YarkoL
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January 18, 2015, 07:30:56 PM |
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Checkpointing is always centralized. Owners of the private master key (like theymos) are able to set checkpoints on demand.
Quite so, but whereas in Bitcoin it is more an expediency that prevents new nodes getting lost while downloading the chain, in PoS it becomes essential part of the security model, thus effectively undoing the decentralization aspect.
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“God does not play dice"
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armin22
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January 18, 2015, 08:22:04 PM |
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I would actually love to see where this goes.
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achimsmile
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January 18, 2015, 09:42:45 PM |
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This would mitigate the attack, but it's not a good thing as it benefits the "rich" over the "poor".
I hardly think that would deter anyone who has investment in the coin. Just the same as with centralized checkpointing. Philosophy drops when money talks. Checkpointing is always centralized. Owners of the private master key (like theymos) are able to set checkpoints on demand. Cheers, Ray Checkpoints are not always centralized. Nxt uses a system where each client sets his own rolling checkpoint 720 blocks in the past.
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Rent_a_Ray
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January 18, 2015, 10:36:01 PM |
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NXT is centralized. There is no need for centralized checkpoints.
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YarkoL
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January 18, 2015, 10:40:37 PM |
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Checkpoints are not always centralized. Nxt uses a system where each client sets his own rolling checkpoint 720 blocks in the past.
isn't NXT block generation time about one in a minute? Then if something went wrong and 12 hours went by with two or more competing chains, you'd have a set of hard-coded forks. Or is there some additional mechanism to prevent that?
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“God does not play dice"
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TwinWinNerD
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CEO Bitpanda.com
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January 18, 2015, 10:50:32 PM |
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NXT is centralized. There is no need for centralized checkpoints.
What is the central authority you speak of?
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BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 18, 2015, 11:49:13 PM |
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NXT is centralized. There is no need for centralized checkpoints.
What is the central authority you speak of?
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Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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Biomech
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Anarchy is not chaos.
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January 19, 2015, 02:04:50 AM |
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Not being a programmer, I could be totally wrong here, but I thought that in many coins with checkpointing, it's simply a flag set in the blockchain every so often. I know that peercoin used central checkpointing for a while, but then dropped it in favor of a revised system that depended on live nodes rather than any central checkpointing mechanism. Am I wrong in this?
As for NXT, other than being a cast iron bitch to set up a NXT daemon, I have no opinion on it.
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jones_
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January 19, 2015, 02:39:39 AM |
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Not being a programmer, I could be totally wrong here, but I thought that in many coins with checkpointing, it's simply a flag set in the blockchain every so often. I know that peercoin used central checkpointing for a while, but then dropped it in favor of a revised system that depended on live nodes rather than any central checkpointing mechanism. Am I wrong in this?
As for NXT, other than being a cast iron bitch to set up a NXT daemon, I have no opinion on it.
checkpointing a cryptocurrency is believed to be centralized because for the checkpoint to have any effect (different than what the normal consensus would have come up with) it would have to be created by a group of people other than the original consensus group, most of the time this is the developers, so the coin with checkpoints would be centralized around the group of developers. a good resource: links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf (newbie here so probably wont show up)
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cynicSOB (OP)
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yes, sometimes I'm a cynical SOB
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January 19, 2015, 03:24:31 AM |
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Split/combine threshold at 200,000 coins at 10 days
wtf is this? are you restricting splitting coins? this restricts valid use cases of a currency... By the way you describe your attack, the result would cause financial detriment to you since you would be paying tens of thousands in fees but Stakers would also get all those Coins plus 10% more!.
why pay a lot in fees? the splitting is done in only one transaction. PPC destroys fees, they don't go to the stakers, but others do distribute the fees...
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For more secure coins: 1EqekC9YVhiWLYjG3mfKNJwrf5s3YS46WW For the lulz:1EqekC9YVhiWLYjG3mfKNJwrf5s3YS46WW
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cynicSOB (OP)
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yes, sometimes I'm a cynical SOB
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January 19, 2015, 03:30:05 AM |
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NXT is centralized. There is no need for centralized checkpoints.
What is the central authority you speak of? he may be referring to the initial distribution of the coins... NXT's checkpointing is a nice idea that prevents "long range attacks" or "n@s-style history rewrites". But of course it has the risk of splitting the network and it won't help against this short-range attack.
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For more secure coins: 1EqekC9YVhiWLYjG3mfKNJwrf5s3YS46WW For the lulz:1EqekC9YVhiWLYjG3mfKNJwrf5s3YS46WW
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Biomech
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Activity: 1372
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Anarchy is not chaos.
