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Author Topic: Bitcoinica MtGox account compromised  (Read 155399 times)
genjix
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July 18, 2012, 10:50:44 AM
 #561

Hi,

Sorry for the hiatus, but I had to take a break to preserve my mental sanity. Here's the update (also in the OP):

Quote
Update: here's the facts from my point of view:

- Patrick quit.
- Zhou quit.
- Tihan was fired, and no longer acting on behalf of Bitcoinica LP.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy were the new operators coming onboard, and the company was formed after the compromise to facilitate payments out.
- Bitcoinica LP is the owner.

The payments process is at a deadlock. Technically when a company is in debt, and cannot pay off its debtors in full, it hands the process to the government (called receivership). Bitcoinica LP would have to make a police report, and hand over the payments process as the owners.

That's it basically. Just a standstill.
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muyuu
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July 18, 2012, 11:06:50 AM
 #562

Update: here's the facts from my point of view:

- Patrick quit.
- Zhou quit.
- Tihan was fired, and no longer acting on behalf of Bitcoinica LP.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy were the new operators coming onboard, and the company was formed after the compromise to facilitate payments out.
- Bitcoinica LP is the owner.

The payments process is at a deadlock. Technically when a company is in debt, and cannot pay off its debtors in full, it hands the process to the government (called receivership). Bitcoinica LP would have to make a police report, and hand over the payments process as the owners.

That's it basically. Just a standstill.

Any deadlines or aprox. dates for all this to happen?

This fiasco is monopolising the news about Bitcoin.

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repentance
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July 18, 2012, 11:07:19 AM
 #563

Hi,

Sorry for the hiatus, but I had to take a break to preserve my mental sanity. Here's the update (also in the OP):

Quote
Update: here's the facts from my point of view:

- Patrick quit.
- Zhou quit.
- Tihan was fired, and no longer acting on behalf of Bitcoinica LP.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy were the new operators coming onboard, and the company was formed after the compromise to facilitate payments out.
- Bitcoinica LP is the owner.

The payments process is at a deadlock. Technically when a company is in debt, and cannot pay off its debtors in full, it hands the process to the government (called receivership). Bitcoinica LP would have to make a police report, and hand over the payments process as the owners.

That's it basically. Just a standstill.

Unless there are secured assets, you'd be looking at liquidation rather than receivership.

Quote
In a receivership assets are realised for the benefit of the secured creditor who made the appointment of a receiver.

In a liquidation the assets are realised primarily for the benefit of the unsecured creditors.

http://www.business.govt.nz/exiting/dealing-with-becoming-insolvent/receiverships-faqs/

I cannot stress how important it is for you to get professional guidance from a NZ based firm (most accountancy firms handle liquidations) as well as solid legal advice.  If you need suggestions for reputable legal and accounting firms in NZ, Patrick Hartnett would be a good person to contact.  Whether or not the Official Assignee (government liquidator) must be the initial liquidator depends on how the company enters liquidation.

http://www.business.govt.nz/exiting/dealing-with-becoming-insolvent/how-does-a-company-get-placed-into-liquidation

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
thest0ckman
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July 18, 2012, 11:54:42 AM
 #564

this is ridiculous. i just want to know when i am getting my money.

can we get one simple thread that is for just disclosing payments?


 i dont care about who is responsible for what. i just want my money and some proof people are still getting paid out.

has anyone been paid out after the latest mtgox theft?


genjix
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July 18, 2012, 12:03:42 PM
 #565

has anyone been paid out after the latest mtgox theft?

No.
Bitcoin Oz
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July 18, 2012, 12:07:07 PM
 #566

Hi,

Sorry for the hiatus, but I had to take a break to preserve my mental sanity. Here's the update (also in the OP):

Quote
Update: here's the facts from my point of view:

- Patrick quit.
- Zhou quit.
- Tihan was fired, and no longer acting on behalf of Bitcoinica LP.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy were the new operators coming onboard, and the company was formed after the compromise to facilitate payments out.
- Bitcoinica LP is the owner.

