[XDN] DarkNote. Anonymous 100% PoW CPU+Untraceable Crypto Messages+GUI Client!

[smooth]

attract the slashdot neckbeard types (and some of their kitten loving mums/sisters).  

Yes, no doubt the duck dark loving types hang out "elsewhere."

   Maybe they do?  So what if they don't?

Please expand on this innuendo instead of teasing us with half-snark.

Are you saying that a sub/r is a good place to DYODD, as opposed to reading (or having your people read) the freely-available XDN code?

There wasn't really any innuendo, just that I don't believe the story about thousands of people "somewhere" mining XDN and not even knowing about bitcointalk. Again, not reading it regularly and not posting and not liking it I believe. Not knowing about it, I don't.

Likewise I don't believe that mining out most of the coins in a few months was motivated by the desire to beat ASICs nor necessary to do so. (ASICs would likely take many, many more months than that, if not years).

Anyway reading code is not really a panacea. See heartbleed, shellshock and the tree-hash crptonote bug, all of which involved freely-avialble code (the first two code that was not only freely available but widely used and widely viewed for a long time).

So I suggest in addition to reading code that you try to know who you are dealing with. If they are prone to make implausible claims, some caution about motives might be is warranted.

[iCEBREAKER]

I don't believe the story about thousands of people "somewhere" mining XDN and not even knowing about bitcointalk. Again, not reading it regularly and not posting and not liking it I believe. Not knowing about it, I don't.

Likewise I don't believe that mining out most of the coins in a few months was motivated by the desire to beat ASICs nor necessary to do so. (ASICs would likely take many, many more months than that, if not years).

Anyway reading code is not really a panacea. See heartbleed, shellshock and the tree-hash crptonote bug, all of which involved freely-avialble code (the first two code that was not only freely available but widely used and widely viewed for a long time).

So I suggest in addition to reading code that you try to know who you are dealing with. If they are prone to make implausible claims, some caution about motives might be is warranted.

Thank you for expanding on your previous opaque nuance.

Is there any sort of analysis which may dis/prove whether or not your allegations are true?  If not, what is the point of making them?

Given the template of DOGE, I now am more open to the idea of non-specialists embracing a properly-marketed crypto like DUCK than in the bad old days of basement-dweller-only exclusivity.  

Of course reading code is not a panacea.  But while not a literal cure-all, 'many-eyes' is still the best tool in the shed.

While caution is always advisable, most people can't read code and vanishingly few if any know the identity of Master Satoshi, so why not let the protocol, be it BTC or XDN, speak for itself instead of attempting to divine motives?

The claim that there exist non-bitcointalk nexuses of crypto-enthusiasts is not implausible in this day and age.  From the perspective of a bright modern teenager, the span from 2009-present is ~1/3 of a lifetime.  We old men of Gen X should not impose our get-off-the-lawn precepts on the post-Google Padawan who appear in the case of Cryptonote to have exceeded their Jedi teachers.

Sorry to be a scold, but you appear to be breaking New Economy Rules 1, 6, and 8:  http://kk.org/newrules/blog/

[smooth]

Given the template of DOGE, I now am more open to the idea of non-specialists embracing a properly-marketed crypto like DUCK than in the bad old days of basement-dweller-only exclusivity.  

XDN is not DOGE. Perhaps it could be someday, but it isn't yet. And even then most DOGE proponents may not be Bitcoin participants but most were and are certainly at least aware of Bitcoin and bitcointalk. They may not like them, and in fact that has been part of the appeal of DOGE -- as something better (culturally if nothing else) then BTC -- but they are still aware of it.

While caution is always advisable, most people can't read code and vanishingly few if any know the identity of Master Satoshi, so why not let the protocol, be it BTC or XDN, speak for itself instead of attempting to divine motives?

The Master Satoshi example is often used but irrelevant. First of all, Satoshi didn't show up into an altcoin economy filled with scams and scammers, second of all, early Bitcoin developers were not all anonymous, and third of all, Satoshi interacted closely with other developers over period of time, proving and establishing a positive reputation (on which such comments referencing him now are based). It is a logical error to claim that because Satoshi is anonymous, someone else being anonymous and making questionable claims is not a potential red flag.

Your arguments basically come down to "it is possible that this story is true." Yes it is possible. I just don't find it plausible. Life is an exercise in making best judgements on the basis of available information, not (except on relatively rare occasion) proving or disproving absolute truths.

