Cleanup: I'll attack some coins - I owned APEXcoin for 90 blocks

[YarkoL]

Checkpointing is always centralized. Owners of the private master key (like theymos) are able to set checkpoints on demand.

Quite so, but whereas in Bitcoin it is more an expediency
that prevents new nodes getting lost while downloading the chain,
in PoS it becomes essential part of the security model, thus
effectively undoing the decentralization aspect.

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[armin22]

I would actually love to see where this goes.

[achimsmile]

This would mitigate the attack, but it's not a good thing as it benefits the "rich" over the "poor".

I hardly think that would deter anyone who has
investment in the coin. Just the same as with centralized
checkpointing. Philosophy drops when money talks.

Checkpointing is always centralized. Owners of the private master key (like theymos) are able to set checkpoints on demand.

Cheers,
Ray

Checkpoints are not always centralized. Nxt uses a system where each client sets his own rolling checkpoint 720 blocks in the past.

[Rent_a_Ray]

NXT is centralized. There is no need for centralized checkpoints.

[YarkoL]

Checkpoints are not always centralized. Nxt uses a system where each client sets his own rolling checkpoint 720 blocks in the past.

isn't NXT block generation
time about one in a minute? Then if something went wrong
and 12 hours went by with two or more competing chains,
you'd have a set of hard-coded forks. Or is there some
additional mechanism to prevent that?

[TwinWinNerD]

NXT is centralized. There is no need for centralized checkpoints.

What is the central authority you speak of?

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

NXT is centralized. There is no need for centralized checkpoints.

What is the central authority you speak of?

[Biomech]

Not being a programmer, I could be totally wrong here, but I thought that in many coins with checkpointing, it's simply a flag set in the blockchain every so often. I know that peercoin used central checkpointing for a while, but then dropped it in favor of a revised system that depended on live nodes rather than any central checkpointing mechanism. Am I wrong in this?

As for NXT, other than being a cast iron bitch to set up a NXT daemon, I have no opinion on it.

[jones_]

Not being a programmer, I could be totally wrong here, but I thought that in many coins with checkpointing, it's simply a flag set in the blockchain every so often. I know that peercoin used central checkpointing for a while, but then dropped it in favor of a revised system that depended on live nodes rather than any central checkpointing mechanism. Am I wrong in this?

As for NXT, other than being a cast iron bitch to set up a NXT daemon, I have no opinion on it.

checkpointing a cryptocurrency is believed to be centralized because for the checkpoint to have any effect (different than what the normal consensus would have come up with) it would have to be created by a group of people other than the original consensus group, most of the time this is the developers, so the coin with checkpoints would be centralized around the group of developers.

a good resource: links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf (newbie here so probably wont show up)

[cynicSOB]

Split/combine threshold at 200,000 coins at 10 days

wtf is this? are you restricting splitting coins? this restricts valid use cases of a currency...

By the way you describe your attack, the result would cause financial detriment to you since you would be paying tens of thousands in fees but Stakers would also get all those Coins plus 10% more!.

why pay a lot in fees? the splitting is done in only one transaction. PPC destroys fees, they don't go to the stakers, but others do distribute the fees...

[cynicSOB]

NXT is centralized. There is no need for centralized checkpoints.

What is the central authority you speak of?

he may be referring to the initial distribution of the coins...


NXT's checkpointing is a nice idea that prevents "long range attacks" or "n@s-style history rewrites". But of course it has the risk of splitting the network and it won't help against this short-range attack.

[Biomech]

Not being a programmer, I could be totally wrong here, but I thought that in many coins with checkpointing, it's simply a flag set in the blockchain every so often. I know that peercoin used central checkpointing for a while, but then dropped it in favor of a revised system that depended on live nodes rather than any central checkpointing mechanism. Am I wrong in this?

