Your cryptocoins were stolen and you called the police? WTF? Are you serious?

[Come-from-Beyond]

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.

[1714181213]

1714181213

[BadBear]

Keep your politics/ideologies out of my bitcoins.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Property is property

You steal $1,000 from me I am going to call the Police.
You steal 1 gold bar from me I am going to call the Police.
You steal confidential documents from me I am going to call the Police.
You steal username/password to an online game from me and sell the account I am going to call the Police.
You steal some Bitcoins from me I am going to call the Police.

The idea that the Police only investigate thefts of dollars is just stupid.  

Would you apply your failed logic to any other property on the planet?
"Sorry sir that man stole your CAR.  See cars (and trucks) aren't currency issued by the US government there is nothing we can do.  Why did you call us?  You didn't by any chance have some loose change in the car.  If so then we could open a Police report.  Not for the car but for the coins in the car that were stolen."

[Jutarul]

Agree with DeathAndTaxes . As long as you can prove pre-existing ownership (the police can only find something which is traceable) and have a clue on when and where the theft it happened it doesn't matter if it's baseball cards or bitcoins.

[Raoul Duke]

May I ask you what are you doing on this forum since November last year?


Now one thought exercise: I pay taxes and I DEMAND that the police investigates if I ever get "cryptocoins" stolen from me. What are you going to do about it?

[finkleshnorts]

Somebody steals from me, I'm recruiting all the help I can get. I pay my taxes after all!

Disclosure:
1: I'm not an anarchist.
2: I use bitcoins.
3: I completely understand what a cryptocurrency is, thanks.
4: (nothing has been stolen from me anyway)

[rjk]

Your coins were stolen and you didn't call the police? WTF? Are you serious?

FTFY

[unclemantis]

Hey cops! Some guy stole my math equations that are worth on the black market xxx usd

[repentance]

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.

It is the USD transactions people are talking about.  That's what there's a trail for.  The MtGox codes were converted to Liberty Reserve currency and attempts then made to withdraw those funds as "fiat money".  

Bitcoins are not illegal.  There's no reason not to have Bitcoin thefts investigated.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Hey cops! Some guy stole my math equations that are worth on the black market xxx usd

Last time I check MtGox and other exchanges aren't black markets.  The fact that Bitcoins (and dollars) can be used for illegal purposes doesn't negate the fact that they have value in legit markets. 

[Come-from-Beyond]

You steal some Bitcoins from me I am going to call the Police.

The idea that the Police only investigate thefts of dollars is just stupid.

If u use cryptocoins then u play Cryptoanarchopoly game. If u took a gun and joined warfare, then u wouldn't call the police after being shot.

[niko]

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are.

You got that right. And nothing else.

[Matthew N. Wright]

You steal some Bitcoins from me I am going to call the Police.

The idea that the Police only investigate thefts of dollars is just stupid.

If u use cryptocoins then u play Cryptoanarchopoly game. If u took a gun and joined warfare, then u wouldn't call the police after being shot.

Actually, police will investigate gang shootings against drug dealers who carry unlicensed firearms as well. You have misunderstood what the police are for based on your misinformation. Are you getting all your news from youtube?

[unclemantis]

Hey cops! Some guy stole my math equations that are worth on the black market xxx usd

Last time I check MtGox and other exchanges aren't black markets.  The fact that Bitcoins (and dollars) can be used for illegal purposes doesn't negate the fact that they have value in legit markets. 

OK fine. They are UNREGULATED AND NO LAWS PROTECT FROM THIS TYPE OF PRODUCT.

Is that better?

[Matthew N. Wright]

Hey cops! Some guy stole my math equations that are worth on the black market xxx usd

Last time I check MtGox and other exchanges aren't black markets.  The fact that Bitcoins (and dollars) can be used for illegal purposes doesn't negate the fact that they have value in legit markets. 

OK fine. They are UNREGULATED AND NO LAWS PROTECT FROM THIS TYPE OF PRODUCT.

Is that better?

Not really. They are unregulated directly but are still regulated to a degree via FinCEN.

[Vod]

Any reasonable person would call the police if something was stolen from them.

All evidence points towards Zhou Tong stealing from Bitcoinica.  He claims to have his identity stolen, and he says he was framed.  Yet he has not called the police...  hmmmmm

[niko]

Hey cops! Some guy stole my math equations that are worth on the black market xxx usd

Last time I check MtGox and other exchanges aren't black markets.  The fact that Bitcoins (and dollars) can be used for illegal purposes doesn't negate the fact that they have value in legit markets. 

OK fine. They are UNREGULATED AND NO LAWS PROTECT FROM THIS TYPE OF PRODUCT.

Is that better?

Why are you yelling, uncle? Also, just curious - are carrots regulated? I'm growing some in my garden. What do you think about carrots?

