Announcement - ASIC mining processor by Butterfly Labs

[Fiyasko]

Thread has been split yet again.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141496.0

Guys come on! Stay on topic!, Stop talking about the wizard of Oz and Kansas and how Newegg sells shoes!
Not only is this one of the most heavily moderated threads i can think of, But its already been "cleaned and split" before, And you've made him do it again!
And by the looks of it, He may soon have to do it a Third time!

Also, Very happy to see new photos

[makomk]

Avalon went with a very simple chip on a large(110nm) process. I imagine this strategy gave them very high yields out of the wafers because of the small chip size. This came at the cost of a large PCB to route to all the chips.

Well, that's certainly going to be part of the reason. However, take a look at the distance between chips on the BFL board and compare it to the distance between chips on the Avalon board. Now remember Josh's comment about the PCB ground plane not being able to dissipate enough heat due to the thermal density of their design, and how having to redesign the chips to fix this delayed shipping  whilst Avalon shipped on schedue using similar QFN chips.

[Gomeler]

Avalon went with a very simple chip on a large(110nm) process. I imagine this strategy gave them very high yields out of the wafers because of the small chip size. This came at the cost of a large PCB to route to all the chips.

Well, that's certainly going to be part of the reason. However, take a look at the distance between chips on the BFL board and compare it to the distance between chips on the Avalon board. Now remember Josh's comment about the PCB ground plane not being able to dissipate enough heat due to the thermal density of their design, and how having to redesign the chips to fix this delayed shipping  whilst Avalon shipped on schedue using similar QFN chips.

Excellent point. I have minimal knowledge of using the the ground pad and vias to transmit heat through the PCB but it makes logical sense that Avalon would use a larger than electrically necessary PCB to give each chip some buffer from neighboring chips.

[Askit2]

Avalon went with a very simple chip on a large(110nm) process. I imagine this strategy gave them very high yields out of the wafers because of the small chip size. This came at the cost of a large PCB to route to all the chips.

Well, that's certainly going to be part of the reason. However, take a look at the distance between chips on the BFL board and compare it to the distance between chips on the Avalon board. Now remember Josh's comment about the PCB ground plane not being able to dissipate enough heat due to the thermal density of their design, and how having to redesign the chips to fix this delayed shipping  whilst Avalon shipped on schedue using similar QFN chips.

Excellent point. I have minimal knowledge of using the the ground pad and vias to transmit heat through the PCB but it makes logical sense that Avalon would use a larger than electrically necessary PCB to give each chip some buffer from neighboring chips.

Wouldn't this require also the chips be physically farther apart to avoid heat soaking the inner ones? Plus wouldn't moving them farther apart increase the delay while communicating?

I guess a person could just make a huge board and run copper out to the edges but the thermal transfer isn't as effective as a nearer solution. The size of the piece of whatever metal would dictate the maximum amount of heat that would flow at a given thermal difference. It seems like going with a flip chip (ala P3) rather then older QFN would save materials and allow a more efficient board design. By efficient I mean all data would transfer faster going over a shorter connection. Yes short trips nearly speed of light etc but small changes in location on other devices have caused >10% increases in speed.

I think the more compact design would do better if it can be cooled. Thus far I see no reason it can't be cooled.

[bitcoindaddy]

FYI

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

... so I going from Oz (Aus) to Kansas (City) ... isn't that back to front?

Whoo-hoo! Kano is coming to America!  Everyone get your daughters locked up safe!

[nbtcminer]

FYI

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

... so I going from Oz (Aus) to Kansas (City) ... isn't that back to front?

Whoo-hoo! Kano is coming to America!  Everyone get your daughters locked up safe!

[hotdealdave]

Crikey!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

FYI

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

... so I going from Oz (Aus) to Kansas (City) ... isn't that back to front?

Whoo-hoo! Kano is coming to America!  Everyone get your daughters locked up safe!

Guess it before clicking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3S7mlRYL-8

[PuertoLibre]

FYI

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

... so I going from Oz (Aus) to Kansas (City) ... isn't that back to front?