The payments process is at a deadlock. Technically when a company is in debt, and cannot pay off its debtors in full, it hands the process to the government (called receivership). Bitcoinica LP would have to make a police report, and hand over the payments process as the owners.

That's it basically. Just a standstill.

Seems like everyone walked away and left you holding the bag :/

coinft
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July 18, 2012, 12:16:41 PM
 #567

Quote
Dear Bitcoinica customers,

Allow me to offer my profuse apology for the delays and chaos. The
situation has been stressful for everyone involved. Dealing with this
challenge has been quite unlike any other situation we've dealt with
in our lives, and a real test of our characters under pressure.

Here is a short run-down of events:

- Bitcoinica was going to be handed over in a slow gradual process to
new operators under the company name Bitcoinica Consultancy.
- First compromise happened. The worst aspect being that the database was wiped.
- Tihan graciously offered his funds to replace the missing amounts.
- Unfortunately the database had to be recovered. Being that the
process was inexact and open to interpretation, there was a lot of
discussion over how this should be done.
- Then there was the issue of ownership. Bitcoinica Consultancy was
not yet completely formed. Zhou was an employee. Bitcoinica did not
believe themselves to be in charge.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy was eventually completed in order that
payments out could proceed. This removed that deadlock.
- Payments started slow as claims were marked accurate, then cleared,
then marked accurate, and finally a last time cleared again as the
process was restarted several times. The fear was that invalid claims
would be marked accurate, and we wanted to ensure the best possible
approximation that is possible.
- The scheme was an initial 50%, and then a final 50% at the end once
all initial payments have been done. This ensures that if we discover
an inaccuracy in our marking of claims, we have a margin of error to
readjust payments out. Say for instance that we discover we paid a
scammer during the claims - 50% is better than 0%.
- Second compromise happened. Bitcoinica is immediately in debt for 30%

Currently the situation is complicated, and there are updates being posted here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=93074.0

Note that I may be inaccurate in my assessments. I only have
incomplete information that other people tell me. I tried to give a
neutral assessment above in the history, and avoided the contentious
points.

Once I know more about what's happening, I'll send another update.
Smaller updates will be posted to the original post in that thread.


I got that too. A few questions spring to my mind immediately:

1. Who are you? "I" in the text above, not signed.

2. With what authority, on whose behalf are you writing this? While I can take an educated guess, many receivers of this mail won't.

3. How can we take this as not yet another stalling technique?

coinft
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July 18, 2012, 12:19:44 PM
 #568

Hi,

Sorry for the hiatus, but I had to take a break to preserve my mental sanity. Here's the update (also in the OP):

Quote
Update: here's the facts from my point of view:

- Patrick quit.
- Zhou quit.
- Tihan was fired, and no longer acting on behalf of Bitcoinica LP.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy were the new operators coming onboard, and the company was formed after the compromise to facilitate payments out.
- Bitcoinica LP is the owner.

The payments process is at a deadlock. Technically when a company is in debt, and cannot pay off its debtors in full, it hands the process to the government (called receivership). Bitcoinica LP would have to make a police report, and hand over the payments process as the owners.

That's it basically. Just a standstill.

The rats are leaving the sinking ship. Go to the police now. Of course they will treat you as prime suspect because of the long delay, but if you don't, it might get much worse in the end.

IANAL
pof
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July 18, 2012, 12:24:47 PM
 #569

Quote
Dear Bitcoinica customers,

Allow me to offer my profuse apology for the delays and chaos. The
situation has been stressful for everyone involved. Dealing with this
challenge has been quite unlike any other situation we've dealt with
in our lives, and a real test of our characters under pressure.

