to be kept down because Litecoins market cap will be pulled up along with bitcoins. Just like all other altcoins. These are just the obervations I have made over the last couple of years. Obviously there is now way to predict the future but lets just say I really wouldn't be surprised if we saw 7500$ bitcoin and a 120-220$ and maybe a 2-5$ Solarcoin. Don't worry you can call me crazy but those are the prices i'm hoping to see in 2016.

I believe SolarCoin has to get to $2 to $5 just to make it worth claiming. But it can't stay there, Leaky Ceiling, gold rush type scenarios play out. If more people claim to sell out than buy then it goes down again. Buy low etc and even you do this. You may argue $2 is the new low but 1 satoshi is the real low after all coin are disbursed. All real buyers own the coin and no new buyers come in high enough to sustain. Since the original holders will hold and wait for new buyers and won't be able to buy their own coin on the exchange anymore since they no longer hold the majority, they can not pump anymore and make as much money with the coin in between their sells when they buy. If I own 3/4 of the total coin in circulation I can pump with ease. Soon as I only own 1/4 it becomes less profitable and more people are selling along with me.

I know you will have your opportunity to sell high since you can see the distribution wallets and they don't change their numbers. So they are buying and selling to themselves. That is why there are 2 big wallets on Bittrex that never move yet large sells happen and you don't see them change totals. The other wallets don't have enough to cover the sells, or a wallet comes in and dumps occasionally could be the scenario. If this is the case then you can't say 34 Million are not being traded since someone just comes in occasionally and dumps and can do it anytime they like, otherwise the big wallets are trading to themselves since I don't see the 200K wallets selling and disbursing the coin properly and much of this volume may have left to stake. I watched for over a year and no real change.
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January 28, 2016, 07:42:50 PM
 #3048

I agree with Nick. The volume won't stay low forever.
One of the main reasons I am so exited about Solarcoin is because it's so unpopular among cryptos right now.
I think once the Bitcoin block size issues get resolved once and for all we could see a new all time high.
We should concentrate on getting SLR added to more exchanges. That's the only way people will get to know Solarcoin faster. I think once we are on more exchanges the claims might start to increase as well.  
I have been actively messaging a bunch of exchanges to add Solarcoin and it't not easy to say the least. Most people probably don't even take the time to take a look at the project.
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC. And you can bet the bit of cash I make on these pumps with other coins is going straight into SLR  Wink
At the same time I think a lot of people are just sitting on a sh*tload of litecoins desperately waiting for the price to go up so they can sell.
And that's where Solarcoin comes back into play. I think a lot of Litecoins market cap will come to Solarcoin if it succeeds to get onto more exchanges. (Either way I  still hold a lot of litecoins because you never know with crypto Wink )
I believe the solarcoin price is a reflection of how successful it already is!
Some might say it's just manipulation but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself what defines manipulation? After all it's a free market and someone or a group of people is/are buying up almost all the Solarcoin's for sale. This is VERY real and it has been slowly happening over the last 2.5 Years. And here we are today, and it's still going on.
That's exactly why I have absolutely no problem holding so many solarcoins. I can't find any other crypto out there with the kind of community like this coin has. I almost can't put it into words.
I'm not going to lie, I sold quite a few coins on the way up. I look forward to buying them back if I ever get the chance to do so (if the price goes back down)
Anyway I have to admit I am absolutely in love with Solarcoin. I love every aspect of it and I just love checking my wallet and seeing the stakes rolling in. There is no other coin like it out there. I will always be a supporter of this awesome project and I would love to see Solarcoin succeed along next to Bitcoin. I can see the day Solarcoin will be used hand in hand with bitcoin extending the power of decentralized currencies/commodities even further.

2016 is off to a great start. Lets hope we will reach the sun. I have a feeling 2016 is the year.

Edit: Always remember: IF we see another crypto rally it could be HUGE for Solarcoin. Just do the math, 34 Million available. MUCH less in circulation. If volumes start to increase we could witness some craaaazy sh*t  Grin

Yeah the math is what I worry about. Leaky ceiling. I hope the price goes up just to see your posts, you must hold a ton of SLR. SLR may be Decentralized but Centrally located Smiley

Quote
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC.

