Bitcoin Forum

Welcome, feel free to post what you think about Biblepay here.

Thanks t-Mike..

For those who have felt censored this is a more open forum.  

this is not an "OFFICIAL" thread, but it's started/run by folks who care about the coin and having real discussions that cannot take place in the official thread.

I went ahead and cross posted it here since I know there's a good chance this will be deleted by Rob A.

The webarchive version is here: http://web.archive.org/web/20180917003051/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.10200


Perhaps we have different definitions. If you receive 8.6M to BB2 then send it to your BD7, this technically is sending payment to Orphan Foundation. But this is just one step away to commingling with personal funds.

https://explorer.biblepay-central.org/tx/f9fd0a104f0df35b6f40d2a4c153b6875ab28c34b9df83ea57797c7a7a655fb5

On Aug 31, 8.6M was disbursed. On Sep 8, you moved them to BD7. Along with 70+ inputs that are you masternodes, you went ahead and created several more masternodes from those funds.

#1 No one asked you pre-sell BBP.
#2 No one asked you break apart your masternodes

If keep a separate wallet exclusively for Compassion funding and don't mix it with your personal BBP, that's the cleanest way for people to perceive there's nothing shady going on.

For those with masternodes:
YOUR VOTE COUNTS.

Currently Rob(aka biblepay) seems to have 84 ACTIVE masternodes he votes with.  

With these numbers, he controls roughly 1/3 the ACTIVE masternodes and 2/3 of the VOTING masternodes.


As of today he has effectively wiped out the "NO" votes for the team requirement proposal.

Please participate, just like anything your vote matters.

Summary:
 Total Votes: 120  Votes Yes: 78 No : 40 Final: 38
Robs Votes: 40  Votes Yes: 40 No : 0 Final: 40


His other new pet feature:

a47400f3afc64f31531ce8bc7d02847366106a2cd9ac6509fa4d5f98ba4808c1
Sat, 15 Sep 2018 15:13:11 -0500  -  Sat, 15 Sep 2018 15:13:11 -0500
Should we implement Quantitative Tightening in BiblePay?
Rob: voted:  YES  Sun, 16 Sep 2018 08:43:03 -0500raw: 1537105383
Rob: voted:  YES  Sat, 15 Sep 2018 19:12:21 -0500raw: 1537056741
 Total Votes: 2 Votes Yes: 2 No : 0 Final: 2
 Robs Votes: 2  Votes Yes: 2 No : 0 Final: 2

Could it be that the pre-selling is partly because Compassion has to be paid before a certain date each month and the superblock has some variation in terms of it's date?

He said on the BBP forum that it was because of price.

I support the coin and Rob too, but motive on pre-selling is not an excuse for:

1) Lack of disclosure
2) Insults when questioned about something so vital to the mission of the coin

I personally believe Rob did not financially benefit from this and did this in the best interest of the charitable funds that were raised, but there needs to be far more disclosure for the community at large to take us seriously.  It's small incidents like this that make it more understandable why we're viewed by some critics as a scam coin.  However, I do believe the records support our charitable expenditures and the critics are incorrect, but any ammunition for them such as this is not good.

I gave up on this coin when the lead dev (Rob) threatened to label me a satanist because I had a difference in opinion. He also thinks he ran a "successful" BOINC project in the past. In his eyes it may have been "successful". In the eyes of the BOINC community it was poorly ran and never addressed some major issues it had. An example is hard coding the BOINC data directory into your app. This is unnecessary as the BOINC client handles this. Many BOINC users deliberately move the data directory elsewhere to avoid things like apps taking too much storage or too much IO usage on the primary disk. His app was buggy and would balloon on multiple hosts with different OS's. I saw it multiple times taking up several GB's of space which it would not release without manually deleting. He refused to fix the issues the project had. And he tried to punish those that spoke out. One of the worst projects I ever contributed to and I've supported well over 100 of them.  

I personally do not trust him.

I'm sorry that happened to you. His attitude towards some of us has caused a lot of anger, sadness, and some division. I hope you know that God loves you whether you are a Christian or not and that we are sticking around to see more people in need be helped.

-Mike

Yes, I believe this is true. Being that months in the year is anywhere between 28 to 31 days, I can see the Compassion sponsorship and monthly distribution will have flux.

You can still sell BBP after you receive it without ever involving your personal wallet addresses. You can also build a buffer like BiblePay has already done with Compassion. The buffer is there so you have some wiggle room for BBP volatility, and other external factors such as monthly superblocks and # of days in a month change.

I want to be clear that even though Rob makes it personal, I've never insulted in personally. I only criticize the process and wish to bring more people to BiblePay by having a process newcomers can understand and trust. Rob's a brilliant guy. I wish he made an effort to receive criticism with an open heart and play nicely with others.

Oh I'm aware God still loves me. I just want others to know what kind of person he is. I don't see a "Godly" man going around threatening to label others as "satanists" simply because they disagree with him or dislike some of the behavior he may have been a part of...

If the team membership requirement was removed, I would return. However, I have a strong sense of dedication to my team and will not switch simply because HE is mimicing Gridcoins marketing success. However, what he should be watching it Byteballs success without NEEDING to require the team membership.

The problem is Gridcoin is in the blacklist to prevent "abuse" per Rob

The current vote is in favor of lifting the requirement (although that is heavily weighed by Rob's majority of normally voting masternodes), and the forum poll is in favor of mimicing Byteball and giving members of Team Biblepay full reward and all others a smaller percentage reward (although Byteball prefers to call their team membership a bonus...it's all the same in the end).

Most of the threads like this are posted on Speculations (Altcoins). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=224.0)

thanks for the clarification, 
MODS: Can you move this if you think that's a better place?

You can do it alone, at the bottom left there's the button "Move topic".

I wouldn't categorize this as speculation. Opinions about the dev are opinions... but the number of masternodes owned by lead dev is fact based on public blockchain data. But I'm not a mod, so I don't the history of the forum and what's best.

thanks for this thread about dev-scammer-liar-1man show project

its sick when dev is owner almost 2/3 MNs .... betweeen our DASH users is this fraud-coin when im asked

1 theory

big investors comes to BBP and theyll buy enormn numbers of MNs and then stop sponsoring orphans via antivoting Robs proposals....whats happen?

his bullshits about cancelleing his MN and then selling sponsors BBP is manipulation ...


next 2-3 months will be nice for orphans:who will be sponsoring? NOBODY

how many MNs will they need -- 70+ MNs? If they are $8k each, that is $56k USD. that's assuming 84 masternode count is correct.


What kind of manipulation do you think it is? Can you provide specifics? I think maybe there is opportunity to make interest on masternode but he often gives a few percentage more than required. i'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, and don't think rob is dishonest with orphan fund. pre-selling is odd especially when you have 1-6 month compassion buffer already where you don't need to pre-sell.

sunk818 you cant write that MN is for 700€ .... when big investor start to buy bbp....price will be raising

yes.,im wrote about pre-selling.... why he controling OPRHANS MNs and using it for vote self proposals? ... its manipulations.... im DASH users citation


so what happen when big 2-3 investors stops sponsoring orphans? will be next manipulation from Rob side? 

First off,  Slovakia welcome over.   

Second,  we could looks for the transactions where he "sold" masternodes to cover the cost of the orphans...

Though considering he is making enough for a new MN every week (or to fund the 8mil for orphans) monthly off just MN payments this does seem odd.. (this is not taking into account mining rewards).

Cross-Posting here since I expect this will be deleted on the other side.



This is rich coming from the person that call anyone that disagrees with him a Satanist, and seems to be calling people names more frequently....
Why do you insist on publicly deriding people?

If Jesus did this, Christianity simply would not exist...  

Also, there is a huge difference between a "Satanist" (ie one who WORSHIPS satan) and a "Pagan" (Anyone else’s religion or belief system that rests outside of their own religion.)

As for what my mother did or did not teach me,  this statement alone shows your character sir.

Correct,  the masternodes would required ~105 million BBP (around 46k USD) assuming 700$/node.

Though if several new people join the team, it would be beneficial..  every new MN helps

I think its only provable that the Dev owns about 84 of the roughly 330 nodes of which about 240 are enabled.  So he owns about 1/3 the active (enabled) nodes.  The issue is the lack of votes from other masternodes, on average only 130 of the nodes vote on a proposal, so in that way he does in fact own 2/3 the voting nodes and enough to personally skew any vote how he wants (since if everyone that normally votes voted the opposite, the dev would have net 38 vote lead sufficient to pass a proposal since our coin requires a net 10% to pass).  The response is to have more people voting, as he does not hold even close to the majority if the rest of the community acted in concert with each other.

I personally think what he did (pre-selling) was in the best interest of the fund but was handled incorrectly and should have been explained and approved in advance.

next supposition is, that Rob is owner 90% MNs and 10% is simple users ..... dont understand why BBP doesnt make MN from his mined 43M  https://explorer.biblepay-central.org/address/BBH41mAMfVE1cWwHX41mmG1aFBrdiknQyv  its 27 MNs



and i believe,that for 2-3 years can ONICHAN beats Robs MN with his mining 150k daily  then will be vote against orphans and Rob can commit suicide  ;D ;D ;D

For Oni, It doesn't appear he is interested in masternodes.

As for the suicide comment, please lets be civil here..   Suicide is serious topic and should not be taken lightly.

we can check ONI bbp if he has any MN

btw our all explorers is dead

any guide for explorer....my husband can do it for us

We need a reasonable solution to Rob's apparent control of the outcome for any MN proposal. The best win-win scenario I can think of is for Rob to join us in solving the imbalance by contributing to this conversation.

For the good of the project and the children, he may be willing to voluntarily recuse himself in some fashion, either by agreeing to limit the number of votes he casts, or by not voting on his own proposals (or any crony props). Of course he would still have all of his MN votes to use if needed to defend against take-over attempts by evil players or other matters involving his conscience.

We're brothers and sisters in Christ. And just like His early disciples we will answer to the Lord personally. The world is watching us to see if we're genuine. Love/agape is the power we've been given. God is working thru us and his Holy Spirit is in us. His will be done.

Amen!

He is welcome to join us over here..  I don't feel this is a discussion that can take place in the main thread unfortunately.

Transparency and accountability is what we have been looking for.   I'm not ANTI-Rob,  and I hope he will participate in the discussion.

Thanks for this thread as well.

is slovakia your husband?  ;D :D

You can try this Explorer.
https://explorer.biblepay-central.org/

Ah, I see it, thank you. I'm going to keep it here for now and move it if I really need to.

There was no premine or ICO, check the main ANA.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.0

May God bless you!

for mining BBP you getting 3 others coins = Byteball and DCC and NEUMANNIUM (ANN)

starting dumping price of BBP to ZERO  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Please....  Feel free to take advantage of the buy's but why do you want to hurt the orphans this sale is going to help?

Yes, our focus should be on the children.

Rob wants to work with us on improving the MN voting system to make it more balanced and democratic. Yesterday he said that he will not vote inappropriately with his sanc weight.  

He also suggested that we "construct a true case for an improvement and discuss it for a while amongst each other - and then give it to a director that represents biblepay in a full coherent way and then forward to me."

It should be relatively simple to do this. Let's put our heads together and come up with a reasonable limit on the number of votes that any multiple MN owner casts for a proposal. The vote-limit number can be based on a percentage of the total voting MNs.

While the number of votes would be limited for each MN owner, they could still continue to own as many MNs as they choose.

Since there probably is no way to enforce compliance for every current or future MN whale, this would be a voluntary limit with compliance overseen by the community. We ultimately have to rely on the Lord for a good outcome. As long as we do His will, we will be successful.

What are your thoughts?

He said "You will all just have to trust that I won't vote inappropriately with my sanc weight."  The phrasing of this concerns me a bit, but let's see how things progress.

I agree if there are guidelines he agrees to, this would be awesome.

And we're still waiting to hear who the directors are..  This makes it a bit hard to communicate with them.

despite that,  I would propose something along the lines of:

1.  Don't vote for your own proposals (or if you must limit to 5? votes)
2.  Limit voting on general proposals to less than 10% of the "Active" masternodes.

Especially #1.

In the past, some sloppy proposals were added that were half baked without any pre-proposal discussions. Its up to the proposer to mend this, but its up to him/her whether they want a pre-proposal discussion. I will say though that the content of what you vote should not change for the duration of the proposal. It comes off as amateurish and careless when the content of a proposal morphing on a daily basis. This is why the pre-proposal discussion is important to realize the different points of view and re-work your proposal with those considerations in mind. If we continue using forum.biblepay.org, I'm really against amendments... but if the proposal needs to be revised, it could be amended at the end explain why it is being revised. Or use another system altogether where revision history and discussion are available without having to register new accounts and the usual facebook, google, twitter, github, etc logins are already supported.

pool.biblepay.org as a website is terrible, if you want to increase the value, you should start to review and remake completely pool website, user unfriendly, long waiting times, no possible to refresh site without crash to unknown status.

https://wiki.biblepay.org/index.php?title=BiblePay_DAO&oldid=5861&diff=prev

Apparently, the Foundation board initially consisting of 6 members, has changed to Sanctuaries.

If Rob owns 80 sanctuaries out of 240, that gives him 33% power.

