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Author Topic: http://www.pyramining.com/ - Discussion thread (no advertising here)  (Read 302864 times)
gweedo
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July 06, 2014, 04:05:27 AM
 #2721

Who did get back his inital investment with this?

There are actually 3755 deposits "completed" (it means they received the deposited amount + bonus), on ~11000 total deposits.

Pyra, how about pausing any accounts that are currently in profit (anything over their initial investment) so the rest of us have a chance.

What? This makes no sense... people in profit need to be punished for the laws of bitcoin...

So your all for the socialized aspect of this endeavour when it helps you? But when its time for someone else to profit just a little its a giant hell no?
You remind me of the politicians who say we need to get rid of medicare/medicaid/etc, then they take advantage of it for their parents or themselves even though they are already millionaires who can afford healthcare.

No I am all for keeping the terms, that I signed up and agreed to on the site. You guys are the politicians something isn't going your way, you want to bend the rules and make it work for you.

Thats a giant load of BULLSHIT and you know it. I am a round 1 asic investor and am nowhere seeing a profit, while those that were in at the beginning with fpga have seen plenty of profit and then some. The early investors got bonused with 2 rounds of asic while those of us in round 1 have seen very little. You don't want your money faucet turned off even if for just a short while so that others who weren't fpga investors or don't have a ton of referrals can see some of their money back.

I too would have been fine with him leaving things as they were, extrapolating out we would have seen our individual hashrate begin to grow as deposits/accounts were cleared out. BUT he made this change so here we are. The whole point of the design of pyramining seems to be to share the earnings with the group rather than an everyman for himself setup. But here you are arguing against the share the wealth when it doesn't suit you, but I would bet if the shoe was on the other foot you would be requesting exactly what we are, either split the extra hashrate with 100+ deposits, everyone, OR pause the older deposits that have seen a major fiat return. Considering that deposits got smaller as btc rose, it won't take as long to clear out the deposits that haven't profited at all and then your cashflow can be turned back on.

Who did get back his inital investment with this?

I did, and no I will not disclose the amount.

Then what is your malfunction. If you received at a minimum 100% return and you deposited when btc was sub 100$ you made at a minimum a 600% fiat based ROI, and you still have the remaining 10% along with anything left from referrals. Act like an actual human and let those of us that have only received 1% or so of our deposits see some return.

Mommy can't save you, welcome to life, cause I was invest the second day this was open then I should be punished. Yeah ok... Let me also give back all my bitcoin profits to everyone in fiat.

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simonk83
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July 06, 2014, 04:06:58 AM
 #2722

Who did get back his inital investment with this?

There are actually 3755 deposits "completed" (it means they received the deposited amount + bonus), on ~11000 total deposits.

Pyra, how about pausing any accounts that are currently in profit (anything over their initial investment) so the rest of us have a chance.

What? This makes no sense... people in profit need to be punished for the laws of bitcoin...

It makes perfect sense if you're not a greedy, self serving shit.

Because I agreed to a TOS and now that I happened to make money due to the fact I understand bitcoin and how mining actually works, I should be punished and that is self serving? Care to explain?

I guess you are the same person that would ask an exchange to give back your bitcoins after a bad trade, guess what this is life, welcome to it. I am a whale and you are guppy and I just shallowed you whole. Deal with it!

I hate 12yrs that don't understand anything about how the world works, your mommy can't save you.

Your opinion is worthless (along with your spelling and grammar).  
gweedo
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July 06, 2014, 04:09:45 AM
 #2723

Who did get back his inital investment with this?

There are actually 3755 deposits "completed" (it means they received the deposited amount + bonus), on ~11000 total deposits.

Pyra, how about pausing any accounts that are currently in profit (anything over their initial investment) so the rest of us have a chance.

What? This makes no sense... people in profit need to be punished for the laws of bitcoin...

It makes perfect sense if you're not a greedy, self serving shit.

Because I agreed to a TOS and now that I happened to make money due to the fact I understand bitcoin and how mining actually works, I should be punished and that is self serving? Care to explain?

