Bitcoin Forum

Hello Theymos, Hello Mods,

we all know the drama that unfolded around Butterfly Labs (BFL) - and we all have our opinion about that.

Almost 80 percent of the forum members think it’s time to give BFL the Scammer tag.

Currently 503 out of 640 members voted "Yes, Butterfly Labs (BFL) should get a Scammer tag": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155730.0

I hereby ask you to respect the voice of the community and give BFL, BFL_Sonny, BFL_Josh and Inaba the Scammer tag.

BFL_Sonny only made one single post here, but also the others have been inactive since quite some time (BFL since Jan 2013 and BFL_Josh since October 2012).

Only Inaba is very active on Bitcointalk. Therefore it is most important to give him the Scammer tag.

To a priori invalidate that argument that "Inaba" is a private account that is not affiliated with BFL I would like to allege the following reasons:
1) Inaba (Josh Zerlan) uses this account in 99 percent of his postings to discuss matters regarding BFL.
2) Inaba, as official BFL company spokesman, hides behind this account so that he can’t be held responsible for spreading inaccurate information (at best) - or blatant lies. He furthermore uses this account to insult, ridicule and offend BFL customers and members of this community.
3) Josh/BFL uses the Inaba account to bid for BFL Ads placed on Bitcointalk.

I think it is the duty of this community to warn new members from falling for a company that places Ads (since months!) with "order now" all over the place when in fact they can’t fill those orders.

I think it’s time to to call a spade a spade.

Regards,
Frizz

I agree put him in scammer group and Theymos just need to stop his fucking sales and advetisements on this forum.

This is simply idiotic nonsense. How on earth can you call a company a SCAM for delivering products later than advertised? I'd rather see you people who keep perpetuating such idiotic drivel rightfully labelled as "Idiotic Troll".

I think we can all agree that the insane amount of time it took for them to get their act together was ridiculous, but in the end they are shipping now and real customers are receiving their ASIC (at a slow pace).

But for the love of god give the scammer tag thing a rest, The blatant trolling might have been funny in 2012, even in early 2013, but now it just got downright boring!

Why not call it what it is?  A "Potential Scam".

with optional Warning:

Suckers Investors should check deliveries at http://bfl.ptz.ro/ before ordering to establish what year their order may arrive.  

Boring? Take a look at the threads pertaining to the selling of BFL's new line--just the chips.

I concur with the the OP.

BTW, Sonny penned two threads with a promise of more to come. Either that was a lie or he was mistaken. You decide.

*Yawn* more BFL trollin' from the usual suspects...  ::)

I have a feeling that this thread will remain especially short for me, since I have most of those usual suspects on ignore... And as of about 30 seconds ago, that includes the OP.  ;D

Also, this thread should probably be moved to the 'meta' forum, since it has nothing to do with hardware or mining per se...

Oh the irony.

User RIPPLE wants to call something a "Potential Scam".

haha

+1 to OP.

Theymos, Mods....I think it is a community consensus that BFL should be labeled something to give new people a chance to say "hey maybe I shouldn't order just yet and do more research on BFL."

Also the misleading advertising on this forum is not helping.

Although I could be considered a usual troll I have always had the customers in mind, after all I was one of them and feel lied to. I just wanted BFL to understand they have done wrong. Just because they are a company does not excuses them from not being an honest one.

I would love to call them a scam however the only benefit I see from that being done is making a great deal of people vindicated. Revenge is never a solution.

However we do know BFL advertises quite a bit EVERYWHERE!! There is nothing we can do about that. However we can keep the forum clean of those adverts.

Theymos if it was possible I could see an announcement of a "buyers beware" of pertinent information about BFL about "facts only" not all the speculation. People do come here for information usually after they buy unfortunately.

I don't want to damage BFL only limit the damage done to unsuspecting consumers. I believe that would be fair.

As a remedy I suggest anyone who wishes to donate to the bitcointalk.org as group could fund an ad space here to warn consumers. I believe Theymos would not have an issue over that. Vote with your money. It is the real weapon

Just for the record, they are still doing refunds. One of the reasons I did originally order (and cancel) from them was that it was through paypal so that worst comes to worst I could reverse the transaction.

 :D

You need to do more reading.

Considering I am a few days away from formally filing a legal complaint against Butterfly Labs, my feelings in this matter should be self-evident.

I could understand your position in this. I would have done the same. However I am impartial and willing to see what happens either way.

Ponzi's operate this way too. They will refund an investor just to keep a good standing front to their investors to avoid the house of cards collapsing.

So I disagree here 100%. BFL can refund all they want, but at the end of the day they can't deliver and fill ALL of the existing customer preorders WITHOUT taking in new money to fund existing orders.

That, my friend, is a PONZI. :P

And is Illegal.

signed.

No, they will not receive a scammer tag over the matter of their ASICs being late until several months go by with no progress. Stop asking.

Thank you, voice of reason.

The Forum needs a range of tags.

Including  a "stupidity" tag.

Someones cranky they didn't get an early pre-order in :P

No one asks to give BFL a Scammer tag for being late. Shits happens.

But that's not the point here. And you know that.

Constantly stringing people along with false promises - and blatant lies - is what qualifies for a Scammer tag. Shady business tactics is what qualifies for a Scammer tag.

Those 500 people that voted to give BFL a Scammer tag surely didn't do that solely based on the fact that BFL is late. And you know that.

Ignoring those people is a slap in the face of this community.

There are a lot of shitty things floating around bitcoin, and bfl is one of them.
However, a scammer tag is inappropiate.

They are simply patological liers. As of now, they didn't stole anyone's money.

I for one completely think that BFL has produced chips, but instead of sending them to customers they are currently mining with them.  I made a post a couple days back about it noting that (and I know this sounds far fetched) but a friend of a friend got a tour of the place and swears that they are mining with customer purchased equipment.  So not only will you eventually receive your device, but it will be no longer useful since difficulty will have gone way up, and it will be used.

This is my personal opinion, note I do not have a pre order with them.

smoothie, I'll change my name to Raspberry Ripple ... then we can make little smoothies together. :D

Just curious - what qualifies as 'several months' and when do you start that clock running (from)?
I've got no skin in this game, but it looks like they already qualify from reading  your terse response.

The clock starts from the last sign of forward progress from them.

Whats interesting is that if I follow a parallel scenario to the BFL route, I could very well amass 300 BTC from buyers on BitCoinTalk.org

...Then do with as I please for many months (investing, gambling, whatever) and if I am lucky, when my customer(s) become irate. Return to them what they are due.

My benefits from doing this are that I borrowed 300 BTC from the community, made actual income money with it, but failed to live up to expectations for many months. (many months = more than 4)

I can still come out smelling absolutely clean in the eyes of the Mods and Admins by simply returning to the buyers what was theirs minus whatever that income generated or the promises I meant to keep....and I'll never get a SCAMMER Tag.

Why?

Because....that is okay. I got mine, my customers got theirs (minus my promises to keep) and I will never get a Scammer Tag. Why?

Because that is okay as a standard on BitCoinTalk. Am I right?

Now I could redo my scenario to fit exactly the BFL scenario.

And if what Maged said is the unanimous consensus among administration. I could very well say I got the nod of "it is okay by us".

If not, then let us hear *any* dissenting opinion. If none dissent on that opinion, then I can very well assume there is a way around the scammer tag.

"Take funds as you will, promise everything under the stars but even if you deliver nothing of substance. Make absolutely sure to return what the buyer are owed. Everything is fine by us. Whatever you made from that funding is yours to keep."

Someone...please give dissent on this opinion or everyone silently agrees this is "okay".

Wah wah waaaaaahhhhh.  ;D ;D ;D

Well, kids, I guess you're just gonna have to TROLL HARDER.  :D

Good luck with your "formal legal complaint", xian, you silly cunt.

You seem to think we're private detectives, or the cops. How are we supposed to know what they're doing? Open an investigation? Flash our moderator badge and hand over our BITCOINTALK.ORG warrant? If people feel comfortable leaving their money with them, that's fine and dandy by me, who the hell are we to stop them? People ask for refunds, they get them back. If they stop getting them back, or BFL disappears, then it's time for a scammer tag.

This is a forum, not a police station. Or a nursery for that matter.

A forum, yes. The biggest Bitcoin forum there is. And because of this we do have some sort of responsibility.

Bitcoin continuously takes hits because of scumbags. Giving a Scammer tag to scumbags shows the community: "It is not OK with us!".

 This is part of the unspoken social contract I mistakenly assumed we had with forum administrators, with the hopes you were good shepherds of this community.

 I see this is not the case.

 Laissez-faire indeed.

 Don't worry BadBear, I'm doing your work for you.

 Stay tuned.

"Social Contract"? I guess I didn't see any social contract listed in the terms and conditions for the forum when I signed up. Mind pointing that out to me?

BFL are not "scammers" they're "disappointers". You were disappointed by them, and now you want the forum and its moderators to go forth and punish them on your behalf. They're not going to do it, so you're going to waste the time of the courts to try and force them to rinse the sand out of your vagina for you. You don't want moderators or rule of law, you want a wet nurse.