[Come-from-Beyond]

Actually, police will investigate gang shootings against drug dealers who carry unlicensed firearms as well. You have misunderstood what the police are for based on your misinformation. Are you getting all your news from youtube?

I meant the warfare like American Civil War.

[sarpar]

Reasons why people call for the cops are:
 
1. they are NOT a victim and just are craving for sensation
2. they ARE a victim and realize that a civil process to recover funds is far to risky and prohibitively expensive, so they desire revenge. Helplessly thy cry for others.

what they don't realize is that the cops won't actively start international crime investigations, pioneering new fields of law for such low amounts of damage. while local law obliges mostly to investigate, luckily also government conducts somehow a cost-benefit analysis.

[Vod]

Reason why people don't call the cops:

1) They are actually the ones that committed the crime

[Come-from-Beyond]

OK fine. They are UNREGULATED AND NO LAWS PROTECT FROM THIS TYPE OF PRODUCT.

Is that better?

Much better. Now we understand that our community needs something that would protect us in such cases. This could be (for example) modification of bitcoin algo that let us to revert criminal transactions. It's very tempting to get back the bitcoins stolen from Bitcoinica account.

[barbarousrelic]

It is not illegal or illicit to barter whatever you want for whatever you want (so long as those things are both legal to possess and sell.) So there's nothing wrong about calling the police if one of these legal items is stolen. They might not care much about virtual Internet currency, but there's nothing saying you can't contact them.

[alexanderanon]

While statist entities still exist, people who can identify perpetrators of bitcoin related crimes will continue to seek retribution using this perverse system of old. Nothing can be done about this, but in the history of bitcoin thefts, most have resulted in no police action because of bitcoin's strong anonymity. As bitcoin matures into the mainstream, I suspect these scams will become less commonplace as people's real identities become more tied to their online ones, and hopefully a reputation system emerges to "enforce" contracts in this new bitcoin economy. However, if the state is continually drawn into bitcoin disputes, bitcoin will be outlawed sooner than later. Then it will be driven underground, and only those ideologically committed to the principles that gave birth to bitcoin will continue to support bitcoin. The others will probably resort to some mintchip nonsense.

Keep your politics/ideologies out of my bitcoins.

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

[Come-from-Beyond]

It is not illegal or illicit to barter whatever you want for whatever you want (so long as those things are both legal to possess and sell.) So there's nothing wrong about calling the police if one of these legal items is stolen. They might not care much about virtual Internet currency, but there's nothing saying you can't contact them.

Funny thing is that if u follow advice that let u to stay anonymous then it could be hard to prove that u realy owned some particular bitcoins. So we need something that is integral part of bitcoin's world.

[Come-from-Beyond]

While statist entities still exist, people who can identify perpetrators of bitcoin related crimes will continue to seek retribution using this perverse system of old. Nothing can be done about this, but in the history of bitcoin thefts, most have resulted in no police action because of bitcoin's strong anonymity. As bitcoin matures into the mainstream, I suspect these scams will become less commonplace as people's real identities become more tied to their online ones, and hopefully a reputation system emerges to "enforce" contracts in this new bitcoin economy. However, if the state is continually drawn into bitcoin disputes, bitcoin will be outlawed sooner than later. Then it will be driven underground, and only those ideologically committed to the principles that gave birth to bitcoin will continue to support bitcoin. The others will probably resort to some mintchip nonsense.

Keep your politics/ideologies out of my bitcoins.

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

+1000

[Raoul Duke]

Hey cops! Some guy stole my math equations that are worth on the black market xxx usd

Last time I check MtGox and other exchanges aren't black markets.  The fact that Bitcoins (and dollars) can be used for illegal purposes doesn't negate the fact that they have value in legit markets. 

OK fine. They are UNREGULATED AND NO LAWS PROTECT FROM THIS TYPE OF PRODUCT.

Is that better?

Hi bulanula! Welcome back!

You got to be kidding me. All of you saying such barbarities are making me wish someone steals some bitcoins from me so I can go complaint to the police and prove you wrong =/

[Matthew N. Wright]

It was never a hacker's agenda to promote anonymity-- the objective was always transparency. Hacking to unlock the truth, sharing information, shedding light on lies, uncovering the truth, breaking through the anonymity of thieves, liars, political agendas and deception. This "anonymous" obsession is not a noble one and has no part in a functioning society.

Also, "Alexander" only seems to post something right when Atlas is banned. Coincidence?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

Any evidence that Satoshi or any of the early developers are anarchists?
Any evidence that all the current developers are anarchists?
Any evidence that a majority of current users are anarchists?

Probably not.    How much development of the Bitcoin protocol have you done?

[alexanderanon]

It was never a hacker's agenda to promote anonymity-- the objective was always transparency. Hacking to unlock the truth, sharing information, shedding light on lies, uncovering the truth, breaking through the anonymity of thieves, liars, political agendas and deception. This "anonymous" obsession is not a noble one and has no part in a functioning society.

