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 Author Topic: 🎲 DiceSites.com - List of dice sites w/ statistics, graphs & verifiers  (Read 24841 times)
seuntjie
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 January 12, 2017, 09:38:32 AM

That's called "hash collisions". Dice sites always use SHA-2 to hash their serverseeds. SHA-2 has no known hash collisions.

Note: if it were that easy to make collision attacks on SHA-2, dice sites would be the least of your worries. Governments, bitcoin, the Internet, banks, etc. would all have a huge problem.

edit: you are talking about MD5. Dice sites do not and should never use MD5 indeed.

you can find for sha-256 and 512

You CAN yes, but it's highly unlikely.

sha has 2^256 different combinations, or 1.15x10^77. using the total bitcoin hash rate of about 2,467,177,537,000 million hashes per second, it would still take about 7x10^56 years to have about a 50% chance of having cracked your seed.
That's 7 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years
Many people don't understand the significance of this many zeros. For instance, the latest estimates put the universe at 13 772 000 000 years old.

Entropy would likely run out long before you've had a 50% chance of cracking your seed. Meaning the universe is going to die long before you're likely to crack your seed.

Sha512 is even longer, as it has 2^512 combinations, or 1.34x10^154

But technically you can get lucky and hit it on your first try.

Edit: I don't understand how the sha algorithms work (my math is not nearly good enough for that) but as I understand, simply having a hash collision won't be good enough for the RNG purposes. You need the exact same match. For instance:

Hello and qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnmqwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm might result in the same hash, but as I understand the hashing algorithms, 1:Hello:clientseed and 1:qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnmqwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm:clientseed is NOT going to give you the same hash, which means the numbers you're going to get from the RNG is going to be different. Any cryptography boffins are free to correct me if I'm wrong about this.

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Sora Aoi
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 January 14, 2017, 02:22:28 AM

Hey Nico,

Just a heads up. I think you should really consider removing SatoshiDice from your website.

I've had two friends recently tell me ~49 btc and ~77 btc have disappeared from their accounts the past week. The only response they have received from support so far is that they are "looking into it."

I then took the time to read old posts from their thread since December and there have been other numerous issues. This includes ignoring claims of btc amounts disappearing from player accounts, refusing to honor past tlb payouts, and never properly addressing an empty hotwallet.

-Sora Aoi
NLNico
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DiceSites.com owner

 January 15, 2017, 03:27:48 AM

I have considered to remove them before for having bad support, but generally the issues were always solved "eventually". These latest issues seem to be very serious though and about big amounts, so I removed them from my site for now too. Note that I do still track the stats at https://dicesites.com/satoshidice I hope it will all still be resolved.

Sora Aoi
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 January 15, 2017, 06:40:21 AM

Thanks Nico.

I think it's the right call. I hope so too but it's not looking good at the moment.

-SoraAoi
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 January 15, 2017, 07:46:44 AM

That's called "hash collisions". Dice sites always use SHA-2 to hash their serverseeds. SHA-2 has no known hash collisions.

Note: if it were that easy to make collision attacks on SHA-2, dice sites would be the least of your worries. Governments, bitcoin, the Internet, banks, etc. would all have a huge problem.

edit: you are talking about MD5. Dice sites do not and should never use MD5 indeed.

you can find for sha-256 and 512

You CAN yes, but it's highly unlikely.

sha has 2^256 different combinations, or 1.15x10^77. using the total bitcoin hash rate of about 2,467,177,537,000 million hashes per second, it would still take about 7x10^56 years to have about a 50% chance of having cracked your seed.
That's 7 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years
Many people don't understand the significance of this many zeros. For instance, the latest estimates put the universe at 13 772 000 000 years old.

Entropy would likely run out long before you've had a 50% chance of cracking your seed. Meaning the universe is going to die long before you're likely to crack your seed.

Sha512 is even longer, as it has 2^512 combinations, or 1.34x10^154

But technically you can get lucky and hit it on your first try.

Edit: I don't understand how the sha algorithms work (my math is not nearly good enough for that) but as I understand, simply having a hash collision won't be good enough for the RNG purposes. You need the exact same match. For instance:

Hello and qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnmqwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm might result in the same hash, but as I understand the hashing algorithms, 1:Hello:clientseed and 1:qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnmqwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm:clientseed is NOT going to give you the same hash, which means the numbers you're going to get from the RNG is going to be different. Any cryptography boffins are free to correct me if I'm wrong about this.

https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/967.pdf

if you want you can find for sha256 and sha512.