1 out of 6 or 1 out of 5, is anywhere from 16% to 20% voting power.

If this is true, he gets double in voting power.

https://i.imgur.com/nOfSNnQ.png

https://discontinuo.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/bbp32.png

can you please explain how to get DCC rewards on boinc ?
is it using grcpool ?

Agreed.... I would like to see more "Pre-Proposals" an informal poll before we start down the path of a new feature.  (or if we need a formal vote, lets do this prior to starting work as just a "should we evaluate it further")

I think he is referring to what used to be called "Sparc" https://alpha.sparc.network/index.html  their coin is now DCC but i don't know of any place that trades the tokens yet

I agree this is concerning, I wonder why he made it, hopefully he will explain.

It changed yesterday but nobody was notified...  Thanks for keeping an eye on the wiki for us!

And keep in mind that WCG rewards haven't worked since the privacy laws went into effect. So, the system is what it is as they have no intention in fixing the Alpha portion. There is also no guarantee how much longer the Alpha will continue.

Here is my how to though if you need it.
https://hardforum.com/threads/how-to-get-sparc-during-the-alpha-phase-using-boinc.1953164/

Also, keep in mind that there are a hand full of projects that were on the list that are now closed.

Hey.
Tell me how to get these coins? The BBP has finally begun to be mined. Before that, for some reason, they did not add, although I did everything according to the instructions. In a day they began to be mined.

BBP has been mined since July of 2017.  As far as Byteball, DCC and Nuemannium, there are good guides out there for the first and third if you google (I don't have the links very handy at the moment) and the middle one (DCC formerly known as SPARC) is at https://alpha.sparc.network/index.html.  All three work although there is no market I'm aware of for SPARC, and the only market for Nuemannium is through the WAVES wallet trading, which you can only trade NEU for WAVES...and it's not worth very much at all.

Glad I was there during the first announcement of Biblepay and actually participated through it's success. I'm feeling so stupid to sell off all my biblepay coins that I got in mining for cheap. Biblepay has been successful to distinguish it as a useful coin and have it's mark on the cryptosphere.

SPARC=DCC working= rewards is every friday

guys: his majesty ROBERTKO deleted all shits about QT? https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?topic=264.0


hahahaha....something inconceivable again  ::) ::) ::)

i normally begin to think that he invented anything for his prospect

Yes I think QT was an idea without any concrete specification. There were many questions on the table regarding this. As usuall without any relevant answer. Author thinks that this could increase demand after BBP but its mistake. We still have a free market that would also advise on this speculation very well.

I'll reply to both of you at the same time.

Yes, I was a bit disappointed to see the thread disappear.  He has also withdrawn the actual proposal as well, so I suppose it's fair.
Perhaps the issue will come up again later and can actually be discussed.

Seems almost a moot point if Governance of the forthcoming BiblePay Foundation will be based on masternodes.

is this function?  https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?topic=254.0


can we go away from group of BBP?

It's not live yet... I don't know when this will be updated

thesnat21 would know exact count, but I think Rob voted using many of your masternodes to approve his proposal. so, right now, he has 80+ masternodes so any proposals he makes, he can pass with his masternodes. not everyone votes, so this makes it easy for him to vote with fewer masternodes and still have proposal pass.

you only need 10% yes to pass. so if there are 380 masternodes, you need net yes vote of 38. right now, it is 42 so this proposal will be approved unless the votes change.

https://discontinuo.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FS20180921-41.jpg

maybe in the future, it makes sense for devs to send proposal for specific work they plan to do. if it is a big feature it should be discussed before hand and a separate proposal made. so, there's a delay of 30 days maybe, but it would give time for discussion to see if it is something people want. right now, devs do whatever they want even if the community thinks its a bad idea. even if you put it to a vote, rob with 80+ masternodes means anything he wants will pass... so he just does the work he wants even before a proposal passes.

i can appreciate this slows does coding because you have discussion beforehand, but isn't consensus more important than just making new features? in a way, its good for dev too because you can plan out your work one month in advance and maybe spend time with family or do other stuff in between.

I believe voting is closed for this superblock cycle...

Rob will announce when the change will take effect.

We'll let Rob explain the change from directors to sanctuaries for the foundation, but I suggest we complete our "true case for an improvement" for the MN-vote issue and give it to him for feedback.

We've got the basics in place, is there anything else to consider?

What are your thoughts?


How do you determine Active masternodes? Can we simplify? Maybe:

limit voting to 10% of the total masternodes ? So if there is 300 total masternodes, you can use up to 30 masternodes you own? Or is that too much power still?

No ...  The I believe vote is based on 10% of the "active", we could easily exceed that if we take all MN's into account.

Granted this could change but it should not vary by a wild margin.  (Look for the "ENABLED" status nodes, you can filter this in the wallet easily)

While it would be entirely impossible to enforce, I would like to see the following.

For the Foundation:

If it really is changing to Sanctuaries, here are some thoughts.  The Foundation is set to be a corporate entity (non-profit mind you).  So first, the Foundation if switching to Sanctuaries should be staffed by a council.  That council should be voted upon by the Sanctuaries in my mind.  But I would like to see for the Foundation vote ONLY , votes to require true identification of who a voter is and how many Sanctuaries they are claiming (and of course there would need to be proof of ownership).  The Foundation members should be elected by their true identification as well, although if an individual chose to say "My Name is John Smith and my BBP handle is CryptoBear123" that would be good too (but not required, although I'd personally be wary of voting for a non-community member).  Foundation members should be required to verify their holdings, not necessarily in a down to the penny way, but broad strokes such as own 10-20 MN and hold 5-10M BBP.

For general Governance voting:

While again, it would be based on trust, I would think no one individual should vote more than 10% of the outstanding votes, and furthermore, the should never vote more than 5% of the outstanding votes "no".  This is because the must win by 10% margin of nodes, makes it far easier to spoil a vote than pass a vote.  I'm lukewarm on if I'd be in favor of limiting votes for one's own proposals beyond a 5% quantity of outstanding votes, as in the future I'm of the belief the percentage of nodes that vote will actually go down, and prohibiting voting on your own entirely is a very high bar if you happened to hold a significant number of the normally voting nodes.


Additionally, on another topic, but tangentially related, I would like see further enhancements of the Sanctuary system, specifically the ability to name one wallet with the voting rights, a second wallet with the staking rights and a third wallet with the reward rights.  For most this would all be the same wallet.  DASH is working on this now.  

I would really like to see if it was feasible to do two more grand ideas which would help the coin I believe.  The first is coin leasing, where you could lease your coins to another wallet for a predefined time for a predefined cost.  The second grander idea works best with the preceding.  That is to allow multiple payees from a single block reward (either Sanctuary Reward or PoDC payouts).  If we could do both of the preceding, you basically would have a no risk - low work, shared Sanctuary, or shared Staking.  I'm not aware of any coins that have that feature, and it would build on the features we have now and improve them.  I think that sort of development could pay bigger dividends (that is extending the functionality of a current feature) than trying to work on entirely new features.

I have made a few guides here - https://hardforum.com/threads/mining-cryptocurrency-guides.1953299/#post-1043455720
If you sign up to run Electroneum please PM me for a referral code so that we both earn more ETN.

what is businness objects new address in wallets?  ??? :o

http://explorer.biblepay.org:3001/ still not working.

Sorry I have no idea what you're asking




Togo is still re-indexing the explorer,  adding a longer transaction history count.

For clarification, what are "outstanding votes"?

Also, will you give us an example(s) that include the different aspects you've discussed:

1) no one individual should vote more than 10% of the outstanding votes
2) they should never vote more than 5% of the outstanding votes "no". 
3) This is because they must win by 10% margin of nodes
4) in the future I'm of the belief the percentage of nodes that vote will actually go down

Thanks

The data will be stored on ipfs (decentralized file system). You can add contact information. Churches can register their location and email. If you want to send someone bbp using their email address, this will be possible in the future. It doesn't have to be church only, you could register your email and I could send you bbp by email.

How does now the writing letters section working? I wrote a letter to adopted child. I got only 6 votes during few weeks. Deadline was 22th of september. On pool biblepay org page I see only 3 letters together. Only 3 letters have been written this month??? My letter is still not sent. Is this working or not exactly?

Thanks for answers.

I think that it's good when dev controls a good amount of supply, but not too much. Devs are more active when they have their stake. Thanks for the interesting info about BBP dev masternodes  :)

There are 345 masternodes, ***assuming*** Rob operates 87,
that is 25.2% of all masternodes, and only 14.1% of all coins in circulation,
is this centralized for a coin worth $450k?

Strangely, only 249 of the 345 masternodes are in the ENABLED state (Why is this?)
87/249 is 34.9% voting power, is this centralized?

Weirdly, only 160 masternodes have ever voted each month,
This means Rob is given 54.3% voting power with others choosing not to vote,
this is not enough to push his own proposal through if most active voters vote against him though

Rob has some of the most experience in the space, has done the vast majority of the work, understands all the technical details, and he probably has the most time and money invested, the most skin in the game, if the project fails he loses his money

Is Rob still bound by the forces of the free market? Yes

Also, How many of you guys own Bitcoin?
How many of you guys own stocks in Amazon, Tesla, Walmart, or Facebook?

Satoshi Nakamoto owns around 10% of Bitcoin
Jeff Bezos owns 17% of Amazon
Elon Musk owns around 19% of Tesla
Walton Family owns over 50% of Walmart
Zuckerberg owns around 15-20% of Facebook

If you want voting power, put skin in the game, put your money on the line and step up to bat 8)

Theres over 34+ million BBP in sell orders on the exchanges right now,
Theres 14+ million BBP that gets paid out to proposals every month and most have to be sold right away,
Theres hundreds of miners who need to sell BBP to pay electricity bill every month.

If someone wants to invest $100k-300k like Rob and his fellow investors probably did, then go ahead!

=

Understanding BiblePay Masternode Governance:
http://wiki.biblepay.org/UnderstandingGovernance

=

Masternode Setup Guide:
http://wiki.biblepay.org/Create_Sanctuary_2

Masternode Statistics/ROI:

- MasterNodes.pro: https://masternodes.pro/stats/bbp/statistics
- MasterNodes.online: https://masternodes.online/currencies/BBP/
- MNCN.online (Chinese): https://mncn.online/coins/BBP
- TradersGateway: http://www.tradersgateway.net/currencies/BIBLEPAY/Biblepay.html
- Mintnodes: https://www.mintnodes.com/coins/BBP

Masternode Hosting/Sharing:

- Gin: https://gincoin.io/
- Apollon: https://apollon.one/
- Mintnodes: https://www.mintnodes.com/

Masternode Monitoring:

- NodeCheck.io: https://nodecheck.io/
- BiblePay Central: https://www.biblepay-central.org/en/masternodes/

One question only. Why do you think he has invested 100-300k usd?

http://explorebiblepay.com/  KO
http://explorer.biblepay.org:3001/  KO
Circulating Supply on CMC KO


coin card  ;D ;D ;D

and TOGO:ROBS WATCHDOG= junkie guy

If someone wants to invest $100-300k like Rob hahahahahahahahahahahahaha... best joke on BTT forum  yaaaaaaaaay sorry, 100$ .. ITS OK

and yes, when somebody controling so huge amounts of MN= its centralized coin


and yes,TOGO,is totally mistaken

Outstanding votes:  I mean we have 346 Sanctuaries in the info screen.  The margin to pass a proposal is 10% of the total Sanctuaries, so that is important to understand the arguments I make.  In hard numbers, right now, a proposal has to have 34 or 35 net yes votes to pass; i.e., 70 yes , 40 no = 30 net yes...less than 34 so failed proposal, 100 yes 60 no = 40 net yes greater than 34 so passed proposal.  So when I refer to outstanding votes, I mean the 346 Sanctuaries that are eligible to vote.

In the below examples I'll use the number 34 for outstanding votes and margin needed for passing.  I'll use 50 as the "whale" voter.  I'll use 120 as the normal votes cast (when the whale is limited, there will be 86 other votes cast).

1) No one should vote more than 10% of the outstanding votes "yes".  This means someone who controls 50 Sanctuaries (in the current environment) should only vote yes with no more than 34.  This would be enough to pass a proposal if no one else voted.  Otherwise, it would turn it into a simple "rest of the majority" rules situation (that is to say, if the community was evenly split, it would pass).  I think this is fair as someone with 50 or more Sanctuaries has a lot of skin in the game, but limiting it to 10% of the outstanding votes means the rest of the community gets their consensus passed.  So if the whale votes yes 34, the rest of the community will stop it if they vote 42 yes 44 no (only 32 net yes), but it will pass if they vote 43 yes 43 no (34 net yes)

2) Because it is a hurdle to get proposals passed, no one should vote more than 5% of the outstanding votes "no".  This means if the "whale" votes 17 no, then the community can override the "whale" with a super majority of the remaining votes.  So the rest of the voters could vote 43 yes, 43 no and it would fail (17 net no), 69 yes 17 no and it would pass (net 35 yes).

3) Margin of victory is 10%.  Explained in the preamble.

