Bitcoin Forum

Hi all guys,

What are thinking about Yesminer?
I want to buy some miners, but I think it is not possible 20TH miner with 1500W power consumption. Is this scam, or not?

These miners are preorder on JAN 2016

http://www.yesminers.de/en/mining/yesminer-m20.html?___from_store=de

Thanks for info ???

No point preordering now, by the time you got the miner, the difficulty already jump a quantum

English discussion in this unfortunately-named thread: Bitcoin Forum > Bitcoin > Mining > Hardware > New Hardware or Scam (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1126303)

German: initial group buy thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1125157
German: official thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1136178
German: unmoderated thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1138601

If you can't read German, the tl;dr is that most people don't believe it - company is taking preorders for January 2016 as you mentioned, was doing business on e-bay by selling 'coupons' for prices that were too good to be true, their business registration may or may not be iffy depending on interpretation, and of course there's no detail on the hardware whatsoever.  The flip side is that a known German reseller of Bitcoin hardware seems to be convinced that it's a legit operation and now acts as something of a spokesperson, telling everybody to wait for more details later this month.

What about this shop https://www.protact.net/ they offer the unit too, as well as the S5 and the new S5+.
First look, no red flags to be aware of, but they do lack privacy policy  and a few other things on the page.

Has anyone purchased anything from them?

Problem is, I dont speak German :(
If it is possible, someone from Germany can verify this company.

That's the "known German reseller".  Either take the gamble (it's your money) or wait for the promised 'more information' later this month.

Not in a rush at all, nor do I fancy the idea of "gambling".
When you say "known German re-seller" do you mean that seriously, are they truly known and people actually purchased whatever from them and got them delivered? I am asking, because even though the Yesminer looks very dodgy for the time being, we know for a fact that the Bitmaintech products are very real. I for one would not mind knowing a decent re-seller inside EU borders.

They're known - have been around for a good while - but a quick search shows mostly negative things; that can be negativity bias, though.  I have not had personal experience with them.  You can always ask in the unmoderated thread in English - they won't mind :)

Almost definite scam.
Trying to piggyback off KnC's announced Solar devices (the ONLY announcement of 16nm FinFET) - but KnC has also announced somewhere they're moving to a farm-only setup.

The efficiency figure of .08W/GH falls into the "Too Good to be True" category for me. I expect it's a scam.

I'll bet the pre-order is only with BTC, right?

Won't take Paypal or a credit card?

Way out beyond the time limitations for Paypal or Credit Card?

If yes, all big flashing signals of   SCAM!!!

Definitely SCAM  ;)

• 20000 GH/s (20 TH/s) just 1500W (at the wall)
• Shipping Date: January 2016
• Shipping: Free UPS worldwide.

It certainly looks that way. If it is too good to be true, it is probably not true.
How many so called pre-orders will they be able to sum up I wonder...

Yesminer, I say No-miner at this time.  Wait a lil.

Protact.net has sold real miners and I have trusted them.Little expensive miners yes but they really delivered.So I spilled my morning coffee when I saw that they are selling this Yesminer.I cannot believe 20Th/1.5kW.I wouldn't trust that they will ever deliver that.

Give me (and all buyers in Russian Federation) something that costs about 800-900 USD. Even if it is not a 10-20 TH/s miner.

AHA! So they are the real deal. I am thinking, either...

A. They know something we don't about Yesminer.
B. They want to go out with a boom, you know, get a piece of the Yesminer cake. in which case, they once again know something we don't.
C. Their investment department is ruled by mad leprechauns.

All of the above of course being nothing more than pure speculation.

Yesminer is too good to be true, just like the Hashcoins Uranus (I know XD), I hope I am wrong, but for now I am skeptical.

Protact went out of business in Jul/Apr 15. A customer wrote something about it here - later on Truman wrote a statement with poor information about it. So I wouldnt give them money upfront.



So they are back in business... again.

That explains alot.I think the site was down for awhile and when it came back online it looked very different.

needless worry, in the expeditions is pagamente it says that if the figure does not exceed 3500 (EUR) the customer can pay the courier when it is delivered.
so I see the problem, look in January 2016 is then ordered 1 yesminer 10 thr. ;)

this its high top miners no 20TH pretty much

It's almost definitely SCAM.

I'm even offering a bet 2:1 on this. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1148443.msg12096507#msg12096507

"Delivery Time January 2016" -> That sounds very good.

Lets be honest to the 16nm process:

Nvidia:

• is using TSMCs 16nm process for pascal
• rumors: they have already a tape-out
• first product in Q1/2016

AMD:

• 16nm in mid 2016
• using GloFoundry, ...

So I would guess, as long as we have no GPUs in 16nm, we wont see any miners with "low-quant-custom-chips" at all.

But they can convince me otherwise with results in January 2016.

Pictures (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1136178.msg12235704#msg12235704)  :)

mining without network connection? nice!
and what are those leds for?

This a professionell made pictures. Of course they retouch the cables. (=
Please wait aslo for the official Video in a week.

The only way I would believe its real is if you send me a free trial product. ;)

If you pay 15k USD via Escrow you can get one Prototype. (-;

Intake for the PS on the TOP of the case?

 Totally NONstackable, very bad design even IF (paint that ten meters tall) they actually exist.


 Pictures don't mean squat - Alpha had lots of pictures, yet never delivered a product - among other scammers....

Its 549 USD...  ::)

@ll
stay away, atm there is no proof of anything



What do I get?
M10, M20 or a case prototype?
VAT included?

This was a joke of course!  :D

The Prototypes belongs to Yesminers, not to me.

What a surprise

Where are the pictures of the chips? Independent testing at board level with single-chip PCB? Anything other than a picture of a put-together case and fake LCD screen?

Still a pile of vaporware shit.  I feel bad for anyone that is bought into this "pre-order".

Post a video of it mining and post a picture pls. ;)

 I don't. As many scam miner promotions as have been around for Bitcoin by now, anyone stupid enough to buy into a "preorder" from an unknown company deserves the reward for their lack of due diligance.

Our herd is running thin now though!   :D

 Heh they are flogging this scam again

  https://www.yesminers.de/en/mining.html (https://www.yesminers.de/en/mining.html)

 I notice thou they took down the previous youtube video of nov/dec 2014 of a cgminer screen only showing it running at 20TH

they are trying to push this hard on

www.litecointalk.org (http://www.litecointalk.org)


getting no traction at all :) (all that is old is new again)

come on ......if there was such a 20TH unit at the price they state 1 call to www.coindesk.com or doggie on here or hell ANYBODY would be all over it
for a review ...eyeballs for ads for www.coindesk.com alone would be worth a major review

SCAM!

and of course pre-order and of course wire xfer or BTC only :)




yeah but if you buy from the reseller with btc or wire xfer and they legitimately don't get it from the yesminer folk you will eat it
they will tell you to take it up with the manufacture folk...ie likely on the premise that they sold to you on a 'discount' the actual
problem with the no show of a miner they'd likely tell you to get a lawyer and go after yesminer or some angle like that imho





don't speak german anyone take you up on this?

Please create a new topic for companies that no one heard, and no real sale. Just waiting for the people to pay them ahead for a product that does not yet exist.


This is a forum where the most people intelligently

Or am I wrong .....

Topic of existing hardware instead of mythical devices for the dumb

This looks just like another miner that popped up a month or so ago with equally unrealistic claims. No proof no demo units seeded to Trusted forum members as every manufacturer does. I am one of the few who received a SFARD unit and I did my own write up and provided my unit to a fellow forum member for a full tear down and review. I would be willing to demo your unit and place funds in escrow to back the miner in th event I do not return it to you

- 16nm 3D FinFET Bitcoin (SHA-256) Miner
- 20000 GH/s (20 TH/s)
- 1500W (at the wall)

dream on at 1500watt at the wall. And another company to provide pre orders. With all the s7 that is about to come online these not even going to be worth it. I will be glad to take a test unit as proof they are real or this is Nominer at all and just another fake company doing their rounds of scams like many other company's who make claims and fail to deliver.

even with delivery by January I suspect well see new hardware from the big manufacturers by then even if they're only sold as cloud hashing and not physical miners to the public as it appears KnC will be going that route. I also suspect Bitmain will release a more dense miner package within a few months

For those who semi-follow the German threads.. a new video was posted which supposedly shows the unit mining.  As I noted in a comment that was deleted by the thread starter ( no complaint, just that I can't point to it now ), it doesn't really prove anything.  Other ventures that ended up being scammy (e.g. labcoin) had gone down that route in the past as well.  It would be exceedingly simple to take the enclosure, put some fake data on the internal screen, show a laptop beside it with a live view of a pool (in this case they chose eligius) and say "see? it's hashing!" when in reality the pool's stats are from hashing power coming either from a different machine, or even from some rented hash (the video is pretty short, renting 20Th for a little while is well-spent if it means sales).

This is as much commentary on companies that try to 'prove' their (hardware's) existence as it is on people demanding things like pictures and videos when these are so readily fabricated.  The corollary to it is that a company that isn't reputable and/or doesn't provide solid material to reputable forum members (and even that can be iffy - see BFL) can jump through a bunch of hoops with perfectly valid hardware, and still find themselves with people who have no reason to be convinced.

Where is my miner??? i preorder an NoMiner X200!!! 200zetahash powAAA ::)

need more power  ;D

I doubt very much they have the equipment sent a bunch of emails off yesterday after posting and had no response to them. So their 1 busy 2 not interested 3 scam and my theory is option 2 and 3 and theri a scam and only here to get peoples funds. With regards to someone doing an NDA and they don't want to that is upto them. Even still with NDA most wont unless they got the equipment and seems these are just making claims and pre orders. Maybe if we all see a video in action turning it on configuring and then some Maybe would stand a chance. But even pre orders now days game over.

yeah my posts pointing out also seem to have gone "poof" from this thread :)...so I will point out again :) that there was a youtube video on yesminers (now pulled) nov/dec 2014 stating 20TH miner then (showed a cgminer screen only)

and repeat that a simple drag some reporter to your 'lab' show the thing running and chips etc...I'm sure the local paper would be thrilled at such a story..and viola
your miner is validated..but alas not so...so alas it is all just a bunch of hooey :)

so they are trollling again for newbie $$$ here 10 months later :)

(well we will see how long this post lasts)

Obvious scam.

Well your posts should not be getting pulled from here as it is not self moderated so your posts should be kept. Their is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1125157.0 that is self moderated and looks to be original one with the OP still around. Will be interesting to see how things progress, if it turns out not to be a scam will be hella interesting to see speeds, but if their was a video of cgminer showing hash rate than that can easily be faked with other miners added or simply rented or photo shopped.

ok...i take your point maybe i hit the post button and it did not take (then again I'm on here the 'crazyness" could be coming back) :) good to know

but yeah ...sure wish it was true....but such news as the yesminer would have blown 21's announcement below all to hell and gone ...so it is 'fiction' imho

http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/22/21-bitcoin-computer/ (http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/22/21-bitcoin-computer/)

See this is how it SHOULD BE DONE ...just to educate the YESMINER FOLK you ACTUALLY MAKE SOMETHING as you can see from the above post it can be stupid and 4x
the price of the parts it takes to build your own make it yourself version... ..it allows you to point to something and the press goes crazy...see the 'unicorn' exists....
look at all the BFL press fawning back in the day for a product that did exist ..but alas never shipped :)

then you 'continue' to get big IPO $$$ from newbies with way more money then home miners....with the usual contracts that it is risky they could lose all their $$$ (ie paycoin scam)

and VIOLA when it all goes bust like BFL you can say...'oops our vision of the btc future seems to be wrong" and walk with the cash from your fat salary and btc hoard
when times were good :)

I mean GM paid 900 million dollars in fines to the US Gov't for faulty ignitions and hid it for 10 years and killed about 140 folk as a result (they know of ) no jail time for anyone!

So man if you are gonna pull a scam at least put a little bit of 'elegance' into the process ..I mean really :) Show some frigging pride in your work :)

Maybe it is a scam maybe not.

With the current available technology, if you where to start today what hardware would make sense in order to be profitable. All the simulation that I make only show that current hardware is not profitable (S5, S7 included). With M20 you can make profit the first year of operations....

Not 'maybe' a scam.  It definitely is.  The S7 is the only miner available right now and it's twice as efficient as the S5.  These things are saying they are .06 J/GH.  I bet they're using that number since KnC promised their next gen chips will be that low as well...but nobody has seen them and they keep it all to themselves anyway.

Bitmain has been able to squeeze out major efficiency with their chips and when/if they go 16nm, they would have to beat their current gen to entice people to buy.

Neither the S5 nor S7 are profitable (according to my calculations)! What does one need to use for making profits?

Cheap electricity...I pay $0.0645/kwh so yes, the S7 is profitable to me.

