BFL returned money for preorder (ASIC minirig - 30.000$) [solved]

[Barracuda]

June 26 i bought (preorder) SC minirig for - 4791.0384BTC (including transaction fee of 1.1BTC). I kept QR code and all other information regarding my order. #2200.

Currently i have very difficult situation in my life. I have to cancel my order and ask you for refund. I alreday wrote you a letter to your e-mail account but no any response received. I have to ask again in public.

Can proove my order and fact of payment to administration and to BFL also. BitPay ready to confirm my payment. I already talked with Tony.

I'm even ready to loose some money because of this situation. But i need only refund i quit the mining.

Waiting for response.

Best regards

[1715685751]

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[ice_chill]

What is the life situation that has arrised ?

[psilan]

Sell your order to someone for a discount. I'm sure BFL can assist to move to order to a new person.

[Barracuda]

What is the life situation that has arrised ?

Personal problems.

Sell your order to someone for a discount. I'm sure BFL can assist to move to order to a new person.

I prefer to get less money from seller than resell order to someone...

[BFL]

June 26 i bought SC minirig for - 4791.0384BTC (including transaction fee of 1.1BTC). I kept QR code and all other information regarding my order. #2200.

Currently i have very difficult situation in my life. I have to cancel my order and ask you for refund. I alreday wrote you a letter to your e-mail account but no any response received. I have to ask again in public.

Can proove my order and fact of payment to administration and to BFL also. BitPay ready to confirm my payment. I already talked with Tony.

I'm even ready to loose some money because of this situation. But i need only refund i quit the mining.

Waiting for response.

Best regards

Hi Barracuda, we'll process a refund on this order as you request.  Please stand by for processing by customer service. 

[Barracuda]

June 26 i bought SC minirig for - 4791.0384BTC (including transaction fee of 1.1BTC). I kept QR code and all other information regarding my order. #2200.

Currently i have very difficult situation in my life. I have to cancel my order and ask you for refund. I alreday wrote you a letter to your e-mail account but no any response received. I have to ask again in public.

Can proove my order and fact of payment to administration and to BFL also. BitPay ready to confirm my payment. I already talked with Tony.

I'm even ready to loose some money because of this situation. But i need only refund i quit the mining.

Waiting for response.

Best regards

Hi Barracuda, we'll process a refund on this order as you request.  Please stand by for processing by customer service. 

How many time will it take? Who and how will contact me? I left my cell phone # with my order also.

[crazyates]

I really don't want to see this forum become the place where everyone who sent them an email and didn't get a response in 10 minutes comes and publicly calls them out just so their situation can be fixed. This seems to happen all the time, and in almost every single BFL thread. They have a submission form on their website, and its always worked for me (tho it might take a day or two).

[Dargo]

I really don't want to see this forum become the place where everyone who sent them an email and didn't get a response in 10 minutes comes and publicly calls them out just so their situation can be fixed. This seems to happen all the time, and in almost every single BFL thread. They have a submission form on their website, and its always worked for me (tho it might take a day or two).

+1 it would be nice if people could give normal BFL customer service channels a chance first. But the OP's situation could be exceptional, depending on what it is exactly.

[AndrewBUD]

I really don't want to see this forum become the place where everyone who sent them an email and didn't get a response in 10 minutes comes and publicly calls them out just so their situation can be fixed. This seems to happen all the time, and in almost every single BFL thread. They have a submission form on their website, and its always worked for me (tho it might take a day or two).

+1 it would be nice if people could give normal BFL customer service channels a chance first. But the OP's situation could be exceptional, depending on what it is exactly.

I would say it depends on the situation.... If something came up and shit went tits up,,, I personally would be doing everythihng possible to get back 4791.0384BTC..... <---- that's a handful of satoshi's

[crazyates]

I alreday wrote you a letter to your e-mail account but no any response received. I have to ask again in public.

How long did you wait between contacting them, and posting on here? Also, did you email them, or use the submission form on their website?

[somenick]

they dont reply on email ~ 2 weeks
why ? 

