Bitcoin Forum

I open this thread because it seems many people have the illusion of anonymity with Bitcoin.

There's a degree of anonymity when you pay with Bitcoin: it's a little more than when you pay in cash, when you buy online, and it's THE SAME of paying in cash if you use Bitcoin at a cafe or in a shop.

But if you think the government can't "spy on you" when you use Bitcoin you are so wrong.

NSA KNOWS you have something to do with Bitcoin when you launch your wallet and connect to a node.

They control each and every connection, so they see from home at n.XX Dumb Street, where Genius Guy lives, somebody just opened a Bitcoin wallet, because you just connected to a Bitcoin node.
And because the volume transfer reveals the amount of money transmitted, they could also know if you have a load of Bitcoin or you are just a guy with average cash.

Now, I may be wrong on this, but it seems pretty straightforward to think: NSA can filter PHONE CALLS and emails, you think they can't set up a system and identify who is running a Bitcoin node and, consequently, users with wallets?
If this system is not already up, it will soon be.
They won't know who is in front of the computer when the wallet is opened, but sure as the Sun, they know at that house somebody is using Bitcoin.



You scared of hackers? That's a better motivation for privacy but still... if you are here now, on this forum, chances are you are so tech savvy that you have a good antivirus installed, you don't open popups and install crap you don't know the origin of.



Also, think the following: if you are so scared to show that you use Bitcoin, what will happen in the future, when a large part of population will use it?
Will they all pretend to be still using dollars? :D

And last but not least... if a hacker manages to enter a computer, no matter if you use Bitcoin or bank account: he'll fuck both.
Sure, with Bitcoin the thing is much faster, but you won't be safe, regardless.

The problem is not Bitcoin, the problem is, and remains, being tech savvy.

You mean bitcoin is nsacoin?  :D

What if I pay with Bitcoin by passing a private key written in crayon on wax paper?

That's good, NSA wouldn't probably know, but the person in front of you would know.
And, as far as I know, this happens really, really rarely :D

are these NSA fiat sheep we are talking about?

or NSA crypto specialists

I'm just saying: if you think government doesn't know you are onto Bitcoin, you are wrong.

Btw, now that I think about it... they probably have a very good estimate of how many Bitcoin users are all over the globe  :D ;D

I could just send them an email and ask for that number :D

Off-chain transaction or Darkwallet should make it harder for them, ew already know that transaction are tracable with some efforts and they can build system and basically all someone need to know where are you and who are you is your IP address

lol they took a brain scan of me at birth im self aware of enuff things

thanks for the imput anywayz

1. Most of my Bitcoin expenses are done from thin clients, not full nodes.

2. A Bitcoin node makes no difference in broadcasting the user's own transactions, or anyone else's. The whole idea of Bitcoin's P2P network is that every node holds and dsitributes every transaction. Hence, the NSA (or anyone else) can't distinguish if the transactions I'm relaying are my own or other people's. That's not their shortcoming, there is simply no difference. Transactions are not linked to or associated with a particular node or user or wallet in any way.

3. I frequently use web wallets. So the transactions I send or receive through there don't have anything to do with my IP or nodes or whatever.

4. For my really large transactions, I create and sign the txs locally, and push them through external APIs.

So, no sir, you're wrong. The NSA knows jack shit.

1. even thin clients connect to their nodes. NSA knows it.

2. when you open a wallet, you connect to a node. This is inevitable.

3. correct. But this is you. Most people use common installed wallets from pc or smartphone. And that's the norm.

4. I don't really understand what you are talking about, probably some coding stuff. While most users at the moment are tech savvy, they are not all coders, you know. And anyway, if you don't use a webservice you are still connecting to a Bitcoin node from your home.

So, sir, better you reconsider:
YOU may be off the scope of NSA (but if needed, they will switch more attention to you), but most people are being traced, in general, and THAT's what I'm talking about.
Seems you only wanted to show your e-peen size.

The NSA fiat budget would be shrinking so bad

just like everything fiat its day is over

the NSA and most government budgeted institutions

have ro realign themselves with Crypto

Maybe, but they are still there, and for some years still.

Also, the link in your sign doesn't work.

If you think you are totally anonymous while using bitcoin, think again. That is harsh truth. I think people are often confusing privacy with anonymity.
We need to differentiate between anonymity and privacy in the context of financial transactions. We can call a transaction anonymous if no one knows who you are.
We can call a transaction private if what you purchased, and for what amount, are unknown. Bitcoin is more about privacy than anonymity. That is a difference.

What any NSA equivalent in any country could find out about you and what anyone else could find out about you are two completely different things. Most people couldn't crack anything you encrypted, but NSA type organizations probably could. Who cares if the NSA knows you use Bitcoin unless you are a terrorist. Unless you start running your Bitcoin wallet through Tor or a VPN it's not anonymous anyway. Search Google for your Bitcoin address and it's likely you will find a blockchain.info link giving every transaction ever sent from your IP address.

Bitcoin is a public ledger, a ledger that forgets nothing, and cannot be tampered with.

Even without NSA-grade super-powers, you are pretty much guaranteed any kind of crypto-anonymity will be at best temporary, future techniques, analysis, tools and blockchain forensics will offer more and more insight.

And this is what differentiates bitcoin from all other fiat-based accounting systems, which are not public, prone to backup failure and tampering.

Their nodes. If some node gets 3000 connections, then what? Regardless of the fact that the connection of thin clients to dedicated nodes might even be encrypted, go through random ports, and whatnot.

At best, they might be able to guesstimate that I'm doing "something" with Bitcoin. Well, that's fine with me. They sure as hell can't monitor or log or measure what I'm doing.

That's not the point. See also below.

Haha, sorry if I raise that impression, let me assure you I couldn't care less about my e-peen :)

I was just explaining it's rather easy to stay 100% off their watch, and it really involves *zero* programming capabilities. And there are even more options I didn't mention yet, such as proxies, Tor, I2P, etc. These are particularly accessible, user-friendly, non-programming-involving solutions that can be easily used by everybody who understands how to use Bitcoin. And they are more than welcome to switch more attention to me, it really won't make a difference.