BFL has repeatedly missed target dates. OK, frustrating and disappointing. But if you don't like it, get a refund. It's not a "scam" if you're free to get your money back at any point. I hope the courts fine you for your epic levels of stupidity.

No company deserves it more, especially that grimy weasel Inaba

Does selling raw chips and offering people to "upgrade" their fully functional miner orders to useless chips count as progress ?

How about for failing to pay up on bets posted on this forum?

So far, Bad Bear and Maged  (Global Moderators) are at the very least on the same page.

No discernible dissenting opinions that I can see. <Shrug>

It is, what it is.

That is apparently also okay. You can get away with it, apparently.

If I am wrong about that, no doubt, Moderators or Admins will see to it that it is clearly stated as "not acceptable" in this thread.

Visitors to the Forum may be wondering if it possible that BFL is a Scam?

Here is the present delivery advice verbatim from Butterfly Labs (BFL) website, written in 100% English:


http://www.butterflylabs.com/faq/

Could anyone suggest BFL is a Scam when delivery advice to it's customers is this goddamned precise?

Its not just that they are "a little" late. It's several months. Difficulty has more than doubled.
Also, the Products being offered for pre-order don't exist. There's no Japaleno and no Mini Rig,
none of the products have the specs advertised for pre-order. And then this whole mess with
delivery costs etc.

If you order a mercedes and you get a toyota then you have been scammed. Its pretty easy to understand,
even for the BFL fanboys.

Theymos is looking (has looked?) at that. I'm not sure where that is at. Personally, I don't want to have to look at it, since anything BFL-related is extremely time-consuming.

EDIT: It looks like this is resolved, at least for BFL:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/134-butterfly-labs-donates-1000-btc-charity-bitcoin-related-projects.html

Yes, absolutely. It means they have at least the chips.

It's ridiculous that we are still taking about this, at least it seems the moderators here have some common sense:
Being Ridiculously Late, Twisting the Truth, Being bad ad PR != SCAMMING

All this really is, is bad management of the project they started, nothing more.

Selling chips doesn't confirm BFL have chips in stock.

BFL labs announcement states: "Chip delivery schedule is approximately 100 days through end packaging once your order is placed."

Note the use of the word "approximately". Approximately can be interpreted many ways by a company that has little respect for ethics or values.  

What is more certain than their delivery schedule, is the concern that by the time customers receive a rig from BFL, that the difficulty level will be drastically higher, due to the glut of chips on the market from Avalon and others.


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/3014-butterfly-labs-announces-bulk-chip-sales.html

A lot of people are going to be cancelling their orders for mining equipment with BFL due to the very late delivery schedule.  BFL is not going to be too much worried about this as they have already collected tens of millions of US Dollars from their pre-order scam.  They are comfortably sitting on high-interest earning advance monies obtained at interest-free rates from customers, which would never have been obtainable from financing houses or banks.

Consider if you were a director of BFL, and assuming you have the ethics of which we have become aware, then would you care if customers cancelled a few orders.  Probably not, as you would be concentrating on using the millions of dollars in pre-order money you have collected for new Ponzi-type investment schemes.

So don't think of your cancelled orders as completely wasted... so not only will you have helped finance the creation of bitcoins by the four secret BFL mining farms in Kansas, but you will also have been individually helping finance director's holiday homes in Costa Rica.

What's up with the Moderators and Owner of this forum to side with BFL so much?   Selling your soul just because of the ads revenue?

No honest company continue to advertise their products and accepting pre-order when they can't deliver their products within reasonable time frame.   They should have stopped taking pre-order long time ago until they can fulfill at least 50% of their backlog.

At this point, they are behaving like typical ponzi.   Using money collected from recent order to refund the past order customer.

Stamp them with a Scammer Tag until they can clear at least 50% of their back order.   

Otherwise, you guys are equally liable for assisted scamming.

Oh, they did. They did! They refused to honor full bitcoin refunds. They stole a dozen of bitcoins from me alone!

No, but shipping the first month's worth of Jalapeno orders (as of yesterday) does.... ;)


Exactly. Having management/PR issues =/= "scamming", it just = lots of pissed off customers, many of whom are too big of pussies to just get a refund if they can't take the wait.


Businesses are not required to serve as a hedge for you against exchange rate fluctuations. You paid Bitcoin through a service which converted your bitcoin into cash which was paid to them. The exchange rate happened to favor Bitcoin, so you consider yourself entitled to a return on that. Yet if Bitcoin had crashed to 10% of its paid USD value, and they'd tried paying you back the same value in bitcoin, you'd be pitching a fit. If you received a refund, you were given 100% of the value/purchasing power that you paid, on the day you made the payment. You're a fool if you believe that companies are responsible to hedge against exchange rate changes, and pay you the greater of any possible outcome.

BadBear, you don't have to know what they are doing behind the scenes to know they have lied and not delivered on their promises.

"UNTRUSTWORTHY" might be an appropriate tag to give them BFL cowboys? No?

JUST IN:

BFL is now paying themselves in the form of a charity organization they created. No joke. They are literally paying themselves the 1000 BTC without any proof that any of it goes to any charity(s).

1. So because they made a new website that they own and control and put up that they paid XX btc to Y party then it is all settled? Just take their word for it? Bullshit. Piratat40 could then easily put up on his website "PAID ALL MY INVESTORS BACK PLUS 7% WEEKYL INTEREST" in BIG BOLD letters and be free and clear of being a scammer right? Come on that is some fucked up logic.

2. So if they give customers the option to exchange their WORKING DEVICE ORDER for chips that may or may not be functional at all or even potato chips for that matter, that is progress?

When will you people in control of this forum start to take things a bit more seriously and actually do some research or better yet require that BFL cowboys prove the shit they claim is indeed legit.

I.E. that charity bet could be done through an escrow, say JOHN K.

Well there you go, you folks have all the suggestions you need to determine if BFL is full of shit or not...why am I thinking nothing will come of this?

Oh because so far BFL is going on 12 months without really doing anything in terms of delivering products to their customers. And no 40-60 devices shipped in 2 months time since they got their prototype working is not DELIVERING. It is fraud on so many levels given their initial and continual advertisements of their products from June 2012 until March 2013.

Not to mention concerning their chips you have to wait 100 days. The way I see it is they advertising to sell something as another pre-order after this past year of waiting for their "ASICs" should not be considered progress nor serious at all.

If I sell you something on Ebay and then take a year to ship it that is a scam. The product loses value, especially a competitive product like an ASIC miner.

Try an post criticism on their own forums. It will be deleted. BFL may not be a classic scam but it is absolutely, beyond an shadow of a doubt a disgusting company that mistreats its customers for its own gains.

People who paid 2k bitcoins, expecting to get their product and make a ROI of 30 days or less for a $30,000 product.
Now valued at $250,000 worth of bitcoin, and make their original ROI in how long?


Seems like a pretty legit way to make some money, collect $30,000 in bitcoin, wait for the price to go up, refund in usd keep the $250,000 in bitcoin.

It's progress. Proof that the money was given to charity can be provided at a later point within a reasonable time period. Charity organizations don't set themselves up instantly.

The transactions to Luke and Con Kolivas seem legit (even though some shade remain about the relationship between Luke and BLF).
I couldn't get an easy google confirmation about the EFF address, but didn't have that much time to look into it either.

All in all, I consider they payed off 15% of their bet debt.

Here is my issue, despite all of the signs, the delays, lies, bullshit, etc, you as well as it appears the rest of the mods and theymos are giving BFL too much the "benefit of the doubt".

Even John K is skeptical about being an escrow for BFL chip batches. Doesn't that say something?

I suppose not.

Don't get me or the other mods wrong, we absolutely believe that BFL is mismanaged and is unlikely to deliver as promised, but that doesn't mean they are scamming anybody. Our personal opinions have no bearing on the matter.

Perhaps then it would be a good faith gesture to turn down any and all BFL advertisements on bitcointalk?

Seems fair given you folks don't believe BFL can deliver on their promises, the forum shouldn't be enabling more broken promises to be perpetuated.

A few days .. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU WAITING FOR !?

It isn't a short process to complete nor consider and cost implications.

Chill buddy.

I definitely received a donation, and it was unsolicited and totally unexpected. Took me half the day to figure out where it had even come from since I received no notification, but it is most welcome.

You should thank all the preorder customers of BFL. They likely funded that donation indirectly. ;D

Will do.

Thank you. That is a much better response than Kano gave when posed with the same task about him getting a free BFL unit. :)

I had written a VERY VERY long post about this issue but really

In regards to the mods and this

"GO SUCKIT"

Why should we censor a business based on nothing but our opinion? Like Maged said, our opinion is largely irrelevant.


Strong argument, thanks for your contribution.

Why did you censor people based on nothing but your opinion when they warned about BFL fraudsters many months ago? You didn't just censor them. You've also locked the threads and have changed the titles to insult and mock them.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.0

As i had written a very very long statement .. i stopped half way through as there is really noi point discussing it with you pple as u have been bought off..