Here is a short run-down of events:

- Bitcoinica was going to be handed over in a slow gradual process to
new operators under the company name Bitcoinica Consultancy.
- First compromise happened. The worst aspect being that the database was wiped.
- Tihan graciously offered his funds to replace the missing amounts.
- Unfortunately the database had to be recovered. Being that the
process was inexact and open to interpretation, there was a lot of
discussion over how this should be done.
- Then there was the issue of ownership. Bitcoinica Consultancy was
not yet completely formed. Zhou was an employee. Bitcoinica did not
believe themselves to be in charge.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy was eventually completed in order that
payments out could proceed. This removed that deadlock.
- Payments started slow as claims were marked accurate, then cleared,
then marked accurate, and finally a last time cleared again as the
process was restarted several times. The fear was that invalid claims
would be marked accurate, and we wanted to ensure the best possible
approximation that is possible.
- The scheme was an initial 50%, and then a final 50% at the end once
all initial payments have been done. This ensures that if we discover
an inaccuracy in our marking of claims, we have a margin of error to
readjust payments out. Say for instance that we discover we paid a
scammer during the claims - 50% is better than 0%.
- Second compromise happened. Bitcoinica is immediately in debt for 30%

Currently the situation is complicated, and there are updates being posted here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=93074.0

Note that I may be inaccurate in my assessments. I only have
incomplete information that other people tell me. I tried to give a
neutral assessment above in the history, and avoided the contentious
points.

Once I know more about what's happening, I'll send another update.
Smaller updates will be posted to the original post in that thread.



1. Who are you? "I" in the text above, not signed.


+1

Bitcoin Oz
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July 18, 2012, 12:29:31 PM
 #570

Hi,

Sorry for the hiatus, but I had to take a break to preserve my mental sanity. Here's the update (also in the OP):

Quote
Update: here's the facts from my point of view:

- Patrick quit.
- Zhou quit.
- Tihan was fired, and no longer acting on behalf of Bitcoinica LP.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy were the new operators coming onboard, and the company was formed after the compromise to facilitate payments out.
- Bitcoinica LP is the owner.

The payments process is at a deadlock. Technically when a company is in debt, and cannot pay off its debtors in full, it hands the process to the government (called receivership). Bitcoinica LP would have to make a police report, and hand over the payments process as the owners.

That's it basically. Just a standstill.

The rats are leaving the sinking ship. Go to the police now. Of course they will treat you as prime suspect because of the long delay, but if you don't, it might get much worse in the end.

IANAL


This.

muyuu
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July 18, 2012, 12:32:24 PM
 #571

Well, not Patrick, not Zhou, not Tihan... I guess it's genjix.

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July 18, 2012, 12:35:12 PM
 #572

Quote
Dear Bitcoinica customers,

Stuff/useless blabla we have heard over and over again


I got that too. A few questions spring to my mind immediately:

1. Who are you? "I" in the text above, not signed.

2. With what authority, on whose behalf are you writing this? While I can take an educated guess, many receivers of this mail won't.

3. How can we take this as not yet another stalling technique?



I received it too. This email is over 2 months overdue, and helps not in the least right now. No word about payouts that may still be made now after the Gox hack.

Why would we care about hearing the same story told again and again with zero news to it? Telling it over and over only shows you in an ever increasingly bad light. For a thousandth time there are no news if it isn't about when and if we get our money back!!!!!! So, stop the spamming.

Genjix, if it's you - please tell us if we get anything back now, or not? If yes, transfer as much of the cash as you can asap asking Zhou how he did it and compare who he found legit to receive paybacks. Then use your good judgement. The other system obviously didn't work because noone received shit before another pile was stolen. Do it before there really is nothing left to distribute.
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July 18, 2012, 12:41:24 PM
 #573

I received it too. This email is over 2 months overdue, and helps not in the least right now. No word about payouts that may still be made now after the Gox hack.

Why would we care about hearing the same story told again and again with zero news to it? Telling it over and over only shows you in an ever increasingly bad light. For a thousandth time there are no news if it isn't about when and if we get our money back!!!!!! So, stop the spamming.

