NastyMining - Free Electricity, No Fees, NastyFans.org

[OgNasty]

I might suggest using x dollars per month to repurchase seats and use them for giveaways.

I do really really like the idea!

One issue for seat holders is the lack of liquidity in the auctions. There is only a "sell side" but the buy side of the order book is missing.
Regular seat purchases would make the seat market more liquid.

Its like a stock buyback program: good for the remaining seat holders!

What to do with the seats that have been bought back is another question   

I don’t think using our funds to manipulate the market is a good thing for anyone and nonnakip has stated he does not want to have fans depositing funds to hold on the site.

The market looks like there’s demand for seats.. There were just a couple hundred seats traded after being listed only a few days. The problem is that sellers are asking more than buyers want to pay. The current lowest priced seat is nearly double the price of the last sale. I would recommend potential sellers list their seats for sale closer to the last sale price if they want them to sell.

[Fruitmandje]

I'd like to propose a vote to optionally payout the pending distributions.

As the distributions will never reach the treshold in our livetimes, the (minted) seats have become a worthless investment. By giving the option to manually make the payout, it suddenly becomes a savings account again. I'm confident that this will be reflected in market-price of seats and appreciation / activity of the club.

Please know that it's only about "giving the option". Due to the size of the club i don't think it will happen very often.
So it can be as easy as an email with a manual approval, bookkeeping entry and transaction on your side.

[OgNasty]

I'd like to propose a vote to optionally payout the pending distributions.

As the distributions will never reach the treshold in our livetimes, the (minted) seats have become a worthless investment. By giving the option to manually make the payout, it suddenly becomes a savings account again. I'm confident that this will be reflected in market-price of seats and appreciation / activity of the club.

Please know that it's only about "giving the option". Due to the size of the club i don't think it will happen very often.
So it can be as easy as an email with a manual approval, bookkeeping entry and transaction on your side.

You’d want to peel your coin to access below the threshold funds? That seems to me like taking an axe to a Cadillac to try and get the gas inside the gas tank to sell. If there’s demand that wants this I could see looking into it, but it sounds more like a dust attack then a feature to me.

I would agree that there should be options available. Personally, I’d like to see peeled coins “claimed” and have the seat removed from the coin and any pending balances moved to the claimant’s account where they could be distributed that way, but I’m not a capable developer for something like this so I can only make requests same as you.

As for your claim that seats will never reach the payout in our lifetimes, you should refrain from saying things that are not only untrue, but also extremely pessimistic. I would recommend you learn “the secret” as I think it would change your life given your irrational pessimism.

[Fruitmandje]

Yes, i'd like to be able to access the funds on the coin below the threshold!
With an “optional pending payout”, i know that i'm able to spend the “rewards" whenever i see fit. 



This is a positive suggestion to restore confidence in the investment as a whole and I'd like to hear if there are others who are with me on this one.


Good to know that i'm pessimistic; i'd like to hear your expectation when we'll reach the treshold

[Quickseller]

I might suggest using x dollars per month to repurchase seats and use them for giveaways.

I do really really like the idea!

One issue for seat holders is the lack of liquidity in the auctions. There is only a "sell side" but the buy side of the order book is missing.
Regular seat purchases would make the seat market more liquid.

Its like a stock buyback program: good for the remaining seat holders!

What to do with the seats that have been bought back is another question  

I don’t think using our funds to manipulate the market is a good thing for anyone and nonnakip has stated he does not want to have fans depositing funds to hold on the site.

The market looks like there’s demand for seats.. There were just a couple hundred seats traded after being listed only a few days. The problem is that sellers are asking more than buyers want to pay. The current lowest priced seat is nearly double the price of the last sale. I would recommend potential sellers list their seats for sale closer to the last sale price if they want them to sell.

Those seats were actually listed for sale for several months, they sold a few days after being listed at rock bottom prices, below their share of bitcoin that NF has in savings.

[OgNasty]

Yes, i'd like to be able to access the funds on the coin below the threshold!
With an “optional pending payout”, i know that i'm able to spend the “rewards" whenever i see fit. 



This is a positive suggestion to restore confidence in the investment as a whole and I'd like to hear if there are others who are with me on this one.


