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Author Topic: BitForce SC - full custom ASIC  (Read 49113 times)
SgtSpike
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May 30, 2012, 12:30:01 AM
 #161

Cablepair - BFL already stated that $5000 was far too high a price point for one, and potentially two of their SC products.  They also stated that they wanted to make the ASIC miners available to "the average person".

Again, BFL doing ANYTHING to reduce confidence in Bitcoin would be essentially biting the hand that feeds them.  It would make no financial sense.  Yes, they are in it for the money, but the money comes in as long as Bitcoin remains a project that people are confident about.  I do not see how it would be advantageous for BFL to abuse the network for their own gain with the potential to undermine the Bitcoin project.  They would be far better served (and have even confirmed as much) to simply produce the products that people want, and sell them to those people.

From what BFL is saying, they WANT to see Bitcoin succeed, they WANT to put these ASICs in the hands of the everyday person, and they do NOT want to mine with them.  You can put on your tinfoil hat and say that they are lying and it's all one big coverup to bring down Bitcoin to the ashes, but I believe that BFL is a company with good intentions and smart leadership, and will not work to destroy Bitcoin, only to make it stronger. 

The best way for BFL to make a large profit is to increase confidence (and therefore price) of Bitcoin.  All these conspiracy theories about wealthy people banding together to maliciously attack the network just make absolutely no sense, and are not founded in any sort of reality I can imagine.
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May 30, 2012, 12:42:44 AM
 #162

[...]

With all due respect, using the methodology of your thought one would likely come to the conclusion that you are planning to privately mine with ASICs and posted that message solely in order to inspire distrust and worry in BFL so as to slow purchasing of their units.

I am always one to advocate caution, but there's a line between beneficial caution and detrimental paranoia. Regardless of BFL's motives, ruin or devaluation of Bitcoin would be far from their financial best interests. And any good company never lets morals get in the way of bottom line. Wink

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May 30, 2012, 01:14:38 AM
 #163



I hope my prediction is wrong. I hope ASICs wont be used in a way where the Bitcoin devs have to take measures such as I described above, but it is certainly probable enough to where the community needs to identify it. I hope I dont have to come back in a year and say I told you so, only time will tell...

However... to anyone who believes this fallacy that BFL or any other corporate ASIC mining manufacturer is going to limit their sales in order to protect Bitcoin - you need to get over that.

Fallacy #2 ASICs will be cheap and plentiful for all to use and enjoy
yeah right!

The first Bitcoin mining ASICs that are mass produced (BFL singles ARE NOT ASIC they were Identified as XILINIX FPGA by ngzhang) are likely to be used and abused by its makers for massive mining profits, the first ASICs to be sold will be sold for thousands. The corporate entities that invest the money and time needed to create these chips are not going to just make them and give them away.

Fact #1 Right Now the only groups that can achieve access to Bitcoin mining ASICs are those with the money and connections to get them made

Fact #2 Last Summer difficulty and Bitcoin value SKYROCKETED purely on the backs of GPU mining - Can you IMAGINE what Bitcoin would be like now if only the Wealthy Had Access to GPU's in the Summer of 2011?

I built a 10 ghash mining farm (back when 10ghash was alot) little by little on the mining profits of one single 5870 purchased in the early spring of 2011. A lot of others in this community have gained similar or greater Bitcoin success because Bitcoin mining can empower even the most modest of Miners, this has changed a lot of the last year but its still realistic to some degree, a lot of you may think ASIC is your chance, everyone wants to be a (God I hate saying this) " Early adopter " right?



Like I said at the beginning of this rant ( Tongue ) I hope I am wrong, I really hope this horrible feeling about what I am hearing about certain people who are working on acquiring ASIC based Bitcoin mining is wrong, all I am asking anyone to do is keep your eyes and your mind open to whats really going on before you jump on the band wagon and support something for the wrong reasons.


I was one of the first people to be skeptical about BFL when they first came on the scene, and I admit I was wrong at that time about them, but this "FAQ" that encourages people to buy BFL Singles now and not worry about ASIC later because they will give you a full trade in value? Its just another piece of this puzzle that makes me entirely too uneasy...