Genjix, if it's you - please tell us if we get anything back now, or not? If yes, transfer as much of the cash as you can asap asking Zhou how he did it and compare who he found legit to receive paybacks. Then use your good judgement. The other system obviously didn't work because noone received shit before another pile was stolen. Do it before there really is nothing left to distribute.


This is not going to happen. Bitcoinica are officially insolvent now and they would get in bigger trouble by giving up their remaining funds before law enforcement can oversee things. They would have to be under administration (UK legal term) wherever their legal jurisdiction is. Delaware, NZ... not sure to be honest.

He already said if you are getting anything back now or not. The answer is "NOT" (look in the last part of the update).

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July 18, 2012, 12:44:56 PM
 #574


That's it basically. Just a standstill.



So nothing has changed and still most people have not received anything...

Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
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July 18, 2012, 12:58:49 PM
 #575

Did we read the same email? In the last part of the update there is nothing that says payouts cannot continue.

There has been no statement by Bitcoinica GP that they are officially insolvent. As long as they haven't declared insolvency, they are still obliged to pay back their customers.

It is our money, and they cannot use our money for their legal defense.
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July 18, 2012, 01:05:28 PM
 #576

Did we read the same email? In the last part of the update there is nothing that says payouts cannot continue.

There has been no statement by Bitcoinica GP that they are officially insolvent. As long as they haven't declared insolvency, they are still obliged to pay back their customers.

It is our money, and they cannot use our money for their legal defense.

The last part of the update here not the email, quoted by genjix TODAY:

Hi,

Sorry for the hiatus, but I had to take a break to preserve my mental sanity. Here's the update (also in the OP):

Quote
Update: here's the facts from my point of view:

- Patrick quit.
- Zhou quit.
- Tihan was fired, and no longer acting on behalf of Bitcoinica LP.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy were the new operators coming onboard, and the company was formed after the compromise to facilitate payments out.
- Bitcoinica LP is the owner.

The payments process is at a deadlock. Technically when a company is in debt, and cannot pay off its debtors in full, it hands the process to the government (called receivership). Bitcoinica LP would have to make a police report, and hand over the payments process as the owners.

That's it basically. Just a standstill.


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July 18, 2012, 01:39:42 PM
 #577

We didn't really expect to be paid back in full for a long time already. Many would be happy if they received anything back at all. A lot of woulds and technicallys here.
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July 18, 2012, 02:07:57 PM
 #578

Quote
Then there was the issue of ownership. Bitcoinica Consultancy was
not yet completely formed. Zhou was an employee. Bitcoinica did not
believe themselves to be in charge.

Ah, so Bitcoinica did not believe themselves to be in charge of themselves (Bitcoinica)? Glad to have that cleared up.
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July 18, 2012, 02:10:12 PM
 #579

Hi,

Sorry for the hiatus, but I had to take a break to preserve my mental sanity. Here's the update (also in the OP):

Quote
Update: here's the facts from my point of view:

- Patrick quit.
- Zhou quit.
- Tihan was fired, and no longer acting on behalf of Bitcoinica LP.
- Bitcoinica Consultancy were the new operators coming onboard, and the company was formed after the compromise to facilitate payments out.
- Bitcoinica LP is the owner.

The payments process is at a deadlock. Technically when a company is in debt, and cannot pay off its debtors in full, it hands the process to the government (called receivership). Bitcoinica LP would have to make a police report, and hand over the payments process as the owners.

That's it basically. Just a standstill.

Needless to say, none of the above names now have access to any wallets. That was needless to ask, wasn't it? To be clear, who NOW only has the keys to any wallets? And where is the cash being stored? And how NOW is able to access that cash? Clearly, it's NOW not any of the above names.

~Bruno~
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July 18, 2012, 02:35:06 PM
 #580

What a joke. Luckily I only invested something like 3 BTC to play around with. I wouldn't be surprised if there were to be another attack...

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