As for NXT, other than being a cast iron bitch to set up a NXT daemon, I have no opinion on it.

checkpointing a cryptocurrency is believed to be centralized because for the checkpoint to have any effect (different than what the normal consensus would have come up with) it would have to be created by a group of people other than the original consensus group, most of the time this is the developers, so the coin with checkpoints would be centralized around the group of developers.

a good resource: links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf (newbie here so probably wont show up)

Thanks, I'll check that out. My knowledge continues to evolve due to people like you

[Rent_a_Ray]

The alert system, the github account and the checkpoint system is centralized and controlled by a few people.
Alert/Checkpointing was the idea of SN (Szabono Nickoshi) - that guy who was premining 1M of his coins. Please tell me, what makes Bitcoin/Altcoin decentralized under these circumstances?
It's like democracy - a big lie.

Cheers

[allwelder]

Welcome to have a try attack to NXT.

[achimsmile]

But of course it has the risk of splitting the network and it won't help against this short-range attack.

I hereby pledge 20k Nxt if you can pull off your attack on the Nxt testnet.

Conditions:

You get 10% of all testnxt
at least 30% of all testnxt has to be forging during your attack
Reorg must be 20 blocks or more
Reorg has to be verified by multiple parties

Please post here for testnxt: https://nxtforum.org/testnet/some-testnxt-to-test-asset-exchange

[Crestington]

Split/combine threshold at 200,000 coins at 10 days

wtf is this? are you restricting splitting coins? this restricts valid use cases of a currency...

By the way you describe your attack, the result would cause financial detriment to you since you would be paying tens of thousands in fees but Stakers would also get all those Coins plus 10% more!.

why pay a lot in fees? the splitting is done in only one transaction. PPC destroys fees, they don't go to the stakers, but others do distribute the fees...

Too much splitting of Coins causes a very large amount of Bloat, this restricts the lower end of blocks being split so your reward is always more than the cost to combine.

Coins shouldn't be destroyed in transactions because that restricts the amount of active Coins in circulation

[DoM P]

I haven't read the whole thread, and I have a question that may already be answered before:
Has cynicSOB, the creator of this thread, been able to prove a PoS currency can be attacked by actually doing so, or is this whole thread another joke from a wannabe hacker?

[LiQio]

@DoM P:
APEX coin seems to have been the victim.
Attack confirmed by bittrex: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=686403.msg10169983#msg10169983

[iCEBREAKER]

Please don't attack DMD.

I just unvested $10,000 in this sweet deal, which is totally legit:

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I am not a Registered Investment Advisor, Broker/Dealer, Financial Analyst, Financial Bank, Securities Broker or Financial Planner. The Information is provided for information purposes only. The Information is not intended to be and does not constitute financial advice or any other advice, is general in nature and not specific to you. Before using this information to make an investment decision, you should seek the advice of a qualified and registered securities professional and undertake your own due diligence. None of the information is intended as investment advice, as an offer or solicitation of an offer to buy or sell, or as a recommendation, endorsement, or sponsorship of any security, Company, or fund. DMD Diamond is not a regulated investment vehicle. DMD Diamond, like all crypto currencies, is experimental in nature and should be considered and treated with appropriate caution. There is no central point of control or representative entity, DMD Diamond is a distributed decentralized peer-to-peer currency and commodity. Consult a licensed professional financial advisor before making any investment decisions. I am not responsible for any investment decision made by you. You are responsible for your own investment research and investment decisions.

[Crestington]

Actually I have seen DMD around and have poked through their Github a few times over the last few months. I noticed that they have been doing work on their code quite regularly and I think I remember seeing them doing a couple promotional things earlier on as well, some celebration of Block halving and some statistics. I don't think I've seen anything negative about DMD and they've been around for like 8-9 months, mostly low-key stuff. Looks like interest is starting to pick up around DMD, maybe it's a "Diamond in The Rough"?

Please don't attack DMD.

I just unvested $10,000 in this sweet deal, which is totally legit: