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Author Topic: BitForce SC - full custom ASIC  (Read 49037 times)
BTC-engineer
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May 27, 2012, 10:05:25 PM
 #1

BFL is announcing full custom ASIC chips.  Shocked
http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/



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May 27, 2012, 10:29:59 PM
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Quote from: FAQ on 5/27/12
1. What is the BitForce SC?
The BitForce SC processor is the result of our long term development of a multipurpose SHA256 hashing engine in full custom ASIC.  The BitForce SC achieves an exponential increase in verification performance and power draw efficiency by using the latest semiconductor manufacture technology.

Why ASIC?   ASIC is the final word in processor design.  There is no next step threatening to change everything.  This makes it the first stable ground for hardware investment as compared to prior stages which experienced unpredictable and violent change as technology moved up the ladder from CPU to GPU, then FPGA and sASIC / Hardcopy.

Pure custom ASIC is the end of the line. With ASIC comes not only a phenomenal performance increase, but also a stability in the rate of performance increase.  Yes, improvements in ASIC will continue to occur, but only at the stable & predictable rate as followed by the rest of the semiconductor industry and not sudden exponential growth like the jump into ASIC itself.  The volatile risk of hardware investment is now behind us and for the first time, high speed hash verification performance can be had in a convenient USB stick or clustered in a compact, yet face meltingly fast rack mount system without the traditional burden of power, heat or space constraints.

2. Hey, what the heck? Why’d you come out with this after I just bought a bunch of Singles? I’m not even to payoff and now I’m going to be left behind!
We hear you loud and clear and we promise to stand by our customers through this technology change with an all inclusive trade in policy designed to protect the dollar value of your existing hardware.

Upon release of BitForce SC based Singles & Mini Rigs, all previous generation BitForce products will enjoy a full 100% trade in value when used towards the purchase of the newer generation replacements.  This means your current device is protected from depreciation through this evolution in technology.  This buy back offer is good for all previous generation BitForce units whether purchased directly from us or from a third party.  Full terms of our obsolescence guarantee will be forthcoming.

Having said this, it’s also important to point out that current generation products enjoy strong relative hashing power today and that will continue to make them profitable up to and through the the point of ASIC market penetration when they can be traded in.

3. Why should I buy a Mini Rig or Single if the BitForce SC is coming out?
It depends on the lead time difference between your product and the availability of the BitForce SC.  As long as there is a sufficient gap in between the delivery of the two then it makes sense to enjoy the strong performance of current gen products before network difficulty increases as a result of ASIC market penetration.  At that time, the your units can be traded in towards an upgrade to equivalent BitForce SC based replacements.

4. When will the BitForce SC be available, and how fast are they?
Our full revealing announcement will come in June, just after initial shipments of the Mini Rig.  However, for a basic summary, rollout is probably sooner than you might imagine and performance is really really fast.

The upgrade/trade-in offer is awesome.  Exciting news indeed!

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May 27, 2012, 10:33:35 PM
 #3

Great news. I will take 10!

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May 27, 2012, 10:34:10 PM
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Depending on size and cost of unit per mh I may actually have a reason to import a couple Smiley

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May 27, 2012, 11:22:27 PM
 #5

Quote
End game performance
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May 27, 2012, 11:31:29 PM
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Very interesting. It will be interesting to see what the performance numbers and timeline are in June, and what they end up being once customers get them in hand.
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May 27, 2012, 11:52:06 PM
 #7

BFL is announcing full custom ASIC chips.  Shocked
http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/

We're scared Grin full custom ASIC is great!!!!! You would invest probably more than whole BTC worth then if you would go with say 45-nm!!!! You are serious player  Grin I think this is the time, when security of SHA256 for block-chain generation should be .... IMPROVED   Grin But let's go step by step  Grin First deliver mini-rigs with nice performance and cost, then ASIC, then do buy-in, and then everything would be secure, under NDA of course Grin Or Huh? Will you start again taking money for future product with "variable" performance ?   Roll Eyes
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May 28, 2012, 12:03:08 AM
 #8

As long as I can trade in my singles against asic singles everything is ok Tongue

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May 28, 2012, 12:08:26 AM
 #9

Buy in sound doggy ?