4) In the future I'm of the belief the percentage of Sanctuaries that vote will go down.  Right now the highest number of votes in the last round was 142.  Most of the time 125 is more average.  At 125, that means about 1/3 of the Sanctuaries vote.  Notwithstanding that someone (most likely Rob) has cast the super majority of those votes, the general feeling is that there are about 50 votes at least that are not his.  So excluding the theorized Rob votes, 50 is about 15% of the outstanding votes.  Looking a DASH, they typically don't see much more than 20% of their Masternodes vote.  If we limited ourselves the the above figures, we'd see 20-25% voting, there have only been a small percentage of DAHS votes that have had that turnout.  As Sanctuaries begin to be spun up solely for income, they will increase the number of outstanding votes, yet be the most unlikely to vote about most issues.  Put another way, if BBP Sanctuaries were $75,000, you woudn't see many individuals starting them, it would finally get to the point most new ones would be investors.  They'll be less concerned about most issues than the average dedicated user (which is what we have now).

The Biblepay Foundation (TBF) was thought to avoid tax problems for the individuals to liquidate the charity funds. On the other side, it had the risk of increasing centralization.

After learning that charities could be payed in BTC (thus avoiding tax prosecution for individuals), the whole TBF could be left behind, so we could have a DAO-like organization and avoid the centralization issue.

On the other side, we still need to incorporate some sort of company to allow us to develop the iOS wallet app (Apple is very strict on this and won't allow individual accounts to publish anything that sounds like trademarked) and we still need to improve on communication and prepare a solid continuity plan for the development and roadmap.

As you may understand, it's not easy to do centralized stuff pretending to be decentralized and it's difficult to have a unique, visionary team lead and at the same time pretend to be a bazaar-like open source project.

All these imbalances will be ironed as the project makes progress and it's really feasible to evolve to a full DAO system.

It's inevitable that crypto decentralization in it's current form will not last. This is because it is rapidly coming under government regulation, as all markets historically do.  

The smart choice as Christians is to be among the first in the crypto world to publicly embrace financial transparency and integrity in our procedures.  

What do think is the tax problem? If you sell BTC, you are taxed. But you give to a charity, so that is a tax benefit. I don't see a tax problem... maybe accounting and paperwork problem mostly.

DASH is centralized to some degree. You need some centralization because the wisdom of the crowd is not ideal. We need a steward who will keep the values of Jesus Christ and align BiblePay correctly to those values.


This is good reason to have a non-profit. IMO, run BiblePay like a business. There are decentralized aspects which is good use case (like charity proposals), but other aspects need protection and centralized is a good idea.

The other issue I see beyond taxes is this.

If I pay the premiums using a reward based credit card, I would be personally profiting from the transaction.  Given that if (and this is not a price prediction) we hit a valuation of 3 cents, the Orphan Fund would be bringing in about $200,000 a month, this could end up being a very significant amount.  To avoid appearances of, or possibilities of, wrong doing, having the non-profit Foundation handle the transaction from start to finish would be best.

I'm confused, isn't this already the sentiment and situation? Going from one person owning 82 masternodes to vote on proposals out of 240 active MNs, means there is a ~33% voting power.

At least with Foundation 1/6 is 16.66% power or 1/5 is 20% power. Foundation voting power is certainly better for the community than one person having 33% voting power.

Reposting here since Rob deleted my post.

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Quote
Quote from: bible_pay on Today at 09:08:45 PM
Quote from: tmike on Today at 07:56:17 PM
Hey everyone!

Please vote on the proposal and le me know what you think.

https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php? (https://forum.biblepay.org/)

And Rob, please don't take this personally, I think a spokesperson would be good for us.


And I think you should take your Hate group, along with yourself to a new community.

Since you apparently don't like BiblePay - and are not forgiving, and are accusing, it's not Christian behavior.

I'll take care of being spokeperson for now.

And we don't need a project management system with huge amounts of overhead - I'll take care of project management.




We need silence to work. I'm disgusted

Reply to this Personal Message here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;f=inbox;pmsg=9036710;quote;u=0

the pot calling the kettle black. This is business as usual. "In Rob We Trust".  ::) ::) ::)

Matthew 7:3-5 English Standard Version (ESV)
3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Have you been to our website? It's a good place to start ...

www.biblepay.org (http://www.biblepay.org)

There's plenty of info and direction. If you need more help, just let us know.

For example, if you paid $28,000 with an American Express, that'd give you $280 if you get 1% cash back. That'd likely be used to "tip" and sponsor a few more children, but its just better to have a non-profit Foundation to avoid any questions.

I understand. Early days of any coin... you have early adopter advantage. You don't need to invest as much if a coin is 1 satoshi, right? Masternodes paid out more in Feb 2018 than today, so again early adopter advantage. But with that risk, comes greater rewards. I don't begrudge his earnings for putting his time, energy, and money into the coin.

A reasonable leader can discuss the merits of an idea and not relegate themselves to deleting posts and censoring discussion. We're all adults here -- we can accept strong opinions from each other. When discussion is stifled though, the environment is unwelcoming. If Jesus can eat with sinners, you should be able to entertain all kinds of discussion. If the lead dev treats investors who have "skin in the game" like this, what kind of impression does it give to newcomers to BiblePay?

We're all trying to help poor children as part of what Jesus calls us to do... it just feels like there's unnecessary drama along the way that could be alleviated with a caring ear.

Mark 2:16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Rob deleted my post (below) in the other forum, so I'm posting it here for the record.

Seems like I’m really missing out on some important stuffs, cause I don’t really know much on what this BiblePay (BBP) is all about, though I just made a research on it and from what I found it’s a charity organization and people come their to donate Bitcoin for helping the sick people or what? I don’t really know how this works, but I saw where they said something about mining of BiblePay, I don’t really understand, hope someone explains this to me.

Im sure ppl here will answer you but in meantime all answers you can find on www.biblepay.org directly as well.

Im glad that we have this thread. Ppl can see things in the right light.

casper77 biblepay is noob.......when we started this project,we had to mine pow.....stop listen him ...

run.
1.starts mining solo or purepool for automatic podcupdates, STOP USING POOL.BIBLEPAY=it looks like my didactic M or zx spectrum 48k graphic skin from 1989,horrible .... his pool would win best amateurs skin in da world ;D ;D ;D  POW
2.starts boinc on machines and add email+pass of rosetta or wcg PODC

TOGO and ROB=BIBLEPAY is profesional nebulizers,still changing things,earns on shit proposals,they create the conditions best for them


last months is orphans our the ball on the leg ... all prices of BBP was dump by sponsoring this orphans

im sorry for new users, they must have total mess from all= pow,podc,rosetta,wcg all

ANSWER from NANO LEDGE S HW WALLET about BBP

There are a lot of altcoins and as Ledger has limited resources it cannot integrate them all. The conditions to integrate an altcoin are one of the following: - massive general support and high market cap (ex: Ethereum) - development sponsored by the coin's community (ex: Litecoin) - direct developer integration using Ledger's SDK

For information, the "altcoin package" costs 78,000 EUR and includes: - development of altcoin's Nano S / Blue app - altcoin support added to the Ledger Wallet Chrome app - altcoin explorer API development for the backend - 1,000 Ledger Nano S unit with altcoin's logo laser engraving

We can also do only the firmware/software part without the 1,000 Nano S for 20,000 EUR.

This price is valid only for blockchains inheriting from already supported coins (Bitcoin, Peercoin, Ethereum...) If your blockchain is 100% original, then pricing can be much higher.

In any case it's best to join our Slack http://slack.ledger.co to discuss integration with our engineers.

Now that we've spent a few days discussing the masternode-vote-limit issue, I suggest we propose a very simple solution for Rob to consider:


"We believe that Sanctuary owners should agree to cast no more than five (5) votes on any proposal regardless of how many Sanctuaries they own or control. The only exception is when a proposal violates a voter's conscience, in which case the voter will post the reason in a public forum prior to placing the vote."

EDIT: Let me know of any scenarios where a 5-vote limit might have a negative impact on the current MN governance process.

EDIT: We should also consider an exception in situations where a whale ignores our 5-vote limit. In that case Rob could use as much of his voting power as needed to offset any abuse.

I'm not sure what you mean by "forgive each other". I don't recall receiving a personal apology from you. Maybe you "forgive each other" without apologizing to the other person?

If I say something is my understanding and it is incorrect, you're welcome to correct with kindness. I was trying to defend why you keep going off the roadmap with random features.

Re: Wiki. You gave me edit rights, then took it away as soon after found disagreement with what I said, I wonder why? (http://"https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5030298.msg45805700#msg45805700)

https://i.imgur.com/MA9aO0c.jpg

Wow Thomas,  didn't realize you had posts deleted too...

People in Sin usually don't want it brought up, or to face it unfortunately.

I don't take it personally. We're all tempted to react negatively when someone questions our behavior. In these situations Agape/love is the only way to create peace and unity. This sets us apart from the world and insures our ultimate success.

Jesus completely understood this. He said “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

When will pool.biblepay.org become a normal website?? It is something terrible and user total unfriendly

copying reply here for those that care.


I've started to wonder if you're interepreting things as mean-spirited...  I believe some of this may be a language barrier. 

You cannot expect a non-native speaker to have the communication ability of a native speaker.

Just the same,  you cannot and should not judge a non-believer by Believer's standards.

Can you try to look past the tone, and look for the heart of the message?

I agree the pool site is "functional" but I don't find it appealing, I think it could do with a makeover.  I get this is not a priority right now, with the new source uploaded to github maybe someone from the community could take it up?

It is hard to find someone that can code well and also design well. They are two distinct skills and finding a crypto programmer, let alone a good UI designer is extremely difficult. Rob is a great coder, you can see he is stuck in the 90s (probably when he first started learning web technology), but the web site works.

Can you do better?

Yes I can. But Im not paid for that as somebody is.

Im just wondering that they want to expand. With next mandatory they should be open to all other team members but they still dont have basic things as webpages made correctly. When some new member will come to that webpage he will spend there maybe few seconds and then close it. Yes its functional. But even if you are superpatient and you dont try to refresh the page or try to use back button or there are other faults too after the web simply crash.

Other thing is that explorers are down more than week. This is the basic how can I buy some crypto when even explorers are not working?

Biblepay-central again "out of the picture". Data there are not correct. Try to find some data on leaderboard section there. For example next payment. Everything is zero.

This coin will never raise when basic things will not work correctly.

I received this PM .... here is my reply, posting here as well.

This is the heart of the issue..  Demanding respect but unwilling to give it without specific guidelines.

I will be praying as the team limit is rescinded,  that IF we get an inflow of people they are not chased away by this attitude.

I stand up, for those who don't/won't.   We are supposed to be a light in the darkness, not spreading darkness under the guise of light.

Again, if anyone that stumbles on this has felt attacked by ANY "Christians" I apologize,  that is not how we are supposed to behave.  God loves you and wants a relationship with you.  If you have questions, feel free to PM me!

Explorer is my fault. I asked Togo to make 10k txs per addresses to see old transactions, but Iquudus explorer doesn't work so well with large transactions.

People who "demand" respect don't fully understand how respect works. The only way to get respect is to earn it. This requires we admit when we're wrong and change our behavior, our habits. Even though it takes time, people see this and respect the person for doing it.

Accusing and calling people names is a tough habit to break. A habituated person usually tries to push away people that care enough to help. Brothers & sisters in Christ understand the power of Agape/patience, so we will continue to persist despite rejection.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/five-marks-of-a-servant-leader

1. A servant leader seeks the glory of his Master.
2. A servant leader sacrificially seeks the highest joy of those he serves.
3. A servant leader will forgo his rights rather than obscure the gospel.
4. A servant leader is not preoccupied with personal visibility and recognition.
5. A servant leader anticipates and graciously accepts the time for his decrease.

just in case...


Thank you for the apology I will happily forgive you..  As I said in a PM back in April, you are the face of this project.  Your attitude/actions/words bear more weight than anything else, and as a public figure unfortunately you need to be better than "everyone else".  

I was not won over by Christianity by people yelling and calling me a sinner (ala Westboro Baptist Church style),  I was won over by loving, and compassionate Christians that made me feel like family.   I have not seen that here much...


In some of our early PM's I thought we hashed several things out.. I don't begrudge you for any of that.   and I agree about grudges, they are poison and something Satan uses because it's an easy target.

What I struggle with is the activities that have still been going on,   taking any comment as a personal attack and responding in kind,  name calling or publicly attacking me while deleting any kind of response or rebuttal.  

If you are free to run a smear campaign on people, then they should have the right to defend themselves..  I would prefer to see neither personally.

cross-posting for obvious reasons.


As for respecting your judgement,  well.. after this PM exchange, and the number of people driven away from this project/community through your attitude and actions...  It makes it difficult

Here's an interesting service called "KYD Team Review" that verifies the lead developer for a crytpo project is who he says he is.

"KYD has a verification process that includes a state issued ID and selfie. We only verify the main developer or project lead at this time. KYD will be expanding verification levels in the coming updates, but at this time this is solely a beta product and should be used as a reference only."

https://review.kydcoin.io/ (https://review.kydcoin.io/)

Please explain why me having a masternode would affect your opinion?

Currently no I don't have one(aside from a partial from experimenting with mintnodes).  I could but I'm still doing PODC so I cannot do both,  How many do you have?