Where do you think Claimers will go with their BTC after they sell SLR? Double edged sword here, wanting more claimers since it will make the price to go up? Good to see you are smarter than everyone else buying low and selling high though. Not sure why 34 Million is much less in circulation, I take it you meant less than 98 Billion?

Litecoin will only keep going down in price much like all other alt coins. I predicted the price to drop to $3 from $15 on LTC and it will drop further. I think it will go to a dollar and then a quarter. How can it recover from the buy low sell high just like you state you like to do? You have to Buy LOW and Sell HIGH like everyone else while competing with them, and this is while mining is going on. Same goes for any other coin acting like a stock. Good luck with your LTC!

You are right Solarcoin is not very decentralized yet but I believe we can get there. First of all we need more exchanges to add SLR and the claiming process needs to become automated and secured by an algorithm. In other words we need to eliminate the trust. Even though I trust the Solarcoin foundation there are plenty of people out there that may not. It is a single point of failure and that problem needs to be addressed sooner or later.
About the Solarcoins I hold: I bought most of them very early on maybe over 2 Years ago. I liked the idea and decided to give it a shot.
I'm not sure how you would define a ton but yes im quite happy with the stake I have Smiley

Indeed we have a double edged sword :p But in all honesty I don't see a problem with people buying in for the price to go up. Obviously People are going to sell when they make profits (you would be stupid to buy if you didn't think it's going to be worth more one day). But I know I am NEVER going to sell all of my SLR. Im always going to keep some coins in my staking wallet.

I said 34 Million available and less in circulation beuse there is no way there are more than 400-500k Solarcoins being traded right now. (moving around) and that number is very generous. And if you have been around for the last couple of Bitcoin hype cycles you probably know shit hits the fan and Altcoins start to get some serious volume on the buy side. I'm saying if this happens again we will se unbelievable prices for Solarcoin because it is so scarce right now and so few people are claiming it. Its just supply and demand and as long as it's being traded on bittrex it will go up if/when bitcoin reaches a new all time high.

I wouldn't give up on litecoin so fast. It has a history of deceiving people into being dead and then suddenly exploding. The Litecoin market is very manipulated and keep in mind that it is always more profitable to keep the price as low as possible when you manipulate something. What's going to happen if we see bitcoin go really high again? I belive the price won't be able to be kept down because Litecoins market cap will be pulled up along with bitcoins. Just like all other altcoins. These are just the obervations I have made over the last couple of years. Obviously there is now way to predict the future but lets just say I really wouldn't be surprised if we saw 7500$ bitcoin and a 120-220$ and maybe a 2-5$ Solarcoin. Don't worry you can call me crazy but those are the prices i'm hoping to see in 2016.

I believe SolarCoin has to get to $2 to $5 just to make it worth claiming. But it can't stay there, Leaky Ceiling, gold rush type scenarios play out. If more people claim to sell out than buy then it goes down again. Buy low etc and even you do this. You may argue $2 is the new low but 1 satoshi is the real low after all coin are disbursed. All real buyers own the coin and no new buyers come in high enough to sustain. Since the original holders will hold and wait for new buyers and won't be able to buy their own coin on the exchange anymore since they no longer hold the majority, they can not pump anymore and make as much money with the coin in between their sells when they buy. If I own 3/4 of the total coin in circulation I can pump with ease. Soon as I only own 1/4 it becomes less profitable and more people are selling along with me.

I know you will have your opportunity to sell high since you can see the distribution wallets and they don't change their numbers. So they are buying and selling to themselves. That is why there are 2 big wallets on Bittrex that never move yet large sells happen and you don't see them change totals. The other wallets don't have enough to cover the sells, or a wallet comes in and dumps occasionally could be the scenario. If this is the case then you can't say 34 Million are not being traded since someone just comes in occasionally and dumps and can do it anytime they like, otherwise the big wallets are trading to themselves since I don't see the 200K wallets selling and disbursing the coin properly and much of this volume may have left to stake. I watched for over a year and no real change.
Im no expert, but the only way any crypto works long term is if the coin can be exchanged for goods/services, so for SLR we need solar installers to accept it in place of fiat, then it not claimants selling out to BTC/LTC or whatever, its an actual economy.