Finally, I'm not at all convinced of the existence of this post-google demographic at all. I think your invoking of intergenerational divide is on that basis misplaced and likely made up. Is there any actual evidence of younger internet participants abandoning google en masse? I haven't seen it.

EDIT: BTW, I agree with you about some cryptos being better marketed and having appeal with non-specialists, and in that I include this one. That is the main reason I am even paying attention here. However, the more I pay attention the more I see red flags of a sort that I don't see with, for example, DOGE (which I also follow and own quite a bit of).

[iCEBREAKER]

Given the template of DOGE, I now am more open to the idea of non-specialists embracing a properly-marketed crypto like DUCK than in the bad old days of basement-dweller-only exclusivity.  

XDN is not DOGE. Perhaps it could be someday, but it isn't yet. And even then most DOGE proponents may not be Bitcoin participants were and are certainly at least aware of Bitcoin and bitcointalk. They may not like them, and in fact that has been part of the appeal of DOGE -- as something better (culturally if nothing else) then BTC -- but they are still aware of it.

While caution is always advisable, most people can't read code and vanishingly few if any know the identity of Master Satoshi, so why not let the protocol, be it BTC or XDN, speak for itself instead of attempting to divine motives?

The Master Satoshi example is often used but irrelevant. First of all, Satoshi didn't show up into an altcoin economy filled with scams and scammers, second of all, early Bitcoin developers were not all anonymous, and third of all, Satoshi interacted closely with other developers over period of time, proving and establishing a positive reputation (on which such comments referencing him now are based). It is a logical error to claim that because Satoshi is anonymous, someone else being anonymous and making questionable claims is not a potential red flag.

Your arguments basically come down to "it is possible that this story is true." Yes it is possible. I just don't find it plausible. Life is an exercise in making best judgements on the basis of available information, not proving or disproving absolute truths.

I agree that XDN isn't DOGE, although in its silly larval DUCK stage it followed a very similar meme-heavy script.  Now as a mature DARK force, it features disruptive new features like anonymous encrypted message transfer, unlike technologically boring merged-mined DOGE.

I disagree that the DOGE and Reddit loving Shibe massive is aware of this obscure forum to any meaningful degree.  These days, BTCtalk is still as obscure to the select demographics who have heard about Bitcoin as Bitcoin was once to society at large.  Plus Shibes are friendly, while we thrive on conflict.  They like gift/tip economies, while we despise altruism.  Those contrasts typify what drove DOGE to its (surprisingly) large market cap and (shockingly) long-lived persistence.  XDN is not yet DOGE, but it *IS* the 2nd highest valued (post-BCN) CN coin.

As for the Master Satoshi debate, we don't know in what other circles dNote travels.  Within them, he may be as well known, positively regarded, and closely collaborative as Satoshi was here.  I respect parsimony, but I also appreciate the significance of known unknowns and thus try to keep an open mind (especially about the tactics of those who are smart enough to cynically deploy Occam's Razor in confounding analysis  ).

[smooth]

As for the Master Satoshi debate, we don't know in what other circles dNote travels.  Within them, he may be as well known, positively regarded, and closely collaborative as Satoshi was here.

Yes and in such circles he most certainly has different reputational capital (though not necessarily better) than he has here. We can only work with what we can see though.

[iCEBREAKER]

we don't know in what other circles dNote travels.  Within them, he may be as well known, positively regarded, and closely collaborative as Satoshi was here.

Yes and in such circles he most certainly has different reputational capital (though not necessarily better) than he has here. We can only work with what we can see though.

You are correct, non-observables are meaningless.

Here's what is observable:

XDN is open source, so anyone may examine and compile the code.

XDN used the 'DOGE' template proven to have mass appeal even among non-specialist demographics.

XDN had a very fast initial emission rate, so quick that many object to it as ninja fast-mined, although it certainly did head off ASICs.

XDN was for months priced low enough for widespread distribution, but now has the 2nd highest market cap of any CN coin.

XDN was able to move its blockchain out of RAM without months of academic overthinking, anal-retentive dithering, and requests for donations.

XDN has a very ambitious public roadmap.

XDN pioneered the disruptive new feature of Cryptonote-based encrypted private messaging.

[smooth]

XDN had a very fast initial emission rate, so quick that many object to it as ninja-mined, although it certainly did head off ASICs.

I wouldn't use the term ninja-mine, as that indicates a degree of invisibility I would reserve for certain other cases. It was certainly mined in the open, using rules published in advance. Nothing shady about it at all in that sense. Fast-mine is a better way to describe it, and as I said, much, much faster than necessary for the claimed goal of avoiding ASICs.