Ok how about just a little bit..

Look it is plain and simple a waste of time with these pple aka sold out moderators to this forum!!

On the numerous sock puppets ...int30h just calling people "CUNTS"  and thats OK ?>??

As long as it is to the bennifit of BIG FUCKING LIES ... YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME

They have bought all and sundry ... the masters of the con game .... giving 50 btc to chklovis as a charity when all it is about is PR and currying favour for him and the community with the most amount of noise... I call this there BRIBE FUND ...maybe you guys can be another well deserving charity as I am sure they will happily donate more money to you ..lol

These mother fucking lying dogs are mining with peopels equipment so i gurantee that they wont be going out of business as they are "TESTING" all the new chips and rigs for as long as they have a cash flow problem !!

The crypto community has created this monster that has bought all and sundry...the only chance was if the mods treated these guys how they should be so that ppl know who and what they are ...

I am sorry to say that these mother fuckers are going to be with us for a long long time

SO thank you mods for blessing us with having Josh/inaba and sonny having influence and corrupting the community for ever and a day

Honestly "GO FUCK YOURSELFS"

Thats all I can say because u are so full of shit it really saddens me ...that after all that has happened because of a few $$ u turn a blind eye to all that has passed...

What after every insult and after LIE AFTER LIE AFTER FUCKING LIE !!!!!  it is called a fraudelent mis-representation ....how about the proto in OCT that existed or the clock buffer with the previous proto that they sent back ..yeah right ..lets agree that the first time they had a chip was in april as we all know !!! Given there past history and track record that the likeyhood that they ARE NOT mining on main net ...yeah right ...Can you say with straight face with all of that .... that BFL is all good to go!!! ... Here is my response if the answer is YES

This is the reason that is holding back crypto from mainstreaming....

Oh and BTW GO FUCK YOURSELFS AGAIN.... LOOK IN THE MIRROR AT THE SOLD OUT PIECE OF SHIT THAT YOU PPL ARE !!!

I dont care because you pple are a fucking joke  Please revoke all of the other scammer tags that have gone previously because honestly there is no point...!!!!

THEY DESERVE AN UNTRUSTWORTHY AT LEAST DONT YOU THINK !!

...so thats what i thought as it was still sitting in clip board.... but really it does not matter ..as all these facts are as elastic as you want to twist them as I know u will just like johs's power ratings his bets and anything else that he wants or cares to do or my favourite the ARril 1 delivery of Luke Jr mining rig for the "SHipping in April" bet!!!!..that one was con man gold ..as it had been shipped and once proven it was not it was suddenly on site but was still classed as being shipped ...LIKE WTF how much can any sane person take in relation to how u guys are just fucking with us all .. so honestly why bother... u will either ignore or belittle anything and everything to satisfy every lie and property by deception exercised by these con artist... ignoring is being a party to this crime !!!

Whatever...........keep up the excellent job that u guys are doing in regards to this issue..love your work ..lol

So I guess the following holds true:

1. If the mods of this forum disagree with mere individuals and their views on BFL and the BS they can mock/troll you, censor you, change the title of the topic, and lock topics that are in regard to BFL if they so please.

2. But if the same is true for a business like BFL, censoring is not an option when it comes to their opinions of said company.

DOUBLE STANDARD MUCH?

Pretty clear as day I'd say BadBear.  :D

That wasn't me, and I don't know the whole story but I don't really agree with those actions.


Two wrongs don't make a right, sorry smoothie, try harder. 
It's funny that you're all for censorship when it benefits you though.



You were right, you shouldn't have bothered posting.
https://i.imgur.com/2QqyqBg.jpg

Now comes the denial. "oh it wasn't me"...ok sure whatever...next...

Oh what are you referencing when you claim I am for censorship when it benefits me?

Link and PROOF? Please oh please show me where I advocate censorship on this forum when it BENEFITS ME ....i.e. PROFIT.

Nice try BadBear to turn the tables on me, when I actually have no censorship powers, unlike you. Mr. Global Moderator.

 :P

Okay well I am done on this topic. BFL will be allowed to do what they want on this forum whether it is misleading, lying etc.

I'll just be lurking with my popcorn when it all blows up. Who knows what this implies in terms of this forum (shrug).

/End Rant

Even that guy knows it wasn't me, says so in the op. You're too quick to jump to conclusions, it's a trend with you.

And I don't mean for profit, I don't think you're a bad guy smoothie  ;).

 Just drop it already smoothie. It's obvious we would have an easier time asking Monsanto lobbyists to get out of politics than we would getting the forums administration here to do anything about community concerns.

1. Prove us wrong that it wasn't you.

2. Oh so now we want to make claims that aren't even relevant to what we are discussing (i.e. BFL is a FOR-PROFIT organization). I am a FOR-ENTERTAINMENT individual.

Big difference. lol

Oh and I am still waiting for proof ...not just about #1 but from my previous post...

Good job, make claims and don't back them up. That is a good sign we should believe it wasn't you who locked that thread right? Without proof?

Waiting... :P

That would be the local mods. If I recall, it was either DiabloD3 or Luke-Jr who did that, both of whom are no longer mods.

You'll find that the global mods and admins are extremely consistent with our moderation decisions. Nobody from those groups was involved in the first action you mention above.

Moderators:

The image of your authority is in question, not by all I don't believe it is your job to police morality of businesses. You do need to be neutral in all matters. However you like most business need money to run the forum and should be obvious to all here. I suggested before that you allow other in the community that are concerned to buy ad space to warn others. Putting an announcement that although you take on adverts from companies you are not condoning any company or have any opinion on any matter. Closing threads should follow the rules of profanity and excessive hate crimes and porn and the rules you have outlined.

BFL supporters:

You have your opinions and the right to voice them. Please consider all facts and if you choose to not to head the warning or you believe they're not true its fine. For me at least is not an issue besides its your money.

BFL non supporters:

You need to understand that the rules of the forum need to be followed and BFL has the right to advertise here just like every other company however you all have the right to advertise as well. Instead of voicing your concerns bashing moderators incurring resistance to your cause. Work with them in a civil manner and be on equal footing with BFL's right to advertise. CROWED FUND ad space here and support the community along with this great forum. Take the forum back for the community.

To the community:

If you have a concern about the issue of BFL and would like to support ad space to have this ask a representative from the community to escrow a fund and lets move forward with this. If a moderator wishes to take this on please voice your intention and lets restore the image of bitcoin and this forum as a community of like mined individuals aspiring to change the idea of commerce and the future.

Lets get this done. I may not have much but I am willing to donate to a solution.

...i loled

It's not the moderators fault people are stupid enough to pre-order this stuff in the first place despite knowing their history, this complaint would be like if a group got together about weight loss advertisements on piratebay and demanded the advertisements got taken down because they didn't work and were a scam. You can't protect people from their own stupidity, governments have been trying that for years and no amount of warning stickers, tags and censorship ( which is what you're advocating ) will stop stupid people from doing stupid things.

Stop blaming the moderators for other peoples stupidity, I think the only one who was doing anything useful about this situation was that guy who was actively advertising and warning people about BFL ( Was it TradeFortress? Can't remember ) that's a better spend of time than trying to force the moderators to remove a source of income that won't really affect much in the first place beyond their own wallets. People just need to shut the fuck up and admit there are stupid people out there who don't know any better and they're going to pay for it no matter what we do, I call it Darwinism.

We didn't. All we did was ask the moderators to give them a scammer tag.

553 users voted yes, 154 voted no so far.

A 78% majority is quite a strong message one might think.

It is when the owners of the forum allow advertisements of "Order Now BFL XX GH/s for $yyyy"...instead of saying it is a preorder.

Misleading advertisements do not help the situation. That is called false advertising.

1. This is too practical of a solution
2. This post has no cursing
3. This post lacks non-standard text size
4. This post provides a proactive solution to a problem

I think it's safe to say this is in the wrong thread! yuk yuk yuk

Back to the point. Fuck BFL, I want my coffee warmer!

Unless you can show that BFL owns BitPay, your criticism makes absolutely no sense at all.  When you pay BFL bitcoins, those bitcoins do NOT go to BFL -- they go to BitPay who converts them to dollars immediately, and deposits the DOLLARS into BFL's account. 

Yes I was trying to remember what the hell I was smoking that day! It was totally inappropriate behavior. What was I thinking? :P

22% against giving them the scammer tag is an even stronger message. Again, the majority does not make these decisions.

In all honesty I am surprised how you moderators are ill-equipped to diffuse the mess here even after giving a solution that would benefit the forum and put you back in a neutral position. After all that said you poke the hornets nest again with a comment like this.

Embarrassed  :-[

btw I selected no for scammer tag. What does that say about the solution I put forth.

We're happy to accept ads from anyone as long as they don't contain "lies, misrepresentation, or inappropriate language" as outlined in our ad auction guidelines (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220366.0). Personally, I think that it would be better not to have anti-BFL ads at all since that will just bring more attention to them. Instead, it might be better to out-bid them and, if you win, re-sell your slots to the next lowest non-BFL bidder for their bid amount and consider the difference as a donation to the forum. If BFL keeps bidding beyond what you can afford, at least you are costing them more money.