But let's stick to points 1 and 2. Yes, the NSA may detect that Average Joe is doing something with Bitcoin.

So what?

Again: keep in mind that there is NO difference whatsoever between transactions from Joe, or from anyone else. Joe's node or wallet, or the nodes that Joe's wallet is connecting to, is relaying all transactions (Joe's as well as the rest of the world's) exactly the same.

So how is the NSA going to detect how much bitcoins Joe has, or what he is receiving or spending? How are they going to monitor "his" Bitcoin traffic, considering that the P2P traffic he sends and receives is effectively the whole current Bitcoin P2P state, with anyone and everyone's data mixed together.

You're wrong,

http://connectbiz.com/stories/nissen-k5.gif

Can you elaborate?

If I make a payment to porn site XYZ, then only they know that the particular address that I made this single paying from, belongs to me. Or well, "me", that is... to the extent of the personal information I share with them, which is typically slim to none when I pay with Bitcoin. They don't know about any other addresses I may own, and anyone else knows nothing at all. Furthermore I use each address only once, as is default behaviour with most common wallets and clients nowadays.

I know, if you're careless, you may not be as anonymous or private as you think. Buying bitcoins on an exchange (where you actually do have to identify), withdrawing them to your wallet and spending them straight on weapons, might not be the smartest move.

But in general, exactly how is privacy or anonymity at risk with Bitcoin?

Surprisingly, I would agree somehow with your point. Applications who do not take precautions are more likely to be exploited. Sybil attacks could result in someone knowing your activity and even disrupt the app itself. It is inexpensive to carry out if the client does not ensure that the IP of the nodes do not have a few blocks spaced apart. It has happened one time (http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-on-bitcoin-network/).

Lol, it doesn't matter if they know we run a BTC wallet. Depending on how you use it, there's very little way to know who own what.

Either way, so what?

Its not illegal here and its not even legal currency almost everywhere, i'm not sure why this is turning into some conspiracy theories. :P

Darkwallet doesn't properly work, its very early version what's out there. Only if they keep releasing it we'll have any sort of anonimity. BTC right is just not anonymous at all. Maybe CoinJoin helps too but I have no idea how that works yet.

BTC is semi anonymous. You would need to use obfuscation services to clear your tracks.

For now we'll have to rely on trading BTC to an anonymous coin or service and then to Fiat or BTC with your tracks cleared. Its a bit of a pain right now, but maybe there will be more streamlined method when the demand raise further.

Bitcoin is pseudonymous. Trading it back and forth via various exchanges probably wouldn't help as they require verification once you hit a certain limit or when you register. Bitcoin is never designed to be anonymous at all. It can be pseudonymous from the general public if you don't reuse address and don't reveal the addresses to anyone else. Mixers service would ensure that the transactions wouldn't link together hence it would be quite anonymous.

Indeed, i don't mean depositing to an exchange or any services that log information such as IP, etc. I strictly mean manually obfuscating or obfuscation services such as mixers or instant coin exchange that doesnt log ip.

Manually i'm talking about clever way of spending your BTC but getting it back, like buying hash and running it through an untraceable route ;)

Not sure why NSA would care...

Or anyone else...

Here is the software. What, you thought money laundering was going to be legal with bitcoin?

https://www.elliptic.co/bigbang-v1.html
And it's not the NSA, it is the FBI and IRS that will use this. Along with dozens of other governments around the world.

I read somewhere that when a transaction is broadcasted to the network then the first node to process that transaction is very likely the sender himself.
Also read that peers can see your IP when the transaction is sent to the network but only from peers that you are connected to.If peers have ability to attach an IP to a transaction wouldn't for example NSA peers be able to log IP of every transactions that go through them, can peers chose which transaction they want to broadcast or is this random?
When i use my client it usually says i am connected to a certain numbers of peers, what does these peers know about me?

Sorry if my questions seems confusing, i am not very tech sawy but if you could explain how it all works i'd appreciate.

Thanks Edward Snowden, I never knew the NSA was spying on me!   :-\

use TOR if you're paranoid.

Funny how keeping your transaction anonymity is basically the same process as "laundering". Semantics aside, i believe doing anonymous transactions, if not with ill obtained gains, is completely legal?


Hmm well, yes it is possible for your IP to be logged. Nothing prevent you from hiding it, however, i believe. IP browsing security is a hot trend lately so that's not particularly a new thing to keep in mind. Definitively worth a go if you .torrent :P

Well, I don't know but I think Monero has a great level of anonymity (not to mention other coins such as BitcoinDark and Dash). Maybe the NSA can't trace your transactions with these coins?  ???

If you are using torrents your IP get loged even trough Tor. No hiding is possible.

What about using Tor and VPN at the same time. Maybe that will provide greater anonymity. I use Tor and Hotspot Shield at the same time. I think Hotspot Shield is the best.  ::)

If you buy BTC throught a exchange using fiat there's no amount of anonymity you can take, it's pointless, when you enter your data they'll know how much BTC in total have you ever bought, then they could ask where all that bought BTC went tho. If you refuse to talk they'll probably pay a new law that says you'll go to jail if you don't tell where the BTC are, they'll not even need to do actual research because they know you have x BTC bought from there.

Well, what about a decentralized exchange such as Coinffeine? Is it anonymous to exchange Bitcoin to fiat using such services?

By the way here's Coinffeine's description on their main page:

Have not checked if you can stack up protection like that since downloading torrents is legal here. Problem is the torrent software that try to get the shortest route ignoring Tor.

Some say that I2P is more anonymous than Tor. But I don't know if it's true. Isn't there any difference between I2P and Tor because they look alike. Or maybe I'm missing something  ???

Nope you can protect your IP. However using alternative protocol is probably another necessity. A good thing to use is forcing encryption, that way you're at least reducing the chance of giving others proof of what the content of what you are downloading is.

I am not sure if uTP from uTorrent is still good, but at least it let me hide what i downloaded and that i was torrenting from my ISP. The ISP had deep packet inspection and used that to determine the download speed, effectively the ISP was throttling torrents, legitimate ones or not.

It's okay, I'm wearing my tinfoil hat.