With this cost of power a S7 miner would "break even" after 252 days of 24/24 7/7 calculation and after one year of operate the BTC revenue divided by two. This is not what I call a sustainable economical model (at least for the miner but not for the hardware manufacturers).....

What hardware ones need to buy for decent ROI?

pay on delivery, does not mean that you can not be cheated, the courier will deliver the goods, take the money and go, you open the box begins to connect and you realize that it does not work, go to see inside the houses, and see that there is nothing that resembles a miner, then open your eyes.

I am afraid the above is correct. On Oct 18th 2013 I was given the choice of accepting by DHL a KNC 550gh Jupiter BTC miner that only had the 2 ends of the box yet. The rest was soggy mess and most of the missing cardboard slurped off. You moved it you could hear the water slosh around inside. My choices were to send it back (my cost) and/ refuse delivery and go thru a process of months with DHL on such a return (or so I was told) or take the unit.

Spent like 2 hrs with a hair drying (borrowed from neighbor) in FULL PANIC mode ....and luckily the unit worked fine for more then 1 year.

In fact in 20/20 hindsight .the first Jupiter units were packed flimsy ...a lot of folk had broken units because package was so light it was tossed about. My unit was like an 'accordion' you had to carry it by pressing both ends of the box together or it fell apart..thus no tossing so MAYBE no issues I could have had

man I was p/o'd thou ..even thou it worked out (ah 150 usd btc that day......1 btc a day and 6 weeks later or 2 days after thanksgiving BTC was over 1000 usd or so..I was a happy newbie then my wonder years..now older and more cynical :)

anyway my setup below on imgur there is a pic of the unit as it arrived on the below link someplace

lostgonzo.imgur.com (http://lostgonzo.imgur.com)

gonna miss mining when the titans go doorstop

Also as you can see from the main pic..the knc 550gh Jupiter is now being used as a gravity assist device to hold the miner workbench down (its off) lol :)

I miss my newbie self..so....full of hope.....now just so confused.....nothing like opening up your miner and pouring a glass or two of rainwater out of it ....takes the thrill out of delivery of the miner let me tell you :)

Update!
I have been in email contact with Yes Miner this past week and added one unit to my shopping cart.
Prior to making payment I requested a photo of one unit with the case open and one photo of the assemble area.

They responded they were unable to do so as per a NDA, (non disclosure agreement) !

Knowing, there is something fishy here I decided to take it a step further and have requested a friend in Hamburg to take a visit to their place next week and will update with the findings.

I wish I could understand German as I would be nice to see what their average electric bill is. ✌️

don't pay....even if they HAVE such units..they would be better off taking your $$$ and mining themselves like KNC as a private firm....so even if they do have such....i bet they keep the
units and your money

Its a scam....not a very good scam.....for example alpha tech promised 'scrypt miners' for 30% down took credit cards and PayPal  and still send emails that they are working on units
2 years since they took pre-order cash in 2014!

so it an't that hard to do the above with cc and PayPal to get off the ground for your scam......i mean really yes miners has NO pride in the 'scammy arts' lame ass scam indeed ...no style! :)

oh and buy the way they were supposed to be shipping by now from their original postings ....from like 7 months ago ...the you tube video of the working unit etc :)

Wow. Now they even offer some upgrade for their unconfirmed M20 and M10 miners:

https://www.yesminers.de/en/upgrades.html (https://www.yesminers.de/en/upgrades.html)  :o

old scammer trick ....'be one of the few to get your 'improved' miner on you pre-order....limited time" ...the last 'blush on the rose' before they cut the stem :)

It will wrap up soon here now....they have milked it for all it is worth :)

(will now go an look at link above see how close a guess the above was) :)

heh...just read it ....wish I could see their BTC address and then tell how much BTC they have managed to scam....would be an interesting view of human nature :)


heh...just looked at above site at the products..not an 'internal view' to be seen...no chip pics nada ....

well this dead horse is almost done imho..the plug will be pulled imho before feb 1st or so (but then again it is not like they are getting busted for trying this and

spouting off about their unicorn product) :)

Offering an Overclock for a non existent miner?
Oh man, that's hilarious!!!! LOL

most equipment asic scams of this sort do this...."special offer....last chance to 1st pre-order folk" the old FOMO to bleed some more $$$ :)

the next part of this drama will be the 'unfortunate delays' (end of the month) and to compensate we will INCREASE your hash rate for free

or double it for a 'modest fee'

then after that 'sorry about the delay we have had unanticipated supply problems'

then 'poof' the site goes away (probably by march)

they then go off ...make a 'new' imaginary miner.....and web site etc

rinse/wash/repeat :)

It is sure now that the YES Miner folks are a scam!

I have turned my attention to trying to secure a SP50 Yukon by Spondoolies-Tech 110TH
I am trying to scrounge up to buy 2 units  ;D
Found a company in Malaysia claiming they would sell me 2 and I am sending a friend there to visually see stock this week:

Spondoolies 110 TH/s SP50 Yukon Bitcoin Miner
Price: $13,120/unit
Product Specs:
 * Effective Hash Rate: 110 TH/s ± 10%
  * Controller: TI Sitara 1GHz (based on Beagle Bone Black)
  * Controller Board OS: Linux (embedded)
  * Mining Software: cgminer with custom plugin
  * Form Factor: 2 U rack mountable (mounting ears provided)
* Network: Single 10/100 Ethernet port
* Fans: 4 X 80 mm
  * Input Rating: 90 - 264 VAC
  * Ambient Operating Temperature: 0 °C to 35 °C
  * Emissions Compliance: FCC / CE
  * Safety Certification: CE

Thats way too cheap, isnt it?
And 110TH @ 2U? Is that possible? :P

The price is per unit and yes seems cheap. However, if a major player had blocked 500-1000 units for them self maybe they paid half of that.
The rumor prior to release last year was a speculated retail of $36,000 each. Only time will tell as they invited me to come and see the equipment which seems OK. I am lucky to have a lot of friends world wide so I asked one to go there this week. 

They can't even copy/paste correctly from the spondoolies website:

http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/sp50


Dont waste your time/money with them.

They are obstinately refusing to provide a unit for testing and review (I offfered to send a unit maybe not to me, but to any other trustworthy member of the cryptocommunity, but the answer was NO anyway). I offered to pay for it, but only after receiving the unit. I promised to bring them together with 2 of my parthers who are reday to buy some batch of newest miners. But the answer is NO again and again.

What is it if not a scam?

p.s. but I am still ready to disprove this statement - it's up to them.

 2U and 80mm fans are NOT a SP50.
 Might be an SP31 or SP35 - if the units are real.

Any news?
On the yesminers Homepage are the first batch with ~100 Miners in done / shipping status
In the next days we see some unboxing topics or a big SCAM

And the Homepage have listet Batch 2 :-).  SCAM the Second One

Its not a scam, sorry folks. I just got my shipping date for 11 pcs M20 + upgrades.
I also knows what will be released from Yesminers end this year, but cant tell yet, just that all those miners out right now is obsolete from all other companies, even Spondoolies, Bitmain, Avalon and bitfury. I got pics from Yesminers of the Units and will post here when they arrive, if they do ;-)
Chips are from TSMC who also makes the KNC chips and only 1 other company besides Yesminers owns the right to the chips. The NDA should be liftet any day now and im waiting for this to be liftet.
2500 Miners is going to be produced totally and next production schedule is set to end April.
Lets see when the miners arrive how they perform.... if they arrive ;-)

So what's the ETA? You're the most reputable member judging by your forum status to endorse YM so far...

They are shipping now according to the homepage, started first shipment the 16th, mine is scheduled to be week 4, so some time next week i guess.
I will make an review as soon as they arrive...275TH for 19KW power. I think we will see a lot of miners being turned off the next month or so, since 2500 miners at 15-25TH will make a hughe impact.
Even Bitfurys new chip is too late I think...

What is your order number ?

That is the problem, i was reading in the german section for this and noone has tracking number. I think that they are trying to squeeze as much money as they can before they disapear.

German section has basically a very bad feeling about this whole Yesminer thing.

My number is 170 and 311.


http://i67.tinypic.com/20s9jio.jpg


http://i65.tinypic.com/2w3c51k.jpg


Legal wise we have a signed contract with Yes miner and Volker Stuider made by Yesminers and our layers. This is only a test order from us and if they perform as promised they will be our generation 4 miners in our farm.
Still if this is a hoax, its pretty damn good one :-)

well, from someone just popping, with pictures of empty boxes, and a screen with a singe big bold number on a website, nope, I'm not sold. once one get in the hands of someone that is well known to test items, and not pay out of the ass for them, then I may be convinced

As a metal fab company owner, I could knock out those casings in an afternoon if I needed to. It proves nothing, and is a small cost to further a profitable scam.

The second picture has exif data and was taken on 18th AUGUST 2015, 5 months ago. Its perfectly possible they had some test cases made up that early. Taken on a Samsung Galaxy S6 edge so there should be a 16MP version of those photos somewhere.

Few other discussion points:

• Those appear to be the same cases (they're upside down)
• The readout on the display is XXXXX.X which fits and then what looks like MH/s.
• The network switches are detecting 5 devices. Excluding the computer, that makes 2x20TH and 2x10TH being tested which matches up with the hash rate readout..

I mean, if it is a scam then they've at least done better than those in the past. I'll see what else I can find out.

So why a big font with bold styling for the hashrate on the screen....



SCAM.  thats my opinion.

Not just the bold numbers but also its displayed on their website!? So now they have pool there or what  ::)

its a... bold ... strategy? lololololololz

So the new year is here and Jan is mid month. Anyone who got free units to be sent anyone actually got one yet. And seeing numbers in pictures is no proof at all. Id be posting a video of the units in real time action tearing down the box removing the case and showing what is inside the unit and then powering up and configuration in real time and hitting a mining pool.

I cannot believe this scam is still going.  They are claiming they are going to put 15 Ph on the network in a 2 week time frame and not 1 person has verified anything from Yesminer.  

I would think if a company is  putting out 15 PH that a news agency, the chipmaker, or someone would have some hard evidence that the miner exists.  Particularly when there are a lot of people that have "supposedly" forked over $100,000+ for this miner.  I just do not believe there are that many gullible people that would fork out $100,000+ without some tangible evidence.

Conclusion - SUPO (scam until proven otherwise)  ;)

I can tell you a few things Mr. Xircom.  First is that you are a shill for Yesminers.  Oh, you want to know how I would know that? Well let me explain, Xircom has approx 44 pages of posts and about 38-40 of those pages are shilling for LTCD.  Then the account was quiet for a while and now you are promoting Yesminer.

Something else I noticed was that in the first 42 pages of your post history not 1 time did you post in the Scandinavian Section but now you seem to post there frequently, about Yesminer.  Peculiar ???

So, it is possible that I am wrong but I bet you that Xircom is a bought account and nothing more than a shill for Yesminers.

to add, as doggie pointed out, old photos are old, so therefore proof of ownership of new hardware is false.

it`s a scam ;)

Well if you compare it to the S4, which is of similar size and power consumption it is VERY quiet compared to an S4. Maybe its water cooled.

That's a pretty bold statement to accuse that I have sold my account and then seeing this coming from a Hero member account, im chocked !. If you had done your homework just a little better, you would know by now who I am and that this is my account.
Second, yes, I fancy EU produced products and would always be a patriot when it comes to EU produced or even western produced products. I do not fancy that all our hard earned money goes to China.
I have no interest in Yesminers besides I want them to succeed since I have a shit load of money placed on their miners.
Scandinavian section is dead......and I did post there re Electric prices we pay pr KW Sweden vs. Denmark vs Norway. Again, do you homework before making so stupid accuses.

I have been chasing for proof from Yesminers my self, since we have a farm in Iceland and wanted to replace some 3 gen miners with new 5 Gen and we made a decision based on a long e-mail and phone call history with Mike and Volker Stuider from Yesminers before we decided to go with them.
No matter what, we made a written contract with them and we get updates 1-2 times a week on the progress and the only thing I did was sharing a little of that info.

Think whatever you want, we made a decision and jumped on the boat. If its going to be a success only time will tell.
One thing is for sure, with people like you in the forum scares Investors in the Bitcoin network like me away from the forum and it will in the end up with only home miners and nobs sitting here shouting, knowing jack about what will come in the future, since you will never be invited to the table. So if you want solid info from someone who do talk direct with chip and hardware producers, you should be a little more skeptic about your own posts in the future, because the only thing you will get out of it, is that you will never know anything....

Regards Xircom, Copenhagen, Denmark.

Hi Xircom,

I'd like this product to be real, but the way they advertised it, the complete lack of communication, everything make it look exactly like many scams we have already seen here.
Even ltcgear were able to post some pictures of supposed asic boards to convince people to put more money in their ponzi.