I've been vocal, and have more than what you think that have spoken to me.   Many are afraid to speak up because of how you respond.


I would love to see some growth stats from that 2500 users.   When was their last activity, how many new users / departed users a month etc.

And thank you for being honest,  this is "Rob's" coin until you decide otherwise.   With the team vote that's all I was asking for.  If we really don't get a say, then make the changes I agree that is your right.

I do want to see this coin grow, which is why I have challenged your approach to dealing with people from what I've seen during my time here this is the largest barrier preventing growth.   People don't want to speak up if they are going to get beat down

Interesting, but I don't see that going anywhere heh

I copied the entire PM, including the history.. How you look is on you.   Now lets both stop this and move on.

Edit: as for the namecalling, please stop.

No one asked you to front BBP so why are you doing this? No one else from the other charities do this... (https://www.biblepay.org/charities/) Why can't you receive the BBP to a clean wallet and use that wallet exclusively to sell BBP for Compassion? I know you're honest, but it looks so shady when you take the payout (which goes to Orphan Foundation) and then move the BBP to create masternodes with it. From the optics point of view, this is extremely dirty and suspicious.

As you all know there have been some "Interesting" prayers as of late.

What I've been seeing is they are normally replaced by Rob with the "not evolved from monkeys" prayer.  Until last night.

The surprising thing to me is this prayer:

was replaced with

This is concerning to me...   Does anyone see anything wrong with this prayer, or why it would have been replaced?

With the new fork and "prayer signing" being a toggle Rob controls does this mean any legit prayers from those Rob disagrees with will be  removed?

So do we want to propose a MN-vote-limit to Rob, or is it a waste of time?

From his public comments it sounds like a waste of time, but you can try.  If it was me I know exactly what would happen.. heh

It wouldn't hurt to ask and see what the response is. Do we lose anything by proposing?

Regardless of whether Rob wants to participate or not, we can design an innovative whale-proof MN voting system that gives everyone equal voting power.

Lets think outside of the DASH box. I suggest a registration process where each staked MN investor is verified and added to a voter registration list. Each voter is assigned an ID via the same process used by legitimate crypto exchanges. Every registered voter gets one vote regardless of how many MNs they own. The majority vote wins. Anyone who wants to remain anonymous simply doesn't register to vote.

This type of democratic voting system would appeal to forward looking Christians interested in investing in a charitable coin where Christ is the only King.

Interesting idea,  how do you validate someone only has 1 identity?

And where would this service live,  on the blockchain?

We could use the CoinBase.com (http://CoinBase.com) model to verify. They require an email address, a phone number for Logins (2-step verification via text message) and either a Passport, Driver's License or State/Country etc issued Photo ID.

Either incorporate it into the chain somehow, or use a secure website like CoinBase.com  (http://CoinBase.com)does.

There's likely a lot of services that offer individuals to validate KYC and can be trusted.

https://www.civic.com/solutions/kyc-services/

#1 Rob is highly against revealing his personal details. Explains why pseudonyms are being used instead of actual name. I highly doubt he will participate.

#2 Not perfect, but if you tie masternode voting so that you need an active CPID, that may be lower hanging fruit. We already use CPID to somewhat tie to a specific wallet address. So, your CPID is tied to your masternode somehow. Not sure the impact with third-party services... we already have more requirements to run a masternode, so having another requirement may be unappealing? Compared to KYC and tying that to masternode voting, I don't really envision that happening. At least with CPID, you have a little bit more distributed anonymity.

I don't expect Rob to participate, or for that matter ever give up control of his coin. I wish him the best, hopefully someday our investments in BBP will pay off.

In the meantime we can brainstorm improvements that will appeal to people who want more than Rob offers. Better transparency, better governance, better function, ease of use, leadership, unity, trust and price stability.  

Personally I think the creepy type of anonymity that is common in the crypto world is a liability. FaceBook would never have reached their level of success with that model. Even DASH continues to move away from their XCoin / DarkCoin history.

A reasonable amount of anonymity is desirable, certainly in virtual environments like bitcointalk, discord, slack. But the larger Christian community/church will never feel comfortable hanging out in places where an anonymous stranger can profanely interrupt the conversation/mood at any time.

FB uses an open account registration model, yet requires a private invitation to join someone's community. So does LinkedIn. Every bank requires ID verification, yet they all provide a reasonable amount of anonymity. Credit card companies do the same thing, as do legitimate crypto exchanges.

A similar new coin based on Christian principles and innovation can offer reasonable privacy, plus the transparency needed to conduct business in a trustworthy way that the outside world will respect.

There's no reason to rush ahead with a new project, or even propose changes for Rob to reject. BBP provides an opportunity for us to learn how to do it better and gives us an open-source platform that can be customized when needed.

Zthomas, like what you said.

Hey everyone,

Rob is emailing me in private calling me names and accusing me of things without evidence,
I asked for evidence and he just called me names again...

Ive logged out of my biblepay.org email account, I assume it will be deleted soon anyways

Rob asked me for the social media credentials,
but I will not be surrendering any credentials,
I will not let more centralization happen,
Jaap and Luke already have admin access to everything

Rob, maybe your realizing you dont have as much control as you think you think you did?
Isnt that the point of decentralization? LOL

Ive been doing whatever I can to deal with the good and bad of everyone and trying to keep everyone together, but Rob for example, thinks that its wise to delete bible quotes from 60 year old men LOL and continue censoring posts, editing his own posts, calling people names and pushing people away from the project

Respect is not all or nothing Rob, I respect your technical prowess and most of your decisions,
I do not respect the way you have treated some people though,
Respect is earned, not given, and its easy to lose.

I hope you keep losing control Rob, thats the point.

Im curious to see how the community will respond

Im not going anywhere, but I will be reducing my involvement for now,

Thanks for reading,
Togo

bbp fork? Oh, that's right, the algo is closed-source.

I'm amazed to see people who I associate as being part of the backbone of the project being treated so poorly. This looks like a great idea that turned into to a house divided. Sad.

I'm hesitant to proceed with a coin that doesn't seem to have a working explorer?

Togo,

It hurts me that this is happening to you. I've known you since the early days of BBP and you've always been a loyal supporter of BBP and Rob. Your generosity and love for the orphans that we support is unquestionable.

The fact that Rob now considers you a "rat" confirms that he doesn't yet know how to sustain healthy relationships with investors that are essential to the success of this project. Effective communication it is a leadership skill that he can choose to learn, I hope he does.

Beyond that, we still need a better form of governance that isn't controlled by a single dev, a system in which whales can't sink the ship. These fatal flaws in the common masternode model have to be changed in order to attract intelligent investors.

To get this done requires us to be innovative and prayerfully follow God's guidance.

Rob deleted my message


So who if not miners may have to help a coin, otherwise make a full airdrop.

Rob. No nerves, please.
---------------------
The End bbp

I'm sick of spending a large amount of energy trying to carefully word a post in a hopeless attempt to pander you and sound nice, when you are not nice to others. So here are my raw thoughts, not adjusted to your yes-men taste.


No, it's not being declined because of Togo's votes, it's being declined because you haven't voted with your masternodes. The proposal currently stands at only 2 yes votes.

Or maybe you have voted, but against your own proposal, to make you look like a victim. So in order to prove that you didn't vote against your proposal, you should list your masternode IDs and then vote with them to prove that they're yours. Of course, you won't do that. So how do you know that all those votes are Togo's? You don't, it's not provable. So you just made an allegation against him. You attacked Togo without proof and now I did that to you, so how does it feel?

Let's say you didn't really vote against your proposal and you have all of your masternode votes available. Then it's easy: if you just vote for the proposal with all of your masternodes, it will pass. But you will not do that because you want to hide the amount of masternodes you own. End of story.

Oh, and don't tell us your votes would not cover the 10% absolute yes votes needed, we've been watching past proposals and the sudden jumps in votes, before you realized you need to vote slowly. And don't tell us you didn't increase your masternode count during the low price period now, because you did. I know that you personally have played a big part in keeping the market afloat.

Also, what is really concerning and very centralized of you is that you have the power to simply delete/hide a proposal on a whim if you feel like it, to reset the votes and change the outcome. This is exactly what you did with the Widows proposal now and what you have been doing multiple times before. Proof:

---

1st widows proposal (the removed one):


payment_amount: 481540
CreationTime: 1539455510 (October 13, 2018 6:31:50 PM)


68 positive votes, 72 negative votes, 7 abstains

---

2nd widows proposal:


payment_amount: 381540 (?)
CreationTime: 1540215079 (October 22, 2018 1:31:19 PM)


5 negative votes, 4 abstains (0 votes a few hours ago)

---

This means that you removed the votes (reset the proposal) in a centralized manner. You hid the original proposal from your centralized website, in order to deceive and mislead people. But the hidden proposal is actually still visible from the wallet, maybe you forgot that. I'm sure the wallet will be "improved" to also hide the proposals you decide should be reset/removed.

Good responses, sunk818. His first sentence is baffling to me, I'm shocked, he must have wrote the truth accidentally, lol. Anyway, here's my soon-to-be-deleted post:

-----


Umm, WHAT? :D I honestly didn't expect you would admit so easily that I was right, haha. Cool stuff. Thanks, it's good to be honest. Now an apology to the community would be in order.

Still, that kind of action is deeply concerning for a decentralized project and we hope you will not do it again.

By the way, about your private message to me, mister PM-lord who always sends ugly PMs to people when he's upset, instead of confronting them publicly:

There is absolutely no reason for me to talk to you privately. I'm not interested in your personal life, so anything project-related can and must be talked about in public. And then when you attack someone, it's better for the public to see your real face.

You explicitly called me a coward in the PM, yet ironically you only want to hide in PMs with your dirty talk. In fact you even say in the PM:


Lol. Same bravery as with post deletions.

Nothing should happen behind closed doors in a cryptocurrency project, especially not in a charity project like this.

We're making progress. Together we stand in Christ.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/9q95lm/rob_and_togo_situation/

Deleted Comments: https://www.removeddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/9q95lm/rob_and_togo_situation/

Thanks for posting this, I was not aware of the recent comments.

This is an outright lie. Rob has deleted 2 of my posts from this thread, which expose his lies and deceiving behavior with proposal deletions. Then he covers up the deceits by deleting the posts. Then he covers up the post deletions by further lying that he didn't delete any posts. :-\ Rob, you would be an excellent politician, lol, but here, everything dirty you do cannot be hidden, even with all the deletions you want. You just keep digging a deeper hole for yourself.

A good and honest man wouldn't have to delete any questions or criticisms. A good and honest man has nothing to hide.

Time of deletion of the 1st post: Oct 23 2018, 02:36:31
Time of deletion of the 2nd post: Oct 23 2018, 14:43:22

BCT forum mods can confirm this is the truth.

Also I posted the same posts at the same time in this thread ▼ (yes, this post too), so they can stay there for posterity. One of the posts even received merit. :)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5030298.msg47169688#msg47169688

Click "Watch" in that thread to be notified about uncensored BiblePay news and info.

That will become the main thread soon, unless Rob decides to radically change.

I'm sorry to everyone in the community that we have to put up with this misery. It's temporary and we will come out of it stronger.

Now I understand why Rob was kicked out of GridCoin. If there is no radical change in his behavior, I'm afraid we will have no choice but to also continue without him.

---

Just to be clear, I thought it was stated in the reddit forum by current gridcoin lead that Rob left on good terms? I just don't want to mix up current tensions with past history if it isn't correct.

Rob gave up the private key gridcoin foundation. I wonder what he Really thinks versus what is stated in public. It's not good business to speak your mind sometimes.

Exactly. If I were the GridCoin lead dev, I would never say in public something like "Yeah, he was like this and this and we kicked him out". GRC lead dev actually wrote a diplomatic/euphemistic/evasive/unclear sentence which may as well hide whatever you like - quote from Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/8i6vij/biblepay_vs_gridcoin/dypte7i):


Now think for a moment about this sentence. Do you really think it's possible that someone would dedicate months or years of work toward a project with love, and then after a community votes for a different path, he's like "alright guys, see ya!", just like that, without batting an eye? Of course there had to be some drama and emotions, it would be impossible otherwise, especially knowing Rob.

Also, that same quote from Reddit is totally unrelated to the previous comment (https://www.removeddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/8i6vij/biblepay_vs_gridcoin/) which said the blockchain stopped after a code commit by Rob, which was obviously referring to some time before July 2017 (before BiblePay was born), yet Den Ravonska says:


What the what?! It's like the previous comment asked if it was Rob's fault for the "forkapocalypse" of 2018, which doesn't make any sense. Why would something which happened in GRC in 2018 have anything to do with Rob which was working on BBP at the time? Why would he even mention something so unrelated? Or was it unrelated? In any case, his message is highly confusing and doesn't say anything concrete, except mentioning some random unrelated event.

Also, the parent comment said:

And Den's message says:

But the same Den's message also says:

Lol. So he is outright lying in the post, saying it's incorrect that the chain broke and then saying that it did broke.

So that was an absolute trash of a message from that guy.