Create your wallets on an OFFLINE computer!!!

Remeber this when you wake up an you find your wallet empty.

And keep it empty and offline. That will show them.

Yeah bitcoin is really not anonymous, but you can takes to improve the anonymity of it such as not directly connecting to nodes. Web based wallets could also be used I suppose to avoid connecting to nodes.

Exchanges mostly don't delete logs. For mixers, they say that they don't keep logs but there isn't a way to prove that. In fact, some services has turned out to be a scam or is not anonymous enough. There was a post which described Shared coin as not being secure enough and can leak information. For the buying hash part, that would be completely wrong. Most sellers would sell at a higher price than expected gained profit to gain a profit. No guarantees that they won't spy on you.
Then you have read from the wrong source. The IP displayed on site like blockchain.info is merely the first node which relayed it. It is very inaccurate as people can connect to different nodes at different locations.

He isn't talking about blockchain.info, and what he says is true. If someone were to connect to every single node out there (very difficult to do BTW), then that person would know which IP address a transaction originated from. Then that person would be able to know that that IP address most likely owns the inputs of the transaction. However, there are ways around this by using Tor, i2p, or VPNs.

I'm talking about the first point. He is saying the first node which process (relays the transaction). It is hard to find out which is the IP it originated from without directly connection to the client itself. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Spy on me how?

BTC -> Nicehash (let say) -> Hash Seller -> Pointed at anonymous url routing to a private pool or full node of yours-> Paid in freshly generated coins to a completely unrelated wallet/coin. You can then exchange that to whatever you want or just spend it.

There are segments of tracability, which are hard to follow, then the Seller isint connected to your IP in any way at any time. You could do this from any connection and anywhere in the world (with internet).

I am not even sure its necessary to obfuscate the target pool as i am not sure there even is a way for to track who found a block for most coins anyways.

That is true. I think both of you are saying the same thing.

Basically, if you were to connect to every single node in the world, then you would be able to know which IP address sent what transaction. It would simply be the node that first relays the transaction is the node that owns the private keys of the transactions inputs. As I said earlier, there are ways around this through tor, i2p and vpns.

Virtually impossible. Even if you managed get connected to, let's say, 6000 nodes. How do you know if there is still an unknown percentage of nodes that you're not connected to yet?

This involves a huge uncertainty. If some node broadcasts a transaction, it will be propagated throughout the network immediately.

The theoretical "superconnected NSA node" would get the same tx from hundreds of different nodes within milliseconds. The information you can retrieve from that about the originating IP is slim to none.

I think he addressed this post to the ones who think that bitcoin provides anonymity without additional privacy enhancing steps.

I know. I have tried. It failed miserably, including crashed my computer.

Theoretically, with a superconnected node, then yes it is possible, since even those milliseconds are enough time difference to make the determination of where that transaction originated from.

Of course, doing this is highly infeasible and incredibly difficult to do, as well as possibly physically impossible due to latency in network connections.

NSA has the network wiretapped at several key points, and has also insights on some ISPs. Therefore, they can know where some transactions originate. You shouldn't assume you're outside of that group.

Plus, if you ever searched information on Tor and/or downloaded the software, the NSA is already actively watching you.



You know SSL is rooted to the core, right? Remember your browser trusts (ouch) the certification authorities, which means the CAs (and governments) can see all your traffic. Even without this, don't forget the recent slew of problems found in openssl. It's perfectly possible the NSA knows about, and is actively exploiting, some yet-to-be-discovered vulnerabilities.



And use Tor properly! Don't log into your facebook account through Tor. Or don't do like this guy:

Any tangible evidences?

Well, one thing I know for sure: if I want to keep control over my money, and protect my privacy, I'm sure as hell a LOT better off with Bitcoin than with Paypal, Visa, Mastercard, bank accounts, Amazon pay, Apple pay, Google wallet, mobile banking apps, or similar centralized crap.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/07/report-rare-leaked-nsa-source-code-reveals-tor-servers-targeted/


http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-the-nsa-targets-tor-users


On wiretapping: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A (I only searched for AT&T).

Whats the problem? In my country is bitcoin legal. Whould not care less if NSA know or not.
I dont see the point? Off cause if you are a scammer person, then should you be scared.
If you are not doing anyting ilegal and have nothing to hide, then is there no problem.
Its not like NSA sit and monitor YOU then can search on patterns, so if you have a lot of scammer business then will you might come into their search light.

You seem to have misplaced your tin foil hat. You must have it to understand how scary this is...

Watching television is also legal, but I guess you wouldn't like me (or the NSA) to be outside your window watching you watch television, am I right? It's not about legality, but privacy.

How are you exactly going to exchange the Bitcoins into fiat without getting traced? It's easy to stay anonymous within crypto, but not as soon as you start exchanging in fiat. In fact I would go as far as to say that it's impossible to do it anonymously.

That is right where is my good old tin foil hat....... there it is

---- TINFOIL HAT ON ----

SHit NSA is fucking reading what I writing here.
They might start monitoring me, because I am not scared of them.
I need to log of and wipe my drive. CYA.

---- TINFOIL HAT OFF ----

No one said it's fully anonymous.
You can push your tx'es anonymously without relaying your IP info. (of course you need cold storage, offline wallet etc).

Yup, but you cannot interact with exchanges because exchanges will know your credentials. Like some said even if you meet irl to exchange btc for cash it's not really anonymous, the guy sees your face

I think I have to totally agree with you on this one.
Even worst, If the government implements a digital national currency and enforce  its use, then they will be able to make a complete track of all your spendings...
Bitcoin even might be the killer app for keeping track of citizens spendings...

Unfortunately, throughout history we have seen marvelous inventions being turned in weapons of mass destruction...

I beleive that with this technology we will see the same.

After putting your bitcoins through a mixer, you can safely transfer them to an exchange.

But more importantly: why the hell would you want to change your precious bitcoins into old fashioned fiat? I'd rather keep my bitcoins, or spend them on shops or services that accept Bitcoin directly.