[jjshabadoo]

Because they have never heard of a temp agency...lol

[Paladin69]

Because they have never heard of a temp agency...lol

lol

[Paladin69]

I really don't want to see this forum become the place where everyone who sent them an email and didn't get a response in 10 minutes comes and publicly calls them out just so their situation can be fixed. This seems to happen all the time, and in almost every single BFL thread. They have a submission form on their website, and its always worked for me (tho it might take a day or two).

It has taken them 3 weeks to respond to my first e-mail.  My second e-mail asking for a refund on my 4 singles has yet to be returned.  That was a week and a half ago.

Whenever refunds are involved, they oddly take forever to respond.

[aTg]

Is there no email and customer care service of BFL for this stuff?
Because I have to read this shit in the public forum? Perhaps for that to be public if you do, and who only care about the public opion and continue to collect pre-orders?

[Barracuda]

June 26 i bought SC minirig for - 4791.0384BTC (including transaction fee of 1.1BTC). I kept QR code and all other information regarding my order. #2200.

Currently i have very difficult situation in my life. I have to cancel my order and ask you for refund. I alreday wrote you a letter to your e-mail account but no any response received. I have to ask again in public.

Can proove my order and fact of payment to administration and to BFL also. BitPay ready to confirm my payment. I already talked with Tony.

I'm even ready to loose some money because of this situation. But i need only refund i quit the mining.

Waiting for response.

Best regards

Hi Barracuda, we'll process a refund on this order as you request.  Please stand by for processing by customer service. 

And again the same...

I understand that You r pretty busy guys, but it's not serious to ignore Your clients, especially with refunds, it shows Your reputation as a seller. I have not received any call nor e-mail from You...

[Dexter770221]

From June 26 BTC price have increase 1$. So you loose 4700$. I would like to get it back too....

[ice_chill]

From June 26 BTC price have increase 1$. So you loose 4700$. I would like to get it back too....

But then you lose your line in queue and lose more money when the Rig starts shipping 

[Barracuda]

BFL, you solved the problem in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92697.0
In 1 day!!!

What's the problem to make a refund?! How many time to wait?! Stop ignoring my request and return the money!!!

[MXRider]

This is for everyone making these threads

INVEST ONLY THE AMOUNT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE!!!

I'm sick of these threads where people are crying about their orders. There are plenty of buyers out there. Shipping ready products and developing ASIC is more important to BFL than processing refunds.

[P_Shep]

Also getting tired of these threads.

[rjk]

Also getting tired of these threads.

+1

[despoiler]

I'm failing to see why BFL has to refund your order because you have personal issues. 

[ice_chill]

Would you agree on a cash refund based on $30000 original value while BFL keeps the money that the coins have raised over time, or do you want Bitcoins refund, so you can benefit from the rise ?

[Dargo]

The issue at this point isn't whether BFL should grant a refund, since they have already promised to do this. They weren't obligated to give the refund in the first place though since they clearly explained that purchases are not, as a rule, refundable except in case they fail to perform. Given this, I think the OP doesn't have the right to a speedy refund. Still, it would be nice of BFL to process the refund as soon as they reasonably can. And, in spite of the delay, they may essentially be processing the refund about as quickly as they can, given all the other things they need to juggle right now. So, yeah, I agree it's a bit much for the OP to be moaning as though some great injustice is being done.

[MXRider]

Would you agree on a cash refund based on $30000 original value while BFL keeps the money that the coins have raised over time, or do you want Bitcoins refund, so you can benefit from the rise ?

Asking for a BTC refund is outrageous. I'm pretty sure he wants 30k$ back. I don't think personal matters can be solved with bitcoins

OP deserves his refund because BFL promised it but I don't want BFL spending time refunding everyone. I want them working on ASIC!

[Ente]

You guys must be kidding!
BFL promised a refund, but plays dead man for weeks?
Waiting for 30k$? "Baww thread"? Seriously?

For me, the (non-) performing of BFL is a(nother) red flag.

There is way too much money in the game for my taste (2k paid preorders? Non-refundable?). I don't say BFL is doing anything sinister. But I, personally, don't see enough reason and security to trust them with substantial money at these conditions, and with these experiences users are having..