I guess you are the same person that would ask an exchange to give back your bitcoins after a bad trade, guess what this is life, welcome to it. I am a whale and you are guppy and I just shallowed you whole. Deal with it!

I hate 12yrs that don't understand anything about how the world works, your mommy can't save you.

Your opinion is worthless (along with your spelling and grammar).   

I am still making money off pyraming Tongue

Want to earn 2500 SATOSHIS per hour? Come Chat and Chill in https://goseemybits.com/lobby
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July 06, 2014, 04:11:55 AM
 #2724

Because I agreed to a TOS and now that I happened to make money due to the fact I understand bitcoin and how mining actually works, I should be punished and that is self serving? Care to explain?

I guess you are the same person that would ask an exchange to give back your bitcoins after a bad trade, guess what this is life, welcome to it. I am a whale and you are guppy and I just shallowed you whole. Deal with it!

I hate 12yrs that don't understand anything about how the world works, your mommy can't save you.
Your opinion is worthless (along with your spelling and grammar).
His opinion is 100% right on the money... and your response resorting to insults and petty nitpicking, instantly forfeits your own position as without merit or substance.

=squeak=

simonk83
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July 06, 2014, 04:12:11 AM
 #2725

Who did get back his inital investment with this?

There are actually 3755 deposits "completed" (it means they received the deposited amount + bonus), on ~11000 total deposits.

Pyra, how about pausing any accounts that are currently in profit (anything over their initial investment) so the rest of us have a chance.

What? This makes no sense... people in profit need to be punished for the laws of bitcoin...

It makes perfect sense if you're not a greedy, self serving shit.

Because I agreed to a TOS and now that I happened to make money due to the fact I understand bitcoin and how mining actually works, I should be punished and that is self serving? Care to explain?

I guess you are the same person that would ask an exchange to give back your bitcoins after a bad trade, guess what this is life, welcome to it. I am a whale and you are guppy and I just shallowed you whole. Deal with it!

I hate 12yrs that don't understand anything about how the world works, your mommy can't save you.

Your opinion is worthless (along with your spelling and grammar).  

I am still making money off pyraming Tongue

Hopefully not for long Smiley
Squeaker
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July 06, 2014, 04:16:50 AM
 #2726

I am still making money off pyraming Tongue
Hopefully not for long Smiley
Keep dreaming... that is never going to happen...

Pyra has already addressed the issue of old incomplete deposits with the addition of a system to allocate the unallocated hashpower to the oldest 10 incomplete deposits at any given time.

Some disagreed with it, with some equally valid reasons for their disagreement, as were the reasons for going forward with that system, had validity to it also.

Sure we had some children throwing a tantrum, same as we do now.

The tantrum throwers, just need spankings. Time-outs are for sissies.

=squeak=

simonk83
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July 06, 2014, 04:52:35 AM
 #2727

I am still making money off pyraming Tongue
Hopefully not for long Smiley
Keep dreaming... that is never going to happen...



Look,  it's no surprise that those in profit don't want to see this happen, of course they don't, I get that.   That said, it's clear that the current system isn't working at all, and we need to start getting creative.   The majority of people here are never ever going to even get close to breaking even, let alone a profit.  It just seems the nice thing to do for those who are way ahead to step back a bit, but that's obviously naive of me.



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July 06, 2014, 05:00:29 AM
 #2728

Looks,  it's no surprise that those in profit don't want to see this happen, of course they don't, I get that.   That said, it's clear that the current system isn't working at all, and we need to start getting creative.   The majority of people here are never ever going to even get close to breaking even, let alone a profit.  It just seems the nice thing to do for those who are way ahead to step back a bit, but that's obviously naive of me.
Yes, it is naive of you.

You're not asking those who have reached 100% to be nice and step back.

You're asking them to be forcibly shoved out of the way, when they have every right to continue making the return that they earned.

I'm not a large investor at all, and only a few of my scattered deposits have fully completed, with a couple dozen still in various stages of completeness...

If all you're looking at is BTC, then no, I haven't broken even yet, but I'm not looking at that.