Also, "Alexander" only seems to post something right when Atlas is banned. Coincidence?

Troll elsewhere? I've noticed that you seem to accuse everyone of being some Atlas impersonator. I've been a member longer than you have. Maybe you're Atlas!

And go read the cyphernomicron. Dispense with your san fran techcrunch "transparency" obsession. Why don't you go develop a facebook app?

[repentance]

It is not illegal or illicit to barter whatever you want for whatever you want (so long as those things are both legal to possess and sell.) So there's nothing wrong about calling the police if one of these legal items is stolen. They might not care much about virtual Internet currency, but there's nothing saying you can't contact them.

They mightn't care much about in game items, either, but people have been prosecuted for stealing virtual furniture from Habbo Hotel.

Crypto-anarchists can believe that there's a "right" way to do Bitcoin all they like, but the reality is that crypto-anarchists are not the only - or even the majority of -people using Bitcoin and those who wish to use it as either an alternative currency or a commodity see no reason why Bitcoin thefts shouldn't be treated like the theft of any other item.

Crypto-anarchists can't tell other people how they "should" regard Bitcoin or confine Bitcoin use to those who share their ideology.

[alexanderanon]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

Any evidence that Satoshi or any of the early developers are anarchists?
Any evidence that all the current developers are anarchists?
Any evidence that a majority of current users are anarchists?

Probably not.    How much development of the Bitcoin protocol have you done?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypherpunks#Noteworthy_cypherpunks
Bittorrent, peer to peer, wikileaks, *LINUX*,  Piratebay, Tor, Satoshi? I recall Satoshi expressing some libertarian sentiment in some old post of his, but I won't find it for you now. To suggest that bitcoin is not in some way a result of decades of libertarian thought is a gross denial on your part. Hell, the mainstream even  refers to it as some "libertarian dream" akin to those libertarian islands. And I'm sure the majority of users are libertarians, particularly early adopters. The rest are mostly slashdot liberals who think this is a neat idea but have no conception of the implications of bitcoin on society whatsoever. It's like a savage discovering fire and not creating civilization from it.

[alexanderanon]

It is not illegal or illicit to barter whatever you want for whatever you want (so long as those things are both legal to possess and sell.) So there's nothing wrong about calling the police if one of these legal items is stolen. They might not care much about virtual Internet currency, but there's nothing saying you can't contact them.

They mightn't care much about in game items, either, but people have been prosecuted for stealing virtual furniture from Habbo Hotel.

Crypto-anarchists can believe that there's a "right" way to do Bitcoin all they like, but the reality is that crypto-anarchists are not the only - or even the majority of -people using Bitcoin and those who wish to use it as either an alternative currency or a commodity see no reason why Bitcoin thefts shouldn't be treated like the theft of any other item.

Crypto-anarchists can't tell other people how they "should" regard Bitcoin or confine Bitcoin use to those who share their ideology.

The nature of the system compels behavior towards that behavior which can only be described as libertarian. Are you telling me you are going to actually disclose bitcoin holdings/earnings on your tax forms?

[Matthew N. Wright]

Bittorrent

Aids transparency by sharing files.

peer to peer

Aids transparency by sharing files.

wikileaks

Aids transparency by sharing information.

Piratebay

Aids transparency by sharing files.

Tor

Focuses on anonymity.


Transparency is great. Anonymity is for cowards who want to fight wars at the expense of others without any repercussions.

[repentance]

The nature of the system compels behavior towards that behavior which can only be described as libertarian. Are you telling me you are going to actually disclose bitcoin holdings/earnings on your tax forms?

There'd be no reason for me not to declare it - income from a hobby isn't taxable here.  

[alexanderanon]

Bittorrent

Aids transparency by sharing files.

peer to peer

Aids transparency by sharing files.

wikileaks

Aids transparency by sharing information.

Piratebay

Aids transparency by sharing files.

Tor

Focuses on anonymity.


Transparency is great. Anonymity is for cowards who want to fight wars at the expense of others without any repercussions.

Seriously? Do you really not see how anonymity and privacy is the fundamental here, and transparency is merely a derivative consequence? What is transparent about bittorrent? You share files fairly anonymously, and you don't get shut down or sued like Napster. It doesn't create transparency in monolithic institution, unless you count that in with depriving record labels and hollywood producers of revenue. Wikileaks? Leak files...anonymously? So that it can create transparency in monolithic institutions? Like the state? Deprived of revenue by tax-evading anonymous currencies? Using anonymous darknet mediums such as Tor? Equals libertarian anarchism?

Cause and effect.

[alexanderanon]

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/07/crypto-cat-encryption-for-all/

Anonymous cowards!

