KanoPool since 2014 🐈 - PPLNS and Solo 0.5% fee - Worldwide - 2437 blocks

[aurel57]

Unfortunately for us home miners, the best current gear can only be found second hand.  SP20s and S5 are out of stock from the manufacturers.  ....

Where have you been? S5's are back in stock (shipping 30th March and 9th June), and had 2 price increases already!

LOL... my mistake then.  When I checked yesterday/day before I swear they weren't on the site.  Carry on

And to keep this somewhat on topic... it's over 200% in here...

I was surprise to hear they were back on sale also. Not sure why the price increase? Also batch 6 states: Quantity limited units scheduled to be sold in the round and it's also the last round of production of S5.

And to somewhat stay on topic.... even at 200+% this pool is great. 

[pekatete]

Unfortunately for us home miners, the best current gear can only be found second hand.  SP20s and S5 are out of stock from the manufacturers.  ....

Where have you been? S5's are back in stock (shipping 30th March and 9th June), and had 2 price increases already!

LOL... my mistake then.  When I checked yesterday/day before I swear they weren't on the site.  Carry on

And to keep this somewhat on topic... it's over 200% in here...

That 200% is gone! And yes, they only came back on sale this morning .....

I was surprise to hear they were back on sale also. Not sure why the price increase? Also batch 6 states: Quantity limited units scheduled to be sold in the round and it's also the last round of production of S5.

And to somewhat stay on topic.... even at 200+% this pool is great.  

Apparently, a major competitor is not afterall going to tape out their brand new chips, thus there will not be any spectacular increase in (more efficient) network hashing power thus no equally spectacular anticipated difficulty increases, which should make the factored price increase ROI'able ... (is there such a word?).

[thedreamer]

Ok, so now that the block finished with 225% and I stayed in the whole time at or above the normal TH, does that mean the payout should be 225% of the normal @100% lock, right?

[aurel57]

Ok, so now that the block finished with 225% and I stayed in the whole time at or above the normal TH, does that mean the payout should be 225% of the normal @100% lock, right?

I believe your payout does not change, but means it took 2.25 times longer than normal to find the block.

[jonnybravo0311]

Ok, so now that the block finished with 225% and I stayed in the whole time at or above the normal TH, does that mean the payout should be 225% of the normal @100% lock, right?

Nope... That's PPS.  In that payout scheme you are paid for every share you submit.

In PPLNS you get paid for N shares.  So if a block takes 10% or 1000% you get the same.

[kano]

Ok, so now that the block finished with 225% and I stayed in the whole time at or above the normal TH, does that mean the payout should be 225% of the normal @100% lock, right?

The block luck determines how often you are rewarded, not how much you are rewarded per block.
In the case of the last 225% block, how many times your shares get rewarded depends on the future blocks after it.
Once for the 225% block and then how many more times after that depending on the future blocks.

It is first easiest to explain what would happen if every block was average 100%
The N in PPLNS we use is 500%Diff, i.e. when we find a block we reward ALL shares BACK 500% before the block, not just the shares in the block.
Thus when a block is found, each share rewarded, gets ~1/5 PPS
If every block was 100% and you mine for a full block A, and the pool found 4 blocks after it B,C,D,E, all 100%, then each share in block A would be rewarded ~1/5 PPS, 5 times in block A, B, C, D and E.
Thus it would average out that each share would be expected to get ~PPS (actually it's average about 99.5% PPS since the fee is 0.9% but the 99.1% includes transaction fees)

However, luck means that each block found is some random % between 1 share and infinity.
The expected average over time is 100%, but as you can see on the web site, they jump all over the place.

It is important to see that it is the shares that get rewarded, not your hash rate.
Each share is rewarded 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or more times purely dependent upon the pool block finding luck.
It doesn't matter if you stop mining, or start mining, or hop in and out.
Each share will be rewarded depending purely on the pool block finding luck after the share is submitted.
That luck is random future luck, so you can't guess it before you submit a share.

What this means in terms of "reward per block" vs "your hash rate", is that it currently takes the pool roughly 60hrs to generate 500%Diff shares, so your reward, from when you start mining, will climb up each block found until you've been mining for ~60hrs.
If you stop mining, your reward will decrease down for any blocks found in the ~60hrs after you stop mining.

However, over time, the payout should average out, but over a short term the expected payout over time will jump up and down dependent upon block finding luck.

[thedreamer]

So, I'm basically getting paid the same amount for a block that takes 225% vs one that takes 37%. Even though I stayed in the 225% one the whole time, while jumped out of the 105% one while messing with my miners.

I am completely misunderstanding this PPLNS , 500% thing.  *Sorry I'm a bit thick at this*. Usually I'm good at math, but this just doesn't jive with me. LOL

What's odd though, is that it still is a higher income than the Mining Earnings calculators I compared against, so I'm not concerned.

Weird

[philipma1957]

So, I'm basically getting paid the same amount for a block that takes 225% vs one that takes 37%. Even though I stayed in the 225% one the whole time, while jumped out of the 105% one while messing with my miners.

I am completely misunderstanding this PPLNS , 500% thing.  *Sorry I'm a bit thick at this*. Usually I'm good at math, but this just doesn't jive with me. LOL

What's odd though, is that it still is a higher income than the Mining Earnings calculators I compared against, so I'm not concerned.

Weird

225% = bad
100% = average
37% = good

pretend you are the only miner in the world.  all the gear is free.  you have 1 cost power.