Care to explain?



The majority has already made this decision. And you chose to ignore it.

With due respect, but you don't own this community. You are merely hosting it. The community can chose another host at any time.

you need a "dumbass tag" . . .

being late on the delivery is not the same as a scam. use a dictionary, maybe try reading once in a while.

Sure. In order for the scammer tag to have any value at all, people need to see that we only use it in the absolute clearest of cases. When someone sees a scammer tag, they will then know that they shouldn't even try trading with that person. If we used the scammer tag in this case, 22% of the forum would believe that a scammer tag has no value and would ignore it in the future.

I would like to see an ad as an example of what it should look like that conforms to your ad auction guidelines (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220366.0) put here so we can move forward. Possibly an escrow of your choice (if that is something you can offer)

If you are unwilling could this be a seen as a problem? You do realize I am trying to show you a way of saving face here as your actions show you are unwilling to work with people.

This was disturbing to say the least. You are willing to have honest money compete with dis-honest money. (thats just my opinion)
Something is wrong here when I read that.

This will bite you guys later when I see these comments from paid customers from other forums.

22% is almost 1/4.
Almost 1/4 is the number of eligible voters that voted for Barak Obama.
Almost 1/4 was enough to give Obama the "President of the United States of America" tag.
Quote Maged: "22% of the forum world would believe that a scammer president tag has no value and would ignore it in the future.

So yes, Maged, I understand where your twisted logic comes ...  ;)
Not.

Frizz23, aka Frizz Supertramp, you have over 50 accounts under different names here, your poll is a fraud, because I'm sure you used the lot to vote "yes".
You tried to cancel orders that weren't yours, you tried to get refunds for orders that weren't yours.
You pretended being a customer that had his orders lost, being refused a refund after requesting for it, you post pulled out of context BFL statements and bend them to your will, you make up accusations with falsified facts, dates and figures. You even accused me of harassing your family, falsely.
If you consider BFL being a scam, you should have pulled your order back, but you did not. Anyone being around here longer than a blue Monday knows your trade, it stinks.

 That's quite the list of accusations. Have sources out of curiosity ?

Slok, your postings are, as usual, full of half-truths - and blatant lies.


I did open quite a few accounts over the past few months - not on Bitcointalk, but on BFL forums. Because as soon I post some inconvenient facts my messages get censored & my account gets deleted. Game of cat and mouse. I hope I saved at least some poor souls from falling for their "Order Now" & "in 14 days from now" scam.



And I am sure a lot of you BFL shills voted "no" with all your fake accounts. So what? I'd be quite happy if one of the Mods could publish a list of all the users that participated in that poll.



Blatant lies. IMHO you see a "Frizz" in each and every "suspicious" account - and blame it all on me. Paranoid much?

I challenge you: Provide some evidence for your accusations. If you prefer to continue this dispute publicly, feel free to do so. But please open a new thread for it - because the topic of this one is whether or not BFL should get a scammer tag.


True, because you did. You bolstered that you tracked down my identity / doxed me [note: after me posting on BFLs Facebook page as 'Frizz Supertramp' ... you must be a real mastermind. not]. And you wrote that you sent messages to all my Facebook contacts and warned them about me.

Quite some psychopathic behavior if I may say so.

By the way: What to think of someone with a signature like yours:
http://s7.directupload.net/images/130608/mmlviw8x.png
Mentally disordered fanboy? Or paid shill ...

 Ugh. Doxing and harassing IRL is never cool. Poor form, SLok :(

So show me where I did that what you accuse me of, the red part, behavior that I detest btw.
You made most accounts in duplo, on the bfl forum and here. Willing to donate a btc to this forum for every account you made besides the Frizz23 one?
Appotomax? BitsnPieces? BFL_Mitt? BFL_Obama? BFL_Labrat? Radacoin? Inabra? Cpt. Nemo? Etcetera....

The sig, you asked that many times, obviously annoys you, that's the pay I get for it!
Believe what you will, I say he lies, he may now show where he based this on: And you wrote that you sent messages to all my Facebook contacts and warned them about me., and what information that was not already known and posted on this forum I doxed him with. I do not use facebook, I don't follow BFL's facebook, or anyone else's.

 

Hey slok How much do you get paid for an ad? I would like to try it.

I don't think my Jala will make much soon at it is already going down to 14 dollars a day in 2 weeks after re-target.

It pays me.......nothing. So don't bother.
$14 a day is $420 a month, on a $149 or $249 investment. If you find a better investment, do the community a favor and let them know.

You are sick Slok, you know that?



Slok, you quite frequently delete old messages to destroy evidence (very lame bahavior imho). I should have made a screenshot when you bolstered contacting my Facebook contacts - but I did not know back then what a coward you are.

Wanna have an example? Here:

author=SLok link=topic=150803.msg2174566#msg2174566 date=1368746560

msg2174566 was yours - now it's gone.



But it seems you feel more save on BFL forums - and feel less need to delete your postings.

Like this one here, your continuous doxing efforts:

http://s7.directupload.net/images/130608/doqtbarx.png




You also forgot to delete one of your postings on Bitcointalk. I don't mind that you put photos online - but at least don't lie about it and don't deny your doxing attempts:

http://s1.directupload.net/images/130608/8mismi9v.png
 




So who's the liar now?

And now I ask you again: Please provide some evidence four your outrageous accusation:

I am sick? Remember your asshamster sig? That was sick. About that deleted "nice, pictures" post, that was removed by a moderator, probably on your request?
It is here: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/daargaje/planetFrizzS_zpsaec2d172.png (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/daargaje/planetFrizzS_zpsaec2d172.png)
Lies, upon lies, upon lies. I never deleted or edited 1 single post here, or anywhere else. Stop making things up Frizz, I never contacted your contacts, who ever that may be, or bolstered to do so. Look elsewhere on this forum, maybe one of the many people you doxed or insulted over time?
Now you come complaining that I rednosed a picture of you that was floating on the forum already, as a reaction to you rednosing and doxing other people like that Dobbins guy?

Oh really?

BFL ads for months was "ORDER NOW BFL ASIC MINER BLAH BLAH"

Dont tell me that was not a lie or that what I am claiming in the above paraphrased quote is untrue.

I have tons of witnesses on this forum that can attest to the fact that this forum has ALLOWED BFL to post MISLEADING ADS which is essentially lying.

And by that logic 78% are viewing the "no scammer tag" decision as useless because it does not give people who do not know better to believe the lies/misrepresentation that BFL has perpetuated on these forums for a year.

What's the threshold? 14%? 8%?

And more importantly, what's the timeout?
If I ordered a minirig a year ago due to ship 8 months ago, how long will it take for you to acknowledge I've been ripped off ?

This is epic.  MooC Tals: BFL is a scam!  They should be given a scammer tag on Bitcointalk.  They suck!  They are liars!  Oh... by the way, I'm going to keep my order with them.  lol... what a hypocrite.

They won't. Remember it doesn't matter what the mods think of BFL.

lol  :P

Got time to come troll the forums I see.

BFL customers this is what the person in charge of your pre-orders does when he is supposed to be "delivering" a now 1 year old product from preorder inception.

And he has the balls to come here and talk shit.

That quote was worded that way so SLok your paid shill behaved himself. I found that I get better treatment from them when they assume I am a paying customer. Funny eh?



Sorry dude! I dumped your company in Jan 8 2013 after listening to your lies for 3 fucken months. Say hi to Jodi for me. I was the guy threatening to cancel my order if Jan 1 arrived on your forum.

lol I would never buy from your pathetic dysfunctional lying criminal company again. This will never be a repeat customer. I have actually persuaded others close to me from buying units from you. I believe I have done enough to satisfy the taste of vengeance.  So enjoy your cup of oblivion.


Here is the email record I have kept. I would say look up the numbers but I'm pretty sure you guys would screw that up too. I posted this in the pre-order wait list here on bitcoin talk and if your still not inclined to believe me I can show you the two posts

One adding my order number to the list and the other of me requesting it to be removed from the list.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89685.msg1302392#msg1302392 <Ordered
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89685.msg1486205#msg1486205 <Cancelled

http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o798/buddy3315/BOOYAH_zps08ad73a4.png (http://s1343.photobucket.com/user/buddy3315/media/BOOYAH_zps08ad73a4.png.html)

You just been fired! I will no longer need your services. Thank you

Inaba The only reason your shipping your Jala's is for one reason and that is from the difficulty being made by Avalon batch 1.

I bet it is making you guys sweat like how I was sweating watching the value of my pre-orders melt with every lie that came out of your mouth.

A difficulty jump of 153 to 184 million is quite a start and very impressive. Jala's used to make 17 dollars a day to 14 and in two weeks who knows maybe down to 11. What is the life span of these units? I guess those pre-orders will be switching to refunds soon. At the same time I can't see them being useful for anything else and maybe that's why your selling chips now cus you just figured that they just won't pay for them selves. Why not just mine them your selve and the money you make pay for your refunds.