There may also be some issues with secretly optimized miners, and that is greatly magnified by the extremely fast emission curve, so one may reasonably ask whether insiders may have set that up to their own benefit. I don't remember the timeline of when duck was launched relative to when the cryptonote de-optimized miner was publicly fixed. I'll retract this if someone finds that the timeline does not allow insiders to have derived a major advantage.

XDN was for months priced low enough for widespread distribution, but now has the 2nd highest market cap of any CN coin.

The practical effect of that depends on how much actually traded and who traded it. If there appeared to be nothing going on, and insiders were merely holding or accumulating while readying future initiatives, that would not lead to widespread distribution at all. I don't know, and I suspect this is unknowable either way.

XDN was able to move its blockchain out of RAM without months of academic overthinking, anal-retentive dithering, and requests for donations.

They simply copied the BCN code, as far as I can tell. (I may be corrected on this, as I haven't carefully reviewed the two implementations side-by-side.) That is a mixed bag in my opinion, both on technical merits and also on the willingness to do so (it demonstrates either a high degree of trust of BCN, or a willingness to copy code that isn't vetted extremely carefully, or devoting significant resources on careful vetting of an implementation with questionable technical merits). All of these are problematic.

XDN has a very ambitious public roadmap.

XDN pioneered the disruptive new feature of Cryptonote-based encrypted private messaging.

Agree.

[iCEBREAKER]

I wouldn't use the term ninja-mine, as that indicates a degree of invisibility I would reserve for certain other cases. It was certainly mined in the open, using rules published in advance. Nothing shady about it at all in that sense. Fast-mine is a better way to describe it, and as I said, much, much faster than necessary for the claimed goal of avoiding ASICs.

My mistake, I will change it to "fast-mine" because we all know ninjas are silent and stealthy!

Was avoiding ASICs the stated goal of the fastmine?  Or is that just my interpretation?  I honestly forget, or never knew in the first place!  

EDIT: While vetting and/or copying BCN code has its problems, paralysis resulting in an ongoing need for 4GB free RAM is presents its own challenges/consequences.

EDIT2: I bought some cheap DuckNotes for the lulz, and sold at a very nice profit, but still nothing compared to the post-relaunch gains.

Thanks for the great feedback.

[smooth]

Was avoiding ASICs the stated goal of the fastmine?

That has been claimed on this thread recently. I don't know if that was stated at the beginning when it was happening.

[smooth]

EDIT: While vetting and/or copying BCN code has its problems, paralysis resulting in an ongoing need for 4GB free RAM is presents its own challenges/consequences.

If you are referring to Monero, that is factually incorrect. I have recently tested with 1.5 GB physical system RAM and it did work, if a bit clunky. With 2.5 GB it is not clunky. That is Linux, and I can't comment on Windows because I don't know.

Virtual memory is at this point a workable substitute in most cases, and not really that far from the Bytecoin method (application-level swapping of data).

But if you want to discuss that we should do it in a more appropriate place.

[joewills]

A stupid man sell 100M XDN.

[dNote]

It is interesting, that community is thinking about XDN supply curve in terms of avoiding ASICs. I discussed it several times. I should make more accurate explanation. And i will. But as for now, please, think the way we are trying to think.

1. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. That 7bln of XDN ~ current Earth population.
2. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. That 7bln of XDN is available for users in any way - mining or trading.
3. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. That 7bln of XDN is available for merchants, investors and traders. True example of Free Market Economy.  
4. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. Minimum block reward = 150 XDN + fee will make XDN mining profitable in this Century. Everything is so clear and predictable with static 150 XDN reward for the years. Average "generation transaction" has only 2 outputs with no "dust": 150 = (Out1)100+(Out2)50.
5. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. No gold rushing. Just CPU efficient PoW. Hope just users, who use XDN and its features, but massively. With XDN client miner you are able to submit ~70h/s on average PC for DarkNote network.
6. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. Do not care about BTC or fiat price, but care only about XDN trust, liquidity and real use. If i need to send you an encrypted message now, i can receive some XDN with mining, help the network in both mining and fee by sending a message.
7. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. It is much "cheaper" for the Environment and Mother Earth to avoid any worst "Bitcoin-goldrushing" waste of Energy. Let only true enthusiasts and users, but not miner - speculators to regulate XDN price and value. Like real Free Market Economy should work. There are some people who do not care about rewards in cryptocurrencies, i know it is hard to believe, but some of persons just submit hashes to make it stronger. In other way if some person have a big share of XDN, submitting hashes and making DarkNote stronger with rising difficulty is an advantage for him.
8. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. And that main amount is well decentralized between lots of ordinary users, miners, traders and investors.
9. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. We can just use it, not care about any "halving" stuff or unpredictable block rewarding.
10. The main amount ~7bln or XDN in circulation after 1 year. Mining is a business for at least half of miners in any cryptocurrency. Mining businesses usually do not care about cryptocurrency features, only care about mining profitability, acting by mine->sell scheme. I can`t judge this, in on hand we have a major network help, in other hand we have a huge centralization. XDN initial miners, i guess many of them are so called "mining businesses", sold lots of XDN and will sell it in future. That aspect made DarkNote to be decentralized in XDN units of value meaning.