[redbeans2012]

This is why a truly free market will never exist.  People make dumb decisions, (ie: leaving 20k bitcoins on bitcoinica) get law enforcement involved cause they are angry, eventually laws happen and round and round we go.

[Matthew N. Wright]

What is transparent about bittorrent?

What is anonymous about it? How many people have been dragged into court rooms despite it's "anonymous nature" you claim?

You share files fairly anonymously, and you don't get shut down or sued like Napster.

200,000 U.S. BitTorrent Users Sued, http://www.tomsguide.com/us/bittorrent-file-sharing-copyright-violation-lawsuit,news-12115.html

Wikileaks? Leak files...anonymously?

Wikileaks is not anonymous. If it were anonymous, why would Asange be wanted by the US? You know you can leak things to -any- reporter in the USA and they can protect your identity as well?

Using anonymous darknet mediums such as Tor?

https://www.torproject.org/about/torusers.html.en

That's who uses tor. It has nothing to do with some noble cause. It's just about hiding yourself. Who needs to hide themselves when everyone knows who everyone is and what they're doing?

When everyone has a gun, there is less fighting. You apparently advocate having hidden guns so that you can empower users of deception and coercion (very non-libertarian).

[FlipPro]

Keep your politics/ideologies out of my bitcoins.

+1

[FlipPro]

Hey cops! Some guy stole my math equations that are worth on the black market xxx usd

Last time I check MtGox and other exchanges aren't black markets.  The fact that Bitcoins (and dollars) can be used for illegal purposes doesn't negate the fact that they have value in legit markets.  

Another +1.

There are some very stupid and uninformed people in this forum it seems =/

[alexanderanon]

When everyone has a gun, there is less fighting. You apparently advocate having hidden guns so that you can empower users of deception and coercion (very non-libertarian).

??

How does gun concealment create deception and coercion? Notice how cops have their guns holstered for all to see while hackers use pseudonyms? I think you are trying to peddle some perceived hacker mantra without truly understanding the foundation of this entire movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography
Cryptography (or cryptology; from Greek κρυπτός, "hidden, secret"; and γράφειν, graphein, "writing".

[Matthew N. Wright]

When everyone has a gun, there is less fighting. You apparently advocate having hidden guns so that you can empower users of deception and coercion (very non-libertarian).

??

How does gun concealment create deception and coercion? Notice how cops have their guns holstered for all to see while hackers use pseudonyms? I think you are trying to peddle some perceived hacker mantra without truly understanding the foundation of this entire movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography
Cryptography (or cryptology; from Greek κρυπτός, "hidden, secret"; and γράφειν, graphein, "writing".

The "movement" is a military one. You think anonymity will protect you? Imagine everyone being anonymous. Wow. That's a fun world to live in. Who are your parents? Who are your friends? Who is your president? Who are the police? Everyone can commit any and all crimes against you and you have absolutely no recourse. Go peddle your thieving mantra somewhere else. Bitcoin is about transparency to end coercion, not about anonymity. Anonymity is a different battle, one that I do not at this point see any point in supporting.

[alexanderanon]

When everyone has a gun, there is less fighting. You apparently advocate having hidden guns so that you can empower users of deception and coercion (very non-libertarian).

??

How does gun concealment create deception and coercion? Notice how cops have their guns holstered for all to see while hackers use pseudonyms? I think you are trying to peddle some perceived hacker mantra without truly understanding the foundation of this entire movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography
Cryptography (or cryptology; from Greek κρυπτός, "hidden, secret"; and γράφειν, graphein, "writing".

The "movement" is a military one. You think anonymity will protect you? Imagine everyone being anonymous. Wow. That's a fun world to live in. Who are your parents? Who are your friends? Who is your president? Who are the police? Everyone can commit any and all crimes against you and you have absolutely no recourse. Go peddle your thieving mantra somewhere else. Bitcoin is about transparency to end coercion, not about anonymity. Anonymity is a different battle, one that I do not at this point see any point in supporting.

I think you are just suffering from a fundamental cognitive failure. Anonymity is a powerful recourse, not a social imperative. It protects the weak from the oppressive, by making the weak faceless. And I don't imagine a world with a president or police. Perhaps that's where your problem lies, in your support for the state --- a true "thieving mantra".

[FlipPro]

When everyone has a gun, there is less fighting. You apparently advocate having hidden guns so that you can empower users of deception and coercion (very non-libertarian).

??

How does gun concealment create deception and coercion? Notice how cops have their guns holstered for all to see while hackers use pseudonyms? I think you are trying to peddle some perceived hacker mantra without truly understanding the foundation of this entire movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography
Cryptography (or cryptology; from Greek κρυπτός, "hidden, secret"; and γράφειν, graphein, "writing".