Provided hash before bet - not guarantee fair
NLNico
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 January 15, 2017, 08:41:10 AM

Did you even read the title of that paper? "Freestart collision for full SHA-1".

We are talking about SHA-2 (includes SHA-256 and SHA-512) - used by the dice sites.

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 January 15, 2017, 05:02:10 PM

Did you even read the title of that paper? "Freestart collision for full SHA-1".

We are talking about SHA-2 (includes SHA-256 and SHA-512) - used by the dice sites.

Quote
you can find for sha-256 and 512

example: New Collision attacks Against Up To 24-step SHA-2
https://eprint.iacr.org/2008/270.pdf

NLNico
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 January 16, 2017, 01:11:18 AM

From the abstract:
Quote
Although these attacks improve upon the existing reduced round SHA-2 attacks, they do not threaten the security of the full SHA-2 family.

SHA-256 has 64 rounds and SHA-512 has 80 rounds. Since this is impossible to attack, researchers reduce the number of rounds and try to attack that. It gets exponentially more difficult though. So if 24 rounds (from that paper) or even 28 rounds (based on latest papers) of SHA-256 are practical enough to attack - it still doesn't compromise the security of full SHA-2 at all.

I will repeat: There are no known SHA-2 collisions.

How about you just give me 1 example of a SHA-256 and SHA-512 collision? Since you claim dice site owners can generate these on the fly, you should easily be able to give us just 1? If you want we make a bet out of, I will be happy to bet some coins on this (with escrow obviously.)

RHavar
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 January 16, 2017, 03:57:45 AM

It's also worth noting that even if dice sites had some cutting edge techniques that broke sha2 and were able to generate collisions, still their ability to undetectably cheat is still insanely limited. That's because generating a single collision isn't enough, but you need to generate one that would give all previous games, which is an incomprehensibly hard problem that gets harder exponential with the amount of games played.

In reality, if there's any weakening of sha256 you can be pretty confident it will be used *against* dice sites (and/or the bitcoin network) long before dice sites are able to feasibly use it against players.
ethan_nx
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Admin at YOLOdice.com - fast, fair, play/invest.

 January 25, 2017, 09:31:52 AM

Hi,

I am Ethan, creator/owner/admin of YOLOdice.com. I was wondering if you could list our game. YD already has 730 BTC wagered, 200 BTC in bankroll and ~50 BTC of site profit, allows investing and seems to be getting traction pretty fast.

I suppose you need some kind of API integration to get stats from the server. I am open to any ideas. I definitely like your idea of dice-only sites!

Cheers,
Ethan

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 January 26, 2017, 11:07:15 AM

Hello,

I don't know if this was asked before but will you guys enable verification checking for Fortunejack dice?

For every roll they create a new server seed hash AND a client seed (you can change this) and they have a verification but wondering if there is a 3rd party one I can use.

Is it possible for this site, I tried to use the Primedice one however the results didn't match.

 .FORTUNE.JACK. ▄▄███████▄▄   ▄████▀▀ ▄ ██████▄  ████ ▄▄███ ████████ █████▌▐███▌ ▀▄ ▀████████████▄██▀▀▀▀▄█████████████▀▄▄▄▄█████████████████▄▄▄▄ ██████████████ ██████▌ ███▀█████████  ███████▄▀▄█████████   ▀█████▀▀████████▀      ▀▀███████▀▀          █         █ ...FortuneJack.com                                              ...THE BIGGEST BITCOIN GAMBLING SITE │ ▄▄█████████▄▄    ▄█████████████████▄  ▄█████████████████████▄ ▄███████████▀███████████▄▄██████████▀   ▀██████████▄█████████▀       ▀█████████████████           ████████████████▄   ▄ ▄   ▄████████▀██████████▀   ▀██████████▀ ▀███████████████████████▀  ▀█████████████████████▀    ▀█████████████████▀       ▀▀█████████▀▀ #JACKMATEWIN 1 BTC │ ▄█████████████████████████▄████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████▀█████▀█████████████████▀░░▀░░░░░▀░░▀█████████████▌░░░░░░░░░░░░░▐████████████░░░░██░░░██░░░░███████████▌░░░░▀▀░░░▀▀░░░░▐███████████▄░░▄▄▄░░░▄▄▄░░▄██████████████▄▄███████▄▄██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████▀█████████████████████████▀ │
Juicey_SD
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SafeDice.com

 January 27, 2017, 04:56:45 PM

Hi there!