SolarCoin Address: 8cESoZyjFvx2Deq6VjQLqPfAwu8UXjcBkK
Gridcoin Address: SAuPu8zarzQykWLGwxc6JRvW3imM8YU9wc
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January 28, 2016, 07:58:52 PM
 #3049

For those interested SolarCoin will be presenting at the clean energy conference in New York in April 5, 2016.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.conference-board.org%2Fpdf_free%2Fagendas%2F904016%2520Flyer_Clean%2520Energy.pdf

Solarcoin (§ SLR) are like airmiles. Each 1 Mhw generated gets you §1 free. Solarcoins can purchase what others will trade: USD,BTC, Soy candles..etc.
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January 29, 2016, 12:39:04 AM
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I agree with Nick. The volume won't stay low forever.
One of the main reasons I am so exited about Solarcoin is because it's so unpopular among cryptos right now.
I think once the Bitcoin block size issues get resolved once and for all we could see a new all time high.
We should concentrate on getting SLR added to more exchanges. That's the only way people will get to know Solarcoin faster. I think once we are on more exchanges the claims might start to increase as well.  
I have been actively messaging a bunch of exchanges to add Solarcoin and it't not easy to say the least. Most people probably don't even take the time to take a look at the project.
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC. And you can bet the bit of cash I make on these pumps with other coins is going straight into SLR  Wink
At the same time I think a lot of people are just sitting on a sh*tload of litecoins desperately waiting for the price to go up so they can sell.
And that's where Solarcoin comes back into play. I think a lot of Litecoins market cap will come to Solarcoin if it succeeds to get onto more exchanges. (Either way I  still hold a lot of litecoins because you never know with crypto Wink )
I believe the solarcoin price is a reflection of how successful it already is!
Some might say it's just manipulation but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself what defines manipulation? After all it's a free market and someone or a group of people is/are buying up almost all the Solarcoin's for sale. This is VERY real and it has been slowly happening over the last 2.5 Years. And here we are today, and it's still going on.
That's exactly why I have absolutely no problem holding so many solarcoins. I can't find any other crypto out there with the kind of community like this coin has. I almost can't put it into words.
I'm not going to lie, I sold quite a few coins on the way up. I look forward to buying them back if I ever get the chance to do so (if the price goes back down)
Anyway I have to admit I am absolutely in love with Solarcoin. I love every aspect of it and I just love checking my wallet and seeing the stakes rolling in. There is no other coin like it out there. I will always be a supporter of this awesome project and I would love to see Solarcoin succeed along next to Bitcoin. I can see the day Solarcoin will be used hand in hand with bitcoin extending the power of decentralized currencies/commodities even further.

2016 is off to a great start. Lets hope we will reach the sun. I have a feeling 2016 is the year.

Edit: Always remember: IF we see another crypto rally it could be HUGE for Solarcoin. Just do the math, 34 Million available. MUCH less in circulation. If volumes start to increase we could witness some craaaazy sh*t  Grin

Yeah the math is what I worry about. Leaky ceiling. I hope the price goes up just to see your posts, you must hold a ton of SLR. SLR may be Decentralized but Centrally located Smiley

Quote
You have all these noobs pumping and dumping coins like Vertcoin or Dash or Maxcoin. Were do you think all that money is going to go once people cash out? Obviously back into BTC or LTC.

Where do you think Claimers will go with their BTC after they sell SLR? Double edged sword here, wanting more claimers since it will make the price to go up? Good to see you are smarter than everyone else buying low and selling high though. Not sure why 34 Million is much less in circulation, I take it you meant less than 98 Billion?

Litecoin will only keep going down in price much like all other alt coins. I predicted the price to drop to $3 from $15 on LTC and it will drop further. I think it will go to a dollar and then a quarter. How can it recover from the buy low sell high just like you state you like to do? You have to Buy LOW and Sell HIGH like everyone else while competing with them, and this is while mining is going on. Same goes for any other coin acting like a stock. Good luck with your LTC!

