Bitcoin 20MB Fork

[Lauda]

guys, the bitbeans shitcoin with 20MB blocks falls out of sync (no surprise for me)

conclusion: 20MB blocks will likely lead to bad sync and qt-clients falling out of sync.
This problem will almost certainly occure and make bitcoin a horror for the user.
Syncing problems for a majority of users can be expected.

#justsayin'

Because what happens to an altcoin must happen to Bitcoin too. 

[davout]

Linking to an article that mentions "mass market adoption" while supporting a limit that would suppress mass adoption only further serves to highlight the dichotomy in your stance.  You can't have it both ways.  If you want mass adoption, 1MB is not sufficient.  But most of the other things you've said in the various threads on this topic seem to suggest you don't want mass adoption.

If I really have to spell it out for you... I *own* Paymium. In other words : I am qualified to state what is strategic, and in the interest of startups of the space. You are not.

[DooMAD]

Linking to an article that mentions "mass market adoption" while supporting a limit that would suppress mass adoption only further serves to highlight the dichotomy in your stance.  You can't have it both ways.  If you want mass adoption, 1MB is not sufficient.  But most of the other things you've said in the various threads on this topic seem to suggest you don't want mass adoption.

If I really have to spell it out for you... I *own* Paymium. In other words : I am qualified to state what is strategic, and in the interest of startups of the space. You are not.

I figured based on the sig.  That's not the part you need to spell out in plain English.  If you are actively helping merchants to accept Bitcoin for any purchase, no matter how small, in a move towards mass adoption, why are you also stating that you'd prefer those smaller transactions on another chain and supporting a limit that would force that outcome?  Why are you doing one thing and saying the opposite?

[davout]

If you are actively helping merchants to accept Bitcoin for any purchase, no matter how small, in a move towards mass adoption, why are you also stating that you'd prefer those smaller transactions on another chain

I never said "on an other chain". I said "off-chain".
That's simply because that it is much more efficient. It really makes no sense to try to address all business needs with one single solution.

Bitcoin is a very expensive technology, it's vastly counterproductive to try and insist that every customer gets addressed the same way.
The question that comes more frequently is certainly not "will we be able to stay on-chain?", but it is "why do we have to wait 10 minutes to receive our money?".

The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

Do you genuinely think that the level of security provided by the blockchain is absolutely necessary for every single transaction? Do you honestly think everyone will be able to educate themselves enough to grasp how bitcoin actually works? and actually use it properly and securely?

[R2D221]

I never said "on an other chain". I said "off-chain".
That's simply because that it is much more efficient. It really makes no sense to try to address all business needs with one single solution.

Why not?

Bitcoin is a very expensive technology, it's vastly counterproductive to try and insist that every customer gets addressed the same way.

Actually, it's way cheaper than current banking systems. This comes up a lot in “Bitcoin is wasting energy” threads.

The question that comes more frequently is certainly not "will we be able to stay on-chain?", but it is "why do we have to wait 10 minutes to receive our money?".

People who make this question don't understand how transactions work. The solution is educate them, not change the system based on a non-problem.

The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

I disagree. The holy blockchain is useless to me if I as an Average Joe don't get to write into it.

Do you genuinely think that the level of security provided by the blockchain is absolutely necessary for every single transaction?

Yes, I believe so. My daily expenses are very important to me. If they were insecure and somehow reverted, that would mean I would have to return all the goods I've bought. Nobody wants that.

Do you honestly think everyone will be able to educate themselves enough to grasp how bitcoin actually works? and actually use it properly and securely?

Most of the people don't have a clue how the Internet actually works (and they don't need to), and that doesn't stop more than a billion people to use Facebook daily.

[DooMAD]

If you are actively helping merchants to accept Bitcoin for any purchase, no matter how small, in a move towards mass adoption, why are you also stating that you'd prefer those smaller transactions on another chain

I never said "on an other chain". I said "off-chain".
That's simply because that it is much more efficient. It really makes no sense to try to address all business needs with one single solution.

