Bitcoin Savings and Trust is probably a Ponzi Scheme: A Petition

[P4man]

I don't think there has to be anybody on the losing end. Say someone has a unique opportunity to turn $100 into $150 (say by buying something wholesale and selling it retail). So they borrow some Bitcoins, sell them for $100, turn the $100 into $150, buy $110 in Bitcoins, give those Bitcoins to the lender and pocket $40 in profit. Who is the loser here?

The borrower lost $10 of his profits on the bitcoin deal, and you could argue whoever bought or sold the wholesale something lost $50. At least they missed a $50 opportunity. This becomes semantics quickly because you may just as well say reselling those products created $50 of value to the customers, but the question regarding Pirate then remains roughly the same.

[1713908967]

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[1713908967]

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[Sukrim]

Just thinking about it if he is running the MMM ponzi scheme. If he does he would earn a 20% profit even when paying out 20%. In 5 months all the money someone else invested would be his profit. So if he gets the money out every month and the MMM ponzi scheme collapsed. He will be be able to payout a lot of ppl if he wanted to. All the money who is in longer then 5 months is full profit for him.

You're forgetting that he has to get the "profits" he pays out from somewhere.

Currently MMM does pay out, if you request it. The only question is - how long? It might also be that pirate is "investing" in a different ponzi scheme, but to me personally either money laundering (pay GPUMAX customers your dirty silkroad coins and get freshly mined anonymous ones) and/or ponzi investment makes the most sense.
The MMM scheme is based on "currency conversion" after all, with some russian funny money that is worth more and more USDs per month. This could be called "market arbitrage" or "day trading" in a broad sense and would be consistent with pirate's wordings (he might even sell the one or the other BTC to a friend at a price above MtGox, who knows?) about his operations so far.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

I don't think there has to be anybody on the losing end. Say someone has a unique opportunity to turn $100 into $150 (say by buying something wholesale and selling it retail). So they borrow some Bitcoins, sell them for $100, turn the $100 into $150, buy $110 in Bitcoins, give those Bitcoins to the lender and pocket $40 in profit. Who is the loser here?

The borrower lost $10 of his profits on the bitcoin deal, and you could argue whoever bought or sold the wholesale something lost $50. At least they missed a $50 opportunity. This becomes semantics quickly because you may just as well say reselling those products created $50 of value to the customers, but the question regarding Pirate then remains roughly the same.

The deal wouldn't have happened if he hadn't borrowed, since he wouldn't have had the funds to purchase the widget. Without borrowing he would have stayed at 0, with borrowing he gained $40. He profited $40 from the borrowing.

Same for the retail customers - without the borrowing they wouldn't have a widget, with the borrowing they have a widget, they paid $150 but it's worth more than that to them.

Again, the whole concept of commerce relies on the possibility of two parties to enter a mutually beneficial agreement where none of them loses. In our example both the lending and the retail sale are such agreements.

[nrd525]

Matthew, I have to say that for a 4,000+ Post Member of this forum, I find it difficult to believe that you have never attempted to find out who Pirate actually is....?

All of his personal information is quite readily available to anyone willing to do the legwork if not satisfied with the basics.

I just spent two hours searching the internet trying to figure out his identity.    The best thing I came up with is an IP address from an old bitcoin-otc chat log, and a picture which I don't know if it is real (do a google img search if you want to see it).  People say it is easy to find out his identity, but don't share or tell us how.  What is his identity?

[bitlane]

I don't think there has to be anybody on the losing end. Say someone has a unique opportunity to turn $100 into $150 (say by buying something wholesale and selling it retail). So they borrow some Bitcoins, sell them for $100, turn the $100 into $150, buy $110 in Bitcoins, give those Bitcoins to the lender and pocket $40 in profit. Who is the loser here?

The borrower lost $10 of his profits on the bitcoin deal, and you could argue whoever bought or sold the wholesale something lost $50. At least they missed a $50 opportunity. This becomes semantics quickly because you may just as well say reselling those products created $50 of value to the customers, but the question regarding Pirate then remains roughly the same.

The deal wouldn't have happened if he hadn't borrowed, since he wouldn't have had the funds to purchase the widget. Without borrowing he would have stayed at 0, with borrowing he gained $40. He profited $40 from the borrowing.

Same for the retail customers - without the borrowing they wouldn't have a widget, with the borrowing they have a widget, they paid $150 but it's worth more than that to them.

Again, the whole concept of commerce relies on the possibility of two parties to enter a mutually beneficial agreement where none of them loses. In our example both the lending and the retail sale are such agreements.

What if the borrowed/invested BTC were actually the widgets in question ?

Profit Breakdown of XY:
x% - buy more BTC to replace member-invested BTC & pay interest.
y% - LIVE OFF THE REST OF THE PROFITS LIKE A NORMAL PERSON WOULD DO ASSUMING BITCOIN IS THEIR PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME OR JOB.

Fuck, is it REALLY that difficult for everyone to understand ?

PEOPLE HAVE TO EAT....and NONE of you so-called GENIUSES EVER MENTIONED OR CONSIDERED THAT.....HENCE KEEPING 3RD PARTY BTC 'INVESTED'.