Good to know that i'm pessimistic; i'd like to hear your expectation when we'll reach the treshold

I agree you should be able to access any BTC you consider yours. If you’re willing to peel the coin to do so, I don’t see any problem with it. It is up to nonnakip to put in the work to make this happen though, and I’m not sure how much time he has for things like that. I did offer to match donations made to him for development a while back to try and entice him to add more developments like this but nobody ever took me up on it. I can only do what I can do. If users wanted to vote to donate a portion of the savings it would likely be possible for many more coins to hit the threshold that way to trigger their distributions.

As for when coins will hit the threshold, every one is different. It depends on a number of factors. Many of the coins have received distributions and all of the distribution data and amounts held under the threshold are all public.

Those seats were actually listed for sale for several months, they sold a few days after being listed at rock bottom prices, below their share of bitcoin that NF has in savings.

Yes, you had them listed way too high with the rising BTC rate and the market wouldn’t pay that price. You then lowered it down substantially (lower than probably needed) and they sold extremely quickly. That’s how free markets work.

[TwitchySeal]

Those seats were actually listed for sale for several months, they sold a few days after being listed at rock bottom prices, below their share of bitcoin that NF has in savings.

Yes, you had them listed way too high with the rising BTC rate and the market wouldn’t pay that price. You then lowered it down substantially (lower than probably needed) and they sold extremely quickly. That’s how free markets work.

If the seats you were referring to were listed for several months then, considering your position, it was very unethical to make to this claim:

There were just a couple hundred seats traded after being listed only a few days.

[OgNasty]

If the seats you were referring to were listed for several months then, considering your position, it was very unethical to make to this claim:

There were just a couple hundred seats traded after being listed only a few days.

They were listed at a price that was too high. The price was lowered to something reasonable and they sold within a couple days. It isn’t hard to understand. No need to try and twist words to make it something other than exactly what I stated. Price seats reasonably, they will sell.

I’ll even go a step further and say that myself or NastyMining will buy back any amount of seats for 0.0005 BTC per seat and will extend this offer for the next several months.

[ibminer]

If the seats you were referring to were listed for several months then, considering your position, it was very unethical to make to this claim:

There were just a couple hundred seats traded after being listed only a few days.

Indeed.  

Looks like another series of Minted Seats has surpassed the cost to purchase in held BTC, or in other words, original purchasers of these seats have reached ROI and are sitting on profits as originally sold 5oz Minted Seats are now holding $474.11 with another $29.71 pending in BTC under the threshold amount, over a 125% return!  This doesn't even include the silver value, rising seat price, or savings attached to the coin's seats!

IMO, it's also unethical to make a [gloating] claim that coins, or seats, have "ROI"'d due to a BTC/USD value increase.

I was not looking for a USD return on a BTC investment which was backed by a mining operation that mines BTC and promised weekly BTC returns.. or "distributions".
But sure, let's start converting it to USD whenever it benefits Og. (/sarcasm)   .. Josh/Inaba/BFL tried this at one point as well ..  

It's definitely nice BTC has done what it was expected to do, but OgNasty doesn't get credit for that. I know I certainly had always been interested in a BTC return with this venture.. but anyway, I digress.

To be fair, I guess this guy seems happy with the USD announcement:

I must say I loved the concept of these coins and I'm glad I kept all 3 of the coins I have.  Thanks for keeping this going OgNasty

Although, it seems like an odd statement to me when following an announcement about a USD return with these seats/coins.. when you consider if this guy had not kept all 3 of the coins and sold it back for BTC, or even just the seats.. at practically any point in the past.. he'd have a much higher return in USD. So why he's glad he kept them..? *shrug*  To each his own, I guess.    

You're welcome.  It's great to get some positive feedback.  Reaching a positive ROI is a pretty amazing accomplishment and one I was told countless times it was impossible and would never happen.  Doing so in under a decade is unheard of and I feel like the club has never been in a better position for growth.  Congrats to all the owners of these coins who held through the FUD and it isn't too late to join the club.  The best days are ahead as we continue to accomplish the impossible.  

I'd guess you were told countless times it was impossible because you'll never ROI on what was actually invested, BTC.