Here, we had nothing but a case with fans, and a LCD to see. It seems they even refused yxt proposal to sign an NDA so he can see something about the miners.
How hard is it for them to post a picture of what's inside the case?
They are acting as if they didn't want to sell the miners. Then, why open a shop?

For me, it's very difficult to trust them with what they have provided so far.

BTW, you forgot to answer my email regarding the scrypt chips back in august or September. Looks like you've been as busy as me.

Hi J4bberwock,

Yeah, busy like hell ;D, but mining is not my core business ;-) Sorry for not answering you re the Scrypt Chips, you are right I promised you some info on these chips. By the way, your breakout boards performs like a charm and at this moment im trying to look for a 3000-3300 Watt PSU like the IBM blade one to operate some new Scrypt miners, but I cant find any that would work with your board.
I prefer to write you an PM re the scrypt chips, because I'm done sharing any more info for the masses when people act like morons.

Your fix on the MAT board is still working and hashing away  :D

Speak to you soon J4,

KR
Xircom

P.S Yesminers marketing performance is not existing, but support is, I always get an answer from Mike Write within same day I write an e-mail and Volker Stuider answer my phone calls as well. I hope this is not an scam and it would be rather stupid of them to cheat my company and when looking at the contract we signed, it looks legit...but who knows. When and If we get the miners, we will do burn-in here in DK before shipping them out to Iceland and I will make a pic for you of the boards and chips.

For the 3000-3300w PSU, did you have a look at my 4k board?
We'll continue the off topic in PM.

M10 have odd specs takes 700W why power source is EVGA SuperNOVA G2 1600?

I am a bitcoin miner in Thailand/Netherlands maintaining several farms.

I have tried to do business with Yesminers, i am pretty sure its big scam just on the way they want to do business.
Their quotations and invoices are like really badly made. And everything is about making a first deposit or up-front payments.

Even the address is of a office furniture discounter. I am pretty sure they have never heard of Yesminers when you ask them.

The discounts they trow around with are to large to have a anything but a decent business model. This runs completely on a scam-model.

Lets see how they would react to me want to pick up 20 units and pay by cash.

They don't want you to visit their office or factory (I have discussed it with them). They don't want to let any third party (any independent trustworthy member of the community) prove that their hardware is really exists.  :-\

According to these orders:

100000001 - 100000003
200000001 - 200000002
300000001 - 300000008
400000001 - 400000012

They were shipped on the 16th and should start arriving this week or next by the latest. So somebody out there should confirm if its real or not.

Yeah....well if anyone is interested the email they sent me below (how they have my email I've no clue..) :?


so the scam is winding down....now the 'hype' for ordering the 2nd batch or you will be fomo'd ...I expect either they will now have the 'unavailable delay" as the next part of the scam and if not that ..then they will go dark......so I'm stating here ahead of time....classic scam timeline/methods

here is the email they sent :)

Dear Customer,

as you have probably already seen, the deliveries for Batch #1 has begun. We have and we will continue to post all dates to our main page. If you plan to order one of the latest Batch #1 miners with a shipment in the next 1-2 weeks, please do this as soon as possible before we are out of stock in the next few days.

But great news: Our Batch #2 is open for orders!

For all of our loyal subscribers we have created a 25 PERCENT promotion code, which you can use to order your very desired Batch #2 miner.

It is very simple:

1) Go to the mining section of our store https://www.yesminers.de/en/mining.html
2) Choose your preferred currency in the top center EUR, USD, GBP or CHF.
3) Choose your desired miner and click all options you like.
4) Copy the coupon code YMBATCH2SPECIALYM right into the field "DISCOUNT CODES" and click "APPLY".
5) Proceed to Checkout and follow the next steps.

This offer is valid until 31.01.2016 and only in our store, not in the stores of our partners or resellers!

P.S. All previous subscribers also take part in the next draw at 2nd February. Good luck!

Any questions? Write us!


Best regards

YesMiners
Support@YesMiners.com






--------------------------------------------------------------
Provider Information:
YesMiners
PYC Pylon Consulting GmbH
Radickestraße 28
21079 Hamburg
Germany
Phone: +49 (0) 40 60944227
Fax: +49 (0) 40 328903020

Register Court: Hamburg
Register Number: 134023
CEO: Carsten Schuldt



so it goes......round and round.....asic scams...... :)

What gave it away as a scam is starting a letter/sentence with a lowercase letter.

Xircom, did you notice that your order numbers are totally different from their order numbers? Do you have an explanation or did you ask PYC about this?

On the german section in this forum they said that they have not resellers!! They fucked Protact that have been advertising them to the end!!! And now Protact must return money to all  people that paid for this Scam!
EDIT: and yet they say (only in our store, not in the stores of our partners or resellers!)

On their web they sais they have a swiss reseller, http://www.gammatecnology.ch/

I don't know if they are scammers or not, and i don't encourage anyone to submit orders, but i want to see real information (and trusted reviews or experiences)  ;)
Here we say "if it smells like a scammer, look like a scammer, act as a scammer, more probably it will be a scammer"  :-\
Waiting for Xircom's review!! (or any other)

Whatever, guys. Without proofs (test units, reviews by third-parties...) it's a scam. Sic!  8)

I guess we have to wait for July 4th to get our M-80's
At least we can get better bang for the buck.

Seriously why a company wouldn't want free exposure unless the miner does not exist or work

Not 100% sure since I didn't take the risk of wasting 4000$, but here is what I understand from their strange order labelling:

Order 1, miners 1 to 3
Order 2, miners 1 to 2
Order 3, miners 1 to 8
Order 4, miners 1 to 12

That's be 25 units announced as shipped.

Edit:
I was wrong, after looking at their site, the order numbers don't make any sense.

Newsletter from the german section

Question: why should make a supplier a 25% discount offer, if he has the best hardware on the whole world ??? --> it is SCAM !!!


************
Dear Customer,

as you have probably already seen, the deliveries for Batch #1 has begun. We have and we will continue to post all dates to our main page. If you plan to order one of the latest Batch #1 miners with a shipment in the next 1-2 weeks, please do this as soon as possible before we are out of stock in the next few days.

But great news: Our Batch #2 is open for orders!

For all of our loyal subscribers we have created a 25 PERCENT promotion code, which you can use to order your very desired Batch #2 miner.

It is very simple:

1) Go to the mining section of our store https://www.yesminers.de/en/mining.html
2) Choose your preferred currency in the top center EUR, USD, GBP or CHF.
3) Choose your desired miner and click all options you like.
4) Copy the coupon code YMBATCH2SPECIALYM right into the field "DISCOUNT CODES" and click "APPLY".
5) Proceed to Checkout and follow the next steps.

This offer is valid until 31.01.2016 and only in our store, not in the stores of our partners or resellers!

P.S. All previous subscribers also take part in the next draw at 2nd February. Good luck!

Any questions? Write us!


Best regards

************

So no respected forum member has this ''miner'', but this thread goes on and on....
 ::)

Looks like plot gets thicker with emails mounting up. and sales on theri site with batch saying being sent or shopped no DHL or real tracking numbers. No numbers to track no people posting on here too too scamish but would be nice if is real but we all know time will tell.

People, hurry to order the handful of remaining batch 1 units, I was able to add 10000 of each to my shopping cart. There shouldn't be many left after my order...  ::)

Even the stock level isn't actually a real gauge, it's just a picture...

https://www.yesminers.de/media/pictures/gallery/ym_ampel_10_150x30.png

Also, I wasn't aware that UPS Express (the carrier they are supposed to use) was collecting on saturday.

UPS is collecting on Saturday. Rest is SCAM.

Did you know there are strong leads that the CEO could be a kidnapper?

It really isn't a bold statement, maybe a correct statement is a better word.  I think the others are realizing that you Xircom are a shill and are trying to scam people by giving them false hope.  Well I am not afraid to say that you are a bad person. 

If I am wrong I will gladly post an apology, I sure would like to see the wire transfer form or something REAL like a miner ???

Why is this thread still exist? Can a moderator lock the thread and add PROPABLE SCAM IN THE TITLE or something?

ftfy

I should start another thread on when they 'go dark' and run off with the btc... like a 'poll' or a 'pool' for guessing

If I had to guess I would say they will 'go dark'  by the end of the month (Feb 1st) for sure....

my current guess is this will all wrap up by the end of this week they will go dark...so I'm saying Jan 23rd (Saturday)

Usually this is how 'scams on bitcointalk end' lots of noise in the thread....the inconsistencies on shipping (ups etc)

all come to light in mass postings

anyway my 'guess' is they will have all gone 'black' by the end of this week ...website etc all

too bad folks lost money...but I mean really 20 th?

We'll be on the 14/16nm hype train with 20TH @ 1300-1600W soon enough.

yeah....likely thou not for this 'home miner' with 13.7c kwh elec (thou winter rate is nice now at 0.0927c kwh) still...I see the boat sailing off into the distance :(

(would likely not 'pony up' another 7k (knc jupiter) 10k (knc Titan orig) again anyway..them 'newbie days are past)

I have however got an email on an 'airdrop' of 'decoin" I think it is (heh cracks me up) :)

200000170 and 200000311

Would you bet?
BTC hold by a escrower/multisig
I say yesminers is a scam!
This offer is open for all believers

Did you made the order with Euro's?

Are you fucking real. Dogie and J4bberwock is able to confirm that this is me and has always been like that. Is it possible to have people kicked out of the forum for making false accusations ?
I really would like to have you kicked right now.

Here is a pic of my latest wire transfer:

http://i64.tinypic.com/ejik45.jpg

So you wired them that amount without any proof?
Have you looked at their prototype yourself?

If not, and this is real I think you are very naive.

??? am I?

Oh man, don't tell me you paid 18k without even seen the hardware working with your OWN EYES!  :o
My bank account manager told me that its not possible to revert back a wire, only with receiver's consent.

You can revert if you make financial security agreement between two companies, its just like escrow and the escrow is the bank. But without that agreement you cant do nothing.

Rubbish!  ;D

Hi,

Any open box review already? Kind curious about the performance of their miner, btw the way, TSMC Soon  will release 10nm process, so I guess, 16nm ASIC miner is truly existed, but could any one share open box or mining performance with us!? Checked delivery schedule there should be flash miners in the field already, really exiting!

Dogie, you should, we have PM a lot of times re the SP20e. You even send me discount code for buying more SP20e

;-) Exactly and we have a signed contract from YM/PYC as well.

Man... i should stop mining btc and start mining bitcoinforum accounts!
Make one every week, make post. Give ~2hours/day to post and pump the acounts
After 1year or more, start to sell them!
How much for a hero account? i'm curious! .5btc? ~200$/week with 2h/day work :))

This make no sense!
If it is a scam, you have a worthless piece of paper!
Why do you think they will honor the contract in that case?

Do you know the past from Mr Studier?
Call him and ask him if he was ever in jail!
Ask him if he was involved in the Jansen kidnapping.

Than think again why you should trust that small company without any proof or experience in chip design, claiming to do a better miner that the major players.
They could sell it like sliced bread, but they refuse to show any proof and sell with very high discount.
Why do they not try to maximize their profits?


I ask you again:
Would you do a bet with me?

I can confirm that Xircom is the same guy I know since 2014 or early 2015.
And even without a proof of payment, I trusted him when he said he paid for a bunch of the miners

It doesn't mean Yesminers are legit

They aren't providing any evidence of anything except a closed case with LCD and fans.
And a nice CG closed package to show they are shipping. They could at least show the pallets of boxes, or racks full of M20 mining.
Anybody who'd really want to sell would give more details.

I hope I'm wrong, but it's still very hard to believe they aren't just another scam.

If the bank is involved as a party that may be possible, an agreement between the two companies without an explicit acknowledgement by the bank does not provide anything approaching "escrow". In short the recipient of the wire can withdraw the funds and walk, the bank is not going to cough up 18K because of a contract issue between two parties they know nothing about..

Like others I hope they are in fact legitimate but the conduct thus far has me thinking like J4bberwock is, hard to believe it's not a scam..

Let me explain to you how it works.

-make a product
-sell it

Conclusion:  Not a scam

Yesminers:

-Have no product
-selling it

Conclusion:  SCAM


How hard is this to understand ? 

Where are the Yesminer M20 / M10 unboxing videos on youtube? Should be out by now

They have big "stock" of M20 batch 1 miners, You can make  a 10000pcs. order at they pages ;)

This seems to be quit profitable scam as they have sold many months vouchers for miners in Ebay and there are many happy customers.

