ANTMINER S5: 1155GH(+OverClock Potential), In Stock $0.319/GH & 0.51W/GH

[TheAnalogKid]

are these really that much better than an s4 when you factor in the fact you have to hunt for a PSU ?

They can be, especially if you either have 220 power and can use the 2000+ watt server style PSU's, or you are upgrading from s1/s3 where you already had them deployed.

I use the DPS-2000 PSU's, they're more efficient than what you can find on the s4, and I can power 3 over clocked s5's on one PSU with no issue.

[Marvell1]

What a load of nonsense! Absolute rubbish!
A PSU is a mining cost whichever way you look at it, I mean, they are not free. <snip>.

Yes because of long useful life a PSU can be consider as depreciating over a longer period of time but - at $20-40usd for the HP 1200w ones and only ~$35 for the IBM 2kw ones their cost is insignificant compared to miner cost.

Its quite a bit more than that, you probably need a break out board and how about the 8 - 6 pin cables you need since most miners use PCI-E cables.  I think you are sugar coating this quite a bit.

Plus PSU's fail when run 24-7 at the power usage we do when mining at the rates we do.    I had 3 fail just last year alone.  Now the only ones I FK with are the g2 SprNovas by EVGA since they honor the 10 year waranty

[Marvell1]

What a load of nonsense! Absolute rubbish!
A PSU is a mining cost whichever way you look at it, I mean, they are not free. <snip>.

Yes because of long useful life a PSU can be consider as depreciating over a longer period of time but - at $20-40usd for the HP 1200w ones and only ~$35 for the IBM 2kw ones their cost is insignificant compared to miner cost.

Its quite a bit more than that, you probably need a break out board and how about the 8 - 6 pin cables you need since most miners use PCI-E cables.  I think you are sugar coating this quite a bit.

Plus PSU's fail when run 24-7 at the power usage we do when mining at the rates we do.    I had 3 fail just last year alone.  Now the only ones I FK with are the g2 SprNovas by EVGA since they honor the 10 year waranty

That being said I will probably look to order one at some point since I do have dual 240V power but its all in one spot (basement) I cant imagine all that heat in one place from my 5 s4's and 3 sp30s 

I need to find a way to do a dual wiring thing rather than 30A extention cords since thos cost so much

[soy]

I'm seeing reference to a S3++.  Would this be an air cooled C1?  Heat a problem?

[sidehack]

No, it was a test design string miner with BM1382 chips.

[dogie]

A less crappy pricing model, at least for the upperbound, is "how much does this cost to make? Let's add a bit of margin so we can keep the lights on and pay someone to design new stuff" instead of "how much does this cost to make? How much profit can we possibly wrangle from our customer base before they refuse to buy any more?" I don't have the nards to look my customers in the eyes while adding an extra 30% profit margin onto my products just because they have nowhere else to buy from. I think that's called "abuse".

It works both ways though, no one complains if/when Bitmain sells at a loss when conditions are bad.

[ScryptAsic]

A less crappy pricing model, at least for the upperbound, is "how much does this cost to make? Let's add a bit of margin so we can keep the lights on and pay someone to design new stuff" instead of "how much does this cost to make? How much profit can we possibly wrangle from our customer base before they refuse to buy any more?" I don't have the nards to look my customers in the eyes while adding an extra 30% profit margin onto my products just because they have nowhere else to buy from. I think that's called "abuse".

It works both ways though, no one complains if/when Bitmain sells at a loss when conditions are bad.

I thought that the customer was always right? 

[sidehack]

When have conditions been bad enough for Bitmain to sell at a loss? They're usually the ones working hard to undercut everyone else and drive their prices down. Bitmain has always been an instigator in race-to-the-bottom price wars.

Additionallly, if they have to sell at a loss, why would they sell at all? For one, it's stupid. For two, shelf it in one of their massive data centers and self-mine on it.

[dogie]

Additionallly, if they have to sell at a loss, why would they sell at all? For one, it's stupid. For two, shelf it in one of their massive data centers and self-mine on it.

For all the things they get accused of being, even when it costs them money they're willing to support the market and consumers. What I was commenting on is its disingenuous to bash them when prices go up because they also go down. You don't have to buy and no one is making you.

[Meech]

Uh ya duh!  It's like Starbuck's asking you to bring your own cup and foam is extra.  They make plenty even when the prices are low/competetive.  We are not here to support their own farms.  They need to remember who it is that makes them suceed and why.  The why is that they didn't inflate prices for awhile and that was mainly due to stiff competition.  No direct competition and we get F'd.  Anyways, can I get a test rig? 