You are right Solarcoin is not very decentralized yet but I believe we can get there. First of all we need more exchanges to add SLR and the claiming process needs to become automated and secured by an algorithm. In other words we need to eliminate the trust. Even though I trust the Solarcoin foundation there are plenty of people out there that may not. It is a single point of failure and that problem needs to be addressed sooner or later.
About the Solarcoins I hold: I bought most of them very early on maybe over 2 Years ago. I liked the idea and decided to give it a shot.
I'm not sure how you would define a ton but yes im quite happy with the stake I have Smiley

Indeed we have a double edged sword :p But in all honesty I don't see a problem with people buying in for the price to go up. Obviously People are going to sell when they make profits (you would be stupid to buy if you didn't think it's going to be worth more one day). But I know I am NEVER going to sell all of my SLR. Im always going to keep some coins in my staking wallet.

I said 34 Million available and less in circulation beuse there is no way there are more than 400-500k Solarcoins being traded right now. (moving around) and that number is very generous. And if you have been around for the last couple of Bitcoin hype cycles you probably know shit hits the fan and Altcoins start to get some serious volume on the buy side. I'm saying if this happens again we will se unbelievable prices for Solarcoin because it is so scarce right now and so few people are claiming it. Its just supply and demand and as long as it's being traded on bittrex it will go up if/when bitcoin reaches a new all time high.

I wouldn't give up on litecoin so fast. It has a history of deceiving people into being dead and then suddenly exploding. The Litecoin market is very manipulated and keep in mind that it is always more profitable to keep the price as low as possible when you manipulate something. What's going to happen if we see bitcoin go really high again? I belive the price won't be able to be kept down because Litecoins market cap will be pulled up along with bitcoins. Just like all other altcoins. These are just the obervations I have made over the last couple of years. Obviously there is now way to predict the future but lets just say I really wouldn't be surprised if we saw 7500$ bitcoin and a 120-220$ and maybe a 2-5$ Solarcoin. Don't worry you can call me crazy but those are the prices i'm hoping to see in 2016.

I believe SolarCoin has to get to $2 to $5 just to make it worth claiming. But it can't stay there, Leaky Ceiling, gold rush type scenarios play out. If more people claim to sell out than buy then it goes down again. Buy low etc and even you do this. You may argue $2 is the new low but 1 satoshi is the real low after all coin are disbursed. All real buyers own the coin and no new buyers come in high enough to sustain. Since the original holders will hold and wait for new buyers and won't be able to buy their own coin on the exchange anymore since they no longer hold the majority, they can not pump anymore and make as much money with the coin in between their sells when they buy. If I own 3/4 of the total coin in circulation I can pump with ease. Soon as I only own 1/4 it becomes less profitable and more people are selling along with me.

I know you will have your opportunity to sell high since you can see the distribution wallets and they don't change their numbers. So they are buying and selling to themselves. That is why there are 2 big wallets on Bittrex that never move yet large sells happen and you don't see them change totals. The other wallets don't have enough to cover the sells, or a wallet comes in and dumps occasionally could be the scenario. If this is the case then you can't say 34 Million are not being traded since someone just comes in occasionally and dumps and can do it anytime they like, otherwise the big wallets are trading to themselves since I don't see the 200K wallets selling and disbursing the coin properly and much of this volume may have left to stake. I watched for over a year and no real change.
Im no expert, but the only way any crypto works long term is if the coin can be exchanged for goods/services, so for SLR we need solar installers to accept it in place of fiat, then it not claimants selling out to BTC/LTC or whatever, its an actual economy.

Ok sure you would think that solves it I can understand it seems that simple, but the problem then becomes how do the installers sell it to recoup their fees and profit vs costs?

Here is the main problem with alts in general... They must PEG to BitCoin for worth.

Now lets say that an installer is crazy enough to accept SLR in Lieu of Fiat. It would have to be a big wallet to do a $25,000 install. Right now SolarCoin is at .00004803 I will give the benefit of the doubt and go .00005000. BitCoin is at $378 or .00005x378=.0189 US Cents per SLR. Lets just say it is 2 cents since it is hypothetical anyways. So a $25,000 install would cost 25,000/.02 or 1,250,000 SolarCoins or 66.13 BitCoin.