When I invested, I counted what I gave them as the value BTC was when it was given, since that is what Pyra cashed it out at to buy hardware (give or take a few percentage points), and when I look at the real value of my returns right now, I more than made my money back and then some, and I will continue to get more income still as more of my deposits completed.

My BTC balances from deposit to return is still behind, but the real-world value of what I have earned and continue to earn, I'm happy with.

This is what I signed up for, and I'm not getting out of anyone's way just because they are getting cold feet and can't see the real value of what they have.

If you can't wait anymore, you already have a mechanism available for you to avail yourself of. Cash out.

Otherwise, you should have known what you were getting into before you invested, and if you didn't, that isn't anyone else's fault but your own, and you don't get to shove other people out of your way for your own shortsightedness.

=squeak=

gweedo
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July 06, 2014, 05:02:01 AM
 #2729

Because I agreed to a TOS and now that I happened to make money due to the fact I understand bitcoin and how mining actually works, I should be punished and that is self serving? Care to explain?

I guess you are the same person that would ask an exchange to give back your bitcoins after a bad trade, guess what this is life, welcome to it. I am a whale and you are guppy and I just shallowed you whole. Deal with it!

I hate 12yrs that don't understand anything about how the world works, your mommy can't save you.
Your opinion is worthless (along with your spelling and grammar).
His opinion is 100% right on the money... and your response resorting to insults and petty nitpicking, instantly forfeits your own position as without merit or substance.

=squeak=


Trolls will troll... just ignore him, he clearly knows I am right hence why he has to insult.

I am still making money off pyraming Tongue
Hopefully not for long Smiley
Keep dreaming... that is never going to happen...



Looks,  it's no surprise that those in profit don't want to see this happen, of course they don't, I get that.   That said, it's clear that the current system isn't working at all, and we need to start getting creative.   The majority of people here are never ever going to even get close to breaking even, let alone a profit.  It just seems the nice thing to do for those who are way ahead to step back a bit, but that's obviously naive of me.

Tell wall street to return you money when you make a bad trade, tell the supermarket to reimburse you for your milk when the prices go down... I made money get over it, I did the research and figured out an optimal deposit amount, why should I not profit?

I just signed up to a site, and made money, what does that have to do with being nice or anything?

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simonk83
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July 06, 2014, 05:04:30 AM
 #2730

Ok, thanks for your opinion Sqeak, interesting perspective.

Hopefully we get some more opinions in here (and ones that aren't so hell bent on being holier than thou preachy dicks).

Agree with me on this or not, I don't care but I would like some more ideas from others on how we can get things moving in the right direction again.  

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July 06, 2014, 05:05:54 AM
 #2731

Tell wall street to return you money when you make a bad trade, tell the supermarket to reimburse you for your milk when the prices go down... I made money get over it, I did the research and figured out an optimal deposit amount, why should I not profit?

I just signed up to a site, and made money, what does that have to do with being nice or anything?
The way he's going, I'm half-expecting him to start ranting about social justice and redistribution and spreading the wealth and frothing at the mouth while he does it.

Some people just aren't strong enough to cope with capitalism and risk... in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he started shouting about switching to PPS too, cuz variance makes him twitchy...

=squeak=

edit: corrected quote attribution to proper poster

gweedo
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July 06, 2014, 05:31:05 AM
 #2732

Agree with me on this or not, I don't care but I would like some more ideas from others on how we can get things moving in the right direction again.

Yes I agree that maybe bitcoin mining for pyra is getting too difficult but that is business, you have to keep the profits up.

But removing profits from other users is not the answer.

Tell wall street to return you money when you make a bad trade, tell the supermarket to reimburse you for your milk when the prices go down... I made money get over it, I did the research and figured out an optimal deposit amount, why should I not profit?

I just signed up to a site, and made money, what does that have to do with being nice or anything?
The way he's going, I'm half-expecting him to start ranting about social justice and redistribution and spreading the wealth and frothing at the mouth while he does it.

Some people just aren't strong enough to cope with capitalism and risk... in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he started shouting about switching to PPS too, cuz variance makes him twitchy...