Regarding the NSA hype and big brother paranoia.
Yes they are trying to have access to anything possible.
But at the end of the day they can only do so much with all their computer power, the reason is it needs human interpretation.
If your BTC addresses (or other crypto ones) are the subject of a major interest/investigation then only will they allocate resources to that particular case.
You just run down to human limitation. Say you are an analyst at the NSA, you are already assigned with tons of materials (Syria, Putin, China) I'm sure that most of it they don't know what to do with, but store it
for some later retrieval usage if required, and it keeps accumulating, they must be overwhelmed with data to interpret but just can't physically do it. Collection is easy, it's human resources the real challenge. There has to be a major coordination between agencies to focus on particular people. Regarding bitcoin, the agencies are focusing their attention at the point of exchange which is a soft target for them. This is why we are having so much trouble with exchanges (licensing) and conversions (fiat-btc-fiat), they know that the Islamic state, Drug cartels etc... if they use bitcoin now or in the future will have to convert. They are putting the burden on the institutions (banks worlwdide), exchanges (companies and owners wordlwide) to do the analysis and report suspicious people/transaction.  Now if some post factum event occurs ie. with the Islamic State, they will allocate their resources to trace back the whole thing, addresses, wallets, exchanges, banks. The banks will be fined, the exchanges will have their licenses revoked and a possible jail time for the owners.

I bet you used to watch Big Valley like I did when a kid, eh?

Oh yeah, I had such a little boner for Audra Barkley when I was a kid. lol

The whole NSA plot is so stupid. If any three letter agency wanted to they could focus on Bitcoin and create a lot of trouble here. The NSA focuses and has their hands full watching terrorist groups and individuals. They have no reason to waste time on Bitcoin. Now, the IRS is a different story. They're only worried about the money and Bitcoin is money you could potentially hide from them.

i use blockchain.info as my bitcoin wallet
can they still spy on me with that?

Going through the web make you even more traceable. However if you can register without giving private information, use encrypted email and vpn to connect, you may be able to negate that part.

Still, whenever you interact with websites, wallet to a wallet, you create traceability. You need to wear gloves for everything and the best is to avoid doing anything traceable. The level of anonymity you really need depend on what you're doing and who/where you are, however.

I would rather create a paper wallet (and make sure that my pc is offline) and store my Bitcoins in it. That may make it untraceable. I think  :D

I don't think the goal is to hide the fact that Bitcoin is being used, the goal is to be able to keep the specifics of your finances and transactions private.

If you buy them offline too and even then...

xD Bitcoins arent actually in a wallet, generating a privkey offline and then sending btc to that address still is going to link the old address with your new offline address. So if the previous address was linked to you, the new one will be too.

You can't send BTC offline, how are you going to send a transaction offline :P

NSA monitors the internet so basically everything that's on the internet was known by the NSA, even your nudes you uploaded on the web(if there's any)  :P

Agree on this.
If you want to do something illegal, it depends on what extent.
In example, if you sell weed, unless you enter the "thousands dollars per month" realm, I don't think that NSA will begin to check your connection, and until you create new Bitcoin addresses, you are safe: nobody can find how you get paid.

But if you plan to do something worse, like, I don't know, importing 300000$ of drugs, I would never, ever use my HOME connection to get my payment throught Bitcoin.
I would use a completely separate device for that purpose, and use it on an open wifi or only turn it on with mobile connection to effect the transfer, then turn it off immediately.
And even then, I would leave that device FAR from my home, because each and every device has its own ID and even if you connect from a public place with your CrapPhone, then you bring that CrapPhone at home, they will identify that it was THAT CrapPhone that connected to THAT wifi and effected THAT transfer. It's like a hot potato.
You wouldn't be safe anyway.

The conclusion is that BANKNOTES are FAR more anonymous than Bitcoin.
If you like Bitcoin because it's anonymous, you are on the wrong way: revert to banknotes.
Bitcoin is only PRIVACY SAFE, but nothing more.

One thing I would like to add is that places with open wifi usually have security cameras and you don't want to be caught on video tapping away on your laptop complete with timestamps. You should therefore use your device discretely - try to use it from the public toilet if the signal reaches there. Also wear a disguise as you enter or leave the location.

That's insanely paranoid even if it is the correct information. Jesus Christ what are you people doing, selling heroin to preteens or fucking babies the the park? Why don't you consider being a boring person by doing silly stuff like obeying the law. No one would care about you then. Nothing could be fun enough or profitable enough to make me hide in a stinky shitter to use my laptop.

 :D :D :D I agree with this, I opened this thread only because I have some people questioning privacy when I set up an initiative to try count Bitcoin users through a Facebook group.
They think the government will finally see them if they join the group  :D ;)
The only thing they are right is that hackers around can see who is involved in Bitcoin, his name and more data.
Problem is, hackers don't care at all about your name when they look for prey.

Because laws are so insanely broad and ambiguous that "obeying the law" is slowly becoming as safe as not doing it. Eg. you really don't want to be caught on cam while doing a bitcoin transaction because money laundering.

That's a bit of an exaggeration but when i think about it, its sadly not much of one. The law is open to interpretation, there is a huge grey zone where you can break the law even if you're not, or not be breaking the law even if you are, or should be.

I'm just thankful i'm not in the US, where bitcoin is in a negative legal status. It's much better in Canada.

I think you are correct.

Since Edward Snowden we know that the NSA practically controls and observes any internet connection. They have their fingers on many ISP's and on each internet cable. So they have an easy time to find out who connects to nodes. At the same time they can read when you propagate a transaction. As far as i know transactions aren't encrypted, but even when, the NSA only would need to run a node to encrypt it.

Before the NSA you are an open book. And when they would want they could hack your computer, in most times they only need to click a button to hack you automatically, and freeze your funds.

I think the NSA is happy about bitcoin. When terror is using it more they will have an easier time.

Of course, when you use Tor or something then it is not so easy. But then... did you post one of your addresse? Already they can connect some dots.

I don't know. Just pressing a button and getting hacked is a bit far fetched isn't it? In any case, all you need to do is keep your main funds in an offline paper wallet. Then have fun NSA trying to hack that one.