Whoo-hoo! Kano is coming to America!  Everyone get your daughters locked up safe!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtZfW2z9dw

Play it!

[smoothie]

FYI

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

... so I going from Oz (Aus) to Kansas (City) ... isn't that back to front?

That's quite the trip! How many days do they have you touring the facilities? Anything specific on the agenda?

Agenda: To get their stories straight so when he reports back on the forums it is exactly how BFL wants him to report things lol.

[Gomeler]

Avalon went with a very simple chip on a large(110nm) process. I imagine this strategy gave them very high yields out of the wafers because of the small chip size. This came at the cost of a large PCB to route to all the chips.

Well, that's certainly going to be part of the reason. However, take a look at the distance between chips on the BFL board and compare it to the distance between chips on the Avalon board. Now remember Josh's comment about the PCB ground plane not being able to dissipate enough heat due to the thermal density of their design, and how having to redesign the chips to fix this delayed shipping  whilst Avalon shipped on schedue using similar QFN chips.

Excellent point. I have minimal knowledge of using the the ground pad and vias to transmit heat through the PCB but it makes logical sense that Avalon would use a larger than electrically necessary PCB to give each chip some buffer from neighboring chips.

Wouldn't this require also the chips be physically farther apart to avoid heat soaking the inner ones? Plus wouldn't moving them farther apart increase the delay while communicating?

I guess a person could just make a huge board and run copper out to the edges but the thermal transfer isn't as effective as a nearer solution. The size of the piece of whatever metal would dictate the maximum amount of heat that would flow at a given thermal difference. It seems like going with a flip chip (ala P3) rather then older QFN would save materials and allow a more efficient board design. By efficient I mean all data would transfer faster going over a shorter connection. Yes short trips nearly speed of light etc but small changes in location on other devices have caused >10% increases in speed.

I think the more compact design would do better if it can be cooled. Thus far I see no reason it can't be cooled.

The communication between the chips and the controller is minimal. I am also of the opinion that the more compact design would be better but for compute density reasons. BFL excites me for the possibility of watercooling their chips and ending up with an insanely dense mining cluster. I hope in a few generations BTC ASICs are something that we could order like FPGAs now and assemble custom PCBs to suit our own desires.

[Askit2]

Avalon went with a very simple chip on a large(110nm) process. I imagine this strategy gave them very high yields out of the wafers because of the small chip size. This came at the cost of a large PCB to route to all the chips.

Well, that's certainly going to be part of the reason. However, take a look at the distance between chips on the BFL board and compare it to the distance between chips on the Avalon board. Now remember Josh's comment about the PCB ground plane not being able to dissipate enough heat due to the thermal density of their design, and how having to redesign the chips to fix this delayed shipping  whilst Avalon shipped on schedue using similar QFN chips.

Excellent point. I have minimal knowledge of using the the ground pad and vias to transmit heat through the PCB but it makes logical sense that Avalon would use a larger than electrically necessary PCB to give each chip some buffer from neighboring chips.

Wouldn't this require also the chips be physically farther apart to avoid heat soaking the inner ones? Plus wouldn't moving them farther apart increase the delay while communicating?

I guess a person could just make a huge board and run copper out to the edges but the thermal transfer isn't as effective as a nearer solution. The size of the piece of whatever metal would dictate the maximum amount of heat that would flow at a given thermal difference. It seems like going with a flip chip (ala P3) rather then older QFN would save materials and allow a more efficient board design. By efficient I mean all data would transfer faster going over a shorter connection. Yes short trips nearly speed of light etc but small changes in location on other devices have caused >10% increases in speed.

I think the more compact design would do better if it can be cooled. Thus far I see no reason it can't be cooled.

The communication between the chips and the controller is minimal. I am also of the opinion that the more compact design would be better but for compute density reasons. BFL excites me for the possibility of watercooling their chips and ending up with an insanely dense mining cluster. I hope in a few generations BTC ASICs are something that we could order like FPGAs now and assemble custom PCBs to suit our own desires.