From a business stand point that makes absolutely zero sense....

...just food for thought and motivation to prove me wrong...  Enjoy! Wink

Don't you have a business interest in selling FPGA boards? I'd imagine ASIC would ruin that.
Anyway, how would upgrading from GPU to ASIC be different than CPU was to GPU?

The only question will be availability of the chips. As a retailer, if I am not mistaken about that, you might ping Butterfly Labs about buyins their chips to make your own boards. I'm thinking they won't mind at some point.


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May 30, 2012, 02:34:05 AM
 #164



I hope my prediction is wrong. I hope ASICs wont be used in a way where the Bitcoin devs have to take measures such as I described above, but it is certainly probable enough to where the community needs to identify it. I hope I dont have to come back in a year and say I told you so, only time will tell...

However... to anyone who believes this fallacy that BFL or any other corporate ASIC mining manufacturer is going to limit their sales in order to protect Bitcoin - you need to get over that.

Fallacy #2 ASICs will be cheap and plentiful for all to use and enjoy
yeah right!

The first Bitcoin mining ASICs that are mass produced (BFL singles ARE NOT ASIC they were Identified as XILINIX FPGA by ngzhang) are likely to be used and abused by its makers for massive mining profits, the first ASICs to be sold will be sold for thousands. The corporate entities that invest the money and time needed to create these chips are not going to just make them and give them away.

Fact #1 Right Now the only groups that can achieve access to Bitcoin mining ASICs are those with the money and connections to get them made

Fact #2 Last Summer difficulty and Bitcoin value SKYROCKETED purely on the backs of GPU mining - Can you IMAGINE what Bitcoin would be like now if only the Wealthy Had Access to GPU's in the Summer of 2011?

I built a 10 ghash mining farm (back when 10ghash was alot) little by little on the mining profits of one single 5870 purchased in the early spring of 2011. A lot of others in this community have gained similar or greater Bitcoin success because Bitcoin mining can empower even the most modest of Miners, this has changed a lot of the last year but its still realistic to some degree, a lot of you may think ASIC is your chance, everyone wants to be a (God I hate saying this) " Early adopter " right?



Like I said at the beginning of this rant ( Tongue ) I hope I am wrong, I really hope this horrible feeling about what I am hearing about certain people who are working on acquiring ASIC based Bitcoin mining is wrong, all I am asking anyone to do is keep your eyes and your mind open to whats really going on before you jump on the band wagon and support something for the wrong reasons.


I was one of the first people to be skeptical about BFL when they first came on the scene, and I admit I was wrong at that time about them, but this "FAQ" that encourages people to buy BFL Singles now and not worry about ASIC later because they will give you a full trade in value? Its just another piece of this puzzle that makes me entirely too uneasy...

From a business stand point that makes absolutely zero sense....

...just food for thought and motivation to prove me wrong...  Enjoy! Wink

Don't you have a business interest in selling FPGA boards? I'd imagine ASIC would ruin that.
Anyway, how would upgrading from GPU to ASIC be different than CPU was to GPU?

The only question will be availability of the chips. As a retailer, if I am not mistaken about that, you might ping Butterfly Labs about buyins their chips to make your own boards. I'm thinking they won't mind at some point.




I already pointed out that BFL and other ASIC manufacturers are a potential competitor to what I am doing now, please read my second to last post and you will see it, this is not some sort of half-assed attempt to down play the competition. I can also point out to you that I own the domain name bitcoinasic.com and have just as much the resources and connections as any other player on this forum to develop and sell an ASIC based product.

The truth is I am weary of BFL and others that have already begun to design and test ASIC based miners, these others I am not going to call by name but if you look around you can find them.

I am not going to make any accusations here, but I propose a question to the community.

BFL has announced an upcoming ASIC based miner they have also stated that we as miners should continue to buy BFL singles because they will take them as full value for trade ins for their future ASIC based devices.

My question is this:

how can BFL do this? How can their business model allow for them to pay back full price for their flagship product which has made 99% of that revenues income.

How is that possible? How is it Not complete bullshit?