So now the heat is on to push out these jalas and you still have time to read the  forum?

GET BACK TO WORK!!!!  BTW I voted no to scammer tag. You imbecile

Yes, I recall you mentioning that now.  So you basically lied above, then, huh?  Not surprising.

Anyway, I'm sure I've already done it, but let me thank you again from the bottom of my heart for canceling your order.  I really appreciate you not inflicting yourself and your friends upon my CS team for a whopping $683, it is sincerely appreciated.

I bet you appreciated my 3 month interest free loan you mean. I been noticing that you started charging an additional service fee of some sort with the new refunds as mine does not include that. Was that your idea?

Haha Ooooh Scathing Takes one liar to know one as they say. You're not saying that a measly $163 and $683 dollar order is not worth your appreciation, right? What would all those other jala and SC orders think of what you just said there? You just keep putting your foot in your mouth nowadays. I hoping you appreciate the Jala customers you are servicing now. Why else would you be shipping them first. It would be out of appreciation for their business.
 
I would like to thank you for a more civil post compared to the last one that made coin desk. We both felt we have been portrayed incorrectly. Agreed?

Although I enjoy these little chats we have I really do wish you well as even though I hate what you have done (being untruthful or deceitful) and are doing I still feel for you as a person. I'm sure you will remember this for the rest of your life as it will carry with you in this field of work. Unless you take a different route of employment or you're a sociopath.

I know it's not easy to run a company and with the type of customers you serve. We can be very demanding and some of us are quite the knowledgeable bunch.  

However I still wish you the ability to learn from your mistakes or at least acknowledge them. In my humble opinion honesty would have serve you better in the long run and I personally would have waited longer on my order if your company had been more forth coming with the problems you were experiencing along the way. I still believe a scammer tag is not warranted only due to the employees you are responsible for. Jodi seems nice.

In my experiences if I was honest with my customers they would 99% of the time understand and stuck it out with my problems and those 1% would ask for a concession of some sort. Proud to say I have never lost a sale/job.

Your lost customer

Please, by all means, demonstrate where I've been untruthful or deceitful.  No?  Why not?  Because it never happened.  You troll crew like to trot this out, but to date not a single one of you have been able to demonstrate any lies or deceit. 

How about the prototype or the clock buffers or the never ending deadlines ... oh i get it these are not lies because they where not really statements as such but just mere words that had no gurantee's behind them

...u make me lol..

So the many sock puppet account u have used is not lies or deceit either or are u going to pretedn that u HAVE NEVER USED ANOTHER account on these forums..

Come on give us a statement as such ... this will reaqlly give me a laugh...oh wait its time for the "Look the goodyear blimp" moment where u attack me or something else to change tack and subject ... oh josh josh josh u r too clever for me ..

I think you could remember this. I should book mark this page as it would be easier to find for you the next time you need a reminder as to why we are upset with your company.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg2139947#msg2139947

As for the trol accusations I have resisted in posting large quantities of thread on your forum. I'm not surprised that I should get that from you. I was your customer before and now I'm a troll? I used to defend your company and still do as for a vote on this thread and still I am a troll.

Are you taking the night off?

I provided evidence that you
- delete your old posting
- dox forum users.

I on the other hand asked you several times to provide evidence for your outrageous accusations (" ...You tried to cancel orders that weren't yours, you tried to get refunds for orders that weren't yours. ..."). Your reply: Silence.



Can you even read? I didn't complain about the photos/rednosing - I complained about your lies.
This is what I wrote: "I don't mind that you put photos online - but at least don't lie about it and don't deny your doxing attempts".


It was floating around because you've been the one that put it online. Of course you deleted the evidence (oh no, in your twisted reality the evil moderators did it).


Slok, all I want to say to you is this: Like attracts like. A shady company like BFL attracts shady, psychopathic fanboys like yourself.

I have provided enough evidence to proof that you are lying.

I'm not gonna waste any more time on you.

The following were decietful/lies:

1. Delivery Date: Check

2. FCC compliance: Check

3. Making statements in PR saying BFL has employees with the lots of experience in ASIC development then fail to be first to market: Check

4. Charity Bet you lost as well as BFL lost and then sort of paid with a BFL-based charity: Check


So as Yifu said at the Bitcoin Conference 2013:

"Either BFL was lying or they don't know what they were doing."

So either way you look at it, from either deceit or incompetence the #3 lie BFL (you) made put you folks in a paradox because if one is true the other shows you are a liar: incompetent or deceitful.

Yifu and the AVALON team could even see through your bullshit back in November 2012.

I've asked you to demonstrate where we've been deceitful or untruthful.  You keep claiming it, but you have yet to demonstrate this.  Therefore your are a troll.  Making mistakes and overestimations are not lies or deceit.  What you are doing, constantly claiming lies and deceit without any proof, is a lie.  You are being untruthful and deceitful.

Lie 1: There is no evidence that I deleted my old post because I didn't. Here is the PM "bitcoin forum" sent after that post was removed, because of the picture in it:

Bitcoin Forum
Guest
   
Deleted Post
« Sent to: SLok on: May 17, 2013, 03:01:02 PM »
« You have forwarded or responded to this message. »
   Reply with quoteReply with quote Remove this messageRemove
A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by a Bitcoin Forum moderator. Posts are most frequently deleted because they are off-topic, though they can also be deleted for other reasons. In the future, please avoid posting things that need to be deleted.

Quote
Cool! Pictures! How is that BFL refund coming along, Supertramp?
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/daargaje/planetFrizzS_zpsaec2d172.png

The fact that a post was removed, does not absolutely mean it was removed by the user, posts are deleted here by mods too, you see. Your provided evidence is worth nothing in this case, because it doesn't exist. Let me help you a bit more with an inbox screenshot, you like screenshots don't you?:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/daargaje/screenforfrizz_zps1b8f5fb4.jpg


lie 2: The post with your picture was placed before, with it you were also attacked about something that was apparently on your fb page or elsewhere about some Krishnamurty being a narcissist, look it up yourself. I can not see anything on fb pages because I don't have fb, but I told you that already.

lie 3: You know well that the topics you made at the bfl forum asking for cancellation and payback were removed, after a BFL moderator found that the order numbers you provided were non-paid orders or non existent. After being confronted you started raging and posting sexist homophobic rants and anti_Semite shit which lead to that. You know them well, the lot knows them well, that's why I said "anyone that has been around longer than a blue Monday knows what your trade is...".

lie 4: "I never made extra accounts here on bctalk", I already remembered 9 here you made twice, for this and the bfl forum without doing a search... You are a fraud, your poll is a fraud.

So, don't waste any more time on me, fine, but expect to get the attention you ask for when you keep posting your lies. 

And you are a retard!

Nah...just more of the "we're totally incompetent bumbling idiots...but not intentionally dishonest thieves defense". Too bad for BFL they themselves claimed to be experts and their COO repeatedly attacked the competition claiming they were the amateurs.

This is similar to the "Sonny isn't really a thief because goobermint is corrupt and out to get him" defense. Not exactly justification for stealing grandma's retirement, but hey, why mess up a perfectly good story.

So telling me to order in October and telling me that I could possibly get my unit by Christmas was a mistake? What would be a lie in your fantasy world of yours. Contempt for a customer? A willing to misrepresent the truth to accomplish a goal.

1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2: to create a false or misleading impression 

Are you kidding? You expect me and everyone else to believe that every time you said in the week of you were actually going to deliver that week?

For a year?

Who was mislead in October? The advertisers that you paid money to? Did you tell them you were going to deliver units as soon as you had the chips? Now that you have chips you need a board?

a)How about the 1/3 rule did you not mislead/lie to your waiting customers into thinking you were going to ship them in a way that would satisfy all pre-orders but as we know now that Jalas are the only units that you can ship now? Do you even read what I post?

b)How can you ship the chips now in bulk and say with a straight face you have not lied to your customers about the 1/3 rule? You have chips now and you promised and gave the impression that if you pre ordered now that you could be seeing one in late Dec.

Do you have any idea what your doing there? or are you misrepresenting the truth?

You have the constitution to post that you play the role of an asshole here on Bitcointalk.org to keep threads on top to have more attention brought to your website and in turn you get more pre-orders.

Do you even have a conscience or able to sympathize with people around you? Does everything in your life a goal to further yours. Do you even understand this or do you just make excuses for your self to make it bearable.

I could not live that way. Most people can't either.   

You just perfectly described a "Psychopath".

"Psychopathy is a personality or mental disorder characterized partly by antisocial behavior, a diminished capacity for remorse, and poor behavioral controls. ...

Psychopathy Checklist-Revised: Factors, Facets, and Items:
- Pathological lying
- Grandiose sense of self-worth
- Cunning/manipulative
- Lack of remorse or guilt
- Emotionally shallow
- Callous/lack of empathy
- Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
- Criminal versatility
- Parasitic lifestyle
- Lack of realistic, long-term goals
- Irresponsibility
..."