YMMV

Ente

[Dargo]

You guys must be kidding!
BFL promised a refund, but plays dead man for weeks?
Waiting for 30k$? "Baww thread"? Seriously?

For me, the (non-) performing of BFL is a(nother) red flag.

There is way too much money in the game for my taste (2k paid preorders? Non-refundable?). I don't say BFL is doing anything sinister. But I, personally, don't see enough reason and security to trust them with substantial money at these conditions, and with these experiences users are having..

YMMV

Ente

It hasn't even been quite 4 working days since BFL agreed to the refund, so they have not played dead man for weeks.

[crazyates]

I'm already starting to miss the "ASICS ARE GOING TO KILL BITCOIN" threads..

[ice_chill]

You guys must be kidding!
BFL promised a refund, but plays dead man for weeks?
Waiting for 30k$? "Baww thread"? Seriously?

For me, the (non-) performing of BFL is a(nother) red flag.

There is way too much money in the game for my taste (2k paid preorders? Non-refundable?). I don't say BFL is doing anything sinister. But I, personally, don't see enough reason and security to trust them with substantial money at these conditions, and with these experiences users are having..

YMMV

Ente

No red flag because it was not any different with Singles and Minirig FPGA orders, and they delivered.

[kibblesnbits]

I'm failing to see why BFL has to refund your order because you have personal issues. 

Right.  Can you imagine doing this with a $15,000 car purchase?

[AndrewBUD]

I'm failing to see why BFL has to refund your order because you have personal issues. 

Right.  Can you imagine doing this with a $15,000 car purchase?

Could you imagine prepaying 100% of a car and getting it in six months? and it might perform like a car

[Sant001]

When BTC prices rises buyers have an incentive to ask for refunds.

I'm not saying it was the case specifically of this buyer or any other in this forum.

Perhaps sellers could explicitly say on their sites or point of sale, that any refund would be processed in USD or the local fiat currency as a way to remove this incentive.

And then the seller might sell his BTC for fiat or keep it at his own risk for gain or loss.

That could be a way to avoid some refund claims in a scenario of a rising BTC.

[kibblesnbits]

I'm failing to see why BFL has to refund your order because you have personal issues.  

Right.  Can you imagine doing this with a $15,000 car purchase?

Could you imagine prepaying 100% of a car and getting it in six months? and it might perform like a car

Ok, so maybe not a $15k car... Add a couple hundred thousand (and six months)
http://www.imaginelifestyles.com/luxuryliving/2011/01/top-10-luxury-cars-longest-waiting-lists-and-highest-prices

[Barracuda]

Would you agree on a cash refund based on $30000 original value while BFL keeps the money that the coins have raised over time, or do you want Bitcoins refund, so you can benefit from the rise ?

Of course yes. I'm not asking to return the same amount of BTC I sent them. Recalculate with current price of BTC.

[wildemagic]

I'm not asking to return the same amount of BTC I sent them.

You should ask for the same BTC back, you paid in BTC not USD, so 1BTC=1BTC

kind regards

[dave3]

I'm pretty sure the payment processor BFL is using (BitPay) sends BFL USD, not bitcoins.  So if there's a refund, it would make sense that it would be based on USD.

[Barracuda]

I'm not asking to return the same amount of BTC I sent them.

You should ask for the same BTC back, you paid in BTC not USD, so 1BTC=1BTC

kind regards

I think they will not return same ammount of BTC. If they will, it would be honest. Honestly, ammount for refund should be calculated from the date they confirmed refund. Anyway, nobody from BFL want to solve it or return the money...

[MXRider]

I'm not asking to return the same amount of BTC I sent them.

You should ask for the same BTC back, you paid in BTC not USD, so 1BTC=1BTC

kind regards

You are not serious? The price of ASIC minirig is 30 000 DOLLARS not 4xxxBTC. We just used BTC to pay for it. BFL can convert BTC to USD or speculate and keep the BTC. If someone wants a refund and BFL is nice enough to give it, they will refund 30 000 USD. BFL takes the risk if they hold on to BTC and that's why they get the reward if and when BTC price goes up.