Bitcoin is a very expensive technology, it's vastly counterproductive to try and insist that every customer gets addressed the same way.
The question that comes more frequently is certainly not "will we be able to stay on-chain?", but it is "why do we have to wait 10 minutes to receive our money?".

The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

Do you genuinely think that the level of security provided by the blockchain is absolutely necessary for every single transaction? Do you honestly think everyone will be able to educate themselves enough to grasp how bitcoin actually works? and actually use it properly and securely?

If it's not a transaction on a blockchain, then the alternative is regulation, insurance, consumer protection and all the other centralised, flawed systems that don't come cheap either.  You need to trust the providers of those off-chain services not to lose your money.  I almost wish you had said "on another chain".  

[davout]

Most of the people don't have a clue how the Internet actually works (and they don't need to), and that doesn't stop more than a billion people to use Facebook daily.

This actually illustrates the point beautilfully, what would happen if, suddenly, one billion people couldn't use Facebook anymore?
The idea that this would make the internet one fifth less useful is fucking ridiculous on its face.

then the alternative is regulation, insurance, consumer protection and all the other centralised, flawed systems that don't come cheap either.

Absolutely not. That is only true for services that touch fiat.
Have you had a look at OpenTransactions for example ?

[davout]

If the internet couldn't be accessed by more than three person every second, then suddenly the internet stops becoming useful!

We'll park derps like you on dogecoin the same way one billion derps are herded towards Facebook every day.

You are so out of touch with the Bitcoin ecosystem, you're not a core developer, and nobody invited you to the Bitcoin MIT expo!

Kinda glad I'm not getting the same invitations as Gavin.

LOL just wait til regulators comes after your piddly little Paymium services, just like how they came after Charlie Shrem, just like how they're blocking the Winklevoss ETF, just like how they went after every single money transmitter...

You must be new here.

[BusyBeaverHP]

Polls still holding at 60% in favor vs 20% for anti... for all these arguments ad infinitum, the consensus is holding strong, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Arghhh]

If the internet couldn't be accessed by more than three person every second, then suddenly the internet stops becoming useful!

We'll park derps like you on dogecoin the same way one billion derps are herded towards Facebook every day.

The reality is that derps like me vastly outnumbers tinpot dictators like you, and we'll park ourselves on Bitcoin and expand the blocksize by sheer weight of consensus.

We will feast on the network and write whatever the fuck we want on The Holy Ledger.

What are you going to do about that?

[davout]

The reality is that derps like me vastly outnumbers

Bitcoin is neither a democracy nor a stupidocracy, get over it.

[sickpig]

LOL just wait til regulators comes after your piddly little Paymium services, just like how they came after Charlie Shrem, just like how they're blocking the Winklevoss ETF, just like how they went after every single money transmitter...

You must be new here.

FWIW I am relatively new here, though, after having read the article, I can't avoid noticing that Paymium/Bitcoin-central
offers this services not directly but through a chain of partnership (Paymium -> Aqoba -> Crédit Mutuel Arkea).

I dunno if it still applies, the article's quite old as it was published on Dec 2012, but if it's the case I've seen more than once the
"Finance industry" fighting back trying cutting links between exchanges and the entity entitled of the actual money transmitter
license. I'm not saying that's the case, though.

[DooMAD]

then the alternative is regulation, insurance, consumer protection and all the other centralised, flawed systems that don't come cheap either.

Absolutely not. That is only true for services that touch fiat.
Have you had a look at OpenTransactions for example ?

I'll add it to the list of things like sidechains, pruning and other things that keep getting raised when you run out of arguments.  All sound great in theory, but actually need to be finished, ready to go and proven reliable before they can be considered viable alternatives.  Until that time comes, the 1MB limit has to go.

[Arghhh]

The reality is that derps like me vastly outnumbers

Bitcoin is neither a democracy nor a stupidocracy, get over it.