I agree I guess my point was at each speed increase the unit either needs to roll work (more complicated design per chip) or get new work more often making the latency a larger issue as even from on board ram takes time (not much). I don't mean that the latency is huge per se. Just that say a current single has a latency of about .01 second I think it was with the proper bus speed (mostly USB delay and fixed in asics). now the Jalapeno will hash 5x as fast and if the latency stayed the same instead of .01 per 5.1 seconds it would be 0.19% but .01 of about 1 second becomes 1%. The percentage is small enough at low rates. As speed increases latency becomes a speed limiter. Again current to new isn't apples to apples. Current gets work, works, finsihes, submits, gets new work. New will they said cache next work so get work, work, get more work, finish work, work, get more work. This will remove a ton of latency.

I like the sound of what BFL said they changed. I like the higher density board. I like the heatsink getting less thermal resistance to the core. All these things will make for a better end product as long as they are accurate and work as expected. Not that I am saying a FCBGA isn't a viable chip, just that caching and FC will help a lot.

[kano]

FYI

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

... so I going from Oz (Aus) to Kansas (City) ... isn't that back to front?

That's quite the trip! How many days do they have you touring the facilities? Anything specific on the agenda?

Agenda: To get their stories straight so when he reports back on the forums it is exactly how BFL wants him to report things lol.

There's a reason why your ignore is so dark ...

You are so far off the mark and you've made a comment based on zero knowledge of the situation ... or is your statement simply to mean that you can easily be bought and just assume others are like you?

Here's most of the opening and closing of the recent PM I sent Josh to find out where they were at and then got the visit finally organised.

Code:

Feb-2

Hey Josh,

you got any update on where your guys are at?

I'm certainly not someone to promote your guys unsubstantiated claims coz
of your crap history (even with the ASIC), and you know full well I've never been
a fan of BFL, but the Avalon people are really pissing me off, Tom's gone down
the drain, and I would certainly be happy to be able to run a BFL ASIC on an rpi
and show it leaving Avalon's shit in the dust.

...
...

So ... when is anything happening at BFL?

P.S. if anything I've said on the forum lately has pissed your guys off - oh well,
damn shame :)

[SellingMyGPUs]

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

Great, let's start posting more details like your real name and flight numbers so Echelon can pick it up.

So you have received a free (cattle class?) flight by a guy you never met in real life but know from the Internets.
You are a software developer who made significant contributions to Bitcoin, a crypto currency used by people who want to escape the fiat currency and who are interested in privacy and don't like the government monetary policies. Let's not forget money laundering and illegal gambling. Let's not mention Silk Road and controlled substances legislation (I guess sports people in .au must be big fans of SR)

The company who invites you (Butterfly Labs Inc. - Bitcoin Mining Hardware - ASIC Bitcoin Miner) to come over is paying for your flight and your hotel. Do you already know what hotel you are staying in, immigration will ask. The said company is release a spiffing new piece of crypto hardware they hope to export out of the USA. They want you to write various articles to promote the product by endorsing it's existence and perhaps add some more software support.

Surely this is not a vacation trip but something a bit harder to explain to immigration. I see plenty of red flags going up, starting with the fact they paid for your trip (and they know that before you get onto the plane), you work in the field they are active in and you'll probably travel with the tools of your trade like a laptop.

Don't you need an H-1B?

I got hassled so many times by US immigration it's no longer funny, a lot of times because some of the red flags stated above. (The only time I did not get any trouble was when I flew into Vegas and the only thing I muttered was 'gambling and hookers')

Don't be a jerk to the CBP officers.. "Yes Sir"... "No Sir"... etc

Have fun! ;-)

(feel free to add more search words to this thread to make it an interesting visit)

[kano]

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

Great, let's start posting more details like your real name and flight numbers so Echelon can pick it up.