I looked at your site and I am very impressed! Thank you for featuring SafeDice on your site! I do have one question, is there a way to update our max win on your site because right now it says 24 BTC but you can actually win 63 BTC in one roll at SafeDice at the moment.
joksim299
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 January 27, 2017, 05:10:33 PM

Hi there!

I looked at your site and I am very impressed! Thank you for featuring SafeDice on your site! I do have one question, is there a way to update our max win on your site because right now it says 24 BTC but you can actually win 63 BTC in one roll at SafeDice at the moment.

If we attempt to win 63BTC what house edge will be on that roll?

Juicey_SD
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SafeDice.com

 January 27, 2017, 07:18:55 PM

Hi there!

I looked at your site and I am very impressed! Thank you for featuring SafeDice on your site! I do have one question, is there a way to update our max win on your site because right now it says 24 BTC but you can actually win 63 BTC in one roll at SafeDice at the moment.

If we attempt to win 63BTC what house edge will be on that roll?

If you rolled 63 BTC the house edge would be 4.5% but 10 BTC roll is .8% house edge.
NLNico
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DiceSites.com owner

 January 28, 2017, 05:35:56 AM

I am Ethan, creator/owner/admin of YOLOdice.com. I was wondering if you could list our game. YD already has 730 BTC wagered, 200 BTC in bankroll and ~50 BTC of site profit, allows investing and seems to be getting traction pretty fast.
That is indeed a pretty good start, nice job

I generally only add sites that has been around for a while though. So while I do expect to follow your site personally, I will probably just add it after some more time. Besides that, I am still finishing my new version of the site and will add other sites (that has been waiting longer :d) first too.

I suppose you need some kind of API integration to get stats from the server. I am open to any ideas. I definitely like your idea of dice-only sites!
Yes, ideally I can just get the stats in JSON format from some URL

I don't know if this was asked before but will you guys enable verification checking for Fortunejack dice?
The problem is that they faked statistics before. Since my site is all about statistics, I find that a pretty serious issue. Of course I could just add only a verifier and not that stats-part.. but I am not sure. I will still think a bit about that

I looked at your site and I am very impressed! Thank you for featuring SafeDice on your site! I do have one question, is there a way to update our max win on your site because right now it says 24 BTC but you can actually win 63 BTC in one roll at SafeDice at the moment.
Thanks. The max profit of SafeDice on my website, is based on the highest house edge from other dice sites (which is SatoshiDice at 1.9% HE.) So you are able to win 24.1 BTC on SafeDice with a house edge of exactly 1.9% (and this is automatically updated to always be at 1.9% HE.) I consider that the most fair way of showing the max profit of SafeDice, since I don't recommend people to bet with a 5% HE.

Juicey_SD
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SafeDice.com

 January 28, 2017, 06:02:47 AM

Ahhh okay now I understand. That makes sense and I really like the site by the way.
1982dre
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 January 28, 2017, 06:31:52 AM

ethan_nx
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Admin at YOLOdice.com - fast, fair, play/invest.

 January 31, 2017, 12:41:32 PM

I am Ethan, creator/owner/admin of YOLOdice.com. I was wondering if you could list our game. YD already has 730 BTC wagered, 200 BTC in bankroll and ~50 BTC of site profit, allows investing and seems to be getting traction pretty fast.
That is indeed a pretty good start, nice job

I generally only add sites that has been around for a while though. So while I do expect to follow your site personally, I will probably just add it after some more time. Besides that, I am still finishing my new version of the site and will add other sites (that has been waiting longer :d) first too.

I suppose you need some kind of API integration to get stats from the server. I am open to any ideas. I definitely like your idea of dice-only sites!
Yes, ideally I can just get the stats in JSON format from some URL

Thanks for your answer! I will ping you after a while then. Good luck with your site!

Cheers,
Ethan

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https://www.bitdice.me/?r=10091

 February 03, 2017, 05:28:09 PM

Used dicesite.com for long time but now dicesite.com is dead and useless site now. Since developer dont care about site anymore.

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Juicey_SD
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SafeDice.com

 February 03, 2017, 05:35:54 PM

Used dicesite.com for long time but now dicesite.com is dead and useless site now. Since developer dont care about site anymore.

How is it a useless site? I use it and I find it very informative.
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