[ANN] FACTOM - Introducing Honesty to Record-Keeping

[FACTOM]

We are thrilled to announce our Release Candidate 2.

Read more about it on our blog:
http://blog.factom.org/post/127157572974/technical-update-release-candidate-2

[djohnston]

Can you provide the BTC tx ids of the "early" private investments which will be receiving 20% of the premine?

Could you also go into more detail about this "early" investor stuff. What is it and why was it done? Why was this "early" investment phase private and not open to the public?

Thanks for the questions.

In order to respect the privacy of the early Factoid purchasers the Foundation will not be releasing individual transaction ids for participants, as we didn't ask for or seek their permission to release transaction details.

For those interested in checking / auditing the proportion analysis of the holders of Factoids you are welcome to check the public Genesis block when it is released as part of the Factom Genesis version of the live Beta. The Genesis block will show the amounts of Factoids owned by all participant addresses that took part in the early sale (20%), main sale (50%), and the early contributors (30%).

I'm happy to talk about the reason for the early sale of Factoids. It was done in order to provide support for the core developers of the Factom Client from the period beginning in mid 2014 through April of 2015. There have been more than 5 full time core developers working on the Factom Client during that period and getting paid to do so was the only way they could afford to focus all their efforts during that time in order to create the Factom Alpha and now the Factom Beta.

The early purchase period of Factoids was not private or invite only, anyone that approached the Factom Foundation about supporting our efforts was informed about the early purchase opportunity. Similar to the early contributor pool the Foundation was very public about welcoming any community members to help write and review Factom code, spread the word about Factom or otherwise contribute to the project and all their efforts were recorded and included in the Factoid pool for early contributors. More than 70 members of the Factom community took part in being community leaders, code reviewers, advisors, or making other contributions. This whole process has been done openly with repeated calls to the community for support.

Its important to note, the participants of the Factoid early sale didn't get any preferential treatment compared to the price paid by the main sale participants. A similar amount of support was collected during the early sale as was collected during the main sale, but split among a 20% pool instead of a 50% pool. In the end Factom Foundation can't make any predictions about the future price of Factoids, we only know that the protocol connects the utility of the Factom Network to the use of the Factoid tokens via the use of entry credits. The consensus paper is worth checking out on that topic. https://github.com/FactomProject/FactomDocs/blob/master/FactomLedgerbyConsensus.pdf

I hope that information is helpful : )

[fartbags]

Can you provide the BTC tx ids of the "early" private investments which will be receiving 20% of the premine?

Could you also go into more detail about this "early" investor stuff. What is it and why was it done? Why was this "early" investment phase private and not open to the public?

Thanks for the questions.

In order to respect the privacy of the early Factoid purchasers the Foundation will not be releasing individual transaction ids for participants, as we didn't ask for or seek their permission to release transaction details.

For those interested in checking / auditing the proportion analysis of the holders of Factoids you are welcome to check the public Genesis block when it is released as part of the Factom Genesis version of the live Beta. The Genesis block will show the amounts of Factoids owned by all participant addresses that took part in the early sale (20%), main sale (50%), and the early contributors (30%).

I'm happy to talk about the reason for the early sale of Factoids. It was done in order to provide support for the core developers of the Factom Client from the period beginning in mid 2014 through April of 2015. There have been more than 5 full time core developers working on the Factom Client during that period and getting paid to do so was the only way they could afford to focus all their efforts during that time in order to create the Factom Alpha and now the Factom Beta.

The early purchase period of Factoids was not private or invite only, anyone that approached the Factom Foundation about supporting our efforts was informed about the early purchase opportunity. Similar to the early contributor pool the Foundation was very public about welcoming any community members to help write and review Factom code, spread the word about Factom or otherwise contribute to the project and all their efforts were recorded and included in the Factoid pool for early contributors. More than 70 members of the Factom community took part in being community leaders, code reviewers, advisors, or making other contributions. This whole process has been done openly with repeated calls to the community for support.

Its important to note, the participants of the Factoid early sale didn't get any preferential treatment compared to the price paid by the main sale participants. A similar amount of support was collected during the early sale as was collected during the main sale, but split among a 20% pool instead of a 50% pool. In the end Factom Foundation can't make any predictions about the future price of Factoids, we only know that the protocol connects the utility of the Factom Network to the use of the Factoid tokens via the use of entry credits. The consensus paper is worth checking out on that topic. https://github.com/FactomProject/FactomDocs/blob/master/FactomLedgerbyConsensus.pdf

I hope that information is helpful : )

My main concern is with future discussion about the "early sale (20%)".