The "movement" is a military one. You think anonymity will protect you? Imagine everyone being anonymous. Wow. That's a fun world to live in. Who are your parents? Who are your friends? Who is your president? Who are the police? Everyone can commit any and all crimes against you and you have absolutely no recourse. Go peddle your thieving mantra somewhere else. Bitcoin is about transparency to end coercion, not about anonymity. Anonymity is a different battle, one that I do not at this point see any point in supporting.

To many +1 for one thread? LOL

[iCEBREAKER]

Now one thought exercise: I pay taxes and I DEMAND that the police investigates if I ever get "cryptocoins" stolen from me. What are you going to do about it?

Well, first I'd have to laugh at the idea of you attempting to explain the multiple advanced concepts necessary to understand cryptocoins to your earnest reporting officer (who has much more important matters pending his limited attention than your nerd drama).

Then I might write a comedy sketch about your vain attempts to fill out a police report, press charges, and further escalate the matter.

"Describe the property stolen"
" 015ee09d20887701c404e9c3076b449f965656f6e72175a3b4725496149e75c2"

"Who do you suspect stole the property?"
"I'm 52.11212% sure 1MiHJFq2Nk8sdAAKSKgLUzi7zp4N3ZcVwz stole it, and 47.88788% sure it was 14uDeJYMp3Fr2Wm7biCvwqmf6To8rLt3hJ (the dirty bastard)."

"I'm sorry we can't understand WTF you're talking about, much less help you."
"OK then I'm filing a complaint, and getting a lawyer, and DEMANDing my taxes back."

"That's great buddy.  Good luck with that."

You can't steal a number, despite what Sony's IP lawyers may have contended regarding 46-dc-ea-d3-17-fe-45-d8-09-23-eb-97-e4-95-64-10-d4-cd-b2-c2 (until proven wrong in a most humiliating public fashion).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

[alexanderanon]

When everyone has a gun, there is less fighting. You apparently advocate having hidden guns so that you can empower users of deception and coercion (very non-libertarian).

??

How does gun concealment create deception and coercion? Notice how cops have their guns holstered for all to see while hackers use pseudonyms? I think you are trying to peddle some perceived hacker mantra without truly understanding the foundation of this entire movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography
Cryptography (or cryptology; from Greek κρυπτός, "hidden, secret"; and γράφειν, graphein, "writing".

The "movement" is a military one. You think anonymity will protect you? Imagine everyone being anonymous. Wow. That's a fun world to live in. Who are your parents? Who are your friends? Who is your president? Who are the police? Everyone can commit any and all crimes against you and you have absolutely no recourse. Go peddle your thieving mantra somewhere else. Bitcoin is about transparency to end coercion, not about anonymity. Anonymity is a different battle, one that I do not at this point see any point in supporting.

To many +1 for one thread? LOL

I think your poor grammar is indicative of the quality of your judgment in general.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Perhaps that's where your problem lies, in your support for the state

Support for transparent organization != support for state

You think the world survives without organization. Have fun trying to work with others to build/create/better the world when you don't know how to contact them, can't get the work from them that you paid for, get robbed by them, and are raped by them in the night. Yay, anonymity!

[iCEBREAKER]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists libertarians and for anarchists libertarians. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

Great comment, barely needed fixing.

/came for the circlejerk

[alexanderanon]

Perhaps that's where your problem lies, in your support for the state

Support for transparent organization != support for state

You think the world survives without organization. Have fun trying to work with others to build/create/better the world when you don't know how to contact them, can't get the work from them that you paid for, get robbed by them, and are raped by them in the night. Yay, anonymity!

As I said, anonymity is not some social imperative that prohibits someone from having a real-life name, or something else ridiculous. When did I say that anarchy is utterly without order? Heard of spontaneous order? I began my comments on this thread by arguing against the notion that bitcoin and libertarian ideology can be separate. You have proceeded to then heap your own misunderstandings and conflated definitions upon each other to come to this conclusion, which I would describe as reductio ad absurdum, if not for the fact that it has had precisely the opposite of that intended effect.  Perhaps you haven't had the chance to read up on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_anarchism

I hope this level of ignorance isn't indicative of all bitcoinforum staff...

[finkleshnorts]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists libertarians and for anarchists libertarians. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

Great comment, barely needed fixing.

/came for the circlejerk

I have read that those words are synonymous outside the U.S.

[alexanderanon]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists libertarians and for anarchists libertarians. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

Great comment, barely needed fixing.

/came for the circlejerk

I use libertarian and anarchist interchangeably, because I assume my readers aren't so daft as to think I mean libertarian socialist, or collectivistic anarchist. There is only market anarchy.

[Raoul Duke]

Now one thought exercise: I pay taxes and I DEMAND that the police investigates if I ever get "cryptocoins" stolen from me. What are you going to do about it?

Well, first I'd have to laugh at the idea of you attempting to explain the multiple advanced concepts necessary to understand cryptocoins to your earnest reporting officer (who has much more important matters pending his limited attention than your nerd drama).