[psilan]

So if he paid USD and it went the other way they should pay him in BTC?

[sadpandatech]

So if he paid USD and it went the other way they should pay him in BTC?

No, of course not. Some of the previous posters are mistaken about how BFL received funds. BFL used a payment processor who converted the BTC for each order and deposited the sale amount in USD to BFL's bank.

I'm also fairly certain that the OP made no mention of wanting a jacked up amount in return. Just his 30k...

cheers

[psilan]

Ah I see. I wasn't aware about the conversion. Thanks.

[Barracuda]

I just want to receive 30.000$ + shipping cost i paid in BTC. Conversion $ -> BTC will be calculated by BFL. Will it be the rate on the date of refund confirmation or not it's up to them.

[||bit]

I just want to receive 30.000$ + shipping cost i paid in BTC. Conversion $ -> BTC will be calculated by BFL. Will it be the rate on the date of refund confirmation or not it's up to them.

The rate at the date of purchase is not relevant. It's not an expense report... it's a full refund:

If you paid them $30,000...then you should get $30,000 refunded.
If you paid them 5,000 BTC...then you should get 5,000 BTC refunded.
If you paid them 10,000 clam shells... then you should get 10,000 clam shells refunded.
....etc....

||bit

[rjk]

I just want to receive 30.000$ + shipping cost i paid in BTC. Conversion $ -> BTC will be calculated by BFL. Will it be the rate on the date of refund confirmation or not it's up to them.

The rate at the date of purchase is not relevant. It's not an expense report... it's a full refund:

If you paid them $30,000...then you should get $30,000 refunded.
If you paid them 5,000 BTC...then you should get 5,000 BTC refunded.
If you paid them 10,000 clam shells... then you should get 10,000 clam shells refunded.
....etc....

||bit

Sorry dude, that's not how it works in the real world.

[||bit]

I just want to receive 30.000$ + shipping cost i paid in BTC. Conversion $ -> BTC will be calculated by BFL. Will it be the rate on the date of refund confirmation or not it's up to them.

The rate at the date of purchase is not relevant. It's not an expense report... it's a full refund:

If you paid them $30,000...then you should get $30,000 refunded.
If you paid them 5,000 BTC...then you should get 5,000 BTC refunded.
If you paid them 10,000 clam shells... then you should get 10,000 clam shells refunded.
....etc....

||bit

Sorry dude, that's not how it works in the real world.

How does it work? Every time I've ever returned a product, I get back (to the penny) what I paid. Unless there are shipping costs or bank fee's.

[LATE EDIT: On second thought. I haven't done any oversea's ordering that I can recall. So, I'm not as familiiar with the nuances of it, and don't wnat to think about it anymore right now.
I've been up all night... my brain feels like a soup sandwich.]

||bit

[MXRider]

BFL doesn't have bitcoins and that's why they will refund 30k$. That happens to be exactly what he paid.

[rjk]

I just want to receive 30.000$ + shipping cost i paid in BTC. Conversion $ -> BTC will be calculated by BFL. Will it be the rate on the date of refund confirmation or not it's up to them.

The rate at the date of purchase is not relevant. It's not an expense report... it's a full refund:

If you paid them $30,000...then you should get $30,000 refunded.
If you paid them 5,000 BTC...then you should get 5,000 BTC refunded.
If you paid them 10,000 clam shells... then you should get 10,000 clam shells refunded.
....etc....

||bit

Sorry dude, that's not how it works in the real world.

How does it work? Every time I've ever returned a product, I get back (to the penny) what I paid. Unless there are shipping costs or bank fee's.

||bit

Yes, but how often have you been dealing with multiple currencies in the same way? If I used my USD PayPal to pay someone in GBP for something, and then got it refunded, PayPal isn't going to refund the exact USD amount, especially if the exchange rate has changed between the purchase date and the refund date. Ignoring fees of course.

[ice_chill]

I just want to receive 30.000$ + shipping cost i paid in BTC. Conversion $ -> BTC will be calculated by BFL. Will it be the rate on the date of refund confirmation or not it's up to them.