How do we know any funds were actually raised? Since you say factom will provide no proof of presale funds raised, this will forever be a possible developer 20% hidden premine scam.


I believe there was funds raised but without proof of these raised funds, there will always be this negative theory that you are scammers. Maybe you faked a presale. Maybe you plan to give away some of the early sale (20%) factoids for precrowdsale marketing.


You should show the same transparency with presale as you will with crowdsale. It would be the "Honest Record-Keeping" thing to do.

[NextGenCrypto]

My main concern is with future discussion about the "early sale (20%)".

How do we know any funds were actually raised? Since you say factom will provide no proof of presale funds raised, this will forever be a possible developer 20% hidden premine scam.


I believe there was funds raised but without proof of these raised funds, there will always be this negative theory that you are scammers. Maybe you faked a presale. Maybe you plan to give away some of the early sale (20%) factoids for precrowdsale marketing.


You should show the same transparency with presale as you will with crowdsale. It would be the "Honest Record-Keeping" thing to do.

Amen, fartbags!!!!  We've seen this MO far too many times around here and the lack of transparency will come back to haunt you, many of us will ensure that. 

Do the right thing.

[FACTOM]

Dear fartbags and NextGenCrypto your assumptions are your assumptions, lets consider them for what they are.
When we hosted our token sale it was clearly stated that 20% of the Factoids were reserved for early investors, that is no secret, everyone before purchasing Factoids was able to find that information.
As David mentioned we cannot disclose the names of the people who participated in the early sale, is that what are you looking for, the names of the people?

Their funds helped Factom develop its software since 2014, without them we wouldn't have been able to be where we are now.

David also mentioned: The Genesis block will show the amounts of Factoids owned by all participant addresses that took part in the early sale (20%), main sale (50%), and the early contributors (30%).

That is where you'll be able to see where all the Factoids are.

[mishax1]

Hey, fartbags and NextGenCrypto , I wonder what you have to say about Augurs' current sale with their 20% cut for the "Early Angels & Founding Team and Forecast Foundation"..

Take a sit and watch the magic happen.

[NextGenCrypto]

Hey, fartbags and NextGenCrypto , I wonder what you have to say about Augurs' current sale with their 20% cut for the "Early Angels & Founding Team and Forecast Foundation"..

Take a sit and watch the magic happen.

Over-hyped nonsense that will likely result in very little use/adoption. 

[fartbags]

Hey, fartbags and NextGenCrypto , I wonder what you have to say about Augurs' current sale with their 20% cut for the "Early Angels & Founding Team and Forecast Foundation"..

Take a sit and watch the magic happen.

Over-hyped nonsense that will likely result in very little use/adoption.  

Augur = Over hyped - quality project - no users - wait until listed on an exchange to buy in.

[fartbags]

I have gone into more details about this type of scam a.k.a. The Bubble Scam here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1158161.0


Factom could remedy the situation if their token isn't live yet. They could just combine the pre-crowdsale and crowdsale funds into 1 pool. Then issue the tokens as if it was 1 big legit public crowdsale. This would turn Factom into a 1COSX and a great project.

The smart and prudent early investors probably signed contracts to ensure their ability to profits from the 1COP2COS bubble.

[fartbags]

Dear fartbags and NextGenCrypto your assumptions are your assumptions, lets consider them for what they are.
When we hosted our token sale it was clearly stated that 20% of the Factoids were reserved for early investors, that is no secret, everyone before purchasing Factoids was able to find that information.
As David mentioned we cannot disclose the names of the people who participated in the early sale, is that what are you looking for, the names of the people?

Their funds helped Factom develop its software since 2014, without them we wouldn't have been able to be where we are now.

David also mentioned: The Genesis block will show the amounts of Factoids owned by all participant addresses that took part in the early sale (20%), main sale (50%), and the early contributors (30%).

That is where you'll be able to see where all the Factoids are.

The personal names are irrelevant to me. Nothing you did was illegal, it was just sneaky. The worst thing you did was create a bubble as the early investors pump up the price with public buyers.

You can read more about this scam here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1158161.0


The Factom crowd sale was a 1COP2COS (1st coin offering private limited, 2nd coin offering public sell).

Since Factom was one of the first to perform this 1COP2COS scam I will give you guys a break. The effects of this model were not tested yet. But from now on out I will be calling out all crowdsales if they try to perfom a 1COP2COS




An important thing to note about this scam is they rely on the argument that the early funds were required. This argument does not justify a private limited coin offering. Initial funds should be raised through the public. This would give the same private investors the ability to invest into the project.