What makes you think the officer doesn't know what Bitcoin is?
Also, the only thing he needs to ask me is: How much was it worth?
When I tell him it was worth more than €2500 the procedures change as those cases require special investigation and will automatically be passed to the FBI equivalent in my home country, most likely to the cybercrime division given the typology of the crime at hand.

You assume too much...

[FlipPro]

When everyone has a gun, there is less fighting. You apparently advocate having hidden guns so that you can empower users of deception and coercion (very non-libertarian).

??

How does gun concealment create deception and coercion? Notice how cops have their guns holstered for all to see while hackers use pseudonyms? I think you are trying to peddle some perceived hacker mantra without truly understanding the foundation of this entire movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography
Cryptography (or cryptology; from Greek κρυπτός, "hidden, secret"; and γράφειν, graphein, "writing".

The "movement" is a military one. You think anonymity will protect you? Imagine everyone being anonymous. Wow. That's a fun world to live in. Who are your parents? Who are your friends? Who is your president? Who are the police? Everyone can commit any and all crimes against you and you have absolutely no recourse. Go peddle your thieving mantra somewhere else. Bitcoin is about transparency to end coercion, not about anonymity. Anonymity is a different battle, one that I do not at this point see any point in supporting.

To many +1 for one thread? LOL

I think your poor grammar is indicative of the quality of your judgment in general.

The fact that you reference to grammar as a sign of good or bad judgment, only shows just how intransigent and uncompromising you really are. You break down your opponent’s by belittling them with every opportunity, and adhere to egregious ideologies that don’t correlate with reality or modern day society. You sir in my opinion, are the perfect example of everything that is wrong today with Bitcoin.

[iCEBREAKER]

I use libertarian and anarchist interchangeably, because I assume my readers aren't so daft as to think I mean libertarian socialist, or collectivistic anarchist. There is only market anarchy.

Anarchists reject the need for, and inevitability of, a State.

Libertarians accept the need for, and inevitability of, a State (albeit a minimal, non-coersive one).

It's not a trivial difference, hence the terms are not interchangeable. 

Readers who aren't daft will be confused, or tempted to correct such misuse.

The only place where libertarian means anarchist is France, for historical reasons.

Here's an easy way to remember which term to use: libertarians have jobs and take showers, anarchists just mooch and smell bad.

[repentance]

Now one thought exercise: I pay taxes and I DEMAND that the police investigates if I ever get "cryptocoins" stolen from me. What are you going to do about it?

You can't steal a number, despite what Sony's IP lawyers may have contended regarding 46-dc-ea-d3-17-fe-45-d8-09-23-eb-97-e4-95-64-10-d4-cd-b2-c2 (until proven wrong in a most humiliating public fashion).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

If someone cleans out my online bank account they are transferring to themselves a set of numbers which they can then spend or redeem for cash.  Those numbers to not correlate to specific $20 or $50 dollar bills which are "mine" - it is the transfer of value belonging to me (same applies to cash - I don't "own the bank notes in my wallet but the value the represent) which is the offence.

[Sant001]

Keep your politics/ideologies out of my bitcoins.

+1

[BkkCoins]

The courts and police use DNA tests without fully understanding everything about that. Why would anyone need to explain how Bitcoin cryptography or transfer systems work? All they need to know to deal with a crime is that they were stolen, when, how and details like that.

It's not like art collectors have to prove why a Rembrandt has value or a historian has to explain the significance of an important document in order to report a crime of theft. It's not hard to point to the value of a Bitcoin.

Whether they can do anything depends on the circumstances. It's not like the brain power isn't out there. They do shutdown botnets and other complex stuff. Only a kid could entertain the notion that the police can't deal with Bitcoin.

[BadBear]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

So what exactly is the problem with reporting the theft then? Even in an anarchist society there would be private security companies doing the job of the police (minus the many violations of civil liberties that's becoming common these days).

[FlipPro]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

So what exactly is the problem with reporting the theft then? Even in an anarchist society there would be private security companies doing the job of the police (minus the many violations of civil liberties that's becoming common these days).

What makes you think Private companies won't commit the same violations to civil liberties?

They are controlled by money at the end of the day you know...

[BadBear]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

So what exactly is the problem with reporting the theft then? Even in an anarchist society there would be private security companies doing the job of the police (minus the many violations of civil liberties that's becoming common these days).

What makes you think Private companies won't commit the same violations to civil liberties?

They are controlled by money at the end of the day you know...

Yeah they could, should've stuck a maybe in there somewhere.

[JoelKatz]

What makes you think Private companies won't commit the same violations to civil liberties?

Two things:

1) They can't immunize their employees from retaliation the way a State can. The employees of a private company are fully personally responsible for their actions. Private companies have no right or ability to insulate their employees from the consequences of their actions.