Bitcoin is whatever the fuck I say it is. Your opinion is your own, get over it.

There are sets of consensus rules that people like me will simply use to overpower your curated gold, and there is very little you can do about it given that the core developers has the backing of the masses.

Just like the French Revolution, the third and fourth estate will be responsible for the downfall of the first estate.
Know your history, Frenchman.

[davout]

FWIW I am relatively new here, though, after having read the article, I can't avoid noticing that Paymium/Bitcoin-central
offers this services not directly but through a chain of partnership (Paymium -> Aqoba -> Crédit Mutuel Arkea).

I dunno if it still applies, the article's quite old as it was published on Dec 2012, but if it's the case I've seen more than once the
"Finance industry" fighting back trying cutting links between exchanges and the entity entitled of the actual money transmitter
license. I'm not saying that's the case, though.

Your reading and comprehension are accurate.

I'll add it to the list of things like sidechains, pruning and other things that keep getting raised when you run out of arguments.  All sound great in theory, but actually need to be finished, ready to go and proven reliable before they can be considered viable alternatives.  Until that time comes, the 1MB limit has to go.

Open Transactions is ready. Do your fucking homework before answering.

Bitcoin is whatever the fuck I say it is. Your opinion is your own, get over it.

Bitcoin isn't a assertocracy either.

people like me will simply use

You will *get* used, as cumrags.

[Pecunia non olet]

Making bitcoin less defensible and same time central point of failure is certainly nothing that will win over many (possibly merge mined) chains which are more defensible.

Doge and general altcoin growth has already shown: people who come late are likely to go for a new chain (intuitively because nobody buys the one-world-chain-crap because it's not desirable and people intuitively choose the better wealthdistribution that altcoins offer, the 'one chain for alll' is not even technically possible without sacrifice in security and useablity)  
Also smaller cap offers higher potential returns. The distribution of value into a decentral multi-chain economy will happen naturally.
Gavin admits it himself: all this discussion just takes place to prevent altcoins from gaining marketshare; it's inevitable though.

So this whole 20MB crap is officially motivated by greed and nothing else.

Best bitcoin can do is care about defensibility to keep the position of the goldstandard. Messing up its defensibility and useability with bloat-blocks will lead to its demise.  


I read 'consensus war' ... this translates for me to 'selfdistruction'

[Arghhh]

FWIW I am relatively new here, though, after having read the article, I can't avoid noticing that Paymium/Bitcoin-central
offers this services not directly but through a chain of partnership (Paymium -> Aqoba -> Crédit Mutuel Arkea).

I dunno if it still applies, the article's quite old as it was published on Dec 2012, but if it's the case I've seen more than once the
"Finance industry" fighting back trying cutting links between exchanges and the entity entitled of the actual money transmitter
license. I'm not saying that's the case, though.

Your reading and comprehension are accurate.

I'll add it to the list of things like sidechains, pruning and other things that keep getting raised when you run out of arguments.  All sound great in theory, but actually need to be finished, ready to go and proven reliable before they can be considered viable alternatives.  Until that time comes, the 1MB limit has to go.

Open Transactions is ready. Do your fucking homework before answering.

Bitcoin is whatever the fuck I say it is. Your opinion is your own, get over it.

Bitcoin isn't a assertocracy either.

people like me will simply use

You will *get* used, as cumrags.

I understand that English isn't your first language and your country lost several wars, but it looks like you're juggling three different criticisms coming at you like a whore juggling three cocks... You seem rather overextended...

This is just a precedent of what happens when the 20MB blockchain rolls out and you try to run your piddly little 1MB chain.

 

[Arghhh]

Think you will find 80+% of blocks with fake nodes ?  

Of course, 20MB fake nodes. What's your point?  

[davout]

I understand

Doubtful

[davout]

Your response is now so subdued, like a good little dog being hushed by its master.
Similar things will happen when Gavin Andresen hushes your 1MB node.
Who's a good girl? WHO'S A GOOD GIRL???

Right.