To be continued ...

[Palmdetroit]

A stupid man sell 100M XDN.

Lots of volume today!

[dNote]

Some nice stats about XDN transactions boosting:

126,366 tx - 44000 block
136,560 tx - 45270 block

10194 transactions/1270blocks  = 8.02 transactions per block rate since lats halving!

According to fees, most likely lots of above transactions contains encrypted messages.

[jwinterm]

You can call me troll, neckbeard, or say I'm stirring up shit all you want. If you didn't want critical voices then go hide in a self-moderated thread. You're kind of correct kkraus69 about trolling, I guess I did a bit of that when the name was changed to ripoff darkcoin, but that isn't what's at issue over the last several pages.

The fact is that 75% of the total coins were emitted in the first several months, and by my analysis of the btctalk thread there were at most a few hundred people interested in ducknote here. There was a total of about 20 posts on ducknotetalk.org, 8 posts at http://talk.ducknote.cc/, and 26 posts on /r/ducknote. So, I'm just curious where are these thousands of other users whose forums can't be searched by google, yahoo, baidu, bing, or qq. If he wants to use the same lame excuse as bytecoin that all communications take place on the super duper top secret dark web, then just say so.

I own significant (for me) amounts of boolberry and monero; I'm not against cryptonotes, and I'm not shilling for monero. I just think information should be contested, especially when it sounds quite suspicious. Should no one say anything bad about bytecoin because it's cryptocurrency and we should all just relax and ride the wave of trillions of dollars pouring into crypto? I don't think so, plus I enjoy arguing.

[dNote]

You can call me troll, neckbeard, or say I'm stirring up shit all you want. If you didn't want critical voices then go hide in a self-moderated thread. You're kind of correct kkraus69 about trolling, I guess I did a bit of that when the name was changed to ripoff darkcoin, but that isn't what's at issue over the last several pages.

The fact is that 75% of the total coins were emitted in the first several months, and by my analysis of the btctalk thread there were at most a few hundred people interested in ducknote here. There was a total of about 20 posts on ducknotetalk.org, 8 posts at http://talk.ducknote.cc/, and 26 posts on /r/ducknote. So, I'm just curious where are these thousands of other users whose forums can't be searched by google, yahoo, baidu, bing, or qq. If he wants to use the same lame excuse as bytecoin that all communications take place on the super duper top secret dark web, then just say so.

I own significant (for me) amounts of boolberry and monero; I'm not against cryptonotes, and I'm not shilling for monero. I just think information should be contested, especially when it sounds quite suspicious. Should no one say anything bad about bytecoin because it's cryptocurrency and we should all just relax and ride the wave of trillions of dollars pouring into crypto? I don't think so, plus I enjoy arguing.

Why? tell me why, user should post anything if he mine XDN? the fact is that "few hundred people interested in ducknote here" you said, let it be 1 of 10 miners is posting here. OMG, 10*few hundreds = few thousands of XDN miners. Another fact is the number of workers that been submitted for xdn mining last months - 7-10k on average. If i person (user) got 2-3 workers on average we got, oh wait =  few thousands of XDN miners.
That is just miners, i am not speaking about traders.
You can`t change and disagree with the fact = thousands of users (i expect >10000 users) own some XDN. And another fact >10% of XDN is still available on exchanges.
You can fight the wind mill, and fight those, who mined it since first blocks, traded it since the early blocks, etc.
But DarkNote is one of the most fairly launched cryptocurrencies. Public and laud launch, great activity, etc, even now you mine with 20000XDN block reward on fairly low difficulty. Go, mine, get your XDN, what we are speaking about?  

[jwinterm]

You can call me troll, neckbeard, or say I'm stirring up shit all you want. If you didn't want critical voices then go hide in a self-moderated thread. You're kind of correct kkraus69 about trolling, I guess I did a bit of that when the name was changed to ripoff darkcoin, but that isn't what's at issue over the last several pages.