=squeak=

edit: corrected quote attribution to proper poster

He needs to learn, you win some and you lose some.

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Squeaker
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July 06, 2014, 05:49:29 AM
 #2733

He needs to learn, you win some and you lose some.
Yeah, I know...

Thing is, the biggest problem I see when I see people making their arguments is that they keep thinking of Bitcoin as a currency... granted, that is how it was hyped, but in practice it is actually a commodity, that just happens to be very easy to barter with in exchange for something else of value...

That's where I see Bitcoin having its strength, for barter... not as a currency itself.

It is the same with the stock investing... well, yeah, the stock prices pegged to crypto, keep going down... but that's because all of those businesses are operating in their local real-world currency, and have to be converted to BTC value through the exchange rate.

I stopped thinking about BTC balances and value itself a while ago, and just look at what the real-world value of it is, and I just can't be bent out of shape about it.

Sure, right now, I have around 20 BTC... although a couple years ago I had around 45 BTC... but that was when it was worth around USD 10-15 each... and my 20 BTC right now is worth around USD 500-600 each lately... and I just can't bring myself to feel bad about my wallet value going from USD 450-675 up to USD 10,000-12,000 now, and I still have BTC dividends and Pyra payouts, and my jalapeno is still getting the occasional p2pool share giving me a little bit of coin, which I keep holding onto... and I expect BTC value to still rise even more in the not-too-distant future.

I just can't feel bad about it, and I just don't get why some people keep acting like the sky is falling and that they've "lost" something. Things are going good from what I can see.

:shrugs and shakes his head:

=squeak=

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July 06, 2014, 12:10:08 PM
 #2734

Please: add some banners at login screen.

At least I could earn money a bit faster if I win 1 uBTC each time that I log in.

Raoul Duke
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July 06, 2014, 03:29:51 PM
 #2735

Please: add some banners at login screen.

At least I could earn money a bit faster if I win 1 uBTC each time that I log in.

So, you recommend advertising fraud to recover your investment? Really? lol

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July 06, 2014, 07:07:41 PM
 #2736

Please: add some banners at login screen.

At least I could earn money a bit faster if I win 1 uBTC each time that I log in.

So, you recommend advertising fraud to recover your investment? Really? lol
Not, I recommend to add some banners, like a Bitcoin faucet.

I could recover the money faster, since my investment was low.

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July 06, 2014, 07:37:02 PM
 #2737

Please: add some banners at login screen.

At least I could earn money a bit faster if I win 1 uBTC each time that I log in.

So, you recommend advertising fraud to recover your investment? Really? lol
Not, I recommend to add some banners, like a Bitcoin faucet.

I could recover the money faster, since my investment was low.

Ad-funded faucets are advertising fraud.

166XA8Kq3Dv4DVS6vnvzRotpmJovycWd7w
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July 07, 2014, 12:31:35 PM
 #2738

Ok, thanks for your opinion Sqeak, interesting perspective.

Hopefully we get some more opinions in here (and ones that aren't so hell bent on being holier than thou preachy dicks).

Agree with me on this or not, I don't care but I would like some more ideas from others on how we can get things moving in the right direction again.  



My Opinion:

1.  He should have stuck to the original T&C.  This is what everyone signed up to and everyone was aware of (at least those who bothered to read them).  If you couldn't be bothered to do your Due diligence, that's your bad luck.

2.  He hasn't done as described in 1, but has produced a bonus hashrate directed at oldest 10 accounts.  This is unfair and should be split evenly across all accounts.  I am happy for the T&C to change for NEW MEMBERS OR ACCOUNTS but not for existing ones.  Even this has not been done as I had some BTC in the queue and that is now under the new 'get the hashrate you buy' scheme and not the old scheme.  Good for those accounts but not good for existing members.

3.  Any talk of suspending accounts in profit until those not in profit have caught up is ludicrous.  Why should sensible, early investors be penalised to offset the losses of late adopters who invested at the wrong time or set up their accounts poorly.  That is penalising success and rewarding failure.  I do not say this because I stand to gain, but rather because it is common sense.