Here, let me translate your whole post and summarize for people:

"BBbbbut but but I mean, but umm, but I mean this, but wait no, but I mean yes but no but yes but no..."

That's basically you're entire post in a nutshell.  I've challenged you to find a single instance where we've lied or been deceitful.  You waffled, hemmed and hawed, I challenged you again and this is what you come up with.  "But what I really meant was..."

You lied, face it.  You made a statement that you knew to be untrue at the time, I told you to prove it, you failed to do so, and now you're changing your tune.

hey inaba aka needle dick
shut your piehole, ass hole,  you have let down every single one of your customers and you know it, you also know that if you don't push these jalas through the door before they are worthless due to difficulty, just about everyone will be asking for refunds,
you are possibly the worst operational manager or whatever you are, whatever you are your a failure at it,
your not smart, your not cool, and your not slick,
your a needle dick

Maged ? Theymos ?

Can you answer at least the above quoted question, please, if you're unable to answer about the %age threshold of forum trust it takes to tag BFL as scammer (78% being not enough) ?

You haven't been scammed as long as you ask for a refund and you get it. So go ahead and ask for a refund. In my opinion you will NEVER get your Minirig. (i remember it as the 1500Ghash model. i may be wrong here)

Inaba I personally wish you well. I really do. I believe I am at this point wasting my time trying to show the errors of your ways. If you can not understand why others are upset with you then I can't help you. I understand you better than you would think. I can read people very well and 99% of the time I can peg some one on the spot. I do read body language and most of the times I find its useful in many applications. Sales people understand what I am saying. Cops also are great at it and get a feeling for this. Poker players are classic experts as well. I also understand how public relations work and the strategies of showing you're vulnerable to gain sympathy and the use of anger to deflect and mislead topics. To ask the same questions to ware down your adversaries and make them lose patience and show anger to gain sympathy from other. I don't play those games. I understand those games. You are not that good and you will be cut loose if this turns bad. You do know that.

Naturally you will not agree with what I said but that does not change the fact that it is written here and you have read it. Thats all I need, your attention. I am done and I now will sit back and follow your progress. I will put my 2 cents in but no more cat and mouse games.    

I also don't want to put out an image that you are the victim here being harassed by trolls to have you look good on these forums. You know your a liar. I know your a liar and others that can figure this out also know. The ones that don't see it, well they will find out later and hopefully learn from their mistakes. After all its all mistakes no deceit.

Good luck and thank you for this learning experience.

And... since I may get refunded after a year of waiting, knowing I will NEVER GET what I ordered, this is not a scam ? Really ?
Well, this gives me a lot of business ideas, alll of sudden.  ;D

You see now? That is the scam, there lies the rub. No taxes have to be paid and no interest. The only cost is to keep track of all orders and pay the people to shuffle the paper work. The products are developed with the money coming in and when people hang in there they piss off older customers by just telling them to get a refund. When that is exactly what the game is and exactly what gets them off the hook. Later on raise prices to keep the perpetual pre-order game going. Its quite brilliant and impossible to figure out before hand.

Its all clean and it IS all legal.

Are we all seeing this now?

It makes sense why they are so eager to refund your money if you complain about them publicly. However if the price of bitcoin drops then we could see an interesting development sooner than later.

Sorry man, the only one lying here is you.  I've demonstrated that you have lied, pointed it out, provided links, etc...  I have asked you to demonstrate where I have lied and you have yet to produce any proof.  I've produced proof, you haven't... that would seem to be pretty conclusive who the untrustworthy/liar is, I'd take a long, hard look in the mirror at this point, if I were you.

Like I have said before I have the luxury of sitting back and watching. You on the other hand need to perform. I will enjoy the show. I no longer need to prove anything at least to you.

If you were me, you would feel bad for your situation. tick tock

There are other reasons to believe that the minirig won't happen, other than the overly-used "Scam" accusation. And one person's speculation that it won't is hardly a firm basis for a scammer tag. A few weeks ago, I was pretty sure that bit-fury wasn't gonna come to fruition either, but it's looking more and more like I was wrong about that every day. Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one, and some stink worse than others.

The answer has already been given, as to when you can call it a scam. If a user requests a refund and doesn't get it, you can call for a "scammer" tag. If you never request a refund, you can continue to wait patiently with everybody else, until BFL fills the order as soon as they can.

If you're gonna talk the talk, then walk the walk. If you want it declared a scam, request a refund, and if you don't get it, request a scammer tag. If you actually believe it's a scam, you should have requested a refund a LOOOONG time ago. Otherwise, STFU and wait like everybody else.

Here's just the most recent one.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3026-forced-refunds.html#post37336

BFL forced a refund on Xian01.

Can I get one that says "Cranky Curmudgeon"?

You know well that comment was made to someone who participated in a group buy, which claimed the guy actually handling the financials for that group buy said BFL did, and was never heard of again, ....

the comment right after:

Weak, Syke.

YOU have yet to produce any proof that BFL actually intends to deliver on it's promises. Why don't you stop chewing members of this forum for pointing out your failings as a person and as company and give us something real instead of dicking us around. The burden of proof is on you, not us. Companies that deliver what they promise don't have the backlash you do, go ask ASICMiner how they are doing customer wise. There doesn't seem to be any problems there because they actually did what they said they would.

You are a liar, and just an asshole otherwise (http://www.joshzerlan.com).

SLok you really lick ass well. I shall call you lickabatti from here on.

Xian01 was forced to eat a refund as a punishment. Thats a fact! if he deserved it is another story.

Still remains that BFL can and will force a refund if they choose to.

In that case I would be pretty sure it was a third party who chose not to pay the updated delivery prices not BFL cancelling his order.

To argue this would be a waste of my time however to bring back to the topic of being caught in a lie. BFL did send out emails that forced people to confirm on to the new customer que database thingy.

Many had to confirm their orders and as a result had to accept updated delivery costs and many chose not to accept the up in fees. I believe it was called being in limbo.

If you chose not to confirm your order it would not be cancelled however the delivery of the unit was technically held back until you confirmed your order which in turn required you to accept the new delivery price. Technically not cancelled just like technically not a liar.

Some of the most disgusting behavour for a company with the least amout of compassion or morality. After all it is BFL and should not surprise and seasoned veteran here that can think critically.

So folkes hows that for diabolical. Impressive work!!!

Right?

@Operatr SLok is also earning his keep on the BFL forum backing up Inabi-lity to tell the truth.

Weak, as ever.

Frizz23 posting the diagnose his shrink gave after he had nothing left to defend his lies and rigged poll (as an excuse??), Mooc_tals making things up, he has a jalapeno on order that won't make him money, oh no, he cancelled it already, and don't know what to come up with now other than attacks and more lies, that's it?

All that was asked;

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/daargaje/14_zps6d257f68.png (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/daargaje/media/14_zps6d257f68.png.html)

 where's the: had to accept updated delivery costs and many chose not to accept the up in fees.?

Ok I was wrong there. I admit that! The confirmation was to power specs that needed to be acknowledged.

Don't worry there are many more scammers around the world besides the convicted Sonny Vleisides that would need his services :)

lol thanks for asking this I have had a bit of help from the trolls you love.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1205251#msg1205251


Thats one lie.  Look at the date.

Sorry, not a lie.  We did not have any plans to raise the prices at that time.  However, in light of our increased costs due to the power usage, we were forced to raise the price.  But you already knew that... or are you saying that you're unable to understand cause and effect, so you're just posting randomly?  It honestly wouldn't surprise me if you're unable to understand a simple concept like that, but I thought I'd check.

So go on, lets see you find a lie.  You've yet to produce a single shred of proof for your assertions.  I look forward to seeing you flail about further.

Nice a whole 8 minutes. lol You liar!!! I think I'll add it as my signature

Awesome. You've been so thoroughly shown to be a liar that, quite literally, you are only able to come back with the timing of my post.  That is your only defense.  I guess we're done here.

Tick Tock the clock don't stop...

Sure doesn't!  And seems Jaly's are flying out faster and faster...  OOOhhh, we're almost to my order date!!!

Can't wait to (finally) start mining big(ger)-time.  Patience truly is a virtue, that I am very proud to possess.

Good job BFL following in the very footsteps of Satoshi -- delivering something to humanity that has not been delivered before.

Have fun with it for a few months, they will be useless by winter

OH tHX for teh newz; I surely won't have done a damn thing to expand my operation with all the coin i'll have mined in that timespan!!   :D ::)

Geez, i have an idea, expand your operation with the measly amount of bitcoins you mine the jala's in a couple months to buy MORE JALAS, if you don;t mind waiting another year PAHAHAHA

Fixed that for you:


http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/k9l5-1p-072b.jpg

Wow! So because you were unable make a good assumption about the power usage you WERE FORCE to raise the price? Why is that? But maybe you already knew that your devices will consume so much power and decided to advertise a lower consumption at a lower price in order to attract more customers. By your logic everything is possible. Who forced you to raise the price due to the increased power usage? Sonny? God? The cleaning lady? Who? And how exactly were you forced? A gun to the head? A carrot in your ass?