So you have received a free (cattle class?) flight by a guy you never met in real life but know from the Internets.
You are a software developer who made significant contributions to Bitcoin, a crypto currency used by people who want to escape the fiat currency and who are interested in privacy and don't like the government monetary policies. Let's not forget money laundering and illegal gambling. Let's not mention Silk Road and controlled substances legislation (I guess sports people in .au must be big fans of SR)

The company who invites you (Butterfly Labs Inc. - Bitcoin Mining Hardware - ASIC Bitcoin Miner) to come over is paying for your flight and your hotel. Do you already know what hotel you are staying in, immigration will ask. The said company is release a spiffing new piece of crypto hardware they hope to export out of the USA. They want you to write various articles to promote the product by endorsing it's existence and perhaps add some more software support.

Surely this is not a vacation trip but something a bit harder to explain to immigration. I see plenty of red flags going up, starting with the fact they paid for your trip (and they know that before you get onto the plane), you work in the field they are active in and you'll probably travel with the tools of your trade like a laptop.

Don't you need an H-1B?

I got hassled so many times by US immigration it's no longer funny, a lot of times because some of the red flags stated above. (The only time I did not get any trouble was when I flew into Vegas and the only thing I muttered was 'gambling and hookers')

Don't be a jerk to the CBP officers.. "Yes Sir"... "No Sir"... etc

Have fun! ;-)

(feel free to add more search words to this thread to make it an interesting visit)

Well I've been to the US 4 times before ... though the last 2 were in 2000, for a US company I was working for over the net from Aus.
Never been hassled in the US - though of course since 9/11 things have changed.

... and I already have a visa ... that was weird - as soon as it's processed the payment on the US government website it replies that you have your visa.
I do of course have the address where I'm staying and typed that on the visa application.

I'll tell you all about anything interesting getting through customs when I get back

I've travelled to many countries including china long ago, a lot of europe and england twice, my second US visit covered many states - I'm not one to be concerned about such stuff at all.
The most interesting part may be the fact that I carry drugs on myself (insulin) and the needle tips for the pens ... and have for almost 30 years.

P.S. you can look up my real name easily enough

[CoinHoarder]

BFL needs witnesses to confirm they are delaying again? I no comprehendo...

[Nemesis]

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

Great, let's start posting more details like your real name and flight numbers so Echelon can pick it up.

So you have received a free (cattle class?) flight by a guy you never met in real life but know from the Internets.
You are a software developer who made significant contributions to Bitcoin, a crypto currency used by people who want to escape the fiat currency and who are interested in privacy and don't like the government monetary policies. Let's not forget money laundering and illegal gambling. Let's not mention Silk Road and controlled substances legislation (I guess sports people in .au must be big fans of SR)

The company who invites you (Butterfly Labs Inc. - Bitcoin Mining Hardware - ASIC Bitcoin Miner) to come over is paying for your flight and your hotel. Do you already know what hotel you are staying in, immigration will ask. The said company is release a spiffing new piece of crypto hardware they hope to export out of the USA. They want you to write various articles to promote the product by endorsing it's existence and perhaps add some more software support.

Surely this is not a vacation trip but something a bit harder to explain to immigration. I see plenty of red flags going up, starting with the fact they paid for your trip (and they know that before you get onto the plane), you work in the field they are active in and you'll probably travel with the tools of your trade like a laptop.

Don't you need an H-1B?

I got hassled so many times by US immigration it's no longer funny, a lot of times because some of the red flags stated above. (The only time I did not get any trouble was when I flew into Vegas and the only thing I muttered was 'gambling and hookers')

Don't be a jerk to the CBP officers.. "Yes Sir"... "No Sir"... etc

Have fun! ;-)

(feel free to add more search words to this thread to make it an interesting visit)

Well I've been to the US 4 times before ... though the last 2 were in 2000, for a US company I was working for over the net from Aus.
Never been hassled in the US - though of course since 9/11 things have changed.

... and I already have a visa ... that was weird - as soon as it's processed the payment on the US government website it replies that you have your visa.
I do of course have the address where I'm staying and typed that on the visa application.

I'll tell you all about anything interesting getting through customs when I get back

I've travelled to many countries including china long ago, a lot of europe and england twice, my second US visit covered many states - I'm not one to be concerned about such stuff at all.
The most interesting part may be the fact that I carry drugs on myself (insulin) and the needle tips for the pens ... and have for almost 30 years.