2) When not socially accepted, the use of force is generally a losing proposition because all of civilized society will rebel against it. It's not like the company can keep secret their identity. The rest of society will refuse to do business with them, boycott their customers, and so on. (Unless the majority wants to go back to having a government, in which case, no system can stop a majority of force from forcing its way on everyone else.)

[Bitcoin Oz]

Do mercenaries and hitmen accept bitcoins ?

[alexanderanon]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

So what exactly is the problem with reporting the theft then? Even in an anarchist society there would be private security companies doing the job of the police (minus the many violations of civil liberties that's becoming common these days).

What makes you think Private companies won't commit the same violations to civil liberties?

They are controlled by money at the end of the day you know...

That's the perception of libertarian anarchism that kept me a libertarian minarchist for so long. There are no private companies with their own militia divisions paid for with "company profits", or any other sort of market-controlled police nonsense. There is merely reputation economics. Insurance on wide scale. You do something bad, everyone knows about it, and thus rates for any and all contracts rise accordingly. You do something really bad, like kill someone, you face a choice. Voluntary punishment, or exile: no one will do business with you.

And just as free market libertarians stole the term "libertarian" from the socialist libertarians, anarchist libertarians are stealing the term from minarchist libertarians. There is no "necessary evil". All states, by their nature, must grow and become tyrannies eventually. The growth of the US federal government, from the most restrained and controlled state in history, to now an enormous empire-building leviathan, is the perfect example of the failure of minarchist libertarianism.

[tvbcof]

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

So what exactly is the problem with reporting the theft then? Even in an anarchist society there would be private security companies doing the job of the police (minus the many violations of civil liberties that's becoming common these days).

Heh.  You mean like Blackwater in Iraq?  I suppose that the meaning of 'civil liberties' could eventually be managed down to a point where it is OK to randomly shoot at cars for the fun of it and run down people who are close enough to the street that it is doable without swerving to much.

But back to the original point, I think it is appropriate (currently) to enlist the support of law enforcement on the basis of there being a general computer related crime.  If the crime resulted in a demonstrable loss (and as long as exchanges are operational and legal this should be easy to demonstrate with some precision) then there is a basis for a fair judgement against loss.  Plenty of my tax dollars go toward fighting various crimes including computer related ones...as long as the thief is not a well connected person like Jon Corzine that is.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I think theres some misunderstanding about "peace officers" and "law enforcement officers". Peace officers are a necessary part of civil society to deal with crimes while "leo's" enforce the arbitrary dictates of the state.

It sucks that police officers today have to combine both duties rather than being strictly used for crime fighting.

[Kluge]

What the Hell were we talking about again?

Oh - why call the police? That's an easy one. Private companies are often unwilling to provide information or do an internal investigation without a court order, which pretty much necessitates involving the police. So.... why involve the police? - I want my $5k worth of BTC back. That's not an endorsement of government, just simple greed and common sense.

[ninjarobot]

Here's an easy way to remember which term to use: libertarians have jobs and take showers, anarchists just mooch and smell bad.

That is funny, since just the other day I was listening to an anarchist that *does* have a job and takes showers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbyF_17GTNA&feature=youtu.be#t=20m38s

[paraipan]

What the Hell were we talking about again?

Oh - why call the police? That's an easy one. Private companies are often unwilling to provide information or do an internal investigation without a court order, which pretty much necessitates involving the police. So.... why involve the police? - I want my $5k worth of BTC back. That's not an endorsement of government, just simple greed and common sense.

+1 exact reason in bold

[JoelKatz]

Heh.  You mean like Blackwater in Iraq?  I suppose that the meaning of 'civil liberties' could eventually be managed down to a point where it is OK to randomly shoot at cars for the fun of it and run down people who are close enough to the street that it is doable without swerving to much.

Blackwater was given the legal right to use force by a government which paid and protected it in exchange for that force.

[molecular]

Property is property

You steal username/password to an online game from me and sell the account I am going to call the Police.

what if I guess your username/password?

[molecular]

Hey cops! Some guy stole my math equations that are worth on the black market xxx usd

These documents are property of the state department. We demand they be returned immediately!

[paraipan]

Property is property

You steal username/password to an online game from me and sell the account I am going to call the Police.

what if I guess your username/password?

What if you guess he's wifi password, bank login or the pin number of the house alarm?

[Gabi]

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.

Nonsense

We pay TAXES wich also serve for the police service. So yes, if someone steal something from you, you should call the police because you know, you pay TAXES for that.

[SlaveInDebt]

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.

Nonsense

We pay TAXES wich also serve for the police service. So yes, if someone steal something from you, you should call the police because you know, you pay TAXES for that.

Another reason not to pay ___. When was the last time you filed a police report for theft? Care to describe the swift actions that took place afterwards?

[Come-from-Beyond]

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.