[HolgerDansk]

On that snippit Doggie spot on. I'm still using the same HP server psu's that I used to run my now retired S1's on, now they run the s3's and in 2 of them together, 3 s5's. So yes, it *is* a one time cost but they live on and on through the generations of miners.

I'm betting my 750 watt supplies that powered my S3's & now S5's, won't likely power any future miners.  The single 400watt supply I also got for one of my S3's is already useless.

I now know better for my next psu purchase, thanks to those on this forum, to get a 2000+ watt psu.

[Mikestang]

S3++ would make a good case for bitmain to consider shipping just boards .... even upgrade kits for the S1 doorstops still out there!

This would be a dream come true!

[Mikestang]

I'm seeing reference to a S3++.  Would this be an air cooled C1?  Heat a problem?

The C1 is a liquid cooled S4 variant, different line.

[HolgerDansk]

its disingenuous to bash them when prices go up because they also go down.

I agree with you.  If the price goes up, it just is.

The problem is how it was done.  Bitmain made multiple poor choices today.

If they wanted to increase the price, after the holiday break they simply needed to open sales again at the $419.  There would have been grousing here, but it would be short lived.

The problem THEY created was by opening sales back up at $320, THEN jumping the price, and then increasing the price AGAIN, all in the same day.  If they would have increased the prices in stages over the coming weeks, it would have been a bit more tolerated.

The extra fuel to this fire today, is they even told us here, that they did it because they just found out another manufacturer isn't going to deliver any mining product shortly!  Not because the costs of goods increased.  Not because any costs increased.

How about this:
The price of gas at the pump changes.  It's a fact of life.  Would you not scream foul, if while you were pumping the gas, they increased the price of the gas you're putting in your car?  Wouldn't you scream bloody foul, if that increase was 20%?

Now the same analogy, if on your way to work one morning, you notice that your favorite petrol station just opened up after being closed for 3 weeks and you think to yourself, you should fill the 30 gallon tank of your big truck (ant farm) on the way home.  Then during lunch, one of your workmates tell you that your same favorite station just increased the gas prices by 20%!  Wouldn't you scream bloody foul?  Oh then, on your way home, you stop to fill your tank anyway, only to find out that the price made another increase - a total of more than 30% from what it was in the morning.

So then you decide to go inside the gas station and ask, why the huge increase.  The guy just gives you a bunch of smiley faces, as you pose ideas as to why.  Then finally the man tells you, he just found out that the other gas stations in the area, won't be able sell during the next few months and that is why he raised the price so vigorously through the day.

Do you think it would be disingenuous to be extremely upset with your favorite gas station, that you've supported for a relatively long time?

Bitmain has a lot of repairing to do.  They not only bit the hands that feed them, they slapped the golden goose (the one that supported them while they've wonderfully improved their products, to finally get them something they felt was good enough to now build their own mega-farm).  Based on their history of good products, I hope they do see the wisdom in making some huge steps in customer relations reparation.

It is their right to price as they choose.  It is their right to do it, exactly as they did today.  Just as it is our right to scream bloody hell about it.

As the day has wore on about this pricing event today, the business owner in me has been trying hard to cut them some slack.  I also have a pretty good BS meter.   Processing through the logic of facts as I  wrote this post, it is now very clear to me, that they really messed up today, in a lot of ways.  The multiple price changes in a single day, is a lot more than just a slap in the face.  Their explanation is even more abhorrent.  The switch to pre-orders is also a big change (even if it is not labeled a pre-order).  Even the comment about not selling S3++ except locally, is a slam.  If they think they're going to sell out of the increased price S5's, why not sell the S++?  Let the sales tell them if it is too high of a price.

Dogie, if you do work for Bitmain, you won't be able to publicly accept this.  If you don't work for Bitmain, please take a long pause and think about it all and you should realize that they just told us all to sod off.  I just realized it while writing this, so slowly on my iPad. (Lots of time to think about it, nearly an hour).

I bought S5's in January at $319 each.  A week+ later, they made a (single) price increase to $370.  There was weeping & wailing here, but not like today.  Not to mention the logic was finally made, the price of BTC was down, so the price needed to go up for them to cover their costs.  Hmmm, today BTC is about 50% higher than when the price in January went to $370.  Shouldn't that logic say, that with the price of BTC today the miner price should be lower?  Oh wait, they did do that, when they opened at the lower $320 price today.  

They figured the same thing, until that magic intelligence came in that told them that now they can charge whatever they want.

And they did.  

[dogie]

If they wanted to increase the price, after the holiday break they simply needed to open sales again at the $419.  There would have been grousing here, but it would be short lived.