I think the NSA have better things to do than actively observe a zettabyte per month of data sent back and forth all over the world. Sure they can target and access many systems, there are reports of US DoD governmental IPs poking in servers here and there way outside the US, but relax a little. xD

It's not like there's a team of analyst assigned to every person connected to the internet 24/7.

Take care of your traceability if you are paranoid and you'll (probably) be fine.

I don't give a shit. I'm sure they know much worse things about me. It would be nice if they got in touch with a few tips for anal fissures rather than sitting back and judging me.

BTC does give you options when it comes to avoiding scrutiny. They're convoluted but out there.

Actually this is why they are interested in bitcoin, to the extent they are. Bitcoin makes it much, much, much harder to track money. In fact it can be used in a way that the NSA has no idea who is doing what. Traditional banking can be as easy to track as making a phone call.

What about fiat cash?

That really depends. It isn't as easy to be completely anonymous with cash as people might think. To be completely anonymous one has to go through a lot of trouble, similar to what needs to be done with Bitcoin.
Where you get your cash matters, to whom you're giving it to matters as well. I would not be surprised if they had a method of tracking quite a portion of cash.

Overall I would say that cash does provide more anonymity at the moment than Bitcoin (because most do not use it properly to ensure anonymity). However, things are being done to enable better anonymity with Bitcoin (look - confidential transactions BIP).

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I would also like to add that this thread is pure nonsense. Even if you look up the address listed on my profile, what do you get out of it? With careful analysis you might be able to identify all addresses associated (owned by) with LaudaM. However, who is LaudaM? Using Bitcoin properly ensures decent anonymity.

If you think that someone is going to spend several thousand dollars (or more) to identify a single (average) user, think again.

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Update:
You need to be ignored for various purposes. I definitely would love being blackmailed by the NSA because they know all my secrets.  ::)

Harder to track. But consider that each dollar has a unique serial number on it, or that bills are regularly marked for use in police operations. Some countries, I think Denmark is one, record each bill each time it enters a bank. That goes a long way in determining the history of a bill.

True, but as long as the cash never enters a bank and goes from to hand, it's pretty anonymous. Of course, there's no way to know when the last time a bill entered an ATM tho.

And why so much fear to all those conspiracy theories?

What if NSA knows everything? whats wrong with that? They must have a purpose to do that and nobody have proofs that they are using it for a bad thing (it can be bad at some point but just to complete a bigger goal that could only be completed that way).

All this topics and conspiracy theories are the product of the Fairy tales everybody keep on their mind, those fairy tales of the things like the "Antichrist" or sci-fi tales, or the believe that just one government controlling all the world must be bad, yeah, its as bad as when all the tribes of China were independent,( well in fact most modern countries were separate states or tribes at one point.)

I opened this thread only because so many people didn't want to join my FB group because of privacy or security and stuff.
They didn't want to let others know they are Bitcoin users.
What will happen when so many more people will be Bitcoin users?
They will join a page where they state that they are not Bitcoin users?

So I opened this thread to show that they are not safe just because they don't join a FB page.
NSA knows everything.
And a hacker doesn't need your name to see if you have a Bitcoin wallet.
Hackers roam around FB to steal ID data, not Bitcoins.

But regarding you, remember that secrets and conspiracies are a constant all along human history, they are also a constant all along all human society, from family to friends to larger social structures.
Thinking that everything you see is all there's to see is just very, very, very naive and ignorant.

And, I don't know about you, but in example, thinking that we are entering a WW3 because somebody decided to do it, quite disturbs, annoys and enrages me. I feel manipulated, in danger, because somebody else want it like that.
If you think they work for you, you are again very very naive.

There was an article I read in the last 12 months where a top official at the CIA or NSA suggested using multi-signature technology to secure private citizen's information. This could be one of the greatest uses of the blockchain.

For example, even the President of the United States (or Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund), cannot access someone's private information without some sort of blockchain vote. Maybe the existential evidence is revealed and at least 90 of 100 randomly chosen people have to agree that it is important enough to reveal the private information.

Did anyone else read the article or have a link to the source? The subject is worthy of posting in Bitcoin Forum > Other > Politics & Society.

those who want transparency should be able to have it, and those who want privacy should be able to have it as well. Bitcoin has the potential to provide a sliding scale of anonymity depending on what you want.

Sure, it has the potential to. If people would have a consensus over it. Will that ever happen? I wonder...

Of course they do.  They know everything.  They even have your Google search history in file.  They got your Jailbait and Goat sex searches in it.

If NSA already start filtering Bitcoin usage, they must caught lot of people who use bigger BTC transaction without paying taxes. It can't happen, so they are busy with other things :)

Sure they do, but you won't be getting a call from Special Agent Chris Hansen any time soon.  They're just saving the incriminating stuff in the event an opportunity arises to blackmail you.  Good luck running for office!

No problem. Thats how it works you just need to buy the NSA when you run for presidency so they hide everything about you instead.

Unfortunately it's true. Snowden revealed many projects. I don't remember the name now but one of the projects was an automated computer system that automatically can hack every computer that it is told to target. It gets feeded with actual exploits from all sides. Only when the system can't do it on it's own then manual interception by humans is done. NSA hackers so to say. :)

Yes, paper wallet might be fine. Only thing is... at one point you need to access the coins. You don't want to be surprised by your wallet cleared before your eyes in the moment you imported the private key in a wallet.

Um... that's where they have the enourmous computer power for. Of course they can't go into all details all the time, but they observe all traffic they can get. They mostly check and store the metadata of things, so that they can build connections. But when they found something interesting then their computer power can go as deep as they want. It's hilarious what possibilities they have once you read all about what snowden revealed.

And yes, probably they don't care about your bitcoins, at least not if you don't fund things they don't like. They probably wouldn't even intervene when you would do something illegal. They would reveal their possibilities so that they would not even use these infos. Except you are a target. Then it would come in handy. :)

You are right, when you are a pro. But i'm sure when you are a pro then you already have your ways of transferring safely. I believe it's named Hawala, it's a financial system used in islamic states. They don't send money, they use a network of money persons. There is no money changing from one money person to the other. One money person only says to the other money person "I had a deposit here, pay out X money to mister Y". No money actually flowing except at the exit and input points. And it should be pretty easy to give the infos about the payout in a way that is similar to bitcoin.