So instead of taking their FIAT alone for $25,000 they must enter into a risky financial exchange of buying BitCoin to then buy SLR. The very act of Buying though would raise the price so they may not need 1,250,000 SLR to do the deal. If they place their buys at a wall and accumulate to sellers then they would need the 1,250,000. If they buy and run up the price, now the coin has no buy support and guess who has to sell off now? The Installer! The installer would be OK if the price stayed high. But Noooo! People want to buy low. They see the run up and keep their buys low ready for the installer to pounce on them with selling to get Liquidity for their Costs of Goods and Payroll etc. This doesn't even mention trading fees or exchange from FIAT to BitCoin and exposure in other markets.

Now if you just held that 1,250,000 SLR from Mining it isn't such a bad deal. But you are asking people to subvert the very nature of FIAT to buy BitCoin to Buy SLR and then ask the Installer to Accept it so they can then Sell it to BitCoin then to FIAT just to facilitate the existence of a coin. The best step would be to just take the FIAT go to the installer and be done. I hate to put this spin on it but most people do not realize Crypto is a Zero sum game. I had laid out ways to subvert this game and sustain the coin too but it alleviates greed and greed always trumps alternatives.

This is why service backed infrastructure is crucial to sustain a coin, like Storj coin. Something that can be used in exchange for a coin. If the energy from the actual Solar Panel could be traded or used it would mean something, but there is no way you can facilitate the transaction across public utilities spanning different companies and geographic boundaries. First because you don't own the transmission lines or maintain them, you just pay to access them or go off grid.
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January 29, 2016, 04:23:24 AM
 #3051

For those interested SolarCoin will be presenting at the clean energy conference in New York in April 5, 2016.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.conference-board.org%2Fpdf_free%2Fagendas%2F904016%2520Flyer_Clean%2520Energy.pdf


Very exciting i see solar city will be in attendance.

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January 29, 2016, 04:59:22 AM
 #3052

Ok sure you would think that solves it I can understand it seems that simple, but the problem then becomes how do the installers sell it to recoup their fees and profit vs costs?

Here is the main problem with alts in general... They must PEG to BitCoin for worth.

Now lets say that an installer is crazy enough to accept SLR in Lieu of Fiat. It would have to be a big wallet to do a $25,000 install. Right now SolarCoin is at .00004803 I will give the benefit of the doubt and go .00005000. BitCoin is at $378 or .00005x378=.0189 US Cents per SLR. Lets just say it is 2 cents since it is hypothetical anyways. So a $25,000 install would cost 25,000/.02 or 1,250,000 SolarCoins or 66.13 BitCoin.

So instead of taking their FIAT alone for $25,000 they must enter into a risky financial exchange of buying BitCoin to then buy SLR. The very act of Buying though would raise the price so they may not need 1,250,000 SLR to do the deal. If they place their buys at a wall and accumulate to sellers then they would need the 1,250,000. If they buy and run up the price, now the coin has no buy support and guess who has to sell off now? The Installer! The installer would be OK if the price stayed high. But Noooo! People want to buy low. They see the run up and keep their buys low ready for the installer to pounce on them with selling to get Liquidity for their Costs of Goods and Payroll etc. This doesn't even mention trading fees or exchange from FIAT to BitCoin and exposure in other markets.

Now if you just held that 1,250,000 SLR from Mining it isn't such a bad deal. But you are asking people to subvert the very nature of FIAT to buy BitCoin to Buy SLR and then ask the Installer to Accept it so they can then Sell it to BitCoin then to FIAT just to facilitate the existence of a coin. The best step would be to just take the FIAT go to the installer and be done. I hate to put this spin on it but most people do not realize Crypto is a Zero sum game. I had laid out ways to subvert this game and sustain the coin too but it alleviates greed and greed always trumps alternatives.