---

By the way, I see there's another deleted message in that Reddit thread which I didn't see before, so here it is for posterity:


Now I'm thinking - isn't it strange that after all this time Rob still hasn't disclosed his previous work, or his identity? One thing he probably doesn't realize is that people would treat him much better if he had a face! It's easy for people to be insensitive when they are talking to a faceless forum user, but if he showed his face, he would have much more respect automatically. It's basic psychology.

History gives insight into someone's prior behavior and helps us understand their present behavior. It looks like the former lead dev of a project decided to create a new one that gave him enough control to insure he would never lose it.

The game is about power. The challenge for the dev is the same challenge for all Christians. Do we humble ourselves to the leadership of our true King, or do we cling to our own power?

As for transparency, the CEO of every single public company is required to give up their anonymity and to face ongoing scrutiny. It's only a matter of time until mainstream participation and financial regulation will require the same openness and accountability for CEO-devs in the murky financial world of crypto.

Fair point,  some changes are coming that may help settle things for a bit...   stick around guys it's going to be an interesting ride.

I am a core dev on Gridcoin, and I can categorically say that the lead Gridcoin dev's post is absolutely right. Rob departed on amicable terms and remains on friendly terms. His vision for Gridcoin was simply different than the community's. Rob wanted to take Gridcoin in the direction of DASH masternodes, whereas the rest of the community wanted to keep Gridcoin based on Bitcoin's core code, bringing it up to date with the current bitcoin core, and implementing new features in accordance with the Gridcoin 4.0 roadmap. We are executing on this roadmap.

Guys take a look a the recent update for the community.. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg47302933#msg47302933

Rob has opened his hands quite a bit with this, and I would appreciate your support in keeping the community going..

For the time being we can leave this thread open,   I would ask that if you have a post deleted and you do not see a public comment on why from tmike or myself to let one/both of us know.

I will ask one thing,   lets keep Gridcoin speculations off the main thread,  until/unless Rob says there is a link publicly.

This could be a turning point for the community if everyone allows it to be.

I wish the best for you and Tmike in your new roles, I hope and trust this change works out for the good of the community.

I'm posting your main forum post below for reader convenience.

Thanks!

I want to clarify, we're not looking to become dictators,   but to better relate with the community... If you see something other than this feel free to PM us :)

I don't see an issue with this. The code is open source so you can freely copy it. There's no attribution to GridCoin in the code which is wrong...  Even if the code was copied verbatim, you still need to adapt, modify, and test for BiblePay. I doubt it is just copy & paste.

Thanks for the info. So Rob/biblepay is the same Rob referenced in Wikipedia's Gridcoin article?

"Gridcoin was officially launched October 16, 2013 by its pseudonym developer Rob Halförd."

Rob has not confirmed,  and unfortunately despite many assumptions I don't know we can say 100%.

I don't want to understate the importance of these.. 

Having a second dev with access to github is a huge step towards decentralization.

and now "forum.biblepay.org" is no longer run by Rob.
We are looking to build a better community there, and will be having some more in-depth discussions on that forum than we can really do here, please join us!

I created a 3rd ANN thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5067231.0

Again a self-moderated thread? Even though your intentions are now good, nobody can know what could happen in the future, who will disagree with whom, who will be on which side etc.

The only way a thread is valid if it's not a self-moderated one. That way it doesn't matter who started it because they cannot censor the posts. The only posts which do need to be deleted are straight-up profanity, hard insults etc. And for that we already have the moderators of this forum, so there is not a single reason to have a self-moderated thread, unless the OP is scared of somebody sharing thoughts which don't align with their views.

The original ANN thread was Unmoderated, but sadly it had to be locked because of the spammers/trolls

There are Bitcointalk forum admins, but they have limited time/interest
and they have their own opinions/biases (their own rules basically say they can do what they want haha)

The Unmoderated thread got kind of crazy, and I believe most of it was not against the forum rules

I think there is a need for a Moderated thread, but who should be the Moderator? I dont know,
it would be great if it could be a community system vs a dictatorship

I offer an alternative to Robs thread since there currently is no alternative,
I also offer an alternative design

I doubt my thread will get used, Im not pushing for it, just opening it as an option

Rob has shown to be slow to update the ANN,
and for months he purposefully left out critical keywords from the title

Rob is a busy man, he has other priorities and work he is doing,
I believe we need more people to step up and do things

But anyways, I would support trying out a non-moderated thread again :)

If we stay self moderated though, I believe we need to discuss and make clear our forum rules

Don't get me wrong, I support you being the OP, you don't miss a single message, follow everything actively and take care of a lot of things, so of all people in the BiblePay project, I would pick you to be the thread OP. I'm just concerned for the future, because this is exactly how the previous self-moderated thread started, like a salvation or a fix of the chaos erupted, but then that thread turned into an even bigger chaos, lol. But maybe it's just because of the person who is OP and others who participate (and their relationship), no thread reset can stop humans from being humans...


I agree with this. To me it's unbelievable how can he code for hours and days, but can't update just the OP title, for months. And updating the title is worth more than all those days of coding work, when comparing the impact vs time consumed. Updating the OP contents is much more complicated and time consuming, I know I would procrastinate on that, but just the title...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5067231.msg47868086#msg47868086

Lol. ;D

Um, what are you talking about, the proof is right there - you've hidden the previous proposal from your website and made a new one, misleading users that there are not so many negative votes on that proposals, and rigging the voting system in your favor, so that your proposal could pass. This is the 100% undeniable truth, with proof on the blockchain which will never go away, no matter how hard you want it.

Also, read this:

Why Making People Apologize For Their Mistakes Is A Bad Idea
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markmurphy/2017/07/22/why-making-people-apologize-for-their-mistakes-is-a-bad-idea/

It will be a good start on your way to becoming more mature.

No, the messages violate your brain, not any guidelines.

And how ironic that you call me afraid, yet you are clearly afraid because you always want to hide in private conversations! :D Why not be a man and speak in front of everyone? Instead, you manipulate everyone individually in private. Also, you are even more rude in private, so I can't see any upside to that.

NOPE, NOT SAME. In Dash the old proposal would stay visible!


A losing proposal is a losing proposal? Well, that's exactly what I'm advocating, but that's exactly what's NOT the case with the incident you made. You made a losing proposal into a not-losing-proposal-anymore. You practically removed all the negative votes. And then those who voted negative didn't see the new proposal or they simply thought "well I voted already for that proposal" and of course they will not vote again.


Um, you started this when you attacked me because I praised Togo's redesigned OP, lol.

Why don't you then work through every issue here? What is the difference? What do you need to hide?

And the truth doesn't choose sides, it is the truth. You can't bend truth.

Also, I see you didn't take my advice and read this:
Why Making People Apologize For Their Mistakes Is A Bad Idea
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markmurphy/2017/07/22/why-making-people-apologize-for-their-mistakes-is-a-bad-idea/

inblue:

On the proposal front I thought the original was still visible in the wallet?

Regardless, a masternode monitor/proposal history/vote tracker is in the works for my toolbox..  This will help bring transparency

Even though things have gotten personal with the sleights and insults, one thing appears to me. That we are a community, and some of what has been brought up really needs to come to light, for the community about how things are being handled. They affect us all. Let's have a non-censored discussion.

It's actually in the best interest of everyone. Let everyone hear. If you all want to argue about whether so-and-so is acting Christian enough, then PMs are the way to go. But for community-wide issues, like how proposals work behind the scenes and potential conflicts of interest.  How can we say that only affects one person who needs to work it out in private? I don't want to make any comparisons to political parties who employ that tactic. Let's just say it tends to end badly for all. I'm really hoping that doesn't happen here.

Do I, as the owner of a tiny amount of biblepay, have the right to understand the proposal process?
Is it true anyone can just "reboot" their proposal until it passes (those with the most votes can take full advantage of this?
Can proposals really be hidden, and who has the decision on that?
How many nodes does the lead dev have?

These are examples of questions that arise because information only comes out piecemeal, maybe leaked from private conversations and messages. I don't want to see this sad trend continue, so let's get things out in the light, maybe then it's easier to trust again?   The problem with "let's just start over", is the questions that spawned the controversy are left unadressed. so the release of tension is only temporary. Then the cycle starts again, maybe with something new added to the fire. We can fix this, but we have to make some new patterns.

Edit: spelling.

I'm getting a larger understanding of things that have and can go on.  I agree with you that these are valid concerns, and do need to get addressed.

What I'm working on is understanding.   Until we can get to a starting place of respectful communication,  nothing will get answered.

What is clear to me is this:  (from your list)
1.  Rob has several MN's (I read earlier in this thread for my speculation,  he denies the number and has not, and seems like will not answer this).
2.  The Block Chain allows Proposals to be re-submitted..  For Charting/statistics this is managed through the same proposal name, and ideally is used to prevent budget over-runs (something will not be paid if the budget overflows).  There is a legitimate purpose to this.  Can this be used maliciously yes? is it a level playing field (ie
3.  The proposals are never hidden on the blockchain (rpc command "gobject list" will provide the full account).   New ones with the same name hide the old one on the forum (and biblepay-central) only, this is for "reporting" purposes.

I don't mind having a more open discussion, I agree these are questions the "public" seems to want to know.

I will ask for some patience, and give me some time to find the details, and work in the background to work towards better transparency.

If you want answers, and progress, it will take effort. On all our parts.


I also know,  from my discussions Rob has a grand vision for this project..   His goal is not to see it fail.  (think about if you spent a year of your life working on something like this...) 

My history here should be clear,  I have no interest in being a "yes-man"...   I will speak my mind,  but if it is to be received how I speak it is just as important as what I say :)   This has been a learning journey for me as well.


By clean slate I was referring to not holding grudges, not just complaining, not saying  "well we said this back then"....   Act as if we were never here before and lets discuss issues as adults. (if you can't, at least pretend you are haha).

I also would rather have these more in-depth discussions on the official forums...  These threads  are a wealth of knowledge but it gets buried pages back and most won't go digging for the gold.  (I know I personally cant do it at this point).


Hope all this makes sense,   and we can start working together!

The sooner you can help us create a DASH Ninja for masternode analytics... the better.

Audits like duplicate MN proposal titles, etc... will make it easier to bring things to light.

I also believe a decentralized discussion of proposals would be ideal. Something that has revision history, so any edits are tracked. Wish there was a decentralized git type of product where anyone can participate with an alias. Gotta research if there are any OpenAlias services that let you do decentralized discussions. This is ideal for proposal discussion, I think.

For the forum.biblepay.org I turned off user edit/deletes for the main proposal forum.  This is a start

as for the toolset, working on it..

Which website? ...  This is not an ANN thread

Check his post history. Seems to be a habit for ths person.



And thanks for you reply to my post above. It's a little disappointing the issue of MN control by the lead dev is going to just hang there without an answer. Maybe my expectations are out of line, but some other projects I'm involved with have 100% transparency (and those are secular projects). It's strange to have these pockets of hidden information, but it is what it is.

I learned a new term the other day -- monarch coin. Do you think it applies.

I completely see that Rob is heavily invested in this project, and....surprise... I want it to succeed too, and am trying to point out things that could really derail it. Maybe my focus is wrong.

Why should this discussion happen on the main thread? The ANN thread is where we get reports from the dev and team, as well as some light troubleshooting. It seems appropriate to have a separate thread like this, where we can look into the mirror a bit. It seems cleaner to me to have some separation.

Which brings me to a point about separation. It's really necessary, especially in business. We have to see ourselves as investors, project members, charity givers, Christians, etc. etc. Of course we're all these things, but it's good to have boundaries. When we get overly identified with one aspect, the others suffer.

One more thought. Years ago, I learned a Chinese expression "running a country is like frying a fish". For years I could not figure out the meaning. It wasn't until I actually fried a fish that the meaning became clear. If you fry a fish, you can only turn it once or twice before the fish dis-integrates.

I feel our fishes are, technically, suffering from over-turning. Currently I am completely unable to promote the coin, because I have no idea what the direction is--orphans, widows, file hosting, etc.  In the short while I've been here, the future of the project seems to be spinning more and more into complexity. We use terms like POBH or whatever the Orphan Proof is called. Do we realize those terms mean not a lot outside of our little group? It creates a barrier of entry, where new members are forced to learn a new vocabulary that doesn't apply anywhere outside of the project. I almost looked past this one because it involved a lot more learning on my part to figure out all the terminology, so it took more of an "investment" to even understand BBP.

Has anyone considered making a glossary type document that defines what all these terms are? It would be easier on new folks like me to be able to enter the world of BBP knowing all the definitions, instead of having to hang out on the main thread for a while to pick up the pieces intuitively. Thanks for reading.

What is the definition of a "monarch coin"?

I would agree that the chinese "cooking a fish" metaphor is appropriate for our situation history.

POOM will be added because PODC was too difficult to setup to BOINC a lot of RAC after POW was secured by POS.

 

.

I understand your frustration, unfortunately when it comes to "personal" information nobody can force you to reveal it...   A choice must be made to support the project without this understanding, or move on?



Why not have it in the main thread?   Or ... better yet on forum.biblepay.org, this would add content and some real discussions there that could help bring people into a discussion.

Unless this type of topic is in a dedicated place,  (thread with a single purpose) any of this information will ultimately be buried and lost, and questions will come back to be answered again.