If these same private investors are not willing to invest with the public then it proves this is an over valued bubble that no one should be investing in.



If the smart investors who know about this technology aren't willing to invest with the public then you should take their advice and not invest with the public either. Don't end up a bag holder wishing on shooting stars while the early investors are cashed out with lots of profits and moving on to the next project.

[The Bitcoin Co-op]

I think you're being too liberal with your use of the word "scam." "Scam" is supposed to mean outright theft via deception--the victim always loses in a scam, 100% of the time. In this case, it's possible for the main crowdsale buyers to win if the price of Factoids goes up. A scam is like when you sell someone shit that isn't what you said it was, or tell them to cash a check for you and send you the money via Western Union.

It's probably true that the early buyers got a better deal (although I've not bought Factoids ever, so I can't verify), but they also took more risk. The system was not working at all, back then. It could have turned out to be a broken idea. Someone had to put forth the development funds to take it out of the realm of vaporware.

[fartbags]

I think you're being too liberal with your use of the word "scam." "Scam" is supposed to mean outright theft via deception--the victim always loses in a scam, 100% of the time. In this case, it's possible for the main crowdsale buyers to win if the price of Factoids goes up. A scam is like when you sell someone shit that isn't what you said it was, or tell them to cash a check for you and send you the money via Western Union.

It's probably true that the early buyers got a better deal (although I've not bought Factoids ever, so I can't verify), but they also took more risk. The system was not working at all, back then. It could have turned out to be a broken idea. Someone had to put forth the development funds to take it out of the realm of vaporware.

The public could have put forth the funds. The Private investors have the choice to be public investors. This would have made Factom a 1COS2COSX. A better coin than it is now.

Due to the Bubble that the 1COP2COS model creates, the early investors definitely took way less risk. The early investors are smart. There is a reason they want to get in early at a cheaper valuation.



To minimize the bubble I will also be calling out Factom to have what Andreas Antonopoulos calls real time audit tracking. All funds raised from the crowdsale and pre-crowdsale should be tracked and available to the public in real time links to transactions on the blockchain. This will ensure there was no "self buy" scam to create an even bigger bubble. The public wants to know that Factom didn't buy there own Factom or give any away for free.

[NextGenCrypto]

I think you're being too liberal with your use of the word "scam." "Scam" is supposed to mean outright theft via deception--the victim always loses in a scam, 100% of the time. In this case, it's possible for the main crowdsale buyers to win if the price of Factoids goes up. A scam is like when you sell someone shit that isn't what you said it was, or tell them to cash a check for you and send you the money via Western Union.

It's probably true that the early buyers got a better deal (although I've not bought Factoids ever, so I can't verify), but they also took more risk. The system was not working at all, back then. It could have turned out to be a broken idea. Someone had to put forth the development funds to take it out of the realm of vaporware.

The public could have put forth the funds. The Private investors have the choice to be public investors. This would have made Factom a 1COS2COSX. A better coin than it is now.

Due to the Bubble that the 1COP2COS model creates, the early investors definitely took way less risk. The early investors are smart. There is a reason they want to get in early at a cheaper valuation.



To minimize the bubble I will also be calling out Factom to have what Andreas Antonopoulos calls real time audit tracking. All funds raised from the crowdsale and pre-crowdsale should be tracked and available to the public in real time links to transactions on the blockchain. This will ensure there was no "self buy" scam to create an even bigger bubble. The public wants to know that Factom didn't buy there own Factom or give any away for free.

I like you.  Thank you for saving me the time of having to type this.

[fartbags]

I was deceived by Factoms marketing and NEWS stories. It wasn't until I did research that I realized there was a pre-sale prior to the crowd sale.

[The Bitcoin Co-op]

But I thought Factoids weren't live yet, actually. I'm getting some as an Early Contributor, and I didn't get any, yet. The Factoids we're all getting don't come from the wallets of the early buyers--all Factoids are going to be initially assigned in the genesis block. When you buy Factoids, your bitcoins go to Koinify, which holds them until development milestones are achieved. Your bitcoins don't go to the early buyers.

[fartbags]

But I thought Factoids weren't live yet, actually. I'm getting some as an Early Contributor, and I didn't get any, yet. The Factoids we're all getting don't come from the wallets of the early buyers--all Factoids are going to be initially assigned in the genesis block. When you buy Factoids, your bitcoins go to Koinify, which holds them until development milestones are achieved. Your bitcoins don't go to the early buyers.