"Congrats to all the owners"  
.. More like Congrats to BTC for rising in value and giving Og something to create a false narrative around.

[OgNasty]

If BTC fell in value instead of rose, you would very much care about the USD return. I don’t like to base the success or failure of what I’m doing on whether or not a currency I have no control over goes up or down. NastyFans has exceeded every expectation I ever had for it. If going from a $400 FPGA miner to having a million dollars in BTC within 10 years wasn’t enough growth for you, all I can say is that I’m sorry and I did my best. I will continue to do my best in the hopes that others join me and offer their talents to help make this organization even greater than it already is.

[Quickseller]

NastyFans currently has 16.801 BTC and this amount divided by 30,000 seats that are outstanding is 0.00056. I believe there are over a thousand seats that are not owned by anyone, so the actual BTC amount allocated to each seat is higher.

In terms of BTC, NastyFans has not been a good investment. In terms of USD it was a good investment when compared to the stock market.

The seats were on the market for months, and were the lowest offer for months. I had suggested privately that allowing people to post bids for seats would help with price discovery. This is similar to what the newbie posted a few posts up. I do understand the hesitation of taking user deposits to pay for bids.

I haven’t been following the returns on mining investments as of the last several years. I would think the difficulty wouldn’t have gone up as much as it has if miners would have been much better off simply buying bitcoin and holding for 6 years.

[ibminer]

If BTC fell in value instead of rose, you would very much care about the USD return.

In respect to this investment, I would care just as much as I care about it rising in value. Like I said, it's nice BTC is doing what I expected it to do. And if it was falling in value, I'd be disappointed BTC isn't doing what I expected it to do. But you don't get to claim credit, or take blame, for either.

I always expected BTC to eventually go up in USD value from where it was when I spent it here in 2015. I just assumed, as you had stated then, your "cause" was to get "BTC" into the hands of NastyFans. So, yes, my expectation of what would be considered a "ROI" here is going to be in BTC return terms.

I don’t like to base the success or failure of what I’m doing on whether or not a currency I have no control over goes up or down.

Then don't claim a "ROI" of 125% USD return on a BTC investment into a fanclub seat backed by a mining operation which mines BTC. Seems like this is boasting about its success, based on a currency's value going up, which you have no control over.

[OgNasty]

NastyFans has exceeded every expectation I ever had for it.

 

I only wish one of the hundreds of competitors that have attempted over the years what we’ve accomplished had managed to survive so there was something to compare this organization to. It’s weird that the massive creation of value from nothing is what people complain about. You’d think it was easy to save a million dollars... I’m glad we made it look that way. It’s been one hell of a ride and the journey continues!

[MoparMiningLLC]

As an outsider, let me ask a rather simple question - and this is based on my limited understanding of how these seats were set up and are treated.

If the funds used to buy seats had been used to buy BTC - would that equal more than 16.801 BTC?

If not, then the seats have made ROI and are, at some level, profitable. And the seat owners may or may not be happy with the level of ROI.

If there would have been more BTC stored by the seat owners had they just simply purchased BTC directly and held it, then the seats have not yet met ROI and are not profitable. And then the only one that has made any profits is the one selling the seats, unless he has spent the entirety of the cost of the seats on minting the seats, mining equipment and maintaining the mining equipment.


Is that a correct assessment?

[TwitchySeal]

If the seats you were referring to were listed for several months then, considering your position, it was very unethical to make to this claim:

There were just a couple hundred seats traded after being listed only a few days.

They were listed at a price that was too high. The price was lowered to something reasonable and they sold within a couple days. It isn’t hard to understand. No need to try and twist words to make it something other than exactly what I stated. Price seats reasonably, they will sell.

I’ll even go a step further and say that myself or NastyMining will buy back any amount of seats for 0.0005 BTC per seat and will extend this offer for the next several months.

You still shouldn't say "There were just a couple hundred seats traded after being listed only a few days." if they were actually listed for a few months.

It doesn't matter what you think about the price before or after, you're misleading potential buyers.  

Do you understand why it's unethical?

[OgNasty]

You still shouldn't say "There were just a couple hundred seats traded after being listed only a few days." if they were actually listed for a few months.