225% means it cost more power to get the block = bad.
37% means not much power was spent to get the block good.

 another ways to look at it is  you have 1 machine pout of 100 machines.

exactly 1% of the pool .  so once you have been in the pool long enough (about 62 hours) you will always get 1% if you always hash 1% of the pool power.

so each block will always pay the same ~ .2475 btc   .

  so the 225% means a long wait for the coins

the 37% means a short wait for the coins.  always realize below 100% means  better then average. 

[kano]

So, I'm basically getting paid the same amount for a block that takes 225% vs one that takes 37%. Even though I stayed in the 225% one the whole time, while jumped out of the 105% one while messing with my miners.
...

Yes and No it's your shares that get rewarded when we find a block, not a hash rate.

For the 225% block, everyone in the pool is mining it.
The block only has 25.nnnBTC
The reward comes from the block.

... and the shares average, over time, to get rewarded 5 times in the 5 blocks after the shares so it takes time (~60hrs) for each share to reach it's reward limit.
Of course it could be 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or more times, but the long term average is expected to be 5 times.

Aside: the PPLNS N 500%Diff setting means that all shares in all blocks 500% or less, will get at least one reward.

Also as philipma1957 said above, the reward averages out over time and once you've mined for the full 500% (about 60 hours) your reward each block should be close to your hashrate % of the pool - unrelated to how long the block was.

[thedreamer]

Ah... Now I got it. I thought it was like this before, but then the 500% thing you guys threw at me confuzzled me. All set now. 

This forum needs a 'Thank You' button like my SMF Forum. Highly usable. 

[not.you]

I see we hit another block 45 minutes or so ago and I don't see a reward for it.  But I also see the network has not hit another block since so there are zero confirmations (although the blocklist on the website lists it as 1 confirm).  When should I expect to see the reward posted to my rewards list? 

[jonnybravo0311]

Case in point... after the 225% block the pool found another one after only 27.04%.  The more blocks the pool finds in the 500% (~60 hours) timeframe, the more you as a miner will make for your shares.  That's the gamble with PPLNS pools.  Good luck streaks reward the miners.  Bad luck streaks cost the miner.

I think Kano says it best here:

it's your shares that get rewarded when we find a block, not a hash rate.

When you find a share, that share lasts N time (give or take a bit because Kano's pool actually is a touch more than N typically).  For every block the pool finds during that time, the share is paid.  The higher your hash rate, the more shares you have that get paid during that N time.  So, pool finds 1 block?  You get paid once.  Pool finds 100 blocks?  You get paid 100 times.

[kano]

That last block is an orphan
2nd orphan block since the pool started.
Seems like the pool doesn't realise it's an orphan yet.
I'll fix that shortly.

[thedreamer]

Poor little orphans, someone should find them a wallet to call home.   

So what's an orphan anyways?

[daddyfatsax]

Poor little orphans, someone should find them a wallet to call home.   

So what's an orphan anyways?

Come on now. Little orphan Annie? Nothing?

A block that does not get confirmed is an orphaned block and thus not paid.

[jonnybravo0311]

That last block is an orphan
2nd orphan block since the pool started.
Seems like the pool doesn't realise it's an orphan yet.
I'll fix that shortly.

Whoever stole that block also solved 346914.  Quick 50BTC.

Poor little orphans, someone should find them a wallet to call home.  

So what's an orphan anyways?

An orphan is a block that loses the race to be accepted by the majority.  It happens when 2 miners submit a block solution at or near the same time.  Both get added to the chain.  Eventually one wins the race.  It stays on the chain.  The loser becomes the orphan.

[kano]

Poor little orphans, someone should find them a wallet to call home.   

So what's an orphan anyways?

It's a misnomer.
It's a block with no children in the main chain.
and it's parent has disowned it, not died

Basically, when 2 pools/people find a block at the same time, they are distributed around the internet.
Each bitcoind that receives them in the order they get them, decides either:
1) I've not seen any block at this height before. OK, I decide this is the next OK block
2) I've already seen a block at this height before, so you aren't the winner (but I'll hang on to you just in case that changes later)
The next network block will do the same thing and usually decide the winner as long as an orphan race doesn't happen with that block and thus repeat the process.

[pekatete]

I assume we don't get paid for orphans (and now clearly marked as such under bocks) ..... but still showing value under rewards!

[bitwitt]

Poor little orphans, someone should find them a wallet to call home.   

So what's an orphan anyways?

It's a misnomer.
It's a block with no children in the main chain.
and it's parent has disowned it, not died

Basically, when 2 pools/people find a block at the same time, they are distributed around the internet.
Each bitcoind that receives them in the order they get them, decides either:
1) I've not seen any block at this height before. OK, I decide this is the next OK block
2) I've already seen a block at this height before, so you aren't the winner (but I'll hang on to you just in case that changes later)
The next network block will do the same thing and usually decide the winner as long as an orphan race doesn't happen with that block and thus repeat the process.

BUMMER  

I remember the 1st ORPHAN!  nothing was worse than the second block we ever found was a orphan.
I got over it (kind of) and just kept on hashing.
by my figurers it cost about 7BTC.
It's still the best pool you can point all your miners at.  

[kano]

The payout information still needs correcting (will be done later)
I'll need to manually correct that (flag/remove it) since it shows the numbers but that payout of course wont happen.
The code that flags an orphan has yet to do the reward adjustments.
Also, the code that automatically detects the orphan didn't actually work - since the block was still in bitcoind but just as an orphan.
Will also need to fix that in the ckdb code.