So i think the NSA is happy about all the financial data they could get from bitcoin. But yes, if done correctly then they could not do anything.

The whole NSA plot is so stupid. If any three letter
agency wanted to they could focus on Bitcoin and
create a lot of trouble here. The NSA focuses and
has their hands full watching terrorist groups and
individuals. They have no reason to waste time on
Bitcoin. Now, the IRS is a different story. They're
only worried about the money and Bitcoin is
money you could potentially hide from them
and the shitt things will not be happened if I will
make my transaction and keys private..
 that will be safe enough.

after seeing the us gvt come down hard on people like ulbricht & shrem, I have no doubt they are monitoring btc, potentially all users.  BUT, I think the userbase is small enough that they dont have a whole lot of reason to actively monitor users, but probably are STORING all the data they can, in case they want to come down on certain people in the future.

I think you sir are correct. The CIA and the NSA do not give a shit about bitcoin. They will study it so that when they catch someone funding a terror group with it they know something. But outside of that bitcoin has no relation to what they do. The IRS however has a huge interest in bitcoin. The only national laws that matters right now have to do with capitol gains. I would guess the IRS is looking into software to find out who is evading their tax liability.
At some point they may launch a campaign to get that money, plus fines. It won't effect people who are paying now, but could get ugly for anyone who has not. or they may do nothing. As an example look at internet purchases. When you buy something online you are supposed to keep track of it and pay taxes at the end of the year. Almost no one does that and it has gone on for years now with no legal action. It would now be impossible to go back through all the data and assess fines.

i doubt the government is spending the money and resources just to spy on regular people and watching what they do with bitcoin.

Why not? It's pretty interesting and easy for them. I mean they don't have it that easy with fiat. They can't follow it around so easy but they can follow bitcoins.

An i think they know bitcoins potential. They would be stupid not to take care. In fact i know they are not stupid since, i believe gavin did that, some years ago he held a meeting with the CIA that wanted to get informed about that new currency. Surely they will track.

And you say they don't care about the normal user. Why not? It is so easy and so few data... and if it is easy then they will observe it. Just in case.

If they will use that data to blame you against IRS, that is doubtable.

Most of these agencies work isn't to spy ordinary citizens, they try to spy other agencies and governments so the USA can have the upper hand.

So spying on every single citizen is the best way to collect actual data that matters? Have you watched the documentary Citizenfour? Obviously the NSA is exploiting their power and it just keeps growing.
I do not think that they would bother with every single Bitcoin user. However, I would not be surprised if they are monitoring it nor if they have agents among the community.

Even though NSA is spying on pretty much everything, Bitcoin and PGP are harder than their usual ways. I agree that the IRS is much more interested. This is why countries in which Bitcoin is tax exempt are much better than the US (e.g. Switzerland).

Althought we said that bitcoin is anonymous, we access it from internet connection. In my opinion, today NSA control 95% internet connection in worldwide, so they will know what have we done with our internet connection :o

Bitcoin is tax exempt in the U.S. too. It's exchanging it for local fiat that causes the tax liability.

too bad the nsa isnt in canada  :D

Canada doesn't need an NSA. The Royal Canadian Air Force and Navy keep everything under control.

http://www.omrlp.com/uploads/images/canmadianairforce.jpg

http://members.gamedev.net/nordwindranger/images/canada.jpg

Hey don't be like that. We totally got real planes fighters. From WW1. >.>

I do have one question...where do all of you manage to store all that tin foil? It must take up a lot of space.

That's right for sure but since edward snowden's revelations we know that the nsa is collecting data from everyone in a really big scale. And it is not that they have to spend much work or time on it. They have computer and software and practically everything goes automatically.

So yes, they spy other agencies and governments but on the way... without much manual effort, they collect data about us all.

Your right to think should be revoked so you can just be a thoughtless governemnt mind slave.  This nsa stuff is verifiable, they catch (or at least try to) EVERYTHING they can, and thats why multi-billion dollar data storage centers are being built.  The blockchain makes it easier for them to monitor  btc.  Everything they capture will be there for them to access.  Good luck denying that!

Ok so let's assume for a second the NSA really monitors everything. So what? What's the big deal about privacy anyway? What's important is that right now you're still able to think for yourself, you should make the best of it while you still can. Personally I couldn't care less about the NSA snooping around, I got nothing to hide, if you wanna bore yourself to death monitoring my daily activities, go ahead knock yourself out. 

Until they take the next step, can't prevent all terrorism even with the monitoring and implant a chip that tracks your thoughts ;)

Wrong.
Your thoughts are generated based on what your brain has been fed with.
So you are not able to think for yourself, as you think you do.
You simply choose from the available options and proceed/modify accordingly.

it's harder for simple minds to wrap their heads around how vast (and unconstitutional) the surveillance is.

And to anyone who says "who cares about privacy", how about you post your email and password on here...oh wait you wont! BECAUSE YOU CARE ABOUT PRIVACY.
Secondly, you're ok with billions of TAXPAYER dollars directly funding a program to spy on you? That is so backwards!

It's not easy to break the mind meld that the gvt has on most people. 

I mine my own bitcoins and steal my internet. your move NSA

Why do we have to afraid of NSA if we dont have any bad plan with our bitcoin? I mean, are you planning use your bitcoin to buy weapons or drugs? Atleast we could avoid any taxes by government and banks, so you wont get any problem with NSA unless if you are a terrorist.

If your involved in illegal activities Bitcoin could be used to avoid asset forfeiture if you get caught. 
You may lose your house, car and job but governments can't take your bitcoins if you encrypt your wallet memorize your password and back up your keys.

May I have your address so I can install a couple of cams in front of your windows? I find I feel some strange gratification when I see people drifting off in their living rooms.

ikr NSA just seems stupid to me. no one is going to spend the resources tracking 1 persons everday bitcoin transactions

and make sure to post your email addresses, all of them, with passwords on here, or at least screenshots of your inbox and messages so all the random strangers on here can see all your stuff.

Wait, you dont want to do that?  Then you DO value privacy after all!