I assume you are not trading in the cost, but rather performance ? So you send them the MINI-RIG based on 17 modules, and they send you a single chip ASIC that has similar performance ?
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May 28, 2012, 01:00:35 AM
 #10

BFL is announcing full custom ASIC chips.  Shocked
http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/

We're scared Grin full custom ASIC is great!!!!! You would invest probably more than whole BTC worth then if you would go with say 45-nm!!!! You are serious player  Grin I think this is the time, when security of SHA256 for block-chain generation should be .... IMPROVED  Grin But let's go step by step  Grin First deliver mini-rigs with nice performance and cost, then ASIC, then do buy-in, and then everything would be secure, under NDA of course Grin Or Huh? Will you start again taking money for future product with "variable" performance ?   Roll Eyes

Let me first say that I deeply respect the work you've done.  I really mean that.  It's spectacular and we're deeply impressed.  So believe me when I say that we take no pleasure in undermining your plans.  

As you know, you've only announced yourself within the last week or so while we've been working on our full product range in public view for 10 months.  The SC product plan and it's timing has been illustrated on our product lineup page that full time.  

We started out under attack from similar comments like yours above...   it's deja vu.  I think your first post was met with similar sarcasm.  That's just how it is.  You've got to take your lumps in the public forum.  Even the good Ngzhang once publicly accused us of being a scam product.  In sum, we've seen all this before and we're past it.  We've since shipped a quantity of product into the field that would surprise most people.  So if you want to cast doubt, go right ahead.  Honestly, we expect nothing less.  

I would hope that at some point the hostility becomes unnecessary.

Best regards,
BFL

Butterfly Labs  -  www.butterflylabs.com  -  Bitcoin Mining Hardware
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May 28, 2012, 01:04:39 AM
 #11

BFL is announcing full custom ASIC chips.  Shocked
http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/

Very interesting news.

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May 28, 2012, 01:06:31 AM
 #12


I would hope that at some point the hostility becomes unnecessary.

Best regards,
BFL

As do I.

Great news though!

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May 28, 2012, 01:09:34 AM
 #13

I hate NDAs but....

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May 28, 2012, 01:19:56 AM
 #14

It looks to me that BFL does the reverse-Apple strategy:

First announce a revolutionary product, and then try to achieve it - somehow. I guess the benefit is that this discourages the competition a little bit. But in the long run this is a liability for reputation.

Any plans for the post-asic era? Smiley

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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May 28, 2012, 01:32:01 AM
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I hate NDAs but....
Nice try
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May 28, 2012, 01:35:51 AM
 #16

What is the post ASIC era, anyway?  I have been trying to figure that out.  Quantum Computing?

Bitforce QC - Infinite Hashes, Power draw from Quantum Foam.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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May 28, 2012, 01:41:52 AM
 #17

Buy in sound doggy ?

I assume you are not trading in the cost, but rather performance ? So you send them the MINI-RIG based on 17 modules, and they send you a single chip ASIC that has similar performance ?

Ice, the trade in upgrades are dollar for dollar not hash for hash.  The objective is to ensure our customers suffer no hardware depreciation as a result of our new product release.  Hash for Hash wouldn't achieve that goal unless it was Hash for Hash in a then and now relative basis...  which we seriously considered as an alternate method.  In the end, dollar for dollar is the simplest way to achieve the goal.

Butterfly Labs  -  www.butterflylabs.com  -  Bitcoin Mining Hardware
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May 28, 2012, 01:47:00 AM
 #18

BFL is announcing full custom ASIC chips.  Shocked
http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/

We're scared Grin full custom ASIC is great!!!!! You would invest probably more than whole BTC worth then if you would go with say 45-nm!!!! You are serious player  Grin I think this is the time, when security of SHA256 for block-chain generation should be .... IMPROVED  Grin But let's go step by step  Grin First deliver mini-rigs with nice performance and cost, then ASIC, then do buy-in, and then everything would be secure, under NDA of course Grin Or Huh? Will you start again taking money for future product with "variable" performance ?   Roll Eyes

Let me first say that I deeply respect the work you've done.  I really mean that.  It's spectacular and we're deeply impressed.  So believe me when I say that we take no pleasure in undermining your plans.  