The rate at the date of purchase is not relevant. It's not an expense report... it's a full refund:

If you paid them $30,000...then you should get $30,000 refunded.
If you paid them 5,000 BTC...then you should get 5,000 BTC refunded.
If you paid them 10,000 clam shells... then you should get 10,000 clam shells refunded.
....etc....

||bit

Sorry dude, that's not how it works in the real world.

How does it work? Every time I've ever returned a product, I get back (to the penny) what I paid. Unless there are shipping costs or bank fee's.

||bit

Yes, but how often have you been dealing with multiple currencies in the same way? If I used my USD PayPal to pay someone in GBP for something, and then got it refunded, PayPal isn't going to refund the exact USD amount, especially if the exchange rate has changed between the purchase date and the refund date. Ignoring fees of course.

I agree, BFL should not stand to lose on the BTC rise.

[pieppiep]

If I buy something with paypal for $20, I pay paypal with 16 euro.
If I cancel it, the company will pay me $20 on my paypal.
If the value of the euro dropped a little, I get 15 euro on my paypal account.
That's how it works.

If you pay via bitpay with BTC, the company doesn't see BTC just like it doesn't see my euro.
If bitpay keeps 10% (probably less, I don't know their terms) of the transaction value and you pay and get a refund via bitpay, you only have 81% of your initial payment.
If the value of a currency rises or lowers it can be different.

I don't see why BFL should compensate for that.

[||bit]

I just want to receive 30.000$ + shipping cost i paid in BTC. Conversion $ -> BTC will be calculated by BFL. Will it be the rate on the date of refund confirmation or not it's up to them.

The rate at the date of purchase is not relevant. It's not an expense report... it's a full refund:

If you paid them $30,000...then you should get $30,000 refunded.
If you paid them 5,000 BTC...then you should get 5,000 BTC refunded.
If you paid them 10,000 clam shells... then you should get 10,000 clam shells refunded.
....etc....

||bit

Sorry dude, that's not how it works in the real world.

How does it work? Every time I've ever returned a product, I get back (to the penny) what I paid. Unless there are shipping costs or bank fee's.

||bit

Yes, but how often have you been dealing with multiple currencies in the same way? If I used my USD PayPal to pay someone in GBP for something, and then got it refunded, PayPal isn't going to refund the exact USD amount, especially if the exchange rate has changed between the purchase date and the refund date. Ignoring fees of course.

Yeah, I kinda thought something like that already and amended my comment. However, we are not talking PayPal (yet). BFL is taking wired funds and BTC. And I doubt they already exchanged all the preorder BTC for local currency...or whatever currency they are going to need to buy materials (or tickets to the Cayman Islands?).

[crazyates]

Yeah, I kinda thought something like that already and amended my comment. However, we are not talking PayPal (yet). BFL is taking wired funds and BTC. And I doubt they already exchanged all the preorder BTC for local currency...or whatever currency they are going to need to buy materials (or tickets to the Cayman Islands?).

Actually they do. When you buy thru Bitpay, Bitpay takes the BTC and gives BFL USD. BFL never actually touches the BTC.

[||bit]

Yeah, I kinda thought something like that already and amended my comment. However, we are not talking PayPal (yet). BFL is taking wired funds and BTC. And I doubt they already exchanged all the preorder BTC for local currency...or whatever currency they are going to need to buy materials (or tickets to the Cayman Islands?).

Actually they do. When you buy thru Bitpay, Bitpay takes the BTC and gives BFL USD. BFL never actually touches the BTC.

Then that settles any questions about it with me. Bit-pay owes him 5000BTC!  just kidding
Makes sense then to convert it to a more current rate.

||bit

[Ente]

Well, the problem is not if BFL should refund BTC or USD.
They don't refund anything, although they already promised. Barracuda wants his money back, that simple. It is not about profit or risen exchange rates, he simply wants his money back.

Ente

[sadpandatech]

Well, the problem is not if BFL should refund BTC or USD.
They don't refund anything, although they already promised. Barracuda wants his money back, that simple. It is not about profit or risen exchange rates, he simply wants his money back.