They weren’t. The data is very clear as well as me personally witnessing the seats being listed for less than two days before being sold to a different user on the public auction. It isn’t something we can debate. The facts are very black and white. As far as things to complain about, a user making money selling an item on a perfectly functioning public auction seems to be one of the stranger ones I’ve heard. Bless your little heart though. I love that you want to participate here, even if your efforts are misguided. It takes all kinds.

[TwitchySeal]

You still shouldn't say "There were just a couple hundred seats traded after being listed only a few days." if they were actually listed for a few months.

They weren’t. The data is very clear as well as me personally witnessing the seats being listed for less than two days before being sold to a different user on the public auction. It isn’t something we can debate. The facts are very black and white. As far as things to complain about, a user making money selling an item on a perfectly functioning public auction seems to be one of the stranger ones I’ve heard. Bless your little heart though. I love that you want to participate here, even if your efforts are misguided. It takes all kinds.

Ok, well, according to the apparent seat holder and you they were.

Those seats were actually listed for sale for several months, they sold a few days after being listed at rock bottom prices, below their share of bitcoin that NF has in savings.

Yes, you had them listed way too high with the rising BTC rate and the market wouldn’t pay that price. You then lowered it down substantially (lower than probably needed) and they sold extremely quickly. That’s how free markets work.

[OgNasty]

I’m sorry. I get that we get paid for sig spamming, but this back and forth is losing my interest. The data is very clear. The seats that sold were listed for only a couple days. If they were listed at some unrealistic price before that, I can’t comment on with any certainty and can only take QS at his word. I don’t have access to that data. All I can see from the data I have is that the seats were listed and sold at that price in under 48 hours. That is a fact and not something up for interpretation or debate.

[ibminer]

Still seems odd when you say it has "exceeded every expectation I ever had for it".. considering you stated your expectations to me were to "get BTC into the hands of NastyFans". It's an odd statement because you have taken more BTC from me than you've given back... so which is it.. are you trying to get BTC into the hands of NastyFans, or USD?  Or does it even matter.. considering, in your head, you can apparently spin either scenario into a "success"?

I get that we get paid for sig spamming, but this back and forth is losing my interest.

Well, I don't get paid for sig spamming.

You can't cancel me, Og.

[OgNasty]

Still seems odd when you say it has "exceeded every expectation I ever had for it".. considering you stated your expectations to me were to "get BTC into the hands of NastyFans". It's an odd statement because you have taken more BTC from me than you've given back... so which is it.. are you trying to get BTC into the hands of NastyFans, or USD?  Or does it even matter.. considering, in your head, you can apparently spin either scenario into a "success"?

Why would it seem odd that this has exceeded my expectations?  This was started as a project to run an FPGA miner that cost around $400 at the time.  That would be like someone raising money to buy a GPU miner today, then 9 years from now they have a million dollars and some idiots are going around saying it was a stupid investment.  I don't know about you, but if someone borrowed $400 from me today and 9 years from now they gave me a million dollars back while paying me weekly the entire time, I wouldn't be crying about the return and calling that person a scammer.  That would be foolish and embarrassing. 

As for the stated goal of NastyFans being to get BTC in the hands of NastyFans...  I think you literally just made that up.  If anything, NastyFans is a unique diversification play that would have done well regardless of if BTC went up or down due to it's product line and no cost mining capabilities.  My actual goal with this organization was to show that there's a better way to run an organization that can let everyone play a role in it's success while utilizing the transparent and unique nature of Bitcoin along with renewable energy.  It's a proof of concept that doesn't need any of the typical infrastructure and cannot fail unless it's given up on by everyone involved.  Much like Bitcoin itself. 

In case you were too lazy to actually look at the policy and about sections on nastyfans.org before wrongly assuming our goals, let me highlight the first line of this thread for you, since you seem to have failed to see what this organization is about.  I'd say you should probably read it a few times and hold yourself accountable for not understanding what you're attacking.  Maybe take a look at how transparent we are and the efforts that are being put forth without compensation and appreciate that some people care enough to put their time and money into something in the hopes of inspiring others to build on Bitcoin.

NASTYFANS INTRODUCTION:
NastyFans is a club for Bitcoin Enthusiasts established in 2012 to show how a fun & transparent community project can be built with Bitcoin.