I would agree with this point as well..  We are a complex coin, some steps have been taken to help reduce the complexity, but I agree every new feature adds to the complexity.

A glossary would be good, but we could also work to call things what they are,  PoBH = POW .. This is a good point why make things sound more complex than they are?

Thanks for your response.

Agree with most of what you wrote. Personal information is just that, true. And there is more than one coin out there that has pseudonyms and anonymity. So it's nothing uncommon. I can't imagine going around to churches and giving everyone a pseudonym. Then again, my real name isn't secoccular. ;p


I still think the discussion is better somewhere here on bct, just for more visibility. But I understand what you're saying, and I don't have much more to add to this thread.

I'm looking at/ involved with over a dozen projects right now. and wouldn't want to join a separate outside forum for each of them. Discord is a little easier because it's all in one place. But I'll go check out the BBP forum again and see the activity levels. Maybe it is better to keep the moaning over there. I don't know.

I'm happy to see the community coming together more. Having forum managers creates an important buffer, and makes it easier on Rob and us plebes. In my experience of *cough* years in IT, the most brilliant programmers weren't really hard-wired for some kinds of communication. The ones that did the best had some folks in from of them, so they could focus on the coding.

In total agreement with your comments about complexity. Using more common terms would be a huge help for newcomers. PoW is just PoW, as you say.

As to the monarch coin (asked above), like all slang terms, it arose spontaneously, without a set definition from the "Satoshi Fan Club". But I would say it's a coin where there's basically one person at the head, who codes, makes changes to the structure (like the widow thing), owns a large number of nodes, and really has final decision. Whether that applies to BBP, I don't know.

Again, I'm really happy with the new moderation on the ANN thread. It feels like a positive direction.

Fair enough,  I get that people are busy and like a central place to look for things. 

Discord is available but suffers the same "buried in history" issue,  on the flipside it allows for more real-time discussion.  I am on there as "freddymac" I suppose I should change the name to match .. just have not felt like doing it

I'd love to get more activity on the official forums ..  If we could it would help show the activity level of the project.  (I get its "another" site to check, but from an outsider perspective it could indicate an active "core" community)


Appreciate your input, and the ongoing discussion.   I don't think your comments here need to be buried in this thread either though if you insist on using BCT.   

IMHO, you have articulated your points well, and with respect :)

I wandered over to the official forum, but the activity level seems pretty low, and I couldn't find a place for a high-level philosophical discussion there. I honestly think more people read the threads over here.

I also wanted to get your input on a couple of questions. Why isn't there more community involvement with this coin? I notice it seems like a small number of people are responsible for the vast majority of the posts, which are very technically detailed, and I'm not sure who the audience most of you are speaking to. It would take me a lot of time to figure out what everyone's talking about, so most of it just sails over my head. Maybe others feel the same way? This is by far the most demanding project to try and understand.

Shouldn't there be more diverse activity for a 500+ page thread? If so, what do you think we can do to improve that? I'm not sure how to contribute on the main ANN thread. It feels like there's no room there.

The second question is my biggest concern, which is the extremely low volume. How can we improve this? It seems like on a lot of projects I follow, people gravitate towards getting lsited on more exchanges as the solution. But does that really bring investors in, as a case of "if you build it, they will come" (which I don't think works). Of course the overall bear market doesn't help. Still, it feels like there's a gap somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it..

Sorry for continuing this thread, but it still feels relevant as a community discussion.

For the bbp forum I'm open to suggestions on new threads over there.. so far people seem reluctant to sign up (outside the core team).  If people are unwilling to start discussions because of a lack of discussions, it seems like a circular issue.. If we could "win over" to start posting it may help.


I agree with the volume concern,  adding exchanges has not seemed to help the current situation much unfortunately.  I would be reluctant to attempt another at this moment, due to the fee's associated with most exchanges (and the time required for the exhange fund to re-stock at our current valuation).  On the other side, most exchanges require a certain volume to keep listed.  Rob spoke to another opportunity for next year possibly.

Overall the bear market has been ruthless for the majority of crypto!   I don't know how much longer this is going to continue but I don't feel there is much room for us to grow until it turns around.  However, I do pray I am wrong!

I'm working on some data collection and reporting..  This should give us some more insight into the userbase and i'm hoping show us some ideas to fix things.

Actually there are around 800 pages when you count the old thread. Very interesting observation! I agree, this is something very strange for this coin... Other coins of this market cap have many many times fewer posts, and much bigger coins have a lot of diversity in the posts, from a lot of different users. So BiblePay seems almost like a cult of loyal followers, but very few of them, but they are very active. The coin getting more and more complicated only helps to further isolate the cult from potential new members. But I still believe there are a lot of lurkers who only ever read and not post, but they read often and follow the developments.


Could you elaborate on this? How is there no room in that thread? Is it because of Rob who instills fear of posting, or something else?


Well said, I actually feel that way too, I just can't understand what I'm feeling, but this phrase of yours "there's a gap somewhere" solidified my thoughts. I think so too, but I also don't know what it is. It's maybe related to what I wrote in the first paragraph above. I follow many projects too, and neither of them feels even remotely like BiblePay.

thesnat21, thanks for the response. I agree it can be a vicious circle. I don't want to post there because the environment doesn't seem aligned with what I'd post. But if I don't post, then I can't help change the environment. I'll have to meditate on this more, maybe I need to be the change I want to see. For now, this thread feels more open to these kinds of discussion without concern for censorship based on a single person's perspective. The censorship for the perception of not being "positive" about the project does bug me, especially when the person doing the censoring often goes on the attack themselves?


Well, I think the word cult is too strong, and not exactly appropriate. It just seems with a lack of diversity, things kind of become a self-feeding closed loop. This has been my observation throughout life, not limited to BBP. When I read the main thread, it's mostly reports from "worker bees", what the main core of people are working on. But I'm having trouble piecing it all together into a cohesive whole.

I don't have any problem with Rob, and have a deep feeling of wanting to help him, to help the project (I do wish he'd chill out some). It's hard when you take the mantle of responsibility for something. It can lead to all kinds of control issues. Getting a project to thrive always means letting more people get involved, which means letting go to some extent. It's difficult, especially for IT folks, and when you personally care about the outcome. This is where surrender to God becomes very helpful, like "I don't want this project to succeed, without divine approval, and I can't know what that is ahead of time." That's how I see it.

I thought about that "gap" more. What I see is, as you said, is an intense concentration of posts by the core folks, and then what feels like a moat before it gets to people like me. It kind of feels like being on the outside. You need the core for functioning, but you also need a bigger involvement to grow.  It's vital to a project's (any project's) health to bring in new people. Being on the "inside" all the time, it's too easy to forget one's "beginner mind". It will actually be impossible to retain this being very involved in the project, which is why it's vital to always have newbies, and not deride them for needing "hand-holding". It's hard to account for how damaging that is, or how many people just walk away after getting the feeling of not being honored and wanted.

I'm still new enough to have that kind of mind, and that's what I bring to each of the projects I'm involved with. If I can't succinctly explain what a project is to my parents, or someone at the supermarket without the jargon like PoBH and such, that's a sign that it's going to be hard to grow without more focus. I do writing on the side, and it's important to have an "elevator pitch", a 20 second explanation for the endeavor. I would say for BBP, it should just be the fundamental hope to bring genuine Christian values to cryptocurrency. It doesn't matter if it's orphans or widows, that's not the heart of it. It's the hope. I think that gets obscured somewhat. (see comment about use cases at bottom).

Personally, I think the Dash model doesn't help. It seems to me to be very non-democratic, and difficult to interface with the project's values as I seem them. But I realize that's already set in stone. Some other projects don't have such formal duties, and when it's time for an exchange, it's just asked that people donate crypto when interested in a new exchange. It seems more inclusive and free-flowing, and community-driven. And if people don't want to fund it, then it doesn't happen. Nobody takes ultimate responsibility. Here, it seems very formal (maybe the project's size needs that?), and like BBP is employment for some. I just can't wrap my mind around things like IT and marketing budgets. They're needed, but on a continual basis every month? It's as if BBP is an employment opportunity, which I think looks odd from the outside--the haves and have-nots. The expenses always seem tied to the same few people always spinning off new ideas that cost bbp to implement. Sure, Rob says step up if you want to be involved, but frankly it's not a very open environment at present and I question to what degree he means that. And I'm not sure the core group will allow the space for that to happen, which can really hamper long-term growth. A project this size should have at least a dozen people cranking out code, which would allow for more volunteer opportunities and lessen the "budget".

Thanks for your feedback and attention. I wouldn't put this much thought into it if I didn't see a lot of promise for this coin.

Edit: One thing I think BBP is missing is use cases for the coin. It kind of functions as a currency for the core group, but why would your average Joe or Jane Smith use the coin, other than as an investment? It kind of seems like the coin's use, outside the core group, is lost. This is a big problem for a lot of crypto, but really apparent here.

Interesting observations..   I'm curious about this "gap" and what can be done to close it... 

Site note: I appreciate you posting on the Proof of Giving proposal on the bbp forums inblue :)

I think all these discussions are important, and I appreciate the discussion and trying to track down what is going on.

I agree we have a loyal following,  but need to do more to bring new folks in.

I don't believe we try to be overly technical..  But this is the curse of IT as well I suppose haha, it tends to spill out in "normal" conversations as well.

secoccular: I replied to your post on the main thread,  I believe you bring valuable input and perspective.

Inblue: I appreciate your contribution here as well and see this is a much more beneficial discussion than previous,  please join us as well!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg48069526#msg48069526

https://i.imgur.com/bMvM7BO.png (http://discourse.biblepaycoin.org)

I offer BiblePay users a 2nd Forum Option, Discourse:
https://discourse.biblepaycoin.org/

Understanding Discourse Trust Levels
https://blog.discourse.org/2018/06/understanding-discourse-trust-levels/

FAQ/Guidelines
https://discourse.biblepaycoin.org/t/faq-guidelines/5

NOTE: Currently Ive set Trust Level "Member" the ability to post anonymously

I have also setup the ability to login using Google, Facebook, Twitter and Github,
so users do not have to create another account, they can use one they already have!

Im not sure if it this forum will get used, I dont think the timing is that great,
was just experimenting again, please let me know any feedback!

Cool stuff. You can't know ahead of time if it will get used, but just making the effort is good. I'm going to be taking a step back from this project for a bit and let some of the dust settle. It's a little too dramatic for my taste, and there are other projects to work on without so much contention.

Understandable, don't forget us though :)   

,

I'll still lurk. In retrospect, the error was mine. I took the term community-driven to mean the community decides, not the community does the legwork for the monarch.

There are some really interesting projects out there, with everyone pushing in the same direction, that are actually increasing in market value and trading volume despite the bear market. So I know it can be done, if there's clarity.

Here's hoping BBP will become one of those, with a better use case and more internal cohesion. Best of the best of luck.

To be fair,  there is a limit to available time..  So those with more people working towards a goal will have better luck finding it.

Thanks!

Installation was pretty smooth, they use a docker image, can host it on a cheap cloud server $5/month
https://github.com/discourse/discourse/blob/master/docs/INSTALL-cloud.md

Anyone could run this! :)

Would you mind sharing the names of these projects in PM? Thanks.

You have a way of distilling what this coin is about. Many people think of BBO as a charity coin, but a coin that promotes Christian values allows more flexibility. An altcoin that promotes Christian values could be a charity coin or something else. Marketing BBP as promoting Christian values could have a name change and could pivot away from being a charity coin if financially necessary.

Rob = hypocrite.

Same here. Weak dev is deleting constructive posts again. Welcome back in totalitarian forum.

The sign of a healthy community is its ability to absorb and process dissension.

There are two ways I know of to enable this. One, is for the community to embrace different viewpoints, and realize the value of perspectives from all--whether dev, investor, casual interested parties (easier said than done)

The second way is to stamp out any differing perspectives, and whittle down the numbers to only the most staunch of true believers, at the cost of diversity. This path is often a downward spiral, as the community has no way to meaningfully affect the coin's path, and the leaders are no longer listening. It can reach levels that appear totalitarian.

The key, and I have no idea how to do this, is to get the leadership a (A) little thicker-skinned (B) and the community communicating in more helpful ways. Those two seem to go hand in hand. If one fails, they both do.

I will not go down the sink just singing the praises of BBP. If BBP is so fragile that any criticism is harmful, then we have a big problem. A strong project can take the criticism in stride, even if it's crude.


Honestly, I wish the lead dev was spending more time fixing existing code, and a lot less time defending BBP against perceived attacks. It doesn't help, and just makes the whole project seem immature (feedback I've gotten before).

Nobody needs to defend BBP. If any criticism is seen as a slight against potential future investors, we've got a bigger problem.

I guess it will come down to, do we value of egos so much that the accusations and infighting (from both "sides") can't be let go of? Or do we realize as Christians, we need to just focus on the coin, and keep our feelings a little more to the side? And can everybody do it?

Don't forget, the community page is only lightly moderated (mostly against profanity and objectively damaging speech).

So by and large, your posts won't be deleted here.   Biblepay has a lot of potential and the dev is certainly responsive to public pressure when its just not an outright attack.