This is why service backed infrastructure is crucial to sustain a coin, like Storj coin. Something that can be used in exchange for a coin. If the energy from the actual Solar Panel could be traded or used it would mean something, but there is no way you can facilitate the transaction across public utilities spanning different companies and geographic boundaries. First because you don't own the transmission lines or maintain them, you just pay to access them or go off grid.

You're assuming Solarcoin must trade through Bitcoin. Given enough time and claims there will be a cash market. Trading between cash and Solarcoin will be as easy as linking your bank to a coinbase like website, and presto you have solarcoin or cash. With enough claims and enough network effect the coins will spread out enough to create an economy. Bitcoin had it easy because it was the first. Being first has its advantages. You don't have to be sexy or do anything special other than exist. Solarcoin has a purpose other than just transaction value. It's already grown past its original purpose but still retains all of its original intent. A lot of that had to do with the switch to PoST. But that's a good thing. it's lighter, faster, quicker to adapt to change. It may just beat out Bitcoin as several other crypto currencies are going to do if Bitcoin continues to emulate a turtle walking uphill in the desert sands.

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January 29, 2016, 07:21:44 AM
 #3053

Im no expert, but the only way any crypto works long term is if the coin can be exchanged for goods/services, so for SLR we need solar installers to accept it in place of fiat, then it not claimants selling out to BTC/LTC or whatever, its an actual economy.

Say they accepted like 5-10% in Solarcoin. That would be huge!

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January 29, 2016, 12:06:48 PM
 #3054

Ok sure you would think that solves it I can understand it seems that simple, but the problem then becomes how do the installers sell it to recoup their fees and profit vs costs?

Here is the main problem with alts in general... They must PEG to BitCoin for worth.

Now lets say that an installer is crazy enough to accept SLR in Lieu of Fiat. It would have to be a big wallet to do a $25,000 install. Right now SolarCoin is at .00004803 I will give the benefit of the doubt and go .00005000. BitCoin is at $378 or .00005x378=.0189 US Cents per SLR. Lets just say it is 2 cents since it is hypothetical anyways. So a $25,000 install would cost 25,000/.02 or 1,250,000 SolarCoins or 66.13 BitCoin.

So instead of taking their FIAT alone for $25,000 they must enter into a risky financial exchange of buying BitCoin to then buy SLR. The very act of Buying though would raise the price so they may not need 1,250,000 SLR to do the deal. If they place their buys at a wall and accumulate to sellers then they would need the 1,250,000. If they buy and run up the price, now the coin has no buy support and guess who has to sell off now? The Installer! The installer would be OK if the price stayed high. But Noooo! People want to buy low. They see the run up and keep their buys low ready for the installer to pounce on them with selling to get Liquidity for their Costs of Goods and Payroll etc. This doesn't even mention trading fees or exchange from FIAT to BitCoin and exposure in other markets.

Now if you just held that 1,250,000 SLR from Mining it isn't such a bad deal. But you are asking people to subvert the very nature of FIAT to buy BitCoin to Buy SLR and then ask the Installer to Accept it so they can then Sell it to BitCoin then to FIAT just to facilitate the existence of a coin. The best step would be to just take the FIAT go to the installer and be done. I hate to put this spin on it but most people do not realize Crypto is a Zero sum game. I had laid out ways to subvert this game and sustain the coin too but it alleviates greed and greed always trumps alternatives.

This is why service backed infrastructure is crucial to sustain a coin, like Storj coin. Something that can be used in exchange for a coin. If the energy from the actual Solar Panel could be traded or used it would mean something, but there is no way you can facilitate the transaction across public utilities spanning different companies and geographic boundaries. First because you don't own the transmission lines or maintain them, you just pay to access them or go off grid.

You're assuming Solarcoin must trade through Bitcoin. Given enough time and claims there will be a cash market. Trading between cash and Solarcoin will be as easy as linking your bank to a coinbase like website, and presto you have solarcoin or cash. With enough claims and enough network effect the coins will spread out enough to create an economy. Bitcoin had it easy because it was the first. Being first has its advantages. You don't have to be sexy or do anything special other than exist. Solarcoin has a purpose other than just transaction value. It's already grown past its original purpose but still retains all of its original intent. A lot of that had to do with the switch to PoST. But that's a good thing. it's lighter, faster, quicker to adapt to change. It may just beat out Bitcoin as several other crypto currencies are going to do if Bitcoin continues to emulate a turtle walking uphill in the desert sands.