The fact is that 75% of the total coins were emitted in the first several months, and by my analysis of the btctalk thread there were at most a few hundred people interested in ducknote here. There was a total of about 20 posts on ducknotetalk.org, 8 posts at http://talk.ducknote.cc/, and 26 posts on /r/ducknote. So, I'm just curious where are these thousands of other users whose forums can't be searched by google, yahoo, baidu, bing, or qq. If he wants to use the same lame excuse as bytecoin that all communications take place on the super duper top secret dark web, then just say so.

I own significant (for me) amounts of boolberry and monero; I'm not against cryptonotes, and I'm not shilling for monero. I just think information should be contested, especially when it sounds quite suspicious. Should no one say anything bad about bytecoin because it's cryptocurrency and we should all just relax and ride the wave of trillions of dollars pouring into crypto? I don't think so, plus I enjoy arguing.

Why? tell me why, user should post anything if he mine XDN? the fact is that "few hundred people interested in ducknote here" you said, let it be 1 of 10 miners is posting here. OMG, 10*few hundreds = few thousands of XDN miners. Another fact is the number of workers that been submitted for xdn mining last months - 7-10k on average. If i person (user) got 2-3 workers on average we got, oh wait =  few thousands of XDN miners.
That is just miners, i am not speaking about traders.
You can`t change and disagree with the fact = thousands of users (i expect >10000 users) own some XDN. And another fact >10% of XDN is still available on exchanges.
You can fight the wind mill, and fight those, who mined it since first blocks, traded it since the early blocks, etc.
But DarkNote is one of the most fairly launched cryptocurrencies. Public and laud launch, great activity, etc, even now you mine with 20000XDN block reward on fairly low difficulty. Go, mine, get your XDN, what we are speaking about?  

We're speaking about the bolded portion in your quote. Let's consider the four major cryptonote currencies: boolberry, bytecoin, duck/darknote, and monero. I completed running my script on the main btctalk threads counting the number of users; the results are shown below:

Currency	Total # of posts	# of unique posters	# of people that posted more than once	# who posted at least 10x
Boolberry	4971	519	310	89
Bytecoin	4116	479	291	94
Darknote	360	81	30	7
Ducknote	1624	287	143	36
Monero	15456	1494	932	268

So, obviously Duck/Darknote has significantly less interest on btctalk. You made the claim that there are some communities that don't show up on google, but when searching on yahoo, bing, baidu, and qq, there are no other significant duck/darknote related forums that I can pull up on the first several pages of results.

I also don't buy the miner statistics argument you're making. You haven't shown any data, but even assuming your statistics are accurate there are two issues that I see with relying on the number of miners as an indicator of widespread adoption: (1) it is well known that coins using the cryptonight algorithm are the targets of botnets, so hundreds or thousands of these miners could be a single person/entity, and (2) I myself have probably 20 miners between cpus, gpus, and asics at home and at school. So, even considering just the latter argument, then the actual number of miners could be several thousand divided by 10 or 20, which is much more aligned with the number of btctalk users in the table above.

Duck/Darknote has also pretty consistently had the lowest hashrate during the period of June-August, even lower than Bytecoin, which is when more than 60% of coins were emitted, and even now the hashrate is about 10x lower than Monero. So, most of the Ducknotes were mined when it had the lowest hashrate among any cryptonote - I just don't see how very fast emission combined with very low hashrate equates with a fair distribution. I'm not even sure Duck/Darknote even has a more fair/broad distribution that Bytecoin at this point, tbh.

I do like the tech that you're implementing. I actually just bought a few 100k when price hit 29 satoshi on Polo, but I'm very skeptical of the assertion that the coin is as broadly distributed as you say, and also the claim that it had one of the most fair launches of any cryptocurrency.

Edit: Here is a link to the Python script used to count users from the various cryptonote threads: https://gist.github.com/jwinterm/b83090d6e0b238e5b8c7

[Jayjay04]

Major dump today...

[Digithusiast]

It is a big pleasure buying all those beautiful Darknotes at such a bargain.

[e-coinomist]

I do like the tech that you're implementing. I actually just bought a few 100k when price hit 29 satoshi on Polo, but I'm very skeptical of the assertion that the coin is as broadly distributed as you say, and also the claim that it had one of the most fair launches of any cryptocurrency.

So jwinterm, Jayjay04, Digithusiast and me bought in big today. Let's see where this goes. Anything but Bitcoin will survive.