Discuss, debate and improve.  Accept the good the dev has done and accept his faults as well.  Look for solutions and know the dev is most responsive to highly detailed highly solutions that have been implemented already and shown to work.  So if you can code, bang around in the code (it's open) and see if you can fix anything.   Good luck!

So bigger, your posts will not be deleted here

I wonder why he wants to keep erasing posts. He said he was not delete posts, but lately he deletes many. Some are not even criticism.

Hi Guys!

It just sounds great to post knowing it will not be deleted; I had to test it :)

my wallet started crashing in Win 10 lately too. I tried to sync from begining  but, will see. strange thing.

I suggest you wait a few more hours, until the new wallet version is available.

I'm stuck at block 33620 on any wallet I started from scratch.

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PODC is gone.

What coin you guys recommend to mine with my boinc clients if any ?

My stations are old stations, they are good for boinc but not for BLE.
Do you know any other coin that can be mine with old dual core x86 64bit Linux stations ?

Are you getting OByte now by contributing to WCG?

https://hardforum.com/threads/how-to-earn-byteball-running-wcg-distributed-computing.1959820/#post-1043613449

I'm doing 0Byte. I'm not certain but they may have lowered the payouts some. Still, it's a good deal.

profodc, there are a lot of cpu coins out there. You should join the Cpu Miner's Club, there's always lots of ideas there.

Resistance.io has a boinc pool you can join. Same code it seems as grcpool or bbppool.

there's DCC that is web based. you may be able to use some cli chrome based tool to do work like

puppeteer
https://github.com/GoogleChrome/puppeteer

selenium, kantu, etc
https://a9t9.com/kantu

I thought DCC awards from the SPARC Alpha was over. Now to earn DCC you have to run their work which is outside of BOINC IIRC. Is there another that awards DCC?

Gridcoin. Also, you can look at curecoin+foldingcoin, which has a Chrome-based cruncher.

You can also look at Bittube which has a Chrome extension that let's your learn while you do Chrome DCP work. https://bit.tube/

I'm using their new chrome extension, and it works great. Earn crypto while surfing.

There's also a CPU coin called Surfcoin, which can be used on any phone or browser. It's very low impact on the system, and can run alongside anything.

Also, UPX is another nice CPU coin.

How well does bit.tube work with the search and such? Using the extension for youtube works but it is very tedious to use for earning as you have to do videos one link at a time.

And don't forget to use people's referrals. :p

You're talking about the old plug-in for youtube. We're talking about the new plugin that rewards tube for any web surfing with chrome.

Yeah...I found that today. The sure aren't making things simple by murking the waters are they? I think what I was using was from bittube.me which I still have an account for. However, that does not use the same login for the bittubeapp. So, I will give this a shot and see how it goes.

Any idea why they have bittube.me and bittubeapp.com still? Different logins. Are they the same people or competing offerings?

Can we at least try to keep the discussion on BiblePay Community?

This is the Chrome extension I'm using: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bittube-airtime-donations/cnogbbmciffpibmkphohpebghmomaemi?hl=en

We're just talking about alternatives especially if we have computers we used for PoDC (defunct Proof of Distributed Computing), but now want to seek new ways to use the computers. PoBH is certainly a possibility, but without anti-botnet features currently, its kind of a moot point. I read they have ABN which they are experimenting with now in 14.0.1 in testnet, so it might be coming. You will need coin age like you did with Proof of Giving (PoG).

I don't know, at this point, I may just stay quiet, hope for a moon, and dump BBP when it is makes financial. I'm seriously sick of Rob's BS.

You can support charity directly without complication and dealing with a paranoid crypto dev.

Thanks Sunk, that is what I'm using now. It certainly works more like it should to be appealing.

I too got tired of the hypocrisy that came from the Dev of this coin. I've seen how he treats everyone, lies and manipulates. The reason investors are leaving are because of him. Not because of the "negativity" that a few forum members bring. People don't trust a Dev that censors the truth and makes up his own version of things. They also don't like it when they are called Satanists just for having a different opinion on technology. What he doesn't understand is that every one of the people he pushed away or out of his thread are indeed investors in some way and he is the one hurting them. He hurts the support he is offered and he hurts any positive word of mouth that the project would normally have.

The chrome extension is pretty cool. I didn't even know they had miners on cryptonote w/ 2 minute block times. The ability to segregate the technology from daily usage is really amazing to me.

The HTML5 or web based parts of the wallet sound promising in that respect. Rob's not a front end design guy so hopefully he recognizes his weak points and farms out that stuff to more competent people.

I mined it for a bit. The algo, CN Heavy variant, was kind of hard on the GPUs. It was just easier to mine a lighter cryptonight coin like turtle or aeon with less impact, and just get TUBE through the chrome extension. Bittube has gone through a lot, and the ideas keep coming.

I've also been crunching on distributed.computer on a few machines. Lately, BiblePay miner on Windows is crashing on me intermittently. Linux biblepayd is solid. I get 2.5khps (Linux) vs 2.0khps (Windows 10) on my i5 3.2Ghz 4 core. So, I"ll see if I can run Chrome browser unattended on distributed.computer and see if that fares better. I don't feel Rob is into fixing hard problems like miner crashes when he's coding his new toys. I can understand the desire, but I feel its just disregard for the fundamentals. Internal miner should be flawless since its a critical process to keep the network secure.

That's the real balancing act--between stability and innovation. Rob clearly favors the latter. I don't like change-for-change's-sake because it increases an already complex set of concepts. Plus it invalidates a bunch of the documentation, so it leaves things hanging until someone can circle back and update the docs.

Check out how many sites still are advertising "Biblepay PODC" https://duckduckgo.com/?q=biblepay+podc&atb=v153-6_l&ia=web

You get it. Some of that content can still be leveraged as redirecting marketing text. No point in deleting it... but there's no clear direction from PoDC for CPU users. PoBH is the current default, but the mining reward will go away when PoG comes back. So, what do we have left? Proof of Giving (PoG) which relies on coin age with no CPU mining required. So, essentially, Rob has decided all the CPU miners are not worth holding on to. Grandma hasn't really materialized because crypto is hard to understand by itself, let alone trying to introduce all these complex concepts. I wonder what population BiblePay is trying to target. Tech savvy Christians? How many of those exist that want to use crypto for charity?

I think Rob wrote a while back, that BBP is for a tech-savvy Christian audience. I find that an odd stance, limiting the popularity right out of the gate. I wonder if Rob is really OK with that. You can't get a top 250 coin by alienating the average crypto person. We can have wide appeal, or we can have an exclusive club that requires a lot of time and research to play, as you said. But I don't think there are many "investors" who have a lot of time to mess with this.

It's been a challenge for me to discuss BBP with Christians at large, because, as you noted, they don't really understand crypto at all, much less PODC, PoG, Evolution. I think we've forgotten how terribly deep we've gone down the rabbit hole.

PODC was really nice, because it appealed to Christians and Good Samaritans alike. It's just about doing good, right? Or do we not want soiled non-believer money and involvement? Can we really afford in this market to exclude anyone? We shall see...

This would have gone really nicely with PoDC. If PoBH mining varied based on your mining stake, the hps throttles and PoDC could have kicked in to do some BOINC tasks.

https://github.com/biblepay/biblepay-evolution/commit/29c6cd8163b33e1e328ecd867af986d87719a4ef

Bitcoin LE has a time out feature where all miners take a break...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4951492.0

Again, that window could be used for other things like BOINC tasks (or mine another altcoin I guess).

Since BiblePay PoDC and PoDC unbanked are gone, are you doing anything else useful with Android smartphones?

I saw Neummanium mentioned Einstein@Home and SETI@Home, but I'm not sure if they are paying Neummanium for those projects any more...?

https://icesword.co.jp/en/computingforgood/

I used to get Neummanium automatically with 0Byte on WCG. Not sure haven't done a lot of boinc crunching lately. But I don't expect Neum to be a big winner. 

Really 0byte is the only good coin I've found that rises even in this market. The payout is much better than gridcoin too.

I'm looking at a curecoin/foldingcoin merged setup for desktop. It uses Chrome for a client, and chugs along in the background without much trouble.  Kind of Boinc Lite. I believe it has an android client, and is of course a charity coin.

There have been a lot improvements for miners on android.  I've been mining Uplexa with phones recently. It has a really nice client that can adjust number of cores and CPU time, and gets decent hash rate.  Near gone are the days of overheating phones. I suspect there are other CPU coins that work decently on android. It's just finding them.

Actually, you don't have to use the Chrome install they have. You can use the other clients. Once our Cure/folding coin accounts are set up, you just fold however you need as long as you are attached to their team. I won't switch teams, so will only receive Curecoin. I also don't give Folding@home much attention as I don't like how it has been ran over the years. They treat their donors like crap.

Neummanium appears dead. I've not received anything from them since probably November 2018. Nothing from the Devs for months in their thread here (well I haven't checked recently anyways). The only way you got rewards from SETI and Einstein is if you bought their hardware. Otherwise, you had to run WCG. I converted mine to WAVES and think it amounted to like 1 Wave token. At least that has real value. https://hardforum.com/threads/earn-neummanium-with-distributed-computing.1971444/

DCC (SPARC) is no longer rewarding for BOINC. So, you have to run their work to get rewarded.

I will have to look into Uplexa.

Are you already getting Electroneum on your phone? https://hardforum.com/threads/how-to-earn-electroneum-on-an-android-device-simulated-mining.1960821/#post-1043637926 That setup guide is a bit old but should be pretty simple still. They changed their mobile miner a bit. Instead of "simulated mining" on your phone, they now do the "simulated mining" on their servers. Basically, now you just check in once a week to "extend mining" and maybe do a selfy. Don't even need the app running the whole time. It isn't a lot but it is "free".

Sounds easy enough to add to my phone with uplexa, and a browser window mining surfcoin. 3 coins on an old phone...not bad.

I'm especially interested in "free" coins or ones that use so little resources they're basically free, so thanks for the tip on Electroneum. My goal is 6 coins mined at the same time on a phone.

Do you know of any decent coins that will mine from an android wallet?

I do not, but would be interested in one as well. I have roughly 25 phones crunching BOINC 24/7 in my home because I keep picking up "free" phones from Straight talk when I order my service plan cards each month. It is sad when it is cheaper to get a whole new phone then to replace a bloated battery....

If you come across any other Android friendly coins, please keep me in mind. :)

I may have to explore that StraightTalk angle. I tried Einstein@Home with my Android and didn't get any credit.

Maybe GRCpool for Android BOINC? I can't really see CPU mining on ARM being that successful. Even on my TinkerBoard I get at max 200 hps on 4 cores 100% on ARM Rockchip.

I don't see how anything I've said is defamation. You don't have a good reputation to tarnish. Seriously, ask anyone. Public opinion is on my side.

If you're going to insult me, at least come up with something original instead of stealing my work.

It doesn't matter whether you intended to release code with bugs in it or not, you did so harming the BiblePay community and the precious orphans you supposedly are trying to protect. You know how much harm you've done by pushing away people with the constant changes, unreliable code, and switching algorithms? And you blamed PoG_Monkey for your spaghetti code bugs, when it was clearly your cheeky coding practice:

https://github.com/biblepay/biblepay/commit/962ffe50f70c459d6a991e2f2bc32786d8624f2f#diff-7ec3c68a81efff79b6ca22ac1f1eabbaR4578

But I don't ever expect you to give me a genuine heart felt apology. You're just not capable.

and this is how MN voting works in practice: just have a look. how many MNs the BBP owner has:

https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/wallet.dws?1.htm&fbclid=IwAR3CvW4tVGToOC5VhJNoshlkcoOi5Gpog8Jj6mSG5w2BcR2Gp9OUPBr096A

thus we call this "decentralized" coin.

some enlightening video on masternodes and bugs in code, related to dash, but can be applied generally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBxbiH_Mg44

That is an experimental feature. While I think Rob likely have over 85 MNs (maybe a lot more), it is not clear how many he owns... and whether link above is accurate, its hard to say.

1 man show..... totally shitcoin

What do you think of MIP?

Rob resigns from GridCoin: https://discontinuo.us/biblepay-unofficial-wiki/news/1904/rob-resigns (full text)

BiblePay vs DogeCoin Comparison Matrix: https://discontinuo.us/biblepay-unofficial-wiki/news/1904/bbp-vs-doge (the relevant version)

If I may ask, why use DOGE for the comparison? I don't see the connection. It's not really anything like BBP (a comparison to Dash would seem more appropriate).

Also, the matrix is heavily biased towards BBP, with feature options such as "benefits charities" or "church tithing" that are obviously not going to be found elsewhere.


The comparison would come off as far more balanced if there was a few DOGE gimmies like "leverages cute meme", that BBP would fail automatically. Comparisons that are biased to create overwhelming victory for one side always strike me as unfair.

Here's the original link for comparison:
https://wiki.biblepay.org/Nutrition_Information

I think Rob mentioned DogeCoin because DogeCoin is a highly ranked coin. Some of the matrix rows is even more ridiculous. I tried to distill down to the relevant, removed vaporware, etc.

I removed the DASH specific features as well since they are not really innovations. They are just updating the BiblePay code to a more recent version (0.13).