I don't disagree with you, my personal approach would have been to give 24 hours notice to a rise so people can make up their minds.

The price of gas at the pump changes.

That analogy doesn't really work out, you have to buy gas. You don't have to buy bitcoin miners, and there are plenty of other manufacturers out there you can purchase from if that's what you chose.

Then finally the man tells you, he just found out that the other gas stations in the area, won't be able sell during the next few months and that is why he raised the price so vigorously through the day.

That's exactly how it works, even using your example. For some reason in the UK we've historically had a lot of fuel strikes where truck drivers blockade the refineries so stations run dry. In response, the stations put a volume limit per person and jack up the price. Are we supposed to blame them for that?

The switch to pre-orders is also a big change (even if it is not labeled a pre-order).

I don't like it any more than you, but there is a good reason for that particular batch. There are a lot of farms revving up in the next few months who can't yet take hardware but want to reserve hardware. Using that batch and the new part payment system they can pay a deposit and reserve capacity into the future. Its not easy for these farms to walk around and pull 1000 units off the shelf of a manufacturer.

Even the comment about not selling S3++ except locally, is a slam.  If they think they're going to sell out of the increased price S5's, why not sell the S++? Let the sales tell them if it is too high of a price.

S3++s don't work internationally because they're low density units, making shipping costs just silly. People already go crazy about S5 shipping costs, imagine it 2x worse. The fact that we're having this conversation about S5 price in the first place should explain why its not even worth talking about S3++ internationally. That doesn't mean a reseller or someone who can take them via land locallyish or is willing to wait for sea can't get them.

Dogie, if you do work for Bitmain, you won't be able to publicly accept this.  If you don't work for Bitmain, please take a long pause and think about it all and you should realize that they just told us all to sod off.

I am free to do what I want, very free. I don't even wear a collar most days. You can ask me the same questions in one of my own threads and you'll get exactly the same response.

I just realized it while writing this, so slowly on my iPad. (Lots of time to think about it, nearly an hour).

I appreciate you taking the time to voice your concerns.

[Subw]

There are a lot of farms revving up in the next few months

As I understand Bitmain jacked prices but (sort of) guaranteed us the diff would not rise in the coming months giving a (small) chance to ROI S5s and now you tell us lots of diff increase is incoming from the... Bitmain! You should work your story better Dogie

[dogie]

There are a lot of farms revving up in the next few months

As I understand Bitmain jacked prices but (sort of) guaranteed us the diff would not rise in the coming months giving a (small) chance to ROI S5s and now you tell us lots of diff increase is incoming from the... Bitmain! You should work your story better Dogie

I can't help if you're not going to read what I or Bitmain post. There are many farms that are a few months away from deploying. Once those few months are up, they will accept hardware. Today they need to reserve that hardware, but that hardware will not exist for several months.

[chiguireitor]

FWIW, the previous low price just made Bitmain run dry in a whim and lots of jacked S5 appeared on Ebay and Amazon. That doesn't makes sense from a manufacturer standpoint (i'm a software "manufacturer" and i've lived this on my own).

Now, bear with me and put on your big money hat, let's imagine that we have a HUGE miner fab.

What a manufacturer does when this happens? Jack up the price to shape demand. Too much demand at low price and you risk undercutting yourself, driving you out of business via increased customer support costs. Too little demand and you risk going out of business because you go broke.

In the case of Bitmain, the miner space is super competitive. There's no sense on being a softy when your customers are greedy and just want to ROI on 6 months or less. Most (almost all) businesses have multi-year ROIs. The miner business is the only one that just happens to be picky about this issue. What do you think is Bitmain's own ROI? Are you so entitled as to justify a shorter ROI than the manufacturer?

In any case, the PR skills from Bitmain are shitty, but the current price is still manageable, it just happens that your own electricity costs aren't suited for it: Blame your utility provider, not Bitmain. I myself am buying more miners as soon as i can, even with the current price, because my electricity price is ultra low, guess that has to do with it being all-green hydro power, etc.

[raskul]

marketing is everything 

[coinits]

Uh ya duh!  It's like Starbuck's asking you to bring your own cup and foam is extra.  They make plenty even when the prices are low/competetive.  We are not here to support their own farms.  They need to remember who it is that makes them suceed and why.  The why is that they didn't inflate prices for awhile and that was mainly due to stiff competition.  No direct competition and we get F'd.  Anyways, can I get a test rig? 

Same here. I will take 20 test rigs please. I will put a couple giant Bitmain Antminer S5 stickers on my truck and drive it around town advertising. Yep. I will. Troof!