It's HMRC (UK equivalent of the IRS) that people need to be worried about. The fact is, thousands of people are already dodging paying taxes by dealing in BTC. Whether they're buying/selling BTC for profit, or simply buying hashing power as an investment for profit, the fact is that thousands of UK nationals are now tax evaders.

Did you know that buying hashing power, and getting PROFIT from it, is taxable?

The government wants their slice of the cake. I'd expect tighter and stricter regulation soon. I wouldn't be surprised if the UK/USA haven't already developed software to start tracking the blockchain and uniquely identifying individuals/businesses.

Think about.. The government buys a laptop from Dell, and associates that BTC address to Dell. Any transactions from that address probably belong to Dell. It won't take long before the government has a pretty accurate record of what addresses Dell owns. If they suspect even the slightest bit of tax fraud, they can take legal recourse to initiate a tax investigation/audit.

I propose a global on-line sue against NSA. Do you agree?

It's fairly easy for the NSA or any other law enforcement agency to attach an identity to a single Bitcoin address. No matter how hard you try, you can't escape law enforcement entities like the NSA or even FBI. They know more about you than you do yourself. Seeing as Bitcoin is publicly logged for every transaction you make, it's fairly easy for NSA analysts to go through and single out your addresses.

It's not fairly easy if you are taking the proper security measures, which you should be taking. If you want privacy, use mixers. Use cold storage. Use a new address for each transaction.

Also need to use VPNs and Tor, if you are actually trying to evade agencies.
Everything is being logged 24/7 for review at a future date. When AI is a reality, they will review all files in real-time.

An IP is not a person. NSA knows the entrance to internet, but they dont know who uses this entrance.

Now if only they didn't have easy access to who own what ip, then i'm sure that'd make me feel safer. But sadly i don't know of many ISP that you connect to that doesn't have Your name, your address, your bank account #, etc. :P

Well I think you could differ what the meaning of being monitored by secret agent with posting our data publicly. Have you ever used Google? Yes? So it means Google have stored your personal data and information about you secretly without notify you before :)

To be honest, I am only repeating the argument Glenn Greenwald uses when he encounters people who say they "dont care" that they are being spied on.

His point is that EVERYONE values their privacy, and to say you don't mind being spied on is hypocritical.

In fact, everyone values privacy to some extent, and people need to come to grips that just because the gvt is doing it does NOT make it right.

That's actually an argument that is heard pretty often. But you have something to hide. Would you let you film while being on toilet? Doesn't it matter about all the embarrassing things that can be directly found when observing your internet connection or phone? And even if you encrypt, metadata is the big thing for them. Doing that they can guess pretty good that you might have a certain social disease or similar.

And you might own a company. You know that the NSA does corporate espionage?

Only because you think you does have nothing to hide doesn't mean that is the case.

For example this carter from vienna. He wanted to take a ride with one of these websites where rides are offered. At the end he did travel with the train because the driver couldn't drive him at the end. When he reached he was stopped by police and throughly investigated. Including anal investigation.

Why? Because the person he wanted to drive with was a known drug dealer and the police got a tip from some agency. And police though he must have to do with him. That he cancelled the ride via phone went through their observation.

Great right? If you think it's fine for you to be treated like a potential criminal whose daily life has to be observed then be it. But there are great reasons against that.

If someone tells you they don't care about privacy at all ask them to send you a video of them fucking their wife or girlfriend and a copy of their ID to verify it's them. That usually stops the debate.

Except they have their little kraken arms in every ISP, land- and sealine. It doesn't matter when they can't connect the dots through the blockchain when they already know exactly that you are the one who is using that address because you send around transactions of that kind.

The sweet thing about secret agencies is that they don't need to KNOW who uses that ip, they only need to guess correctly. And even when they don't guess correctly, you still can be catched in their net wrongly.

They are not the police. They don't need to prove that you are guilty. They catch you away and you rot in some hidden prison. If they are not so sure about you then they will ask you, maybe abu ghraib style?

I mean you never heard how the US targets their drone bomb targets? Metadata. And sim cards from phones and so on. Great, right?

The funny thing is, terrorists then started to throw simcards into a bag and everyone draws one. Guess it is no fun being the fan of a terrorist leader.

Anyway... they know way enough.

thats right, they dont need to know things concretely to "arrest" or detain you.

And once they do, all they have to do is coerce the info they need about you, or raid your house and take your computers, phones, etc and find whatever they want.  Good luck hiding behind an ip address

Starting with those who have left their identity on the exchanges and those who has made their adresses public on this forum and work from there would give them a lot of info. The nature of blockchain makes every transaction available to anyone who has the computer power to analyse it.

Not sure what they would do with it all but identifying a large number of bitcoin user is quite simple.

NSA cant spy mesh networks.

I m talking about a democratic country, not a dictatorship like USA. Well, in my country if the converment raid the houses of the citizens, this means civil war. Do you know what is civil war?

yes, obviously I know what a civil war is.  I dont know what country you are in, but most countries do have "swat teams", perform raids, privacy means nothing to them.

Some of the "civil wars" going on right now are more or less proxy wars, started by the us, using adjutants, mercenaries etc.  They ship weapons, tell them who to shoot, and let the "civil war" commence

Hello fellow jihadists  Death to America!

Is this the thread we discuss acquisition of plutonium and the destruction of the  National Information Infrastructure of America?
I have some great ideas to attack the gas pipeline around the country, we already have the bombs, we just need detonators.





For real tho The NSA dose know. They know fucking everything about you. Unless you mined your own bitcoins outside of a mining pool they can track you.

I've said it before and I'll say it again with threads like this.

If you're not doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about.

Its about national security of the majority of people.

I'd much rather them be there than not, and so should you.

It's a scary world we're living in right now.

They have a giant x-ray laser in space and they use it to zap people they don't like. Cancer is the new weapon of the NSA

Well they may or may not know of every transactions and I'm sure if they want to track they will have a way to do it. Bitcoin is not completely anonymous. But as a user, we still have a way to cover the tracks.