4.  Any solution similar to 3 above is simply robbing one group to pay another.  This is unfair.  Everyone should get what they signed up to at the time they signed up.  You cant tell Warren Buffet he has had enough money from the stock market, so his fund will be suspended until all those who lost money in any market crash get a chance to get their investment back!!  What is needed is a sustainable plan to generate more income.  The amount owed is not going to decrease, so if we ever want to see those coins back, we need to increase the income.

5.  Why have the referals not been fixed so people can advertise etc again?  This may assist with 3 and 4 above.

6.  The other alternative is for everyone to take a haircut.  Write down all outstanding investments!  This will be universally unpopular, but it will mean that people will get something back and should allow for further investment going forward.  I am not saying I support this, but its an option.  However, it would need to be a straight 20/50//80% across all accounts.  None of this talk of 'he earnt more than me so he should now lose more!!).

Just my thoughts!

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July 07, 2014, 04:18:44 PM
 #2739

Ok, thanks for your opinion Sqeak, interesting perspective.

Hopefully we get some more opinions in here (and ones that aren't so hell bent on being holier than thou preachy dicks).

Agree with me on this or not, I don't care but I would like some more ideas from others on how we can get things moving in the right direction again.  



My Opinion:

1.  He should have stuck to the original T&C.  This is what everyone signed up to and everyone was aware of (at least those who bothered to read them).  If you couldn't be bothered to do your Due diligence, that's your bad luck.

2.  He hasn't done as described in 1, but has produced a bonus hashrate directed at oldest 10 accounts.  This is unfair and should be split evenly across all accounts.  I am happy for the T&C to change for NEW MEMBERS OR ACCOUNTS but not for existing ones.  Even this has not been done as I had some BTC in the queue and that is now under the new 'get the hashrate you buy' scheme and not the old scheme.  Good for those accounts but not good for existing members.

3.  Any talk of suspending accounts in profit until those not in profit have caught up is ludicrous.  Why should sensible, early investors be penalised to offset the losses of late adopters who invested at the wrong time or set up their accounts poorly.  That is penalising success and rewarding failure.  I do not say this because I stand to gain, but rather because it is common sense.

4.  Any solution similar to 3 above is simply robbing one group to pay another.  This is unfair.  Everyone should get what they signed up to at the time they signed up.  You cant tell Warren Buffet he has had enough money from the stock market, so his fund will be suspended until all those who lost money in any market crash get a chance to get their investment back!!  What is needed is a sustainable plan to generate more income.  The amount owed is not going to decrease, so if we ever want to see those coins back, we need to increase the income.

5.  Why have the referals not been fixed so people can advertise etc again?  This may assist with 3 and 4 above.

6.  The other alternative is for everyone to take a haircut.  Write down all outstanding investments!  This will be universally unpopular, but it will mean that people will get something back and should allow for further investment going forward.  I am not saying I support this, but its an option.  However, it would need to be a straight 20/50//80% across all accounts.  None of this talk of 'he earnt more than me so he should now lose more!!).

Just my thoughts!

My opinion on points 1 and 2:

I can see the need for the change, although in my opinion there should have been an opt-in option.

In order to reconcile the goals of the pre-change structure with the new structure, I would say to assign all of the old accounts a blanket hash/BTC rate, based on the date of the switchover.  (Take the total hashrate at the time of the switch, the total active deposit amounts, and divide the hashrate by deposit amounts to make the base hash/BTC rate.) 

Then, after the switchover, any new deposits would be considered acceptance of the new TOS, and applied the new, current scheme of hash/BTC (currently at 256Ghash/BTC) to each deposit.

Finally, apply the surplus hashrate equally on a hash/BTC rate.  (By surplus I mean any new hashrate that hasn't been applied to a deposit yet, as well as any hashrate from old equipment that is "retired" from completed deposits, but the equipment is not yet decommissioned due to being less efficient than the exchange rate/difficulty allows.) This way, small but recent deposits don't get huge rewards (they're already being rewarded simply by being recent; there's no need to reward them for being small as well) which will allow old, large deposits to clear the system more quickly (which is the point of the "last 10" scheme currently in use) which will lead to clearing out even more "retired" hashrate for use by younger and smaller deposits.