Either themselves buying to leave positive feedback, or people happy to get a voucher that works on the site and not understanding that the miner itself is vaporware.

oooo, look at that, proof you gave people money, still no proof that they are not a scam or have any form of hardware..

so you're in the mentality to remove someone that has a different opinion to you? what are you? a SJW special snowflake? need your "safe space" on the internets? want a tissue for your daddy issue?


just to let you know, i lost 6BTC over a simple scam, i was given dates and times on when my product was delivered, etc. etc.
you dont just throw money down with someone who has "lol, preorder now, get your hardware when we make it, pay more get bonus!!"
if you ever had your eyes in the other "companies" that attempted to sell hardware, you'd know that you have lost out big time. these guys, like BFL can just "sorry, we cant give you hardware, brb, Hawaii!"

someone has received these miners? or is it just hot air?

you can give concrete news?

Once again: it's a scam. Until Yesminers prove that they are not scammers. But they simply don't want to do it. So it's a scam.

Looks like a scam but you cant be never sure without proves. There is no actual proves at all neither way, just guessing.

Ebay vouchers cant be real, why would they sell miner worth of 4k€ sell it for 1k€. Also selling history is not correct. They sell everyday 1-2 miners and there is no record of it on listing. They are bidding themselfs.

Their pricing is also too low for the miners. You could ask much more if they r real.

If real not a bad investment. Buy voucher from ebay for 1k€ get your money back in one month of mining, bling bling.

rather scam. Why ? My friend try to order 1000 item's of miner by their order portal, and order was succesful ! Realy ? 1000 miners ? It's seems that whatever number you order they realize it :) Maybe yesminers has got time machine and could get miners from the furure :P ... Any way, its ridiculous..

Sorry, cant take you serious, you are just a nob-player in the BTC world. Did I preorder Zeusminers for +20k $ in 2014, yes I did (Delivered). Did I preorder MAT miners for 30k $ yes I did (Delivered), did i preorder Spondoolies SP20e for 20k $, yes I did and funny thing delivered as well.
So you can shout what ever you want piss ant and stop shout until you are able to play with the bigger players....6BTC...come on!
I will still believe in people until its proven its a scam and yes, then i probably lost some money, but hey, this is the game in BTC world.
By the way, it was not a different opinion that wanted me to kick him, but false accusations about my person...... freaking huge difference.

You're definitely losing this time. Sorry.

Could be, but I hope not  ;)

They delete every on eBay, what happened?

maybe Batch 1 is sold out now

Are you sure? Not scam?

For sure he did not. It is SCAM writen all over. Leave him but please all others dont i mean DONT pay for this scam.

We have been the official Reseller from Yesminer until we recognized that it was and is Scam.

http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160121/diw8d3qp.png
This picture is just proof for that. Ebay account closed!!

So Xiricom what now??

Hi Xircom!

I would strongly suggest that you inform the police inmmediately to recover as much as possible of your money.
If you are still stubborn because you didn't loose enough money I also offer my bet here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1148443.0 to you. For non-german speakers: It's a 2:1 bet that yesminers won't deliver.

Thanks

Beware, they delete their eBay account and every listed items already.

They did not delete, it was closed off by ebay and now it says not a registered user.  There is a diff.

Obviously this is a scam - a very good one - but still a scam. You know right away from the ebay feedback since they are all shills.

Watch out, Shitlord here dont talk to no plebs

yep, non-player, hence the obtaining and losing 6btc... thing you big big guy with many moneys so little people mean nothing to you? do you own your own business and treat their employees with no respect? listen Shitlord, without people living off tips every day that work to make you that coffee at starbucks every morning, where would you be? making your own coffee, eh?

Want me to be on the same level as you with BTC/Cash? hand some over so we can talk, Shitlord. whats this, don't want to lose like real people?
maybe you're going to now with Yesminer, sucks to be you.

so you bought zeus miners, a company that showed its hardware to people when they requested it, gave samples to the reviewers, and sold previous hardware.

So you bought from Mining ASIC Technologies, that one was sus as hell, buy they got a small number of units, showed their hardware, got some out, still many more that didn't get hardware. (you probably bought up all their stock, left the small people that bought 1 or 2 in the dust)

So you bought Spondoolie Techs SP20e, a company that showed its hardware to people when they requested it, gave samples to the reviewers, and sold previous hardware.

none of that mean Nothing, tell me your investments that you have LOST in. what? cant do that? to much of a Shitlord? don't want to talk to no plebs?

your previous dealings still do hold account for the people you gave money to, still with their refuesal to give reviewers a miner to look at, and no hardware for them to show, it doesn't hold water here.

Damn, you almost dragged me down to your level. So, peace out Nob.
Happy mining.

hey not all of us are trying to beat you up....i drank the BFL kool aid in 2013 was down 8.3k and had a 'miracle' refund 1 year 20 days later....(BFL was trying to 'look good' for pending FTC

investigation that ultimately closed them down) ...anyway a 3 week window...then FTC...then 'no more refunds' ..hopefully you will have the same happen with this...but by all means

inform law enforcement....see if your bank can do anything...etc

wish you luck :) sorry for your loss ...should it come to pass

Thanks Searing,

We will see I am just one the Phone with YM owner about all this going back and forth here in the forum.
My knowledge is that a German reseller lost the rights to sell Yesminer Products and is using accounts to spam the thread, but I have no evidence for that yet.
We will see in some days, I was promised my first delivery next week and if I get the miners I will make an Review.

Peace!

The truth is that we from ProTact have stoped working with Yesminer because we recognized that it is Scam.

Ok, but Volker says something else. So, no matter what you claim, you should, as a reseller not be posting anything in this kind of topics that could back fire on your business.
I have no proof of any of you speak the truth, but having you as a reseller claiming things is only one side of the story.

But i have a proof.  :)
https://www.protact.net/media/image/42/21/8c/Studier.png (https://www.protact.net/media/image/42/21/8c/Studier.png)

Good to see some evidence from sources. Will contact YM for a comment about this one.

 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)





http://www.ebay.de/usr/yesminers

 no PAYPAL? Why not PAYPAL? it is because this miner is obviously scam.

eBay close their account, not by them self, and any one here know why?

Another thing is they do not accept PayPal, this is very strange, too.

The most strangest thing is they are out there for almost one year.. and people still not sure if they are scamming or not..
Yesminers brand is scam guys..

impossible to fake... ;)


You are just as implausible as yesminers!

---

@ Xircom
If you contact YS, ask him the question I posted
a few posts before...and then do what el_rlee has suggested

Or do a bet with me  ;)

Come to my office or lets use a teamviewer session to check it.

In that point you may speak the truth, but
a) that would still no prove
b) I think you are a liar in general

"Nicht mehr bei eBay angemeldet" aka "No longer registered with eBay"

Yes, no longer registered, how come they are still selling miners on eBay, and all stuff not listed next minutes.

My first time experience.

And?
What story he got this time for you?

In my opinion there has been hardly any trade.
Just bite the bait potential victims.


unfortunately we do not have any tools  punish those thieves ...

Indeed, if they don't ship, they are thieves, but it's very easy to get caught, they are using wire transfer, so there is no way to escape when the time they went to withdraw money.

If this is a scam, it is a really good one, but not smart enough.

For the record, I couldn't get so much as an email out of them.

does anybody recieved a tracking ID or a miner device in the meantime?

maybe you should use a new account if you want to reply incognito.

I really dont get you. You are sceptic in the german section and from your chats i thought that you dont trust this SCAM and yet you ask here if someone got tracking number? Did you get paid to resurect this SCAM or did you invested in this SCAM and now looking for answers? As you can read Protact had some  proof that they are indeed scam! As i was reading in the german section he was so blinded from this SCAm that he promothed them for almost half year. In the end he took eye cleaners and saw that he is fucked up to the roof. I mean please dont resurect this obvious SCAM.
Thanks!

you misunderstood me completely. I asked to find a victim who is able to proof it down to the earth that they are SCAM. you don't need to convince me. I know it. but for an official conclusion we need someone who is directly affected. the mastermind behind YESMINERS was not just involved in this SCAM in the past. so maybe we can get an arrangement with someone of the press or a TV channel to get a nice report.

Yeah, this needs to come public and make the scammers pay for their scamming scheme.

I know that germany has good lawful system and i hope that you bring this low person down and i hope that will be on TV so everyone can see that! He is everything that this world dont need!!! And if you need someone, than this Xiricom here if he is really who he say he is, can help you, me and all the poor people that fall for this SCAM!
EDIT: I didnt fell for it, the saying was just expression, i just hate unjustice!!

ok, thank you? can you please quote this user "Xiricom"? I cannot find him in the member section.

Page 8 Xircom

OK, found it! Thank you very much!

As i can see @beliza hacked his account and sold it to yesminers, fucking great! Check his trust!

I'm warned. Thank you! Without any proof the miners do not exist.

Too late, most people were lost their money already.
Problem is most of them pay via wire transfer and without justice third party platform
So I don't think so people who will take their money back.

Ack! (roflmao) trying not to 'pee myself'

'good one' (wipes tears  from eyes)


"sold out now" ..heh.....it is like getting on 'world of warcraft' and reading the 'unicorn steeds are no longer available for purchase'

heh....what a hoot..."sold out" (can you 'sell out' vaporware? I guess so....when you 'imaginary items (yesminers) invoke enough fear that you 'take the btc and run for the hills...
you are 'sold out' in the 'delusion business' I guess you could say :(


Ack! Hilarious!

Hi Guys,
Need your help. Im Xircom, but my account has been hacked and I can't login anymore. Anyone here who knows what the fuck to do.
Its funny though that a lot of claims about my person arrived this topic right after my account got hacked.
Its ok that we disagree on things but hacking my account…

Why is it so fucking great that my account got hacked ?
Just because you disagree with the things I say, dosent give you the right to hack my account.

Let me see, I accuse you of promoting a scam.  You follow up by leaving me negative trust.  Now you claim your account was hacked. 

Let me help you-

GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE WITH YOUR SCAM

You are right.Every member must be able to announce her/his opinions.If we will begin to hack each other just to bully, this indicated the maturity of our forum members.

I think right now you are the scammer hacking peoples accounts. How mature is that.
I really hope it made your day, but your trust will just drop from now on.

Thanks, it just shows how unmature some forum users are. But it still dosent help me to get my account back from this @beliza who hacked me.

sent you some pm's with links on how to (supposedly) i assume you checked your spam email etc ..when an account pswd is changed i 'assume' they send you  a notice of such..perhaps that would help with proof

also set a 'secret password' like a 'childhood friend' etc (hell i just checked i did ..but damn'd if i remember doing it) :)

anyway all i have good luck let us know how it works out

(by the by....xircom2 sent me an email not a PM on this ..if that is any help.....so supposedly if it was not hacked they would not know my email..in that it was if i remember right a reply from my email to his email..thus ..he had to shoot me his email first..not vice versa...ie the spammer would know know it hacking his bitcointalk account)

again...assuming is it not the same bloke...but if it is not the same bloke and he had my email .i would 'suspect' some havoc on my toss away email account...so just saying..

lots of work to make up a story (or at least in my world seems to complicated to not be a hack)

but hell I belived BFL at one time..what do I know...but the above is outside of bitcointalk figured it was worth tossing it in the mix here for consideration of xircom's bona fides etc

irregardless of what you think by all means SET YOUR SECRET PASSWORD it has to help I'd think?

for what it is worth

Searing

try this below!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=497545.0

Gyrsur,
Im trying, but this is really annoyin that people cant discuss maturely without having to hack others.

Hi Searing,

I have checked everything, Spam filters.....everything. Nothing !!! I have tried to reset my password and have my secret question send, and still nothing. So my account is hacked pretty good i have to say.
I have send an e-mail to forum moderator and lets see what happens.
Peace the Old Xircom

the dialog was not in that context. Fucking great was expressed ironically. So i said that because i think that Yesminers has that account, and maybe also this one also but who knows. I cant prove that you are you and i dont know how someone can do the same thing, even when u said doggie can confirm that u are the right owner, and he still dont have clue for that matter. If the account Xircom is sold, than also the buyer has all the messages right?

Yes you are right, I have tons of Bitcointalk e-mails in my mailbox to my username Xircom and the same e-mail adress I have used for years.
I have no probem in providing all needed info to recover my account.
If you want to dig even more up then ask J4bberwok who I am, or ask Jeff from smartehash or look for a part sales of my farm on Iceland in the hardware section, that is now ruined due to this hack.

So what am I missing here? Is it that Xircom is a hacked account, and what was written here by Xircom is false?
or is the hack after that fact?

that is my 'assumption' in that I got the email asking for help on how to 'unhack' it....but irregardless of the truth ..yes miners is scam imho and xircom (got took it seems)

so whatever....was the only 'proof' i have unless this is a whole 'jekyel and hyde thing' (bitcointalk drama/fud/trolls/scammers)

anyway....if nothing else folk check your account that you have a 'decently hard' password and an 'obscure secret question' is about the only 'true' thing you can take off of

this

anyway ..it is "next week" as yesminers have said the 'equip' is in the mail...ie where is it??????