Ente

*noggles* That is the issue at hand. Being that BFL publicy stated here they would refund him it will likely happen. How long it will take them is anyones guess though.

[ice_chill]

$30k is also quite big, not the same as refunding $1k

[opentoe]

$30k is also quite big, not the same as refunding $1k

Why not?

[Barracuda]

Well, the problem is not if BFL should refund BTC or USD.
They don't refund anything, although they already promised. Barracuda wants his money back, that simple. It is not about profit or risen exchange rates, he simply wants his money back.

Ente

Exactly! Thanks for this brilliant post!

[ice_chill]

$30k is also quite big, not the same as refunding $1k

Why not?

It's to do with TAX, moving around large sums like that might look suspicious to the tax inspector. They need to figure out the right way to do it.

[Barracuda]

And what to do now? BFL doesn't return money already 10 days (from my enquiry) ... Smells like a fraud...

[ice_chill]

And what to do now? BFL doesn't return money already 10 days (from my enquiry) ... Smells like a fraud...

The company can usually take up to 14 days to return the money in Europe, especially when such large sums are involved, don't know what time frame they have in America.

[BFL]

For what it's worth to the forum community, the refund had been processed prior to Barracuda's post today and he was notified.  

If anyone is waiting for a customer service request to be processed, please have the confidence to know that you will be taken care of as we progress through the email requests.  Sending an additional email every day makes it more difficult on the CS staff.

[psilan]

You should set up an auto-reply. This will cut down on quite a few emails coming in.

[Barracuda]

For what it's worth to the forum community, the refund had been processed prior to Barracuda's post today and he was notified.  

If anyone is waiting for a customer service request to be processed, please have the confidence to know that you will be taken care of as we progress through the email requests.  Sending an additional email every day makes it more difficult on the CS staff.

Refung received.

[SkRRJyTC]

For what it's worth to the forum community, the refund had been processed prior to Barracuda's post today and he was notified.  

If anyone is waiting for a customer service request to be processed, please have the confidence to know that you will be taken care of as we progress through the email requests.  Sending an additional email every day makes it more difficult on the CS staff.

About how long is this email queue?  I sent an email to office@butterflylabs.com on 07/10/2012 and havent heard back.  Was this the correct email to send CS requests?

[testerx]

For what it's worth to the forum community, the refund had been processed prior to Barracuda's post today and he was notified.  

If anyone is waiting for a customer service request to be processed, please have the confidence to know that you will be taken care of as we progress through the email requests.  Sending an additional email every day makes it more difficult on the CS staff.

About how long is this email queue?  I sent an email to office@butterflylabs.com on 07/10/2012 and havent heard back.  Was this the correct email to send CS requests?

It took them about 2-3 days at a time when I was corresponding with them, which can be kinda nerve wracking when you're talking about sending thousands and thousands of dollars but they have eventually replied to all my e-mails to date.  And my friend (who's mines) received his single as promised last time so it's not like they're some fly by night.  Of course it could all be one very long and complex con but that's extremely unlikely, if you lose your money it's more likely that something technical gets screwed up.

[vandordeak]

For what it's worth to the forum community, the refund had been processed prior to Barracuda's post today and he was notified.  

If anyone is waiting for a customer service request to be processed, please have the confidence to know that you will be taken care of as we progress through the email requests.  Sending an additional email every day makes it more difficult on the CS staff.

About how long is this email queue?  I sent an email to office@butterflylabs.com on 07/10/2012 and havent heard back.  Was this the correct email to send CS requests?

It took them about 2-3 days at a time when I was corresponding with them, which can be kinda nerve wracking when you're talking about sending thousands and thousands of dollars but they have eventually replied to all my e-mails to date.  And my friend (who's mines) received his single as promised last time so it's not like they're some fly by night.  Of course it could all be one very long and complex con but that's extremely unlikely, if you lose your money it's more likely that something technical gets screwed up.

I contacted BFL on 24th of June by email, over 3 weeks ago and no reply yet whatsoever. I also put a post up here to get their atention but nothing. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90337.0 Very frustrating even if I  know some peolpe got responded fairly. Definintely not me......