Please I want to see who can answer this, and what they will say Wink



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May 30, 2012, 02:37:24 AM
 #165

My best guess is because since the Singles are reprogrammable, they plan to use them all over again in some unrelated application. Even if the chips are kind of ancient, they are high performance.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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May 30, 2012, 02:42:52 AM
 #166

I already pointed out that BFL and other ASIC manufacturers are a potential competitor to what I am doing now, please read my second to last post and you will see it, this is not some sort of half-assed attempt to down play the competition. I can also point out to you that I own the domain name bitcoinasic.com and have just as much the resources and connections as any other player on this forum to develop and sell an ASIC based product.

The truth is I am weary of BFL and others that have already begun to design and test ASIC based miners, these others I am not going to call by name but if you look around you can find them.

I am not going to make any accusations here, but I propose a question to the community.

BFL has announced an upcoming ASIC based miner they have also stated that we as miners should continue to buy BFL singles because they will take them as full value for trade ins for their future ASIC based devices.

My question is this:

how can BFL do this? How can their business model allow for them to pay back full price for their flagship product which has made 99% of that revenues income.

How is that possible? How is it Not complete bullshit?

Please I want to see who can answer this, and what they will say Wink

This is not the case. They're offering trade-in credit, not actual money. Think of it as similar to the difference between a gift card and cash.

There are many ways in which this could be viable. As rjk pointed out, BFL could use the singles for another purpose. They could resell them on another market. They could resell them to Bitcoin miners at a discount. They could even just mine with them.

Also consider the upsides of this scheme. Single purchasers who won't be getting theirs for another month or two would otherwise be furious. Mini rig purchasers certainly would. Most importantly, this will drive ASIC sales. More likely than not BFL will have a high profit margin on the ASIC, enough that even with a trade-in of one or two Singles per ASIC the sale would still be profitable.

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May 30, 2012, 02:48:02 AM
 #167

I already pointed out that BFL and other ASIC manufacturers are a potential competitor to what I am doing now, please read my second to last post and you will see it, this is not some sort of half-assed attempt to down play the competition. I can also point out to you that I own the domain name bitcoinasic.com and have just as much the resources and connections as any other player on this forum to develop and sell an ASIC based product.

The truth is I am weary of BFL and others that have already begun to design and test ASIC based miners, these others I am not going to call by name but if you look around you can find them.

I am not going to make any accusations here, but I propose a question to the community.

BFL has announced an upcoming ASIC based miner they have also stated that we as miners should continue to buy BFL singles because they will take them as full value for trade ins for their future ASIC based devices.

My question is this:

how can BFL do this? How can their business model allow for them to pay back full price for their flagship product which has made 99% of that revenues income.

How is that possible? How is it Not complete bullshit?

Please I want to see who can answer this, and what they will say Wink

This is not the case. They're offering trade-in credit, not actual money. Think of it as similar to the difference between a gift card and cash.

There are many ways in which this could be viable. As rjk pointed out, BFL could use the singles for another purpose. They could resell them on another market. They could resell them to Bitcoin miners at a discount. They could even just mine with them.

Also consider the upsides of this scheme. Single purchasers who won't be getting theirs for another month or two would otherwise be furious. Mini rig purchasers certainly would. Most importantly, this will drive ASIC sales. More likely than not BFL will have a high profit margin on the ASIC, enough that even with a trade-in of one or two Singles per ASIC the sale would still be profitable.

They will probably be the first selling Bitcoin specific ASICs, which means their profit margin is whatever they want it to be, within reason, of course. They will easily regain lost revenue with this campaign.

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May 30, 2012, 04:12:05 AM
 #168

I already pointed out that BFL and other ASIC manufacturers are a potential competitor to what I am doing now, please read my second to last post and you will see it, this is not some sort of half-assed attempt to down play the competition. I can also point out to you that I own the domain name bitcoinasic.com and have just as much the resources and connections as any other player on this forum to develop and sell an ASIC based product.

The truth is I am weary of BFL and others that have already begun to design and test ASIC based miners, these others I am not going to call by name but if you look around you can find them.

I am not going to make any accusations here, but I propose a question to the community.

BFL has announced an upcoming ASIC based miner they have also stated that we as miners should continue to buy BFL singles because they will take them as full value for trade ins for their future ASIC based devices.