And keep a tally of the "retired" hashrate.  As equipment gets decommissioned or fails, pull it out of the surplus pool so that nothing is being over-promised.  (On the same vein, there is no reason to undersell hashing, since it's actual earnings that are divided among investors, rather than true hashrates.  The hashrates are simply there to give a general guideline about what might be expected in a non-variable system.)

On points 3 and 4:  I agree completely.  Let's not lop off the top of the trees in some idiotic attempt to potentially benefit the bushes.  Socialism works by uplifting the base; it was communism that failed by attempting to limit the top.  If there's some ceiling to investments after which they get suspended, nobody will want to invest, and we won't get the benefits of new hardware. (I'll talk more in my rebuttal of point 6.)

On point 5: YES.  We can't have multi-level-marketing without referrals.

6:  I agree that it is universally unpopular.  I also don't believe that it will allow anyone to get anything back, because all of the capital is invested in hardware.  All dividends come directly from mining.  There is nearly no liquidity.

Rather, I propose that we stay the course, because to do anything else would lead to failure.  New investments must be encouraged, yet we can't allow old investments to hit a cap before they fully mature.

As it stands right now, any mining equipment bought today is expected to bring about 75% ROI based on BTC only.  This works in fiat because BTC is a deflationary commodity; investments in mining equipment will continue to earn a real profit using more stable currencies rather than commodities. 

Tangent: Individuals are foolish to buy mining equipment directly; rather the smart option is to buy BTC directly and let the market price rise.  For instance, buying 1 BFL 5.5Ghash Jalapeno at the start of their pre-order period (which turned out to be incredibly stupid due to their delays) would have netted a person about 1BTC.  If bought in fiat, that gives a profit of about $400.  However, if you'd have bought $200 worth of BTC at the time ($13/BTC), you'd be seeing about $9,500 in profit.

Back to the point: Pyramining guarantees 110% return on BTC deposits, regardless of fiat exchange rates, with the tradeoff being that a person needs to be patient; it could take years to see your investment mature.  (Keep in mind that brick-and-mortar companies and established e-tailers don't expect 100% ROI for at least a decade, so 5 years to 110% is AWESOME, besides the point that the value of BTC will also appreciate greatly in that time.)  Because the difficulty continues to climb at exponential rates, Pyra's pool needs a constant influx of new hardware, and will continue to need new hardware until difficulty growth levels out.

That is, every deposit made today will eventually have a hashrate that is (comparatively) so low that it would take decades to see the deposit mature.  In order to keep the account active so that an account's older deposits will complete within reasonable times, new deposits must be made to that account.  Eventually, when the difficulty settles down as the market finally gets saturated with the most efficient of ASICs, accounts won't need new deposits in order to keep a reasonable earning rate, but I'm predicting that it will be years before this happens.

This isn't the fault of Pyra; it's the nature of the 110% return on BTC deposits and the fact of the difficulty climbing.  Pyra is doing a good job of managing the current storm, and of encouraging new deposits so that the entire structure doesn't fail...  however I can see room for improvement.

First, rather than the oldest 10 bonus, I would argue for a blanket, BTC-based bonus on all deposits.  This will prevent the appearance of bias, and falls more in line with what the original investors signed up for.  Second, it must be very clear that old, large deposits will not be capped, stopped, halted, paused, held, nerfed, gimped, or otherwise penalized.  The whole point of Pyramining is to bring deposits to maturity.  If anything threatens even the most exceptional and rarest deposits, then it creates doubt in the minds of everyone about the safety of their own deposits, and people will not reinvest.

And a new point, #7:

Bring back statistics.  Yes, some statistics were depressing, especially as we were waiting for the new ASICs...  however, we could have a "your estimated maturity date could become yyyy-mm-dd if you deposit XXbtc" somewhere in the statistics, that would encourage new deposits and reinvesting.

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July 07, 2014, 07:39:30 PM
 #2740

I read all your considerations (flames apart) and I will take everything into account for the imminent upgrade.
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