So you guys are not liars just incompetent morons, ok gotcha thanks for clearing that up.

Could you please expand on how any current ASIC miners either existing or being produced will "be useless by winter"?

http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o798/buddy3315/HAHAHA_zps7a9f0d62.png (http://s1343.photobucket.com/user/buddy3315/media/HAHAHA_zps7a9f0d62.png.html)

 current diff 15605633.00    est 18602222.61    19.20%    << It's up to 19 percent now. The screen capture was a few days ago where I put the estimated difficulty in the calculator. Its actually worse now 1% more worse.

Here is a graph of bitcoin diff over the last few months
http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o798/buddy3315/diff_zps73f41048.png (http://s1343.photobucket.com/user/buddy3315/media/diff_zps73f41048.png.html)

This is only the begining as price for the bitcoins are still profitable at current diff but at 18-19% every two weeks at every target set with the chance of going up faster with every little asic coming out how long will this be profitable for the jala's?

This is the only reason BFL is shipping these now. They know they soon will be useless and no one will buy them. They have only one purpose (bitcoin) they can't do scrypt.

So take the number 15,600,000 and add 18% every two weeks and see how much profit/time you have left.

If a Jally is useless by winter then so will every other ASIC currently available be, infact avalon/asicminer ones would be even worse off.

I actually did mind waiting a year -- but I also completely expected it.  I'll probably expand with mostly Erupters.  Depending on how awesome BFL's product turns out to be, I'll likely order from them again.  The wait time the second time around will likely not be nearly as long, since most of that wait time was them actually figuring out how to implement the device / engineer it to reach power spec and so forth.  The hard part is done.

Judging by BFL ethics they would deliver to you before the enormous back log that have been waiting for almost a year. Good luck.

or

Did I misunderstood that you're buying from a competitor instead. Not sure

Is that for real ?
Next you're going to tell people who ordered minirigs that the power usage increase makes it impossible, after all?

So you can tell anything today, and tomorrow...
 "Ooooh, look, the context have changed, so yesterday's truth is over, sorry. But I did not lie, since it was true yesterday."

You're very good, Josh, very, very good.

Always amazes me the energy and time people have rip on others. Especially those that don't have any skin in the game.
Great use of time to better ourselves.

That was 9 months back dumbass. Which product, priced 9 months ago, after a major overhaul using twice the amount of original planned chips, twice the board size plus ditto casing and powerbrick, is still at it's original price setting?
The Avalon maybe? Oh yeah, that stayed unchanged, I mean, it was ripped of it's power supply, and went up 5 times it's original pricing wasn't it?

Yeah. Minirigs and Singles orders are 9 months old, too... Guess they're buried with the ancient truth, now, poor things.  :(

But Avalon is DELIVERING 66+Ghash while BFL still has PRE-ORDER for their 50Ghash unit after 1 year of development :)

Avalon's epeen>>>> BFL's epeen

Tick tock

Does this imply you don't have an answer to the price change mechanism of hardware over 9 months time? The poor things are the fools standing by crying, probably because they won't be getting any. Tick tock, here comes my single 60GH/s, moved to production.Yeah, 300 minus the missing ones from batch one, slowly some batch 2 dripping in. Batch 3, the $8800 ones, hahahaha. Say it again, how a $2499 single won't have a roi, but the $8800 avalon you will get someday, will?

Boooooooringgggg...

How many jally's did BFL shipped?

I don't even want to start with the chip amounts that each company has sold...

How the fuck should I know that, want a guess? 500?
Chip amounts don't mean shit, sold GH does, so 300+600+600(?) x 66GH/unit = 99TH for Avalon,
For Bfl it is easier to count the chips and multiply by 4(GH) or 3, because sold units are unknown, so 70k chips x 4GH/chip = 280TH or 70k x 3GH/chip = 210TH,
Fill in what you expect in GH or TH for the loose chips on top of that for Avalon. BFL will probably sell the same TH on top as those 70k chips, as more units and loose chips. If you think Avalon will do better, whoopee, big deal. I think even my next units will be in my hands before Avalon's or BFL's loose sold chips will be build on boards.
So far everybody seems to be waiting, whether it is for their Avalons or their BFL units, same boat, different directions, I choose BFL.
Have a nice evening.

Na I'll sit this one out and watch. To risky

It's quite sad to watch how hard you defend BFL, It's almost like you are basically saying your'e too far in to turn back. You have convinced you're self that this fairytale is true and no one, absolutely no one is going to convince you other wise.

Like I said before I'm out and BFL is just to risky.

Like come on here are my choices

1) Give my money to a liar or criminal, depending on who we are talking about.
2) Give my money to a company that can't get their act together. Fails in FPGA and worse in Asics
3) If they do get their act together and they are not scammers and get the unit quick enough maybe just maybe I can get 2, maybe 3 months of ROI possibly 4 months.

Na I see a long shot and I'll let others go ahead. I still have all my money and my dignity. Besides there are more opportunities in the market with better odds then BFL.

Poor is not what I am.

Are you afraid yet? No? You should be...

Look at that difficulty jump in red. Now look at the hash rate, The hash rate has jumped 2 times more quicker than the previous 2 months. Not only is it going higher it's climbing 3X the rate with no stalling. Bitcoin prices are giving a brite green light for mining. Litecoin is atleast being stalled out by the price.

It will be very interesting to see the next 2 weeks estimate jump.

Just look at the stepping of the difficulty and there are not many asics out and were seeing these numbers. This is exponential growth and there is no stopping until the money stops. Just look at that last step. Aft we going to see a 6X jump for the next estimated difficulty?

Remember this is exponential

http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o798/buddy3315/DIFFest_zps4f044b7b.png (http://s1343.photobucket.com/user/buddy3315/media/DIFFest_zps4f044b7b.png.html)

Avalon and BFL and all Asic miners are fucking up bitcoin. Prices will drop I estimate or diff will shoot so fast that asics will be like GPU's and it won't take as long as it did with GPU's. This will be exponential even as it relates to time.

I can see asics will be the only thing on here and it will be the same profit as with GPU's but think of it as ever dumb fuck with a easy to run GPU farm. Like I said I'll sit this one out.

If you don't have your asic by now I am afraid you have missed the bus!!!!

That graph is unbelievable. The glory days of GPU mining are over that's for sure.  :-\

You can advertise this mystical device in your signature as long as you want - it won't be available for a long, long time.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/130608/mmlviw8x.png


A Single SC available today would make you some decent money.

A Single SC available sometime in 2014 (or god knows when BFL starts shipping something other than Jalapenos) will actually cost you money.

Are you really that stupid? Let me compare that again:
- UNITS: Avalon sold ~1200 units each having at least 66Ghash. They shipped around 400-450 (+- 100)  vs   BFL sold <70k units (variable hash rate from 5Ghash up). They shipped less than 100 and only the smallest units.  Avalon wins here.

- CHIPS: Avalon sold ~490000+ (that's 490 thousand) chips. They started to ship sample chips and soon will ship the actual chips   vs    BFL sold ~1000 chips(i may be wrong here). We will see when and IF will they ship them. Avalon wins again.

THashes doesn't matter. I'm talking about actual delivering stuff to people no matter the hash rate (ASIC only)

You may or may not get your units before Avalon's chips get soldered on the boards, but you are the only idiot who is still advertising a non-existing product.

I'm glad that i got another prompt reply from you SLok :D Or is it another retard Inaba's account?

I think I gave him quite a bit to think of when I posted that graph earlier. Actually I have updated info.
SLok and all those that are waiting for their pre-orders the difficulty has been revised and were about 75% accurate now!!!.

73.81%    accuracy
15605633.00 Difficulty now
19367339.56 Difficulty estimate in  2d 22hr 54m 28s
24.10% JUMP in the past 2 week

http://www.coincanary.net/images/bitcoin_kombat.jpg

Inaba is a pathological liar as well as a terrible human being, there is no winning here...

Yep. But once BFL goes belly up he will never get another job - other than plongeur.

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/k9l5-1v-3295.jpg

Oh shit I got a great Idea I'm making T-shirts with this picture.

Anyone interested in pre-order a 1000?

Estimated deliver in the week of July. Depending on supplies.

You mean "in two weeks (© BFL_Josh)"?

Definitely interested. But only if I have to pay fully upfront.

You must also cover up any shirt redesigns because of power and cooling issues or no sale

So exactly how many units do they have to deliver in order to get the scammer tag?

If they delivered 0 units, they probably would get the scammer tag.
If they delivered 1 unit?
2 units?

Right now they delivered ~5,000 units I think.

Mafia's can run several successful businesses and be loved by the public. They have great services like laundry mat chains and restaurants auto shops and nice large grocery chains. Now mind you their enemy is the government so they're a bit more efficient however not very legal all the same.

The scam is not in the products and I don't believe a scammer tag should be given to BFL for products being developed and delivered. What they should be tagged for was how they got to this point by using pre-orders to fund the research and development of the products.

If you believe they had venture capital and did not use pre-order money to RnD then why would you have to give 100% payment upfront for more than a year with a plethura of updates saying shipping was in a couple of weeks only to be disapointed. Why not just take emails or at most a 20% deposit.