It would create less of a bubble if the early contributor rewards and early pre-sale investors were assigned a BTC or USD value. They could then by combined into the crowd sale and given out at the same rate as everyone else. This way anyone wanting to sell would be selling at a loss. There would not be sellers wanting out.

I see this Koinify website also ran GEMZ which was one of the biggest flops around. GEMZ crowd sale purchasers are down ~40% and have been bag holding for the last 6 months.

Because there are cheaper factoids than crowd sale price available, I can only imagine Factom will be similar to GEMZ. Down and bag holding until that miracle happens.




The term "crowd sale" is what deceived me. I thought that meant 100% of all premined/genesis coins where available to purchase through the crowd sale. Next time I will do more research when someone says "crowd sale".

Koinify should some responsibility too. In NEWS articles it should say crowd sale for __% of coins.




When I bought Factom I honestly thought I was buying into a sale that all coins were being created from.

[fartbags]

This early contributor reward is pretty horrible at creating a bubble and might be even worse than early investors. Since none of this is public, I would have to call this a scam.

In the spirit of "Honesty to Record-Keeping", records should be kept public on all early contributions and any raised funds. The early contributors should feel bad. Crowd sale buyers work hard for their money that they invest into Factom. Their money takes time to earn just like the early contributors contributions take time. Crowd sale funds, if done properly, could have been used to accomplish early contributor tasks.

The distinction between "early contributions", "pre-crowd sale buyers" and "crowd sale buyers" is what creates the bubble. In the case of Factom there are early contributors and pre-buyers pumping the bubble full of crowd sale buyers.

[The Bitcoin Co-op]

I don't understand how assigning our earnings in BTC or USD instead of Factoids would make selling more costly for us. Seeing as how the price of Factoids was pegged (via the crowdsale) at the time of assignment, it seems equivalent, to me. Once their value becomes variable and determined by the free market, an Early Contributor's Factoids go up and down in value just the same as someone who bought them in the crowdsale.

As an Early Contributor, I don't think I have anything to feel bad about. For one, I'm telling you I'm an Early Contributor, which is pretty transparent. Secondly, the amount of Factoids given to us is actually not very comparable to the value of our time investment--our hope is that the value goes up. Lastly, I don't see the effective difference between paying us in Factoids and paying us in crowdsale funds--you're getting Factoids for money, and we're getting them for work. Why is that bad?

Also, even if your arguments are correct, "scam" is still an exaggeration to the point of untruth. "Bad deal" would be more accurate. "Scam" would only be accurate if there were never going to be any working Factoids, or if Koinify gave them all the crowdsale funds without achieving any milestones or working product.

[fartbags]

Factom Sale Purchasers
50%
Available for purchase by the public during the sale.

Early Purchasers
20%
Reserved for early purchasers prior to public sale.

Early Contributors
30%
Reserved for core team and key contributors.



To make this not a scam, all of these should be combined into 1 group.

I'm not sure what the early contributors did (this information is hidden) but lets just say one person did 100 BTC worth of work or marketing before the crowdsale. This would be considered 100 BTC added into the 2,278.7 BTC crowdsale. Crowdsale would now say they raised 2,278.7 + 100 BTC.

The early contributor who did 100 BTC of work will receive the exact same amount of factoids as a crowd sale investor who invested 100 BTC.



The private early purchases should have never happened. It should have been public the whole time. Then publicly raised funds could have been used to pay early contributors instead of giving them a percentage of factoids. Of course they could then buy into the crowdsale with those funds if they wanted to own some factoids.

Things get really confusing when you think early purchasers bought factoids but what happened to that money? Was it not enough to cover early contributor costs? This is alarming.




This whole thing is a big mess. If factoids drop below crowd sale price and remain there for months, I think it's over for Koinify. No one will trust them again. Did Koinify also do Augur? The pages look really similar.

People will start saying "Why buy a Koinify crowdsale when you can get it 50% off after it launches on an exchange".

[The Bitcoin Co-op]

That's not what a scam is. You're abusing the definition of it. A scam is not any business model you disagree with.

It's getting really annoying how people just use the word on anything and anybody in the Bitcoin community, because it has lost all meaning. Now what the fuck do we call it when someone pulls an actual scam, like Butterfly Labs? A mega scam? An uber scam?

That's stupid. Scams are black and white things. You're either telling the truth or you're not. I can't kind of lie to you, because lying is an intended thing--an unintended lie is called a "mistake."