Not assuming, I was told by the SolarCoin Devs that you can not go to FIAT or it is a Securities Act Violation. BitCoin is the only one allowed to be traded for FIAT. I scratched my head the whole time since it is only 1 step removed from FIAT to BitCoin so what is the difference? If you can go to FIAT by just creating a coin and suddenly out of thin air people can send Fiat for a coin and give the maker and most worthy miners of the coin money for nothing but their time and hash power, it sounds like the way to go.

This still doesn't solve the dilemma I stated about why to buy SolarCoin or any Alt coin even BitCoin for that matter. Just to facilitate its existence? Yeah SolarCoin is fast and light etc. but why buy it and how do you support even $25,000 worth of merchant transactions without crashing the market? There are not enough coin in existence to deal with the low buys that will be forced out on the constant dive of selloffs. If that is the purpose of the coin to be used right? Or are people just supposed to come in at a frenzy and think that it is the next BitCoin and just buy buy buy? There are only 12 BitCoin in the market and most of the buys are very low. So to get a transaction in real time a merchant can sell $4,440.00 worth of goods and then the coin is at .00000002 and someone holds a ton of coin at that position. Now your positions are eroded just because of one single sale from a Panel Installer for 1 Job on 1 Roof.

More than just Transaction Value? I guess I can't argue with perception.
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January 29, 2016, 12:08:07 PM
 #3055

Im no expert, but the only way any crypto works long term is if the coin can be exchanged for goods/services, so for SLR we need solar installers to accept it in place of fiat, then it not claimants selling out to BTC/LTC or whatever, its an actual economy.

Say they accepted like 5-10% in Solarcoin. That would be huge!

To stay competitive. Then PV producers start accepting SLR from installeres. To stay competitive. Then raw material producers start accepting SLR from PV producers. To stay competitive...etc.etc... Along this chain, everyone adds SLR to their workers' compensations - since these are the people who will want it the most - in order to get the better deals to install/expand the PV installations on their roofs/cars/etc. And to do more of that, they will need more SLR than what they already claim for their Solar electricity production. So ...why not offer to start selling their excess electricity directly for SLR?...

Why even put any thought limits on the possibilities for expansion into the actual economy? NO exchange to/from BTC/FIAT required.
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January 29, 2016, 12:25:07 PM
 #3056

Im no expert, but the only way any crypto works long term is if the coin can be exchanged for goods/services, so for SLR we need solar installers to accept it in place of fiat, then it not claimants selling out to BTC/LTC or whatever, its an actual economy.

Say they accepted like 5-10% in Solarcoin. That would be huge!

To stay competitive. Then PV producers start accepting SLR from installeres. To stay competitive. Then raw material producers start accepting SLR from PV producers. To stay competitive...etc.etc... Along this chain, everyone adds SLR to their workers' compensations - since these are the people who will want it the most - in order to get the better deals to install/expand the PV installations on their roofs/cars/etc. And to do more of that, they will need more SLR than what they already claim for their Solar electricity production. So ...why not offer to start selling their excess electricity directly for SLR?...

Why even put any thought limits on the possibilities for expansion into the actual economy?

Even if translated differently in a claim I think it falls under anti-trust law. You are not competing fairly since you don't have a cost to maintain the power lines or respond to power outages. You can't sell the electricity for SLR, because you don't own the lines that carries the power, your excess power only relates to your meter. You would have to bundle claims somehow as one entity and maybe use a Tax write off for each installation or location within an agreement as a whole. I think this may be going on with the large installers behind the scenes since they own the Panels and then lease them. But you would have to buy the SLR as a corporation and then not sell the SLR to take the loss but create the Value. This might work if your corporation sells the Solar Panels and makes a profit to then write off the excess power and boost SLR. But it is convoluted to say the least.
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January 29, 2016, 12:42:18 PM
 #3057

Im no expert, but the only way any crypto works long term is if the coin can be exchanged for goods/services, so for SLR we need solar installers to accept it in place of fiat, then it not claimants selling out to BTC/LTC or whatever, its an actual economy.