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January 19, 2015, 05:54:00 AM |
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Not being a programmer, I could be totally wrong here, but I thought that in many coins with checkpointing, it's simply a flag set in the blockchain every so often. I know that peercoin used central checkpointing for a while, but then dropped it in favor of a revised system that depended on live nodes rather than any central checkpointing mechanism. Am I wrong in this?
As for NXT, other than being a cast iron bitch to set up a NXT daemon, I have no opinion on it.
checkpointing a cryptocurrency is believed to be centralized because for the checkpoint to have any effect (different than what the normal consensus would have come up with) it would have to be created by a group of people other than the original consensus group, most of the time this is the developers, so the coin with checkpoints would be centralized around the group of developers. a good resource: links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf (newbie here so probably wont show up) Thanks, I'll check that out. My knowledge continues to evolve due to people like you
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Rent_a_Ray
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January 19, 2015, 06:56:50 AM |
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The alert system, the github account and the checkpoint system is centralized and controlled by a few people. Alert/Checkpointing was the idea of SN (Szabono Nickoshi) - that guy who was premining 1M of his coins. Please tell me, what makes Bitcoin/Altcoin decentralized under these circumstances? It's like democracy - a big lie.
Cheers
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allwelder
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January 19, 2015, 08:25:32 AM |
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Welcome to have a try attack to NXT.
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achimsmile
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January 19, 2015, 08:45:39 AM |
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But of course it has the risk of splitting the network and it won't help against this short-range attack.
I hereby pledge 20k Nxt if you can pull off your attack on the Nxt testnet.Conditions: You get 10% of all testnxt at least 30% of all testnxt has to be forging during your attack Reorg must be 20 blocks or more Reorg has to be verified by multiple parties Please post here for testnxt: https://nxtforum.org/testnet/some-testnxt-to-test-asset-exchange
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Crestington
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January 19, 2015, 09:11:30 AM |
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Split/combine threshold at 200,000 coins at 10 days
wtf is this? are you restricting splitting coins? this restricts valid use cases of a currency... By the way you describe your attack, the result would cause financial detriment to you since you would be paying tens of thousands in fees but Stakers would also get all those Coins plus 10% more!.
why pay a lot in fees? the splitting is done in only one transaction. PPC destroys fees, they don't go to the stakers, but others do distribute the fees... Too much splitting of Coins causes a very large amount of Bloat, this restricts the lower end of blocks being split so your reward is always more than the cost to combine. Coins shouldn't be destroyed in transactions because that restricts the amount of active Coins in circulation
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DoM P
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January 19, 2015, 10:24:15 AM |
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I haven't read the whole thread, and I have a question that may already be answered before: Has cynicSOB, the creator of this thread, been able to prove a PoS currency can be attacked by actually doing so, or is this whole thread another joke from a wannabe hacker?
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iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
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January 19, 2015, 10:35:57 AM |
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Please don't attack DMD. I just unvested $10,000 in this sweet deal, which is totally legit: Visit us: cloudmining.bit.diamonds for terms & conditions Email us: cloud@bit.diamondsI am not a Registered Investment Advisor, Broker/Dealer, Financial Analyst, Financial Bank, Securities Broker or Financial Planner. The Information is provided for information purposes only. The Information is not intended to be and does not constitute financial advice or any other advice, is general in nature and not specific to you. Before using this information to make an investment decision, you should seek the advice of a qualified and registered securities professional and undertake your own due diligence. None of the information is intended as investment advice, as an offer or solicitation of an offer to buy or sell, or as a recommendation, endorsement, or sponsorship of any security, Company, or fund. DMD Diamond is not a regulated investment vehicle. DMD Diamond, like all crypto currencies, is experimental in nature and should be considered and treated with appropriate caution. There is no central point of control or representative entity, DMD Diamond is a distributed decentralized peer-to-peer currency and commodity. Consult a licensed professional financial advisor before making any investment decisions. I am not responsible for any investment decision made by you. You are responsible for your own investment research and investment decisions.
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| "The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." David Chaum 1996 "Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect." Adam Back 2014
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Crestington
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January 19, 2015, 10:51:35 AM |
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Actually I have seen DMD around and have poked through their Github a few times over the last few months. I noticed that they have been doing work on their code quite regularly and I think I remember seeing them doing a couple promotional things earlier on as well, some celebration of Block halving and some statistics. I don't think I've seen anything negative about DMD and they've been around for like 8-9 months, mostly low-key stuff. Looks like interest is starting to pick up around DMD, maybe it's a "Diamond in The Rough"? Please don't attack DMD.
I just unvested $10,000 in this sweet deal, which is totally legit:
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