My question is this:

how can BFL do this? How can their business model allow for them to pay back full price for their flagship product which has made 99% of that revenues income.

How is that possible? How is it Not complete bullshit?

Please I want to see who can answer this, and what they will say Wink

This is not the case. They're offering trade-in credit, not actual money. Think of it as similar to the difference between a gift card and cash.

There are many ways in which this could be viable. As rjk pointed out, BFL could use the singles for another purpose. They could resell them on another market. They could resell them to Bitcoin miners at a discount. They could even just mine with them.

Also consider the upsides of this scheme. Single purchasers who won't be getting theirs for another month or two would otherwise be furious. Mini rig purchasers certainly would. Most importantly, this will drive ASIC sales. More likely than not BFL will have a high profit margin on the ASIC, enough that even with a trade-in of one or two Singles per ASIC the sale would still be profitable.

They will probably be the first selling Bitcoin specific ASICs, which means their profit margin is whatever they want it to be, within reason, of course. They will easily regain lost revenue with this campaign.

you explained it all with one vague sentance that means nothing and you used ITALICS!

You should go to the bank tomarrow, mortage your house and invest in BFL ASICs.


next...

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May 30, 2012, 04:17:19 AM
 #169

[...]
BFL has announced an upcoming ASIC based miner they have also stated that we as miners should continue to buy BFL singles because they will take them as full value for trade ins for their future ASIC based devices.

My question is this:

how can BFL do this? How can their business model allow for them to pay back full price for their flagship product which has made 99% of that revenues income.

How is that possible? How is it Not complete bullshit?

Please I want to see who can answer this, and what they will say Wink

Easy enough I think. They are not refunding you money, but giving you credit towards purchasing their newer models. They will have a much higher profit margin on the ASIC systems. And it is good business to keep past customers by not pissing them off right after selling them products so soon outdated. And the chips in the sinles and mini systems are high end chips that can be sold or used.
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May 30, 2012, 04:20:03 AM
 #170

you explained it all with one vague sentance that means nothing and you used ITALICS!

You should go to the bank tomarrow, mortage your house and invest in BFL ASICs.

If I had a house I wouldn't do that, reverse mortgages are, bluntly, idiotic, unless you absolutely need the money. I sincerely hope you're using unhumourous sarcasm.

I was simply stating that their ASIC line will be successful, partly because of my plans for utilizing it Wink

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May 30, 2012, 04:24:58 AM
 #171

btw:

yes I am messing with you (it is late for me been working since 6am)but I just have to point out that your explanation also supports the abuse of the Bitcoin network by ASICs

that is the primary lesson I am trying to express here that I want anyone and everyone who reads this thread to take away with them.


At the point we are with Bitcoin, with the emergence of ASIC based Bitcoin miners there is a HUGE opportunity available for those who are able and willing to ABUSE the Bitcoin network, and reap incredible profits doing so.

This is a warning from one friend to another and if you take nothing else from my post tonight take this:

We need a true "OpenASIC" type solution in order for ASIC based miners to be a healthy addition to the network and BFL is not the company to offer it.

They are a for-profit Business and to expect them to be anything but that is insanity.



If you really want to see ASIC be a part of the future of the Bitcoin network go invest in that solution, dont buy miners from any for-profit outfit such as BFL - because something like OpenASIC is really the only chance for this to work and be truly beneficial to the Bitcoin network and anyone who does not understand that does not understand the power and (ill use italics this time) the THREAT that ASIC based miners have the potential to pose.

You guys are the best, have a great night .

Smiley

-Tom


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May 30, 2012, 04:26:51 AM
 #172

you explained it all with one vague sentance that means nothing and you used ITALICS!

You should go to the bank tomarrow, mortage your house and invest in BFL ASICs.

If I had a house I wouldn't do that, reverse mortgages are, bluntly, idiotic, unless you absolutely need the money. I sincerely hope you're using unhumourous sarcasm.

I was simply stating that their ASIC line will be successful, partly because of my plans for utilizing it Wink

Mortgaging or remortgaging your house is a very different thing than a reverse mortgage.
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May 30, 2012, 04:30:02 AM
 #173

you explained it all with one vague sentance that means nothing and you used ITALICS!