(much like believing in faries/unicorns/magic/rainbows and kitty cat videos on youtube...I await a 'real yes miner' with the same childhood anticipation of Santa ..ie wtf no Santa
if i can remember my disillusionment correctly) :(

could make a country song.....yesminrer's you've done me wrong...(add yodeling here).......pause....I only have my dog and my pickup truck now..pause.....(all i got so far) :)

(well actually yesminer's has done me no wrong in that I did not order one...but then again most courntry super stars don't have a pickup truck have a Porsche imho) :)


 

Ok guys, maybe another victim here! Order #200000394, 100% paid via wire tranfer.
It's an M10 machine with the overclock included (100% paid as well!).
Now, let's note that an online shop http://www.gamma*******.ch  has removed the YM miners from its site this morning.
1+1=2 if the math is not an opinion!
So it's not difficult to say now that it's scam (poor me and others). I have no evidence of people posting YT videos where they show their M10/20 working... apart from those YM videos showing a led screen that's mining at 25 TH...
But I'm not worried because the payment method is totally traceable, so if these guys will not refund me I'll denounce them to the police and take legal action if necessary. And I'll do this this week already.
This would discredit the seriousness of the Germans as well.
Otherwise, if the goods were to get me, well what to say? I'll buy other machines.
Let's see and feel free to contact me if in the same condition!
SEEEYAAAAA :)

How much did you send them in total?

1800$ for miner and 200$ for upgrade.
Thats their price, if he didnt buy it from ebay voucher.

I wonder, how you havent made account in this forum before, newbie like me. If you have 2k$ to spend in crypto world you should be familiar with forums like this. Anywyas sorry for your loss and hope you search next time before making investments. Wish you luck.

That's exactly what I've done, registered here and searched for info about those miners.
Once I saw that it could be a scam, I lost interest, even if they look somehow legit and tempting...
Lets just hope that they will get punished for scamming people.

I never partecipated to a forum but from now it will be a must for me.
So, yes I will be more cautious in the future, but anyway I've paid via wire transfer to an gmbh company and that is a legal guarantee for me. Does anyone know which is the more efficient alternative miner (not scam  ;) ) in commerce?
Seeya!
P.S.
I will keep an eye here and I'll update any information I can provide to share with you guys!

Ebay vouchers cant be real, why would they sell miner worth of 4k€ sell it for 1k€. Also selling history is not correct. They sell everyday 1-2 miners and there is no record of it on listing. They are bidding themselves.

Hello are you guys just cluing in.  I've been on ebay since the 90's and that account stunk of fraud.  That is exactly how you do it. You create dozens of ID's . maybe even buy some 99 cent USB cables and then use those accounts to generate feedback for the new fraud account which you are starting. I can't believe you guys can't see this. (especially xircom1 & 2) .

Email received from YM at 19:33 :
Dear ****,

yes, your order will be done very soon. You can check all dates right at our front page. If you like to cancel your order, please note, that you will be dropped from the queue as soon as we start the cancellation process. So please think about it and let us know your decision. Thank you.
------------------------------------------
What do you think guys?
??? ??? ???

Just cancel it while you can, i mean if you are not that scumbag yesminer and now trying to sell shit here again and again.

They offer excellent customer service, according to my past experience,
People do not accept cancelation, especially small lot production.
Due to there is not much rooms for the profit margin, there is 2 posinleilitys according to this reply mail.

One is they are hot selling, so they don't care your cancelation, potential buyer were waiting.
The other is there is no miner at all, they just postpone till get money from bank and then run away.

Third is: xoox is account from Yesminers and trying to lure more shit here, looking all smiled and like he dont care for the money that he lost.

Careful with Xircom. He/she is known to shill for scams, MAT and hashra to name a couple. Together with Jeff Jennings/lifeforcepools/Smarterhash.

I reply to bittalc1.
No bittalc1 unfotunatelly (or fortunatelly) I'm not a YM member. I just asked you guys an opinion about what to do.
I'm very confused...
Indeed I asked you guys to suggest me another trustable ASIC as alternative.
Anyway you're free to think what you want..

You may wait bitfury, they are going to release 16 chip,

Or you can check Bitmain S7, now batch 9 availed within a week.

kncminer no longer to sale ASIC miners for individual customer.

Sf100 from Sfard sold out.

Bfls monarch, not stable, I used to purchase 9 units, 2 DOA and 3 dead at firth month, the other 4 units over heating,
And Butterfly labs not admit my RMA.

poodle63, thank you very much! Just a question : if I order from BITMAIN itself and I pay in BTC do I have to pay duty fees? And if yes how can I calculate them? (I'm in Italy)
Thanks for help!

You pay VAT (22% in Italy) only.

Thank you for the information HagssFIN.
 

Yes, I got hacked, so if any post are done by my account Xircom, then you know its not me. Im trying to restore my account through Admin, but its a mess to provide proof enough that im the real Xircom, so people who knows me very very well, like J4bberwock, Jeff from Smarterhash and others, please send an e-mail to admin re restorring my account to my company e-mail adress, that you know, but the forum dosent as proof.

email sent - I'm happy to help out.

Thanks Champ.

"Xircom" account hasn't posted anything since the password change. The shilling in this thread was done by the real "Xircom", not by the "hacker".

https://archive.is/hOiXx#selection-2989.0-2996.0
https://archive.is/G8Uix#selection-501.1-505.34

Looks like they are still keeping up to date with the scam and everyday updating the order status dates.

I'm wondering do they got physical miner? As my understand, 16nm chip is very expensive, and I didn't here any news from TSMC beside KNCminer.

Probably a script that do it automatically :D

Sorry, but what I don't understand is the fact that at this rithm (about 5 orders a day), since I'm at #393 in the queue I would have to wait other 66 days to have what I've paid for! Peter, you say that I will receive my goods very soon .
So what do you mean with "very soon"?
Please, I'm very confused give me a reason to thrust your Company.
Best regards,
**********i

From: Support@YesMiners.com
To: ***********************
Subject: AW: AW: AW: AW: Contact Form
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:35:03 +0100

Dear ******,

yes, your order will be done very soon. You can check all dates right at our front page. If you like to cancel your order, please note, that you will be dropped from the queue as soon as we start the cancellation process. So please think about it and let us know your decision. Thank you.



Best regards, Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Peter C. Winkler
YesMiners Customer Support
Support@YesMiners.com

YesMiners
Radickestraße 28
21079 Hamburg
Germany

I reported you my last 2 emails, the strange thing is that they still have this address in the email sign: Radickestraße 28
But in home/impressum ithe address is :

Impressum
YesMiners

PYC Pylon Consulting GmbH
Friedrichstraße 171
10117 Berlin
Deutschland

Telefon: Soon
Fax: Soon
Web: http://www.yesminers.com
E-Mail: support@yesminers.com

Geschäftsführer: Marijo Ruf
Inhaber: Marijo Ruf

As other I had a look to google map street view and noticed that there is another Company named MC-Office GmbH & Co.
So I surfed on their website: http://www.mc-office.de/kontakt/ and asked them if they know this PYC Pylon Consulting GmbH.
But till now I haven't received any responses!
Ok, I'm ready to cancel my order and maybe to denounce them!
Please if anyone has other news or want to collaborate to investigate on them let me know!
Bye

There is full thread in german section in this forum about this SCAM. Here is the link https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1138601.1400;topicseen . if you dont understand deutsch just use google translate. I advise you to cancel the order if YOU can as soon as you can!!!

Something is interesting here, every member on this forum who bought miner has order number #200000XXX.
Does anyone has order number #100000XXX, #300000XXX or #400000XXX ?

I can guess they "use" each one for each currency accepted: #1 GBP; #2 EUR; #3 CHF; #4 USD
To comprove that i must do 3 buys, and i don't want to do...  ;D
If that is true, then i cannot imagine they sold as many orders in EUR than in CHF...  :o one more nosense...

BTW, the more i see from yesminer the more i think this is a total SCAM. There is no doubt (or not reasonable doubt)... But if somewho can show any proof of the REAL existence of this miners, i'll send my apologies to yesminers...

I'm #400000XXX (Italy - Eur).
Can someone tell me if https://enshop.bitmain.com/product.htm is trustable? I'd like to order a couple of s7...
Many thanks....
I like this forum!
 

yes you can trust!

Let me remind you something

yep, just double checked this, the logged password was changed on January 23, 2016, 12:05:27 PM, last Post from Xircom was January 22, 2016, 07:19:01 PM

There is no other logs in there with password changes Before the suspected "hack".

So..
A:  BTCT seclogs don't record password changes past certain dates(hold 1 month of records), it could of happened over a month back..
B: Xircom2 be lying about getting hacked.. worst case: could be a hacker themselves trying to pull some "Social Engineering" to hack the real Xircom? unlikely, probably just Xircom trying to cover up some mistakes..

or C: gotta live with the fact that there are asholes on here, that push my buttons

I checked archives as far back as September, no password changes for Xircom.

https://archive.is/http://bitcointalk.org/seclog.php

Yep, went though all the snapshots in that list, nothing other then the one presented.

For fuck sake, I have been hacked. And it looks like moderator is in on it as well. Suddenly they are dead silence.
But heay, it just shows that some of the moderators are working with some of the forum members.
Im a private person and is not shilling, i'm just interested in a YM success sinces I have a bunch of money stock there.
I still do not get why people who dislike what ever can be aloud to get peoples e-mails and then hack. So in this case a moderator must have been working together with the hacker.
I give a damn if you believe its me or not, but i'm still fighting to get my account back.

I was warned by more and more big players to get out of the forum, since its runned more and more like the wild west. Sorry that the forum has become like that, but it has been fun for years to make reviews and stuff.

Omg, yes! Sorry! I was wrong...
This is what is displayed on my "Recent Orders" list:

200000475    1/7/2016    **********    €112.81    Paid    
View Order
200000395    12/18/2015    **********    €2,007.56    Paid    
View Order
200000394    12/18/2015    **********    €2,007.56    On Hold    
View Order
200000393    12/18/2015    **********    $2,195.67    On Hold    
View Order
...note that the last row is in $....

And guys I wanna share with you the last @ received from YM:

AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: Contact Form
YesMiners
Aggiungi ai contatti
27/01/2016
[Mantieni il messaggio nella parte superiore della Posta in arrivo]
A: '************'
Support@YesMiners.com

Dear *********,

please do not only check the order numbers. One number can be 1 miner, but also 100 miners for example. Right now we have shipped/hosted ~40% of all orders in 11 days. So the following ~60% will be done also quickly. You can check anytime you like all the dates at the front page.

Very soon means really quickly, but I do not have an exactly date yet, because our system is managing all the dates.

This is what they say....

...and thx willi9974!
Bye

So you just sent this company $6,000 USD or so without any actual proof that they exist?

I feel really bad for everybody that was scamed by this company.

No adaseb the order I made was just one (two if you consider the upgrade).
I sent in total about 2200 €..
And let' note that they have attributed 4 order #, where instead there should be a total of 2 # I think!
     

Do you think you will get your miner?
I say no, lets do a bet!

Do you know the past from Mr Volker Studier?
Call him and ask him if he was ever in jail!
Ask him if he was involved in the Jansen kidnapping.

Than think again why you should trust that small company without any proof or experience in chip design, claiming to do a better miner than the major players.
They could sell it like sliced bread, but they refuse to show any proof and sell instead with very high discount.
Why do they not try to maximize their profits?

They claimed a high number of shipped units, but no unit was ever seen in the wild...
account on ebay was removed

Perfect summary!!!
At this point / time it is a real good SCAM !!!

So what do you suggest me at this point?

Cancel your order and request your money back!
Set a 14 day deadline!

Many people on the internet say that you are "scam". Why is there no evidence of any delivered miner from the internet? I just saw your post on Youtube.... and ...if you want I come in Hamburg to see the miners working.... if not I want to be refunded within next tuesday.
Best regards,
***********


This is the @ I sent to YM today  ;)

Might as well not even ask for a refund because you're never going to see it back.
Take them to court good luck there your attorney fees will be more than you could collect
Yesminers will go bankrupt faster than a ten dollar whore drops her panties on check day.

Good luck in getting your money back

just rumors!


/s  :P

What do you mean "stock"? "Stuck"? I thought you have an ironclad contract and the miners are coming this week.


On the other hand, if you lied about how you did due diligence etc then you're very very shilly. Having your money stuck is not an excuse for trying to pull others into the scam.

Not to defend yesminer, but from what i understood they are not the producer of the chips. The company that produced the chip to KNCminer is now selling to other companies (from what i understood, 2 more). This company is the proprietary of the design (http://www.alchip.com, correct me if i'm wrong)...AGAIN, not defending Yesminer, was just pointing out this fact.