Nonsense

We pay TAXES wich also serve for the police service. So yes, if someone steal something from you, you should call the police because you know, you pay TAXES for that.

Bitcoins outside the law. Would u call the police if someone stole ur marijuana?

[barbarousrelic]

Bitcoins outside the law. Would u call the police if someone stole ur marijuana?

You can do things outside of the law with Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is not outside of the law.

You can trade a pound of moldy cheese for a hit of heroin, or a contract to have someone killed, but that doesn't make moldy cheese "outside of the law"

The same goes with US dollar cash.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Bitcoins outside the law. Would u call the police if someone stole ur marijuana?

You can do things outside of the law with Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is not outside of the law.

You can trade a pound of moldy cheese for a hit of heroin, or a contract to have someone killed, but that doesn't make moldy cheese "outside of the law"

The same goes with US dollar cash.

I disagree. Read more about cryptocoin. Especially about actions that were taken against Bitcoin by senators, banks and others.

[GernMiester]

Mr. Joel Katz........
He has to always chime in with logic and reason.

[Gabi]

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.

Nonsense

We pay TAXES wich also serve for the police service. So yes, if someone steal something from you, you should call the police because you know, you pay TAXES for that.

Bitcoins outside the law. Would u call the police if someone stole ur marijuana?

Again, nonsense
marijuana is illegal

bitcoin is NOT illegal

[Come-from-Beyond]

Again, nonsense
marijuana is illegal

bitcoin is NOT illegal

I advice u to google regarding legality of Bitcoin. So u could find articles like http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/08/government-crackdown-on-bitcoin/ ...

[Gabi]

This article is from more than a year ago lol. Bitcoin is not illegal.

[Come-from-Beyond]

This article is from more than a year ago lol. Bitcoin is not illegal.

If u don't wish to see obvious things then I leave u in ur own imagined world.

[Gabi]

Nice, waiting for police arresting ppl for having bitcoins

[Matthew N. Wright]

This article is from more than a year ago lol. Bitcoin is not illegal.

If u don't wish to see obvious things then I leave u in ur own imagined world.

Oh look, it's another manifest destiny/Atlas loser here to show us all how we are doomed!

[Come-from-Beyond]

This article is from more than a year ago lol. Bitcoin is not illegal.

If u don't wish to see obvious things then I leave u in ur own imagined world.

Oh look, it's another manifest destiny/Atlas loser here to show us all how we are doomed!

Could u plz explain what Atlas means? I'm not so good in trolling on this forum and didn't manage to find an explanation thru Google.

[paulie_w]

i agree with the original poster.

the police cannot help you with this, they're just not equipped to.

[kwukduck]

ould u plz explain what Atlas means? I'm not so good in trolling on this forum and didn't manage to find an explanation thru Google.

Don't worry man, you're doing a fine job.

[paulie_w]

What makes you think Private companies won't commit the same violations to civil liberties?

Two things:
2) When not socially accepted, the use of force is generally a losing proposition because all of civilized society will rebel against it. It's not like the company can keep secret their identity. The rest of society will refuse to do business with them, boycott their customers, and so on. (Unless the majority wants to go back to having a government, in which case, no system can stop a majority of force from forcing its way on everyone else.)

Silk Road may be the first?

[Factory]

Agree with DeathAndTaxes . As long as you can prove pre-existing ownership (the police can only find something which is traceable) and have a clue on when and where the theft it happened it doesn't matter if it's baseball cards or bitcoins.

I completely agree.

The only issue is proving they were in your possession and that an actual theft occurred.

Property = Property

Then again..... The police will not investigate. The resources required to bring 'justice' in this situation are so immense, it is not even worth their time.

[tvbcof]

Heh.  You mean like Blackwater in Iraq?  I suppose that the meaning of 'civil liberties' could eventually be managed down to a point where it is OK to randomly shoot at cars for the fun of it and run down people who are close enough to the street that it is doable without swerving to much.

Blackwater was given the legal right to use force by a government which paid and protected it in exchange for that force.

Is your suggestion that Blackwater would act differently (and in particular, 'better') if they were given money by a private entity to do the same job and there were no entity to define or grant legal rights?  If that is your suggestion the balance of reason and observation seems to me to fail to support this conjecture...especially observing events in the lawless failed states such as the more recent examples in Africa.

[pekv2]

Your cryptocoins were stolen and you called the police? WTF? Are you serious?

Theft is theft. Other countries, they chop your limbs off, lucky they just call the police, here.
 

[kibblesnbits]

Don't bother with the local/state police with this one.  Contact a local Secret Service office where you (the victim) lives and ask to speak with someone in electronic crimes.  Most have a regional electronic crimes task force.  Tell them the value of the "property" stolen is X amount, then describe what bitcoin is.  Please post results.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Well. I see most of ppl still don't understand core nature of cryptocoins. In childhood they used to call mom, now they call the police. Discussing is finished.