Say they accepted like 5-10% in Solarcoin. That would be huge!

To stay competitive. Then PV producers start accepting SLR from installeres. To stay competitive. Then raw material producers start accepting SLR from PV producers. To stay competitive...etc.etc... Along this chain, everyone adds SLR to their workers' compensations - since these are the people who will want it the most - in order to get the better deals to install/expand the PV installations on their roofs/cars/etc. And to do more of that, they will need more SLR than what they already claim for their Solar electricity production. So ...why not offer to start selling their excess electricity directly for SLR?...

Why even put any thought limits on the possibilities for expansion into the actual economy?

I think it is called anti-trust law. You are not competing fairly since you don't have a cost to maintain the power lines or respond to power outages. You can't sell the electricity for SLR, because you don't own the lines that carries the power, your excess power only relates to your meter. You would have to bundle claims somehow as one entity and maybe use a Tax write off for each installation or location within an agreement as a whole. I think this may be going on with the large installers behind the scenes since they own the Panels and you lease them. But you would have to buy the SLR as a corporation and then not sell the SLR to take the loss but create the Value. This might work if your corporation sells the Solar Panels and makes a profit to then write off the excess power and boost SLR. But it is convoluted to say the least.

What you refer to is called the Status Quo.
What I refer to is what we are aiming at in this project . It's called Tomorrow, and it's us creating it.
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January 29, 2016, 12:44:42 PM
 #3058

Quote
So ...why not offer to start selling their excess electricity directly for SLR?...

You are changing the Claim since it has been paid for the generation of electricity already as a KWh claim. So how do you pay for excess not used when it has already achieved the output?
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January 29, 2016, 12:48:24 PM
 #3059

Im no expert, but the only way any crypto works long term is if the coin can be exchanged for goods/services, so for SLR we need solar installers to accept it in place of fiat, then it not claimants selling out to BTC/LTC or whatever, its an actual economy.

Say they accepted like 5-10% in Solarcoin. That would be huge!

To stay competitive. Then PV producers start accepting SLR from installeres. To stay competitive. Then raw material producers start accepting SLR from PV producers. To stay competitive...etc.etc... Along this chain, everyone adds SLR to their workers' compensations - since these are the people who will want it the most - in order to get the better deals to install/expand the PV installations on their roofs/cars/etc. And to do more of that, they will need more SLR than what they already claim for their Solar electricity production. So ...why not offer to start selling their excess electricity directly for SLR?...

Why even put any thought limits on the possibilities for expansion into the actual economy?

I think it is called anti-trust law. You are not competing fairly since you don't have a cost to maintain the power lines or respond to power outages. You can't sell the electricity for SLR, because you don't own the lines that carries the power, your excess power only relates to your meter. You would have to bundle claims somehow as one entity and maybe use a Tax write off for each installation or location within an agreement as a whole. I think this may be going on with the large installers behind the scenes since they own the Panels and you lease them. But you would have to buy the SLR as a corporation and then not sell the SLR to take the loss but create the Value. This might work if your corporation sells the Solar Panels and makes a profit to then write off the excess power and boost SLR. But it is convoluted to say the least.

What you refer to is called the Status Quo.
What I refer to is what we are aiming at in this project . It's called Tomorrow, and it's us doing it.


No I am Quoting Laws. You need to build your own wired network for electricity transmission is all. But there are not that many claimers so just hook em all up together as one. Kinda bogus that Power Companies are just that... In Power.
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January 29, 2016, 12:49:24 PM
 #3060

Quote
So ...why not offer to start selling their excess electricity directly for SLR?...

You are changing the Claim since it has been paid for the generation of electricity already as a KWh claim. So how do you pay for excess not used when it has already achieved the output?


Who says I will always want my generation of electricity to be paid in FIAT? If I see more value in getting SLR instead of FIAT, I will start selling for SLR and abandon FIAT altogether.
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