It will need more investigation, but I wasn't aware that KNC subcontracted or bought the design of the chip.

Still, Yesminer are not doing anything to convince us they are legit, even if it should be realy easy to do since they are supposed to be shipping the units right now.
If miners were shipping since last week, we should at the very least see a few real pictures of the miners, maybe an unboxing video or  anything that could confirm they shipped something to a customer.

So the rule of "scammers until proven legit" still applies until they run away with the money they were able to collect.



On a side note, as far as I can tell, Xircom, before the password change was the same guy who ordered from me in 2015, got a MAT excalibur hashing board fixed by me, and exchanged a few emails with me about different projects back in september.

And I trust him when he says he wired them a large amount for miners.

It doesn't make Yesminer legit or trustworthy at all.

I just hope he wasn't scammed like others or he'll be able to get his money back.

I am starting to lean toward this whole yesminer thing being a scam as well. I have been emailing them asking for any kinds of pictures or documentation with recent dates on them to confirm that these units even exist, and their yesminer rep simply refuses. I told him that I would be more than willing to try a product out and if it ran as spec'ed I would pay him the full asking price + buy numerous additional units from him. The only reason I would even ask is because I am backed by 150 year old company and trust is everything to us. Also I mentioned that their whole M20 manufacturing operation has little to no details or info publicly available. Their registered address is for a Starbucks in Berlin. When I mentioned that Yesminer has a lot of scandalous rumors with little to no evidence of unit production, their rep stated, "you can check all pictures in our store, and of course all videos in our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzO4G1XrKqDT96WGTLtlIig

Many people talking about funny stuff in the forums, but nobody have ordered any miner yet. We do not care about all that trolling people."

I deal with a lot of manufacturing companies and this is the first that has ever used "trolling" or any variation of that word, meaning that have little to no profession etiquette. Makes me thing that this is a scam even more. If these things are in fact true, they would be amazing, but I don't see how a extremely small manufacturing company has a product that is leaps and bounds ahead of some of the major manufacturers (BITMAIN Spondooliestech).

If this is true, I'll be the first to bite at the deal.

Ok, I've sent a total refund request to YM giving a deadline of six working days, after which If they'll take time or other things I will start a legal action against them.
Seeya!

I don't mean to kick you when you're down but even 1 minute more spent on this is a waste of your time.  You don't take legal action against a scammer. There is no legal action to take. Its like trying to sue someone who lives on the street. It can't be done and even if you were to obtain some judgment against a specific name - there is nothing or no one to ever collect. You couldn't pull this off in the business world let alone a BTC world.  All you can do is spread the word but don't waste your time with anything else.

lol lol lol

im sorry to laugh but I just viewed the youtube videos for the first time.

you can close the thread off as it is official now its a scam. anyone stupid enough to fall for those "whatevers" certainly deserves to lose their money.

those weren't even believable as miners. I would have perhaps spent $100 as a experimental PC case but thousands believing that was a miner is just ridiculous.

****

- Comments closed off ?  they were already prepared for the scam alert warnings

- the fancy set ?   why ? a company like this would show in lab pics and would never spend extra
money or time on a set that looks like a TV commercial. that's phase 3

- no humans / no voice / no noise / no hands / no identifiable information

- a pathetic set , a sprayed painted piece of folded metal with home depot rivets, a laptop and a 4 in LCD screen clearly hooked to nothing.


THIS IS ALL THE WORK OF 1 MAN.

Sorry guys but if you fell for this you're a fkn idiot.  That case with LCD is a hackaday sunday project.

Did you get a response from Yesminers?

Sorry for folk's loss here....but they did say Jan 2016 and this is the last day. That's all she wrote folks

.....

again sorry for your loss....I got scam'd by BFL in 2013..did by 'luck' get a refund (3 week window 1 year 20 days later to try and stop FTC coming..it did not work...and refunds stopped)

so yeah....been there...hopefully someone can 'track this guy down' and you can get your btc back ......

YesMiners
Aggiungi ai contatti
29/01/2016
[Mantieni il messaggio nella parte superiore della Posta in arrivo]
A: '**************'
Support@YesMiners.com

Dear **********,

I have forwarded your request to our accounting which will proceed your refund soon. When it is done, you will get a message. But please note that it will take a few days.

Best regards, Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Peter C. Winkler
YesMiners Customer Support
Support@YesMiners.com

YesMiners

This is the answer.

I did a quick google translate of the german forum regarding YM, and it seems they have way more informations there, speaking of potential bankrupcy, deliberate fraudulent actions from the owner, and maybe company having been sold t someone else.

Too much for me to read since I never learned German, so if someone who understand german could make an update in english, I believe those who sent some money there would appreciate.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1138601.1480

Its a scam. Its over.  You do not accept excuses from people scamming. He could have told you his dog died. These are the typical winding downs of a scam.  Please stop leading people on with excuses and potential reasons for YM to not deliver. It's a freaking scam and you are just playing with people and making excuses.

There is no accounting dept

There is no peter winkler

For the last time YM is a scam by one person..  Fake ebay, fake youtube videos showing nothing but a 3 piece set. Fake invoices, fake website, fake technology 20ths miners that run on 1 watt ... Please let's not have another desperate user fall for this.

Next week we are going to have someone reply with tracking number for a box headed to west africa.

All you fools that lost money should be spending your time spreading the word on the internet. Not here where everybody knows its a scam. 

Close their youtube. Spread some messages.

Here you guys are wasting time on nothing while the one man running this scam is taking orders off a PC case he posted on youtube and some fake invoices he mailed to xircom.

We are discussing if actually anyone did buy anything from them because no one is complaining and the 2-3 peoples that do dont have any proof that they bought anything also the bill postet on this thread is no proof its from the 14th of January with the correct iban and bic but showes Bankkode BL
wich stands for some french island also the user that posted that was hacked as it seems also again the date would be crazy not possible in anyway to recive the money produce the miners and deliver them in time dont remember what his delivery date was but it doesnt match
in case he is not a shill he has to report them to dk and german authorities with the accusation of fraud 

only sales that are known are from eBay but still nobody complaining so we are discussing if they moved money around between them self to let it look more legit before their eBay account and paypal got closed

also we where discussing what the involvement of the user Truman is why he became a reseller supported them and then suddenly changed his mind and also if he had any preorders wich he says he had and is going to refund his clients in a couple of days but again this doesn't add up because nobody is complaining if you search the forum you will find dozens of threads about his company where people are calling him a scammer  for not delivering on time and refunding to late etc etc and they are complaining in the range of a couple of 100 Euros but when they order for a couple of k nobody is whining ?

the other discussen is if the choose the company GmbH = to a LLC in the Us for protection and to look large and no if this is a proofen scam their is no protection what so ever

also the company has a new owner and a new adress the new adress is some mailbox in Berlin

also they claim to have shipped a mix of around 400 10Ths and 20Ths machines by now and no spyke in the hashrate of a few Phs

Bottom line anyone that is still thinking this maybe is ledgit its not its one of the most stupidest scam ever in Crypto History

If you actually wired Money to them or Btc or any thing get a german user to help you and report them to the autoritys

Thanks, I never sent a single cent to those YM, I was just curious how far german (local) users were in the investigation about this scam, and some english speaking people who got scammed may need the updates.

I don't mind if I'll receive the money back or not.... justice will be done from my side...starting by denouncing them to the authorities. My refund deadline will end on the next thursday and then I will go to the Italian police and will inform German authorities.
If justice will fail, everyone in this world could come a scammer! I repeat that I made a wire bank tranfer, so I'm courious about what they'll do. For sure I will learn something important.

What do you meen with the italian police ? Where is the Denmark invoice coming from is that what you received from YM

The one from Denmark is Xircom I think. Who was supposed to receive the miners by the end of the week that just ended.

Thanks J4bberwock for trying to tell these guys who I really am and im just an investor who has a shit lot of money placed at YM.
Moderator of the forum is dead silence, showing he is working with some of the guys in the forum.
The Transfer note I have shared with you all is from my Company through my Bank Nordea, to YM.
I just wrote YM yesterday asking what the hell is going on and that I lost my account to moderators and a hacker just because they thought I was part of YM. But as you know, the story about me is different that what some few guys think and that brings them the right to hack my account.
I ask those same guys if it possible to get my account back, since it ruind a sale of some of my miners and let a lot  of new bitcoin miners with out a clue what happend to the miners they wanted to buy. Sorry that they have to experience this from the community.

J4bberwock, You know my company and that I bought a lot of breakout boards from you and had to return some because of a switch problem that you solved very fast for me. I ordered J4bberwock`s boards and extra long cables in 2 big shipments, those boards are brilliant with my S5 farm and SP20 farm.
Just so you all know, I have tried to get theymos (Moderator) to reactivate my account, but when he discovered (I think) that I really was the rightfull owner of the account he just turned in silence instead of dealing with the problem that some moderators are working with hackers in the forum.....
If the guy who hacked me would give me my account back i will not make a mess out of it and just leave you alone. Im a bitcoin believer and just got a very big punch in my face just for saying what I think and made me think about starting saying bad things about Bitcoin instead of being a supporter.

I still do not fancy the idea that Moderators are working with hackers in this forum, its a shame and a bad thing for the bitcoin society.

Ah ok

In case this is true pm me and I will help you get contact to the right Authorities in Germany

I will.

How exactly did the moderators hack you, do you have any proof of that or any of your other deluded ramblings? What you need to prove the account ownership is a signed message from a bitcoin address that posted in this forum some time ago. Do you have such an address? Did you send a signed message to theymos? I don't think he's interested in your conspiracy theories. If you don't have solid proof of being the original account owner - SOL. Anybody can create Xircom2 or Xircom3456 and start begging for the account to be handed over to them.

How did they get my e-mail ?
You do not know what proof I have send and the only thing you do is bullying. I did send a sigend meassage, but he could not use the BTC adress since I have never posted my BTC adress...
But he got all my info re. correspondance with other forum members, forum members know my company e-mail adress and could send it to him as proof.... Stil do not get other people right to hack other peoples accounts just because they dislike what ever is said...

Of course I don't know what you sent, that's why I asked. So you don't have a known address and can't recover the account. That doesn't make everybody else guilty.

Why do you think "they" got your e-mail? Your password was changed, not reset via e-mail. Maybe you got keylogged, or brute forced, or perhaps you're just making up this whole conspiracy.

https://bitcointalk.org/seclog.php

https://meem.link/i/a/rtgTq.jpg
Edited 2020-11-28 to fix a broken image

It dosent matter what you think as long as I can proof that im the owner of Xircom and has always been Xircom. Why dodnt you just look back and see the posts from other members who knows me privately… they know me and my identity. Why the hell are you not just looking at my posts in ex. Selling mining gear or my talk about breakoutboards or reviews of SP20 or even pics of my SP20 farm. You just so not want to acknowledge that I'm am who I claim to be

So you're Xircom huh? you lost your account on the 23rd yes? and after that you signed up for Xircom2 on the 24th.

So, do you claim all posts on here as Xircom? Therefore you are Shilling for YM? and being the Shitlord who thinks unfavourably to any hobbyists miners and bitcoin enthusiasts because you invested 10s of thousands into hardware?

Or are you going to say "No that was Beliza who did that!"?

not sure I'm following this but could be yes miners if a scam is the ones that swiped your account

anyway irregardless before the 'drama' here did deal with xircom (orig) and had no issues...but without a 'moderator' taking the time to jump in on proof (ie his secret question etc from way back say and other info) you probably should just (xircom2) make a new identity and put it all behind you

but the real issue is ..imho.....yesminers being a scam...they likely used your account....

anyway most of here I think (I'm assuming) we will see this all 'wrap up here soon' on this thread as the scammers cover their tracks as 'law enforcement' in various countries etc gets involved.....then say in 2 weeks maybe 'deafening silence' on all fronts ..here/pm's/emails/the web site etc etc etc

its how such scams work

but if this happened to me ...I'd just make a completely new ID tell whom you want to you were orig xircom..but if the moderators won't help you ...I'm afraid the bitcointalk has run off with the yes miner scammers (or my theory)...not sure can you change your name on an account like xircom2? or do you have to start over...I think you may have to start over?

but that is my view/and what I'd do .just move on from both ..yes miner loss and pm xircom name loss

anyway keep in touch

Searing

As i read the posts here i have tried to contact the support page looking for any proof of existense for the yesminer but as you can read in my mail to them and the respons is there not coöperating on any way. So scam and i'm not buying. To bad and i feel sorry for the guys who did buy yesminers. I hope this guy has a short and misserable life!!!

Hi there again...