What did the women that were stalked by guys from the nsa do wrong? Why did they go through their calls and emails? Or the ones that had their personal calls listened to and made fun of? Like soldiers making pillow talk, etc. Or American political figures that were spied on for no reason? Or leaders of allied nations? Or the economic espionage of foreign companies, what did they do wrong? What about police corruption and abuse of that power? Don't forget that the people that have this power are just like you and me. Some are corrupt. And some have different views on what is right and wrong.


No thanks. It's for security of Americans to the exclusion of everyone else. And not even that because Americans are also spied on and abused by this power. And worst, there is no reason to believe all that spying helped in any way. Or that other methods getting the same money wouldn't do better with less invasion of privacy.


Yes it is. And they're making it worse. And so are you for not thinking it through.

I don't mind they've made some mistakes with things you've pointed out. And yes you're right, they are massive mistakes.

But as a law abiding, hard working tax paying UK citizen I would much rather have organisations like this around the world keeping me, my family and my friends safe than not.

^ being law abiding never stopped anyone getting into trouble with authorities. But even if you trust that won't happen, problem is there isn't a lot of evidence of them keeping us safe. Most we get is: trust us. There is much more evidence of abuse than anything else. But more than that, there is no reason to believe there aren't other ways to keep us safe without violating our privacy. And probably cheaper too.

Yeah, it's called ditching your cell phone and internet connection.  Even then, you're still being tracked in more ways than you can imagine  :)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Obviously you don't agree with this quote, but at some point I'd rather risk getting blown up by a terrorist than live in a police state.

That's true. And yes they aren't going to give up those powers. Doesn't matter if there are better ways to keep people safe. If that was ever the motivation. And if there was a way to make the nsa stop this, agencies in other countries wouldn't stop anyway.

What will happen? The NSA will have a harder time doing anything illicit with the information they're tracking, because the more people that use it the greater the protest if something illegal happens from the government agencies.

If the NSA wants my Bitcoin they will have to get through my exactly 3000 M193 5.56mm full metal jackets.

I don't see how bullets would prevent anyone from cracking your wallet if they had the processing power to do so. In fact, they would not ever need to come in contact with you.

I'm hoping that he was not just stating nonsense, but was rather just trying to show his disapproval of the NSA.

Well, unless something changes within our society, the spying and tracking is only going to get a lot worse. One should not be scared of using Bitcoin. Why are you using anything Facebook, Microsoft or Google then? Bitcoin is different due to it's decentralized nature. They can't force companies that accept Bitcoin to reveal information if they do not request it. I've recently bought some digital codes, and aside from a e-mail (for delivery), the seller didn't receive any potentially harmful information.

Tl;Dr: Bitcoin needs to acquire anonymity features that would be built into the client as a optional (not standard!) option.

Sure but its relatively easy for the NSA or any equipped group to actively monitor you and track everything. For instance unless you connect to this forum and everything on the internet through a solid VPN that somehow can't be hacked and tracked to your real IP;

It's then fairly easy to get your IP, your personal info from that and then start tracking everything you do on the internet if they suspect you perform criminal activities that fall into their jurisdiction.

Pretending the NSA could care less about Bitcoin is just a way to make Bitcoin sound edgy, trendy, cool.

The real tragedy seems to be that people simply don't care. Most people out there are clueless, they are updating to Windows 10 and don't give a fuck if it is spying central or not. No one of them is going to go throught the hassle of installing Linux. So you can see where things are heading. Windows 10 will be the most used SO in the planet in no time and anything that runs under it will be at danger, including Bitcoin.
People has no sense of privacy anymore, just look at how huge instagram and so on is.

About Windows 10 http://bgr.com/2015/07/31/windows-10-upgrade-spying-how-to-opt-out/. (http://bgr.com/2015/07/31/windows-10-upgrade-spying-how-to-opt-out/.)

I guess Linux is the only option now...

You might want to check where you get your stats buddy.  Nobody uses that shit fo real.  What do you expect next, us to be believe "box office" numbers?  "Record sales"?   These numbers are lies paid for by specific parties.  Don't believe the hype.  Pass around unix pendrives.  It's not a hassle, it's actually much easier than booting a new windows box.  And more and more people are doing so, it's basically mandatory if you wish to have a reputation of knowing anything about computers.     

I read the main post by the author about the NSA knows. My question is: And so? If NSA knows what is the problem. What can be made with bitcoin? Bought. So NSA know that me has made a buy. What kind a secret is this? And why I must concern me this?

I hope this topic is meant to have a sense of humor. The blockchain is there for all to see. And I too believe they connect to nodes and they can probably even interact with you (to know if your node is fully up to date).

Don't forget laundry services by definition can't be trusted because you don't know who is running them and various attacks can be launched against these services (if only 50 people use a laundry service in 1 mixing day, you will not get a high degree of anonimity)

And on your comment that cash is less anonymous. Well that's not true. But fortunately we use BTC for legit purposes and fun experiments only.

Having said that... if bitcould would by nsacoin they better use their calculation power to do some mining :-)

The police would be more your friend because they abide the law. I am sure many people are hurt in one way or another because of association (Sharing the same cellular id, being in the same place, using the same Tor exit node..)

People nag about metadata collection but I would advocate for content reviewal because metadata analysis can be way more dangerous than actually knowing who is who and doing what. Where the secret agencies can cause you security problems while in fact they should protect you being part of the 'larger national audience' , I think privacy is not very relevant anymore.

Ofcourse this is at the chokepoint where normal citizens, or even police working on the edge, get mixed up with criminals altogether. If only the secret services would have different ways of evaluating things, citizens would not waste this much time on anonimity services.

If the NSA created bitcoin, or was able to track it very well, I'd expect that Silk Road would have been taken down earlier and differently.

I don't believe this. Those are bullshit. Tomorrow may be told that bitcoin were invented by everyone and this must convince someone only because was told by he/she?

I think you make a really good point.  BUT, if they did create it, that doesnt mean they intended for it to be used for selling drugs online.  Maybe they came down so hard on ulbricht because they were ticked off how much money he was making.

But the whole story about the alleged hit that he contracted is still super sketchy, as far as I know no one was ever found that did the "hit", or that was allegedly killed.  That whole story still sounds fishy to me.