You should go to the bank tomarrow, mortage your house and invest in BFL ASICs.

If I had a house I wouldn't do that, reverse mortgages are, bluntly, idiotic, unless you absolutely need the money. I sincerely hope you're using unhumourous sarcasm.

I was simply stating that their ASIC line will be successful, partly because of my plans for utilizing it Wink

Mortgaging or remortgaging your house is a very different thing than a reverse mortgage.

Ahh, maybe I should spend more than two seconds reading things like that Tongue

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May 30, 2012, 04:35:44 AM
 #174

...because of my plans for utilizing it Wink

I hope you didn't misinterpret that as me planning to work (italics incoming) against the network. I'm going to throw all the hashes I get a hold of towards the good of the network, always.

Just another reason not to mine at Deeppit. Nothing against deepbit's owner, but I personally think the top three pools should be split up, through whatever means. They simply have too much possible influence on the development of Bitcoin.

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May 30, 2012, 04:36:02 AM
 #175

my concern is if you could deliver your products from inside EU (Europe).

I have said this MULTIPLE times.

It is the only thing preventing me emptying out my bank account with BFL products Kiss

For 5% and shipping, I'd be happy to forward them to you guys.

was thinkin the same thing...
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May 30, 2012, 04:36:57 AM
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you explained it all with one vague sentance that means nothing and you used ITALICS!

And you used all caps, italics give the same emphasis while being much less garish.

At the point we are with Bitcoin, with the emergence of ASIC based Bitcoin miners there is a HUGE opportunity available for those who are able and willing to ABUSE the Bitcoin network, and reap incredible profits doing so.

And that is why this is absolutely essential! The software may be closed, but the hardware will be released to the public, which is the far more important part. This, while not as good for the network is OpenASIC, is much better than the potential alternative - someone privately manufacturing ASICs and controlling a larger-than-healthy percentage of the network. That I certainly would rather avoid.

We need a true "OpenASIC" type solution in order for ASIC based miners to be a healthy addition to the network and BFL is not the company to offer it.

They are a for-profit Business and to expect them to be anything but that is insanity.

Business != Evil, Good for Business != Bad for Bitcoin, and For-Profit != Bad. Businesses supported by Bitcoin are extremely unlikely to kill it.

If you really want to see ASIC be a part of the future of the Bitcoin network go invest in that solution, dont buy miners from any for-profit outfit such as BFL - because something like OpenASIC is really the only chance for this to work and be truly beneficial to the Bitcoin network and anyone who does not understand that does not understand the power and (ill use italics this time) the THREAT that ASIC based miners have the potential to pose.

I fully support OpenASIC, but that doesn't mean BFL/for-profit outfits is/are evil and will take over the network, world, etcetera.

More importantly, and I cannot emphasize this enough, this is far better than the alternative of someone creating a private ASIC Bitcoin-doomsday machine.

You guys are the best, have a great night .

Smiley

You too! Enjoy sleeping while we take over the network with ASICs! Wink

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May 30, 2012, 04:37:40 AM
 #177

...because of my plans for utilizing it Wink

I hope you didn't misinterpret that as me planning to work (italics incoming) against the network. I'm going to throw all the hashes I get a hold of towards the good of the network, always.

Just another reason not to mine at Deeppit. Nothing against deepbit's owner, but I personally think the top three pools should be split up, through whatever means. They simply have too much possible influence on the development of Bitcoin.

I don't think you meant what that sounded like, you might want to change it.

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May 30, 2012, 04:39:55 AM
 #178

my concern is if you could deliver your products from inside EU (Europe).

I have said this MULTIPLE times.

It is the only thing preventing me emptying out my bank account with BFL products Kiss

For 5% and shipping, I'd be happy to forward them to you guys.

was thinkin the same thing...

Dibs!

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May 30, 2012, 04:40:32 AM
 #179

Anybody know the estimated shipping date?  Wink

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May 30, 2012, 04:44:19 AM
 #180

Anybody know the estimated shipping date?  Wink

The published or the actual? Far different things, at least if BFL's record holds true.

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