Is there not a picture that you can send me from a couple of yesminers just to make sure? Maybe that will make my mind up ;)

Greets

Op 1 feb. 2016 om 00:14 heeft YesMiners <Support@YesMiners.com> het volgende geschreven:

Dear Marvin,

if someone want to make a video, he will. But if anybody thinks a video will be made by others, no one will make a video ;)

We only have the media available posted at the page, sorry. Maybe later, when Batch #1 is delivered and we have time again.



Best regards, Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Peter C. Winkler
YesMiners Customer Support
Support@YesMiners.com

YesMiners
Friedrichstraße 171
10117 Berlin
Germany


Do you have any questions or want to tell us something? Please reply directly to this e-mail. Thank you!

Sie haben Fragen oder möchten uns etwas mitteilen? Antworten Sie bitte direkt auf diese E-Mail (Reply). Vielen Dank!




-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Marvin Verbeek [mailto:verbeek_marvin@hotmail.com]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Januar 2016 19:27
An: YesMiners <Support@YesMiners.com>
Betreff: Re: AW: Contact Form

Hi,

The problem is that there is much contrevercie about if you guys are real or not cause the first batch has been
dispatched and there is no youtube or other kind of review about the miners. I'm interested in buying a lot but if you look at my site of perspective i have to have proof that the yesminer really exist and i want so see it working instead of only the video's you made for the website. That's what keeping me from buying. Do you have other proof like videos with the miners in progress?

Greets,

Marvin

Op 31 jan. 2016 om 00:53 heeft YesMiners <Support@YesMiners.com> het volgende geschreven:

Dear Marvin,

I'm sorry, we don't have a retail store. For legal reasons here in Germany you can purchase and pay your miners only in our online store.



Best regards, Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Peter C. Winkler
YesMiners Customer Support
Support@YesMiners.com

YesMiners
Friedrichstraße 171
10117 Berlin
Germany


Do you have any questions or want to tell us something? Please reply directly to this e-mail. Thank you!

Sie haben Fragen oder möchten uns etwas mitteilen? Antworten Sie bitte direkt auf diese E-Mail (Reply). Vielen Dank!



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: YesMiners [mailto:kontakt@yesminers.de]
Gesendet: Samstag, 30. Januar 2016 19:30
An: kontakt <kontakt@yesminers.de>
Betreff: Contact Form



Name: Marvin
Email: verbeek_marvin@hotmail.com
Telephone:

Comment: Hi there i'n interested in the yesminers m20 with upgrade. But is there a way that i can purchase them directly from you. So that i can go to your place to see it in action and the purchase it?

Greets,

Marvin

boy that guy is really really trying hard not to sell you anything...i mean a quick cell phone video of the 'units' sitting about pop one open and the money from you is blamo right there
and a 'sure sale' so much a scam ..hell he (for the sale) would prob say sure ..fax you a NDA (non-disclosure agreement) you sign send back he is protected privacy wise you have proof and he has your money!.......

sheesh ...hope you are just messing with him and DID NOT get any (pretty sure you did not)

What matters is that your story has more holes than a box of donuts, so maybe that's why you're not getting your account back.

BTW I did look at Xircom's posts. 20+ pages of pumping Litecoindark stands out, as well as shilling for a few other scams. That doesn't prove anything either way and is irrelevant to the alleged account hack.

Well hell no i thank myself for not purchasing one but i hope this guy gets a very good sickness that can't be cured if am alowed to say so. But somehow to bad that the yesminer does not exist cause it would have been a big welcome but as they say if it's to good to be true then.......

Aint it funny that the negative feedback I gave you suddenly is gone from your account.... probably you are the one shilling working with the hacker and moderator. Just a very funny coincedence that all your negative feedbacks just gone.
You are the scammer and bad for the whole community. I feel sorry for Bitcointalk that people like you are around.

I think your paranoia is getting worse, consider seeing a doctor.

Back on topic, have you received your miners last week as you were adamant you would? A tracking number at least?

Exactly! Lets see some real evidence on this hardware

Wouldn't it be funny if Xircom = Yesminers .. who knows I've been right about everything in this thread so far.  I got .05 coin either way that says Yesminer = 1 person. After seeing those youtube videos I still can't stop laughing.

My last email guys:

RE: AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: Contact Form
*************
09:23
A: YesMiners
Good morning,
I haven't any trace yet of my requested refunds.
Can you update me please?
I'm sorry but things seem going bad, I just want let you know that if I will not have my money back within thursday, I will be constrained to take legal measures (police and legal actions) against your company.
Sorry, but I have to be clear.
Otherwise, I wish you a good job.
Best regards,
Ing. ************

Sadly I think you will find it's hard to go after these scam companies.  They set up with a rendering and try to sell miners.  NEVER buy a miner based off a rendering from unknown company.

Best of luck with legal action, but I think you will find them hard to go after.   Most likely they ride into sunset with most of money sent to them.  I almost got taken by one once terrahash, but paypal saved me.  They had looked great at one time... but slowly it fell apart and they rode away with most of money.  A few sued don't know if they actually got anything.  Winning a case and getting money are also two different things.

Any open box video review yet?! wondering!

Guys, I suggest closing this topic, it drags newbies to this scam, and gives it free advertisement. Some people read the title, and just google the company right away.

If you insist discussing this topic, maybe opening a new topic titled "victims of Yesminer", and over there, we can discuss the number of those victims, the legal measures they took, and how far they got with their refund cases.

Creating multiple threads can only increase confusion. PM the OP of this thread with a suggestion for a better title but you can also enter your own title when replying and take care of google that way.

AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: AW: Contact Form
YesMiners
Aggiungi ai contatti
02/02/2016
[Mantieni il messaggio nella parte superiore della Posta in arrivo]
A: '**********'
Support@YesMiners.com
Da:    YesMiners (Support@YesMiners.com) Questo mittente è nel tuo elenco Posta protetta.
Data invio:   martedì 2 febbraio 2016 21:08:42
A:   '**********'

Dear ************,

please allow our accounting a few days to proceed your refund. When it is done, you will get a message.

Best regards, Mit freundlichen Gr??en

-----------------------------------------------------

Tomorrow is their last day! I won't reply to them.

If someone needs a lawyer in Germany.
I know one who is something familiar with BTC and has observed yesminers already for some time.

Just an update from me.
2 days ago I asked for a complete refund of +18k Euro and got excact same answer from Mr. Winkler as Marvin.
My laywers are already informed and YM has until tomorrow to send us our refund.
Time will tell, but I think its going to be a long haul... >:(
According to insite knowledge from our hosting center on iceland YM does actually has reserved space for 500 pc M20 miners...
this confuses me big time.
R
Xircom

How much were they charged to reserve the space?   
Bet it wasn't a lot even if it was 20-30 thousand it just the cost of doing business for the scammers.
The more of the little things they do make the scam look legit,,

They reserved hosting space and electrical power.
Doesn't mean they will put M20 in. Maybe some Bitfury, or even some 28nm gear from Bitmain/Avalon, who knows.
What is pretty sure now is if they put some hardware there, it'll be bought with money stolen from customers.

It's very unlikely to happen, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they refund a few customers who publicly posted here to get some advertising just like BFL did.
"you see, we are honest, we even send refunds upon request if you don't want to wait for the delivery of our awesome miners"

could be you are right that my money is being used to sponsor those miners.
I still wonder what those 19 PH that was released on the network yesterday came from? Bitfury are not ready yet?

Did you get my PM?

Are you sure about that?
Unverifiable word says they are mining with 16nm right now.

One thing's for sure, it isn't, and never will be, Yesminer.

not PM, email, but yes, answer on its way later tonight

I do not think bitfury are ready since then BW should be able to supply miners as well then..

They'll not refund anyone guys. On Monday I'll have an appointment with the postal police office ...it should have been today but I'm busy.
I just wanna say a couple of things:
1) We, YM victims should act together
2)Let's Post videos on youtube to unveil the truth and spread the thing on other forums.
I'll try my best.
Have a nice day.

Hi Guys,

One happy man here. I got my account back… but unfortunate with negative trust 😡
Still no news of our miners or refund from YM….

Congrats Shitlord! and my condolences about that bitter taste in your mouth with YM.. Since I've bitten that bad apple before..

There is countless posts in this thread from reputable members about Yesminer being a scam. I can't believe some of you bite the bait. Good luck getting some money back.

just get the moderators on here that gave you your account back on your info and either they can clear it up as a result

or

you can at least make the case to the folks that gave you neg trust to remove such (does that work?)

of if you neg trust them ..you can both remove and call it a draw? (not sure how that works exactly)

just saying...if moderators got your account back should be a done deal imho any trust issues when you did not have the account should be cleared

ask them about that as well

anyway my 2 satoshi's worth

Moderators was not a big help but the guy who hacked me did. I confronted him and since validaded my btc adress with a signed messages to those guys who gave me negative trust saying it was a hacked account. Not a simple task, but did it.

none the less, your trust rating is at 0: -0 / +0. so it looks like you're clear from people calling you a ym shill.

and i really have no idea what went on in here, whether or not the shit slinging was from the real Xircom or the hacker.. so what ever happened in here stays in here, unless Xircom calls me out elsewhere again..

I just don't want to accept that someone thinks they are high and mighty because they own 2 more Zeros in their bank them me.

Did you contact the police?
Did they respond to you?

I see no answers from YM and they turned on automatic reply...

Yesminer are those MAT cunts at it again...stay clear of any german, european outfits that pop up

the catch is with these scams is you can rarely find anyone due to the fact all is on the web...no actual places/names/etc

they are in the wind and planning there next scam imho :) Law enforcement will be 'supportive' but will likely have nothing to go on locally and not gonna do a world wide hunt

thus these scams with the same people likely will rinse/wash/repeat under a different web page miner etc etc

Is it MAT ???
Cumans or whatever his name was or the other guy who started up MAT ?

That's just too convenient. I have tagged the Xircom account until evidence backs up your claim. This is the situation as I see it:

• Xircom was used to heavily shill for Yesminers
• Once the scam was completed, Xircom2 appears and says he was afk and hacked the entire time
• Modlog shows no password change requests for Xircom
• Xircom claims the hacker gives him his account back?!
• Xircom continues like nothing has changed and was up to date with Yesminers the entire time.

I'm calling bullshit.

Stop your shit now Dogie....
I got burned here as well and is in contact with Hamburg police...

By the way, if you did your work, you would notice Password got changed the 22th in the night and I could not acces my account until the other day

And here you have my PM from Baliza, to my Xircom2 account:

Baliza
Jr. Member
*
Offline

Activity: 38



View Profile  Personal Message (Offline)
Trust: -4: -2 / +0
Warning: Trade with extreme caution!
Re: (No subject)
« Sent to: Xircom2 on: February 05, 2016, 02:30:16 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote  ReplyReply  Remove this messageDelete 
Quote from: Xircom2 on February 04, 2016, 10:01:58 PM
!!! WARNING: This user is a newbie. If you are expecting a message from a more veteran member, then this is an imposter !!!
Hi Baliza,

You hacked my account and would like to get it back. Its ok that you do not fancy what i write, but hacking my account is ruin the forum.
Could you please give me my account back?
You ruind a good experience for some new people in the BTC world since I could not send them the miners they wanted to buy.
Regards
Xircom

I think you passwrd is 1qaz2wsx, sorry for that
Report To Admin

How much more info and proof do you need Dogie !!!!! I thought you were a reliable forum member but I thought wrong.

Xircom you are a shady piece of shit...here are some posts of yours when you were promoting Mining Asic Technologies - a known scam company. Funny how you were one of their only customers to ever get a miner eh? Then you promoted the shit out of it for other people. Who then handed over their money got and nothing. Seems like you have been in bed with two scam companies now and you still expect us to buy your shit? Dogie IS a well respected member of this forum..whose reputation is beyond reproach. You Xircom are a piece of shit scammer!

I think you mean...Marc Coumans, professional criminal and Chief Douchebag of MAT and your boss Xircom_scam_man...though i doubt Marc Coumans is his real name...I just remember his stupid smug face

http://i65.tinypic.com/34t7ea0.jpg

Just change the topic title to "Nominer M Bull/S*it"  ...

That's a tough one to prove but myself as someone who picks up on patterns quite well and BS, I suspected the same.  However it is only a suspicion and who really knows. Unfortunately we have to give xircom the benefit of the doubt that he is not a scammer and just a deadbeat human being.

That's an interesting picture. The following is conjecture:

• The miner on the left's IP reads 10.0.0.106 and reads 256.59MH.
• It does not appear that any of the PSU fans are spinning
• Many of the PSU cables are plugged into at the C13 end but not at the mains.
• There several different types of mains plug on different power cables.....
• None of the hashing board LEDs are lit
• The controller/LCD's green LED is not lit
• The PSU on the left's button is in the off position
• The miners, all 5KW of them, are flush against the wall. They are really, really powerful fans and there would be zero chance you'd not notice.
• They'd also quickly overheat as there isn't much headroom and they're sensitive to temperature.