Ponzi, Sky is falling, tin-foil hats....FUCK ME.
Get a life.

[Raoul Duke]

It seems all the detractors simply forget that Pirate is the 8th most rated seller at Bitcoin-OTC lol

Morons...

[N12]

The previous two posts must be the most stupid and unreflected ones I have read in this whole thread.

bitlane: use all of his huge profits solely to maintain an incredibly expensive lifestyle? Get serious.
psy: An appeal to authority as actual reasoning? So if I have 29381093 ratings, It is impossible for me to scam anyone? Cool story bro.

Congrats, you both have earned yourself the additional ignore. Oh, and for the record, I am betting with my money that he does not run a Ponzi, so this is not even coming from a detractor as you two will surely accuse me of.

edit: I apologize, I just don’t like the hostile tone you guys employ. I think we could and should remain civil here.

[Raoul Duke]

Who said anything about scamming or not scamming? It was only a pointer for the morons who try to guess what does Pirate do with the bitcoins to maybe put their brains to work and think that he may just be selling them...
No need to guess when it's on plain sight

So, if you are not a detractor you must be a moron. Those were the only 2 types I referenced in my post, and if it got to your nerves you belong to one of those 2 types of persons for sure.

Thanks for the Ignore.

[Tomatocage]

I just spent two hours searching the internet trying to figure out his identity.    The best thing I came up with is an IP address from an old bitcoin-otc chat log, and a picture which I don't know if it is real (do a google img search if you want to see it).  People say it is easy to find out his identity, but don't share or tell us how.  What is his identity?

His info listed on his domain registration has been confirmed to be correct.

[BTCHero]

bitlane: use all of his huge profits solely to maintain an incredibly expensive lifestyle? Get serious.

I heard that he made enough money to buy Miami... but he pissed it away so fast.

This was never meant to last.

[Raoul Duke]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.msg702381#msg702381

who is notme ?

Like the username says, it's not you lol

[Tomatocage]

I just spent two hours searching the internet trying to figure out his identity.    The best thing I came up with is an IP address from an old bitcoin-otc chat log, and a picture which I don't know if it is real (do a google img search if you want to see it).  People say it is easy to find out his identity, but don't share or tell us how.  What is his identity?

His info listed on his domain registration has been confirmed to be correct.

It took you 2 hours to type "whois gpumax.com" ?

I'm not using whois.  But "Don Shrents" is a sort of anagram (I think that's the word anyway) for his actual name.  The point is, it's not like he's making a huge effort to hide his identity or anything.

[vampire]

I just spent two hours searching the internet trying to figure out his identity.    The best thing I came up with is an IP address from an old bitcoin-otc chat log, and a picture which I don't know if it is real (do a google img search if you want to see it).  People say it is easy to find out his identity, but don't share or tell us how.  What is his identity?

His info listed on his domain registration has been confirmed to be correct.

It took you 2 hours to type "whois gpumax.com" ?

I'm not using whois.  But "Don Shrents" is a sort of anagram (I think that's the word anyway) for his actual name.  The point is, it's not like he's making a huge effort to hide his identity or anything.

Takes about 5 mins to get his real name. It isn't Don Shrents, which does looks like an anagram.
 
edit:

wtf is this though. you need to know the name to look up

http://www.co.midland.tx.us/da/hotcheckwarrants/list/?lname=sz

[Tomatocage]

Takes about 5 mins to get his real name. It isn't Don Shrents, which does looks like an anagram.
 
edit:

wtf is this though. you need to know the name to look up

http://www.co.midland.tx.us/da/hotcheckwarrants/list/?lname=sz

What does O/20 U/500 mean?

[Philj]

yep. Over $20 but under $500

[ineededausername]

Takes about 5 mins to get his real name. It isn't Don Shrents, which does looks like an anagram.
 
edit:

wtf is this though. you need to know the name to look up

http://www.co.midland.tx.us/da/hotcheckwarrants/list/?lname=sz

What does O/20 U/500 mean?

Looks like "over 20 under 500 [dollars]"

[Tomatocage]

Well, I'm sure we've all made mistakes in the past.  I'm the first one to call someone out for being a scammer (check the Lending section if you don't believe me lol), but Pirateat40 seems to be legit IMHO.

[MarketNeutral]

Takes about 5 mins to get his real name. It isn't Don Shrents, which does looks like an anagram.
 
edit:

wtf is this though. you need to know the name to look up

http://www.co.midland.tx.us/da/hotcheckwarrants/list/?lname=sz

Kiting for bitcoins? Hmmm....that would be very profitable indeed.

Can his identity be conclusively linked to a name on the DA's list?

This a very curious development.

[JoelKatz]

According to my research, his real name is most likely one of the following:

Ends Thorns
Dents Horns
Tends Horns
Sends Thorn
Sends North
Shorn Dents

[PatrickHarnett]

Most likely?

Joel is not being serious, or else has not looked at the list.  How likely are any of those names - Mr North maybe, but who would call their kid Sends?