P.S. you can look up my real name easily enough

I cant wait for you trip. You're one of the most respectable user here. I wish you all the best.

[jjiimm_64]

So you have received a free (cattle class?) flight by a guy you never met in real life but know from the Internets.
You are a software developer who made significant contributions to Bitcoin, a crypto currency used by people who want to escape the fiat currency and who are interested in privacy and don't like the government monetary policies. Let's not forget money laundering and illegal gambling. Let's not mention Silk Road and controlled substances legislation (I guess sports people in .au must be big fans of SR)

The company who invites you (Butterfly Labs Inc. - Bitcoin Mining Hardware - ASIC Bitcoin Miner) to come over is paying for your flight and your hotel. Do you already know what hotel you are staying in, immigration will ask. The said company is release a spiffing new piece of crypto hardware they hope to export out of the USA. They want you to write various articles to promote the product by endorsing it's existence and perhaps add some more software support.

Surely this is not a vacation trip but something a bit harder to explain to immigration. I see plenty of red flags going up, starting with the fact they paid for your trip (and they know that before you get onto the plane), you work in the field they are active in and you'll probably travel with the tools of your trade like a laptop.

This from a jr member with 16 posts.....?

I do not use bitcoin to escape fiat currency, and I pay income tax on every btc I get from mining.

Most users here mine bitcoins cause it was kool. setting up gpus, tuning them, pushing them. general tinkering...

who the F are you?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

Great, let's start posting more details like your real name and flight numbers so Echelon can pick it up.

So you have received a free (cattle class?) flight by a guy you never met in real life but know from the Internets.
You are a software developer who made significant contributions to Bitcoin, a crypto currency used by people who want to escape the fiat currency and who are interested in privacy and don't like the government monetary policies. Let's not forget money laundering and illegal gambling. Let's not mention Silk Road and controlled substances legislation (I guess sports people in .au must be big fans of SR)

The company who invites you (Butterfly Labs Inc. - Bitcoin Mining Hardware - ASIC Bitcoin Miner) to come over is paying for your flight and your hotel. Do you already know what hotel you are staying in, immigration will ask. The said company is release a spiffing new piece of crypto hardware they hope to export out of the USA. They want you to write various articles to promote the product by endorsing it's existence and perhaps add some more software support.

Surely this is not a vacation trip but something a bit harder to explain to immigration. I see plenty of red flags going up, starting with the fact they paid for your trip (and they know that before you get onto the plane), you work in the field they are active in and you'll probably travel with the tools of your trade like a laptop.

Don't you need an H-1B?

I got hassled so many times by US immigration it's no longer funny, a lot of times because some of the red flags stated above. (The only time I did not get any trouble was when I flew into Vegas and the only thing I muttered was 'gambling and hookers')

Don't be a jerk to the CBP officers.. "Yes Sir"... "No Sir"... etc

Have fun! ;-)

(feel free to add more search words to this thread to make it an interesting visit)

Well I've been to the US 4 times before ... though the last 2 were in 2000, for a US company I was working for over the net from Aus.
Never been hassled in the US - though of course since 9/11 things have changed.

... and I already have a visa ... that was weird - as soon as it's processed the payment on the US government website it replies that you have your visa.
I do of course have the address where I'm staying and typed that on the visa application.

I'll tell you all about anything interesting getting through customs when I get back

I've travelled to many countries including china long ago, a lot of europe and england twice, my second US visit covered many states - I'm not one to be concerned about such stuff at all.
The most interesting part may be the fact that I carry drugs on myself (insulin) and the needle tips for the pens ... and have for almost 30 years.

P.S. you can look up my real name easily enough

And if you change your mind and don't want to visit Kansas to pet a chicken, simply tell the TSA guys that you know (Doctor) Nefario and don't have any cash with you--only 1000 bitcoins on a thumbdrive.

[jjiimm_64]

Agenda: To get their stories straight so when he reports back on the forums it is exactly how BFL wants him to report things lol.

I knew I shouldn't have removed you from my iggy list.... no wonder that button is soo dark!!