You have not undermined them, as mining only small part of plan and reason is to get secure p2p currency. I assume you agree that mining is CORE security of BitCoin and BitCoin-like networks. Also mining-related business is nice way to make public contact and show that you actually have something. Possibly you could even help us, if you get this ASIC right way, it depends on you however, but your business conduct shows to me that you are more in rush for money, and pretty scared to be behind marketing-wise, that's why you put that pre-order stuff all the way etc. That's correct choice generally, but if your claims are well-backed and you really worked hard to met what you put in your ads... When not met, like your first tryout with BFL single - it damages reputation then, so many people would think that you'll do ponzi games with this buy-in offer... However ponzi schemes are even more profitable than bitcoins Smiley)) MMM-2011 proves that - about 30 billions in one year .... Smiley)))

It depends on how you will do then with that ASIC. Because what you'll end up - invested a lot of money into tech and getting chips at low cost, but you still has to return your NRE costs, and still you could benefit 51% attack for you and/or your private investors under NDA, while selling to public buyers with NRE costs included. As hashing power is basically untraceable it would be very hard to know actually what happens and that impose a security risk.

Currently it is just $5 Mio to make 51% + risks that I can buy hash power say paying 200% PPS directly for attack. Then it will be $XX Mio to make 51% + risk of massive hash power buy + your company having ASIC NDA that can make chip for pennies, but still has return NRE costs and selling it at "market" price par-to-par with FPGA prices that board vendors could get :-) But for being safe, truly - either algorithm should be changed, but not the way like Scrypt, OR ASIC should be widely available and with current way fabs work we smash into the WALL :-)

Ahh. I forgot also about another security risk - http://www.dwavesys.com/en/dw_homepage.html ... Commercial, not military indeed :-) But this CAN BE MITIGATED :-) Although different crypto-system should be deployed.... With FPGAs - we can reprogram them, while with ASICs... hmmm...

Then what ? We need p2p currency for a project that abandoned but still actual long time ago.... This is the thing that Satoshi invented but we couldn't... We were not that smart, skillful and lucky... Bad that there's no contact with him... But maybe, when real wars with Goliath begins he reappear, there's not much skillful people :-)

What we do then in need of p2p currency but high security risks, how you think ? ;-)

As you know, you've only announced yourself within the last week or so while we've been working on our full product range in public view for 10 months.  The SC product plan and it's timing has been illustrated on our product lineup page that full time.  

Yes, but you have put 20 W / 1 Gh/s unit when started taking pre-orders and then it was 80 W / 800 Mh/s unit. That's significant difference. That's not we did... We haven't took a penny from anyone here :-)

Same could happen with buy-back offer.... And with long-term usage of your devices etc...

We started out under attack from similar comments like yours above...   we've seen it all before.  I think your first post was met with similar sarcasm.  That's just how it is.  You've got to take your lumps in the public forum.  Even the good Ngzhang once publicly accused us of being a scam product.  In sum, we've seen all this before and we're past it.  We've since shipped a quantity of product into the field that would surprise most people.  So if you want to cast doubt, go right ahead.  Honestly, we expect nothing less.

Well. It is just about claim - not structured asic, but full custom asic, etc etc :-)

I would hope that at some point the hostility becomes unnecessary.

That hostility is the result of your business behavior. Already mentioned several times in this message.

Why would we start own device and not just contact you and ask for one of yours ? We've thought first, but
when looked on small-sized item with 20W without cooling and PREORDER button we thought that it's pure SCAM
and one who drawn that didn't know that it would be extremely hot... Why would we expect anything DIFFERENT then ?

Now we're inside and probe exactly how things are with mining, etc... As it is difficult to analyze true security of network other way and give correct predictions.

Best regards,
BFL

Kind regards,
BitFury Group
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May 28, 2012, 01:49:07 AM
 #19

I'd say it can do 10Gh/s with 10w of power. Cheesy

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May 28, 2012, 01:51:44 AM
 #20

Whatever the means other than ASIC: finding a block must be done within a time-frame of 10 minutes. Otherwise the data is dead on arrival. This currently rules out a few computational approaches which require a long preparation time (staging the data).


The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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