The picture WAS taken on 25/11/2014 at 9:34AM local, on a Samsung Galaxy S5.

Holy Crap,

Are you guys really like that....
As I just wrote in a PM to Klintay:

Easy now, First I think you take me for someone else Huh
Second, im not Dutch and I have never been working for MAT, Got 2 machines from them, but lost another order for 2.
Third, lifeforce pool is a good tool that I did and do use, but I have never been working with him or for that matter Hashra and their miners, so !
Ups... forgot....Lost 4000,-$ out of 10.000,-$ for the Hashra deal, Simon only paid me back 6k.... >:( >:(

Im pretty sure you think about the German guy who worked for MAT, who left them at some point, but thats not me either.
Sorry, cant help you out on that one.

Scammer or Shiller, nope, why should I, I owe a rather big company in a complete different sector than BTC, so BTC is just an hobby for me.
And for Dogie "Sherlock", those 2 miners was later sold on E-bay, 1 for USA and one for Ukraine I think. So even you think they are not mining, the did a pretty good job for me before I sold them.
The radiator is not on and the miners were placed in one of my empty production buildings, so plenty of cooling.
Power cords, how the hell can you tell they are not pluged in :-) both miners are on top of an old GPU mining rig that I had 10 of at a point. GPU`s was sold, but the rigs, mother boards and power supplys was still on the rig but not pluged in. 2 power supplys pr Rig.
All power cords are going to different power extension plugs with I think 8-10 plugs. Each main power switch can take 2500Watt, so I had to spread them out because the MAT machines was power hungry.
The PSU on the left you say is not "ON", funny because I can see the fan spinning like crazy.
Controller LED, I think they never did work actually... now you say it.. No they did not.
Dogie, go back to your very good reviews and stay away playing "Sherlock" since this is purely just not good enough.


Peace
Xircom

As I told you, I will review in a few weeks if evidence vilifying your role surfaces. At the moment, peace.

Hi guys, I have been VERY VERY BUSY in the last 2 weeks.
The bad notice is that the Italian Police told me that the justice "iter" to follow is too complex, long and expensive! And maybe
the power of attorney would close the case immediately.
So now I know that henceforth I will never buy anything from the internet (just from Amazon or other big and sure parties!).
We are not protected!
Sorry for my unfortunate colleagues as well!

I think its because you tolk it to Italian police first. I went to German Kriminal Polizei and they take it serious. Try to write lka120@polizei.hamburg.de.
They are processeing my case and if more people would do the same they have to react fast.

may you want to tell us your case ID, so the police can connected other cases
easier

Ok guys I'll try it.
Thanks

YXT, you got my case ID in a PM some days ago.
I do not want to show the ID in the forum.

please enough with the processing bullshit..  I processed your case in 30 seconds. do you really think any processing is going on in any way shape or form. like I said in my other post, you are either full of shit or just a simple idiot. none of us here have to tools to find out which and I don't think anyone cares.

https://i.imgur.com/EX92n9G.png

I do not know what to do.

Find on the web the German police station that is located in the same town with that shit Yesminers scam company, find their phone or email. Inform them that you got ripped off! Call your bank and inform them the same thing, also tell them to refund your money!. Good luck i hope you get those low pieces of shit people

Good advice, you should also go visit your local police station in person to report the crime there. Get a crime reference number. They will take it more seriously if you go in person.

My English is minimal and no relatives and acquaintances in germany.

That is the hard thing about these scam companies.  For those with just a little amount it's hard to do something.   I mean do you hire a international lawyer, and try to get compensation?  I doubt a lawyer working internationally would 3k worth his time and fee's.     The ones who ordered many yes a lawyer is something in the cards.

Sadly the past companies a lot of them ride into the sunset with customer's money.  It is just hard to go after them.   And some are scams from the beginning which this company appears to be... so I'm not sure how easy it will be to go after.

At this people should not pre-order with a new company.  Just has gone wrong way to many times.

please read entire thread. there is no company !!

its a one man job

look at the youtube videos - this was the most pathetic scam i ever seen. anybody who lost money on this deserved it.  the scammer didn't even show his hand in the video and no voice.  who spends thousands with a company who hasn't even proven the existence of a single person.

I could have programmed a PC to write this entire scam in code.

And this is reason from page 1 people warned about it and even more heavily in page 2.  If you are seeking money from them might backup videos 2 are already deleted on youtube.

The thing I found crazy watching video... no network cable plugged in yet LCD shows hashing.  People should have questioned the crap out of that and not invested.  You are right a LCD could easily be programmed to say that.  I honestly am surprised people bought  these.  It does appear to be scam from beginning not a failed venture... so that is going to make it even harder to get any money back.

What about that fake set and pretty lighting. That is not the way these companies look. If it was a real startup it probably would have rough edges and wires sticking out the back and bad spray paint. No startup that is bringing something new to the market would spend money or time on that. You would see a messy lab or a warehouse floor and perhaps after selling hundreds and thousands they will start making it look like a retail product with a commercial. This fictitious company jumped right to the retail product/ tv commercial stage without showing us the R&D first and first version.

KFC hold my money for years, and I got my miner finally, eve through not profitable, but later better than never.

All i can say is FUCK off! Dont encourage this poor people, dont give them false hope!

Im running a case against them at German Police. I know for a fact that it is more than 1 guy. I spoke in the telephone with 3 different persons before they vanished. E-mails are written in different and perfect english. 1 guy is American called Mike Write. So in my digging its Volker Studier, Mr. Schultz and Mike Write. According to Fidor bank the account is without any money and was drained as soon as money came in A LOT OF MONEY.
The German police takes it very serious and I more or less in dayli contact with them.

Hello, You People.  I have been following (lurking) this thread for months as an unregistered guest.

My YesMiners story:
I saw a YesMiners auction listing on the US-eBay site and bit.  I was new to BTC, greedy, and naive.  I was third highest bidder in the last seconds at $1235 of $1750-ish for a $2750 voucher on YesMiners.de.  You can imagine my shock when I received a second-chance offer.  I figured they were new and eager for start-up cash.  CardCash had a 5% fire sale on eBay gift cards at the same moment so I took the offer.  Support (Mark) was very communicative and helpful at the time as he was until the supposed release day.  Even applying excess voucher funds to accessories on request with receipts and all.  You can imagine my dread when the YesMiners site went silent, then offline.  Surprise - It was a scam.  I never complained because they followed the rules set by eBay, performing as the listing dictated.  I bought a voucher code that did work on their site.  They even mailed me a letter (printed on A4 paper - link below).  I chalked it up to an expensive life lesson.

Edit - I don't have the envelope.

Well, now imagine my shock when I checked my PayPal balance recently and saw the entire amount was refunded!  The gift cards were restored and cash amount was returned to my PayPal account!  (See redacted screenshot below.)  Resolution Center listed the gift codes, thankfully.  I called PayPal customer support to get more information and a gentleman with a strong Indian accent named Nathan says Pylon Consulting was forced to refund the amount.  Or maybe Nathan didn't understand my question and was just agreeing with me.  Either way, THANK YOU whoever opened an case against PYC.  I had already given up.  Thank you.

YesLetter - http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee144/KougarLOB/YesLetter.jpg
YesRefund - http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee144/KougarLOB/YesRefund.png

TD;DR: I got my cash back and learned a lesson!

Report it to your local police, they will liaise with German police via interpol.

I'm a bit confused on this...but does this mean WHOEVER sold you the voucher via paypal on ebay.....was taken on such by yesminers themselves..thus when yesminers went poof and the vouchers etc became worthless...a complaint was made and paypal forced the folk 1 step above you in this yesminers scam who were likely taken for 'big bucks' to refund the vouchers?

is that how this played out?

Not exactly.  The eBay listing was #161785116168 being sold by YesMiners themselves.  No middleman.  I communicated directly with "Mark" from day 1.

The YesMiners eBay profile is was http://www.ebay.com/usr/yesminers.  Check the feedback and you'll find I was the first to give them positive marks; didn't praise the product, only the voucher which did work.  The voucher was used to "buy" the miner and several accessories including the "Overclock" upgrade a few months later.  What confused me the whole time was why they bothered to respond to inquires months after the auction ended and days before the operation went silent.  That kept my hopes up... Falsely.

Don't know how or who got the reversal started but damn, I was freakin' lucky.  Hopefully contact information in the screenshots is useful to others.

giving positiv feedback because you got a working code *LOL* seriously? WTF!
I always thought that are fake ratings because nobody can be that stupid ::)

I believe you could have started and easily won a PayPal or eBay case yourself. And if you had paid with a credit card instead of gift cards you'd have another layer of protection.

Not an endorsement to spend recklessly on scams. In the end we all share the cost of those PayPal disputes and CC chargebacks if they can't recover from the actual perpetrator.

Card issuers usually won't offer protection on Paypal payments citing Paypal as a payment processor, so their transaction is just with Paypal and the customer's dispute is between Paypal and the seller.

Not true, at least not in the US. I've been on both ends of this and CC chargebacks on PayPal payments go through just fine.

Also not true in the EU

Yeah, I was stupid and naive.  The listing was for a code which they delivered and it worked on their website.  The action required by the eBay listing was fulfilled as far as I saw it.  Ditto for the other 23 eBay buyers.  I assumed had I started a case eBay Buyer Protection/PayPal would side with YesMiners because they did as promised by the voucher.  (Stupid, stupid, stupid.)  With all the discounts and cashback, I would have been out about 1160USD.  This is at a time when BTC was around 260USD!  Would have been better off buying five coins and parking them in a BTCPop investor pool for six months.

Now I have a pile of valid eBay gift codes.  Time to finally build a few PC, which is why I get into BTC in the first place.  Saw a Bitcoin Accepted Here banner on a site and thought What's Bitcoin?  That was ten months ago and still haven't built that PC.

anybody got his miners  ;D

Everbody told u guys  ::)

haha awesome! so happy to hear a happy ending for once ;)
might i suggest when u build that pc, if u got a bit to burn, make it also a GPU mining rig
GPU mining has come back and theres money to be made if done right! ;D
best days to you

Yeah, Lucky.  So much negativity in this thread.  Had to add at least a glimmer of good news.  Good luck to the rest, seriously  :-[.
And I am researching at high-power GTX cards for Ether mining.

I got one from Amex after the 45 days of PayPal expired, but alpha also lied to Amex that I paid I in full on dispute. Actual Amex rep swore on phone at that ( said what an ass under his breath) heh this was fraud dept. Got refund on the spot. It had been denied 1x but I pointed out the lie. Amex was miffed off. Got full refund on the spot.


edit: to posts below

The above did happen around June 2015....the policies may have changed....and/or I may have just gotten lucky because of the nature of the documentation they sent
Alpha Tech...Scrypt Miner folk (still get emails from them 2 years later saying soon ...lol )  'implied' I paid full price for a product...when alpha tech only took 30% down.....anyway my experience may have been unique and now that time has gone by....this may not be done anymore...just saying ....dumb luck on my part .....and don't lie with doc's in a dispute to Amex...they were NOT amused.....especially when on the phone with the Fraud Dept (they call you if they think it prudent on a dispute)...(again my 2nd try ..I lost the first dispute) with Amex I guess...and re-reading above had to have a LOT of ducks in a row in 20/20 hindsight to get that instant refund it seems.....

Do you have any experience of that or are you just saying that? I have a case with a bank / Visa where they explicitly state that a payment with their card via Paypal is NOT covered by a Visa protection scheme.

https://i.imgur.com/EwCkAws.png (https://i.imgur.com/EwCkAws.png)

I think this is referring to Section 75. We are talking about chargebacks.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jan/20/section-75-chargeback

This is a very grey area.
In the Guardian article they say "If you use your debit card to load your PayPal account and then use that account to make a purchase, you are unlikely to be able to use chargeback if there is a problem with that purchase."

Grey area there is the words 'PayPal account'. Problem is that PayPal has changed from just a load & spend service (requiring a PayPal account) to also being a credit card transaction processing service for sellers that I assume acts as a go-between for your credit card and the retailer. That is where the Third-party wording comes into play.

The Banks/credit card companies want to/will only cover you if the transactions are done directly through them. They look at the matter as if you had a PayPal account that you xfr'd funds to for making the purchase.  To them it being a 'real' or temporary account is not in the equation. Ergo, disputes regarding usage of funds in that (PayPal) account is between you, PayPal, and the seller. Not the Banks problem.

Bottom line is that various countries laws aside it depends on what biz agreements PaPal has with the various banks/ credit card issuers.

Its not, its a screenshot from a letter from my bank exactly in relation to charging back or disputing a scammed transaction paid on a visa debit card via Paypal.

Hey,

4000 dollars or 10 000 dollars you can build your own mining rig and optimize it on LTC/ETH/DOGE?  ::)