When you buy a new home you sign the agreement with the builder and drop a 500 dollar check as a deposit and a month or two before the home is finished being built you go in to your lawyer and finalize your papers which your signature grants the bank to issue the rest of the funds.

Now this is a large scale purchase but even a bank won't send pre-order money until the home is in its final stage.

BFL has taken 100% payment for products that did not exists and to a certain degree still don't. If they had venture capital (anon source btw) why the 100% deposit?

This is all legal btw only because the consumers are naive,inexperienced and greedy.

Everything else you buy online is a finished product so payments in full are required. However I really don't know any other product out there you pay 100% and are still in development.

If anyone here does let me know.  

Dear Mods,

this is what BFL/Josh thinks about us:

That ain't good! Did Josh just call theymos a monumental asshole? If I recall, Atlas pulled a similar stunt, getting permanently banned after he even tried to bribe theymos to overlook it. Sadly, BFL's pockets are deeper than Atlas', flush with monumental assholes' money.

I wonder if there's a connection between Josh losing weight and his recent runnin' amok episodes. Surely, Sonny ain't back on cocaine like he was in Laissez Faire City with his Danny-O, this time trading the blow for a blow.

Meh. Sounds about right, actually...

Actually Josh is a self proclaimed asshole. I have proof too. He say's he masquerades as an asshole to get more business here. Really!

Here is proof
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136392.msg1622626#msg1622626
http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o798/buddy3315/josh_zpsb3edd07e.png (http://s1343.photobucket.com/user/buddy3315/media/josh_zpsb3edd07e.png.html)

Internets such a bitch

Not gonna lie, that's pretty awesome  8)

Thank you! I aim to please.

So I put a thread up in the custom hardware section with his lovely quote and it was deleted.  Did I do something wrong?  How come it was deleted, anyone know?

It was deleted because the mod of the hardware forum is blatantly biased in support of BFL.

He has hidden dozens of threads in 'OFF TOPIC' to conceal the history of lies going on for years now that BFL has spread. 

blah blah blah
People with no investment cry
blah blah blah
Internet cry fest

lol Ok I'll be watching what you say in Dec.

saving this for later

That was my initial thought as well, but I wanted to check if I had done something wrong first... 

This forum is a joke IMO, thankfully I read the entire Garr auction drama and now have a much clearer picture of how fucked up this place really is.  The level of fucked up in those two threads is astounding.

Mods on this forum have been purchased by BFL long ago. Now BFL just blackmails them from time to time by holding evidence of their corruption.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.0

Don't confuse the scammy gmaxwell fuckwit with "the mods" generally.

I got banned for posting about their CEO being a convicted mail scammer...I think they don't appreciate you pointing out the terrible people behind this terrible company on their own boards

I personally like Theymos, and casually chat with him on IRC at times. However, i must remind everyone that he is a younger guy. I also must remind people that this site is less than 2 years old, and was never meant to be the defacto standard in BTC interpersonal relationships. Some people hold too much weight in the 'authority' of this forum. Always do your due diligence.

As far as BFL goes, a few things are pretty clear.

1. they waited until other ASIC companies figured out the recipe, then began production of their own.
2. they most certainly funded "R&D" with preorder money
3. they have been trading/selling/mining with customer's preorder money and their "test" equipment.
4. They have been beaten at their own game by the very companies they used to call "dumb, idiotic, scamming, little china men". Said companies not only beat out their ETA, but also pricing and dependability.
5. they have been so inept that literally any chance of a decent ROI is virtually gone, as the net diff is still skyrocketing. Youre only going to make money or make a difference supporting the network, if you were in their first month of preorders.
6. their company is founded and ran by people who have federal fraud convictions, with millions stolen from the less fortunate and elderly.
7. the company is dishonest in just about everything they do. From raising prices so that customers dont request refunds, to the shoddy implementation of the first vouchers program, and the current chip credits program. Also see the most recent charity bet payoff for more evidence of this.

I'm sure this list could be extrapolated upon greatly.

99% Fraud as viewed through the eyes of the majority. Stop defending these son's of bitches and their half ass way of doing business and the other half ass way of scamming people. I'm gathering info and going to wreck them on bitcoinscammers.com (http://bitcoinscammers.com)

I actually agree with you for once.

The thing is, if BFL becomes tagged, there isn't a problem of lower ad revenue, maybe they'll even get more donations.

It's a problem of a chain reaction, BFL might just vanish, and with millions of dollars. And if they do have the resources to make the ASICs or even have them at the moment, we could be looking at a serious attack (maybe not a 51% on Bitcoin, but they could give a pool the power to 51%).

Hell, if they're millionaires, they don't care about Bitcoin anymore. They can a) destroy it or b) take all the Bitcoins, both of which won't be good.

I used to be in the camp of not rocking the boat. At this point the creature has been created and nurtured by decent peoples apathy and greed. In all honesty the damaged to bitcoin has already been done. BLF is and will continue to be what it is. I have no problem with that.

To sit here and complain its the Moderators fault is just stupid. The fault lies in the people that have given their money to this company and they deserve to feel the pain of bad judgement. As I am recalling that is what capitalism is all about. I was one of those that gave them money and also requested a refund. So although I have no skin in the game my judgement on what should happen is the same. I would deserve to lose my money. I would not be happy but I would deserve it for giving my money upfront with no guarantee of a ship date.

To have faith you say? Well faith is in god, this is business.

To the bitcoin community stop relying on authority to protect you, use your brain and protect your own interest.

If that's the case, then BFL is blackmailing the entire Bitcoin community.

This calls for drastic action. Have tire iron, will travel. The plan is to stick in the gears of the windmill outside their facility. That'll slow 'em down.

/me nods his head.

Genius plan.

BFL probably already spent a very large proportion of the preorder money on R&D. If this is the case, they won't have much incentive to run away. They'll make more money by successfully delivering the product and then selling more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUvgF4u3mSc

How about a little easy listening music.

1. Are they not still taking in funds, albeit at a much smaller rate? It's just about production now.
2. If they run they'll have some money and quite a lot of ASIC chips - they could make a lot of money mining Bitcoin (and panic might be caused if a few TH/s just drop on and off the network), or attacking the blockchain to commit fraud.
3. They might make more money by delivering it, but I doubt many people will order from BFL after this is cleaned up.

Except that BFL has stated they have not used pre-order money for R&D or operational costs.  IF we believe this then there still appears to be a pretty massive reason to run away.

Learn it already.

Yeah, karma doesn't bring your money back when you send someone $20k.

I want to ask everyone here a few questions. I don't really need anyone to reply as it will attract people that will say negative responses.

When you placed your orders for minirigs or singles(like me) did you get any gut feeling when things were going wrong? I had a KNOT in my gut for 30 days after the 1st month. It became worse when I found out about Sonny and it grew in intensity after every delay from BFL.

Did anyone else feel that? I sure did.

Did anyone feel like they were being attacked by BFL parrots spouting "just request a refund so I can be move further ahead of the que" and how you had to have faith in BFL as they are not a scam as they have delivered before?

Anyone?

I always trust that feeling. This is why I believe people deserve the punishment in the form of lost funds. I know its harsh but this is not suppose to be a lottery. You purchased a product and it was to be delivered to you. So faith has nothing to do with it.

The problem isn't whether idiots deserve punishment (they do), the problem is whether idiots deserve to be delivering the punishment (they don't). That's the problem here, that people like Sonny, Inaba, gigavps, Harnett, Kenna, Owens, Rosenfeld, Usagi, tawsix what have you fill the list to the hundred+ names made even a single bitcent off this entire thing is what's wrong.

Because, again, these malignant idiots (to be distinguished from the "benign" idiots they raped) turn around and support the wrong things with their ill-gotten gains. Much more credible swindles and scams like the "bitcoin foundation" etc.

Don't get me wrong I don't disagree with you here at all. However this is how it works. Organized criminals always bend the rules. People on the take are always patsies and honest people see the crime and turn their heads and ignore it. When no one feels it their concern to bring justice it always ends up that way. I'm just tired of telling benign idiots that they're getting fucked when they just tell me to shutup and cancel my orders so their greed can be compensated at an earlier time. Fuckem let them burn, let them all burn.

Exactly! Finally, you see the light! BFL is spending their profits to successfully deliver product so that they can do it all over again. It's this madness that I, among others, are trying to put a halt to.

<s/ off>

And now that they are refusing refund requests, I guess you agree they have successfully risen to scam status.

Kind of an immaterial point. Before they issued 1-5% refunds (you deposited 1k BTC in Sept 2012? Here's your 30 BTC refund in April 2013, well done, good business, come again). Now they issue 0% refunds. Arguably no difference of any import.

You should come point out their illegal activity in the thread below and then maybe convince Theymos to create a CRIMINAL tag.  The old scam tag has now ended (apparently) and so this thread like the entire scam section is no longer important I suppose.  Let's start a new CRIMINAL tag....

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=247310.0

Driving down I-55 south then I-70 east, right?