I think the matrix I made is more realistic. If you think it should appear differently, you can edit the wiki (anyone can anonymously edit it).

Doge has the advantage of ridiculous being their brand strength.

Oh, so the items under Evolution in the chart aren't Dash-specific? ...I'm still trying to figure out how mobile wallet staking will work.

As the saying goes, context is everything. I followed that link above, thanks for that. Looking at the old and new matrixes, I think you did good work in whittling down the less relevant comparisons. Nice work on the wiki. I think it's healthy to have official and non-official sources for information.

These are specific to DASH 0.13 and as a result will be same feature in BiblePay Evo (using DASH 0.13 codebase)

51% Attack Prevention (ChainLocks)
Anti-Fork technology (POW + Dash ChainLocks)

I think the idea for mobile staking was being able to perform PoG on the mobile wallet. I don't know if it will be automatic or something you have to do manually to earn a reward.

There are many things on the matrix for Nutrition_Information that is vaporware, so if it ever becomes a production feature, I'm open to editing the wiki to include those line items in the comparison.

Vaporware really belongs on the roadmap if it is really something devs will devote time to.

I'm not optimistic about the 501(c)(3) non-profit since Rob has shown a history of wanting to hide real name. It was Rob Halford when he was a dev with GridCoin. And now using a pseudonym as Robert Andrews. He wants to hide and its a bit difficult to register has a non-profit when you want to be a one-man show and also have to reveal your name. I also wouldn't want any other person being a front-person since it becomes a huge risk and liability to put your name on an organization that you're not leading. I don't know, I hope I can be proven wrong. It'll help get the BiblePay app on the Apple Store.

I agree about the non-profit. I've been seeing more and more coins making foundations, non-profits, or even outright companies. I read a couple of days ago the BitTube even just got a license to operate as a financial entity.

The more popular that crypto gets, the harder it will be to remain even semi-anonymous as a dev. At some point there will be more laws, and the enforcers of those laws kind of count on people not hiding their real names. It doesn't matter, once it gets out, that will be the end of hiding.  I think Rob is trying to have it both ways. If you want to stay anonymous, then have a person at the forefront for communication and stay in the back and code. If you want to be the big leader, then the anonymity has to go (if we want success large scale).

I haven't tried the mobile wallet, and should download it and give it a try. I know from the desktop client, I end up uploading about 1GB/day in chain communication, which is kind of a lot. I was told it was because all nodes in BBP are full nodes. Do you know if the mobile wallet operates this way or differently?

Best person to ask is MIP but I recall the mobile wallet download the headers only. It is a fork of bread wallet. The servers the mobile wallet connects to handles the block chain syncing and ask the heavy lifting.

You can see the Uganda Women vote go from 8 to 155. I'm sure he'll slow roll his votes to make it look like its by the community... but basically, it is Rob holding 25% of the masternodes and voting with them every month. You just need net 10% out of all the masternodes online to pass a proposal. So, if there are 600 masternodes, then you need a net positive 60 to pass a proposal. If Rob was welcoming of the community voting without interference by him, he wouldn't vote... But he is scared to lose control and power. Rob just made took 39M BBP and made 25 more masternodes: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?924074.htm

This is why he wants to increase the masternode requirements... #1 make it more difficult for new people to buy masternodes and vote, #2 save money on his hosting costs.

You don't someone that wants to grow the coin and increase participation wouldn't behave in such a way. How can anyone trust the coin this way?

I agree about Rob's masternode power, but still I support increasing the masternode requirements. Dash masternode is worth over $100k and any serious coin is in the few thousand range. We are at $300. That's too low for the average investor. Also, I think we would have a side effect of more buying pressure on the market, because it will be required for someone to be able to buy enough coins for a masternode.

Which coins are trading at 4sats and have a masternode requirement of a few thousand dollars?

I think the masternode issue is just an outgrowth of the pricing problem with BBP. Turning 4 sats into a few thousand dollars is a lot more difficult than turning Dash's $100 price into $100K masternodes. ($100K  = 1000 times $100 price for Dash). By my math, it takes 1.4 million times price of $0.000203 for a BBP masternode at $300.  BBP is a far more expensive.

Expressed as a percentage of daily volume, the two are even farther apart. At a daily volume of around $250M, Dash has a masternode cost of .004 DailiyVolume. BBP has a mastnerode cost around a day's total trading volume. BBP is far less liquid, and is more expensive percentage-wise for a masternode.

Raising the masternode requirement does nothing to make the coin more attractive. It just makes it more expensive for prospective investors. What will make a difference is to get some trading volume and buying pressure that is organic to growth, and not just inflating volume by raising masternode requirements. I wish less effort was being made towards new features that are cool but may not help pricing.

As expected, Rob threw me under the bus at the SouthXchange chat and BTC Talk thread calling me a liar about his 40M creating 25 masternodes on Sunday/Monday and voting with them to move the vote closer to 4.5M BBP required for a masternode. It is all public blockchain data for anyone to analyze:

It all starts here:
http://explorer.biblepay.org/tx/9179c226c27bf76a525de7bd8f87aeae9966a298bd402253a0de5dad62a28ce0

You needlessly convert to dollars - you don't need math, it's simply 1.55m coins for a BBP masternode and 1000 coins for a Dash masternode. But you missed something - BiblePay is one of the larger circulation coins out there. In fact, its circulation is 1.5b, while Dash's is 8.7m, which is about 170 times more coins. So to be able to make an analogous comparison between the two, we need to divide the 1.55m masternode cost by 170, which is around 9000 BBP. So a BBP masternode is 9 times more expensive in relative terms than a Dash masternode, but not 1500 times. But in absolute terms, it's extremely cheap. Of course, it's all about the price - if we had a 9 times higher price like we used to (36 sats), that would solve the cheap masternode problem.


I agree, liquidity is terrible in BBP.


For wannabe investors, yes, but for any average investor, $300 is not even worth looking at. I mean the monthly income is not worth the hassle and hosting fees. If you are so confident that raising the masternode requirement is bad, then why not lower it? Let's make it cost $50, what do you say?


I agree we should have more organic growth, but that's an easy thing to say. I don't agree with your last sentence however, because I know many coins which don't do anything, just have some hype and not any actual features and regular (or any) development. I think that active development is one of the most important factors for a coin's health and attractiveness. Why we don't have more people interested in BiblePay, it's anyone's guess, but I would say it has a lot to do with the name itself and the religious features, and that is the hardest obstacle which we may never overcome.

Ah, here we go again... You really shouldn't have used this as an example, now bringing attention to that event again. This sentence of yours is all what is needed to be done with this conflict:


So clearly you didn't use the feature as intended, since we were not going overbudget that month. Even if you argue that we were going overbudget, the proposal was immediately reentered for the same month, instead of waiting for the next one. But even if you argue that it could now fit the budget after a tiny BBP reduction, the proposal was evidently rejected and could not win, so it shouldn't be reentered. You misused that feature because the proposal received a lot of negative votes, but you really wanted it to succeed because you already paid from your pocket. It's very simple.

And saying you "forgave" me for my undeniable blockchain proof, what a joke, you are a master of manipulation, because the situation is the other way around - it's only others who can forgive you for your misconduct. You know, you would look like a bigger man if you admitted your mistake and moved on, instead of raging.

It seems like Rob sees himself as a saint with no evil coming from his sinful human mind. Ultimately, this is the frustration that all will face. If Rob is never wrong, then it automatically means that you are always wrong. That's the definition of a toxic relationship.

I convert to fiat because that's the ultimate value. If there was no conversion, all the talk about performance is just that.

I'm probably too dense to understand the difference between the number of coins. We can't compare 8.7m to 1.5b because the number of coins is largely a function of pricing. Dash can't have a billion coins at its current pricing, and BBP can't have 10m coins at its current price. This is exactly why I use the fiat conversion, because both price and circulation are different. But again, I'm probably misinterpreting your post. And I can see my math is a bit wonky. :)



This is by far my greatest concern. We have to see increased volume to know that the current path is leading to success. I don't see how playing with the sanctuary pricing will make the volume go up. $200/day is $200, no matter what it buys.



I don't think the price per masternode is so relevant. If the average investor has $100K to invest, they're looking at buying 300 sanctuaries or getting in on a shared Dash node. Either way, their absolute $100K investment can work in both scenarios, and just comes down to performance. But imagine the fun of having 300 BBP nodes and outvoting Rob. :)

Changing the cost to $50 wouldn't have any effect I can see. Again, investors have a set amount of money to invest. at $50 everyone is just getting more masternodes for their dollar. Is there any competitive edge to lowering the cost? Is thee any issue with flooding the network with masternodes at a cheaper price, other than the rewards being spread thinner? Even then, is the return on investment any different either way?



True, there's a lot of empty-calorie projects out there. I also think the name isn't helping. When I hear Biblepay, I think of Paypal, or some method of paying for goods. But as we know, adoption of a coin is a really rare and limited thing. So when someone asks, "What can I pay for with Biblepay?", we can only say Subway sandwiches?

I don't think religion is the issue, other than certain people inserting their personal religious beliefs in the discussions here and on SX chat. If a person doesn't agree with those beliefs, it can be off-putting, even if the person is Christian. I'd like to see BBP more inclusive, focusing on its core values rather than when the world is going to end.

I agree about the dollar value, but I meant literally, you don't need dollars and math to get this "1.4 million times" result:
"By my math, it takes 1.4 million times price of $0.000203 for a BBP masternode at $300."

Because "$0.000203" relates to 1 BBP and "$300" relates to 1.55m BBP, so it's just 1.55m coins for a masternode and that is 1.55 million times the price, not 1.4 million. :)


Exactly how I feel. I focused on the religious part, but I forgot to write that the "pay" part really bugs me. It's totally misleading, because BiblePay is not a payment service and its primary goal is something completely unrelated to the name. And the average Joe doesn't care about the fact that the algorithm uses Bible verses. A relevant name would be "CharityChain" or something of the sort. Also, one of the most problematic things is that the BiblePay name evidently looks like a joke to many who encounter it for the first time, which I don't think is possible to amend without changing the name. It's a shame that people can't take BiblePay seriously, since it's a coin with one of the most serious goals I know, and with serious active development.

You hit the nail on the head with "its primary goal is something completely unrelated to the name." If the project was primarily to take rewards and distribute Bibles with them, then BiblePay would be a decent name. But there's nothing about Biblepay that makes me think of orphans. I'd guess that the original hope was (as is for most crypto) that there would be more adoption. If so, the name makes more sense.

"CharityChain" is actually a pretty good name. I was trying to think of something more Christian-sounding, but I like CharityCoin because it doesn't put religion first. I strongly feel the world needs help wherever it can get it--and not just from a platform for religious giving. It would be kind of cool--having charity as the name's focus, and keeping the Jesus stuff there, but not at the forefront.

As poor as I am at predicting things with BBP, I'm fairly certain Rob isn't up for a name change, with all the investment in the current name and logo. Changing branding is a bunch of work, and better done earlier than later. Still it's an interesting discussion about how the name reflects the coin's purpose. It would probably take the project being abandoned or a hard fork to make it an option. We'll see.

Edit: Saw you posted this on the main thread. I'll keep my reply here. :)

I like having Christian values first. Charity coin might limit the purpose of a coin. Maybe if Christian values is to forward the kingdom, you might support translation of Bible in new languages/dialects. Or supporting individuals in jail that spread the Gospel. Charity can be an important aspect, but I don't feel it should be the only mission of a Christian based coin.

In terms of economics... Bitcoin is 21M. 90% of that will be mined ~2029. BiblePay's 5.2B will be around 90% also at the same time. I say all this say that you multipley Bitcoin's 21M x 247 to get to 5.2B. If you multiply BiblePay's fiat value of $0.00026305 x 247, you only get $0.0649 as opposed to Bitcoin $5,250.

Like you guys said... no trade volume. Most of what you see is price manipulation by bots selling and buying. So, I even question any activity aside from someone buying a masternode or selling for charity. Then you have a volatile dictator for a lead dev, so that instills very little confidence. Those are not good recipes for growing the community. Greed can only drive a coin so far. The holy grail for crypto has always been daily use of the coin. To get the network effect, people have the spend the coin beyond charity. The charity is not even community based. It is one person selling on an exchange for fiat.

I think the Proof of Sponsorship was a great idea. You have individuals sponsor a child. They are responsible for that child. You show documents, receipts, etc. And the community votes on your proposal for that child. That gives each person a reason to sponsor a child and get BBP in return. It'd be pretty powerful to say you have thousands of sponsors.

https://hbr.org/2019/04/want-fewer-employees-to-quit-listen-to-them

In this context, investors are the employees. Listen to the community and you will have happier "employees".

Management 101

Or the golden rule:

Default got raised in 200k I believe in BiblePay (<1.2) but on Evo, rob took it back to 2k. Maybe he will merge the code back to allow bigger denominations.

I should credit to Rob for things I don't know about yet. What a crazy egotistical guy.

Can anyone confirm or deny this for me? Was there an announcement?

You've heard this from whom? Where are you reading these rumors?

I've used purepool for BiblePay for a year. I always get to pick the address it pays to.

I was thinking it had more to do with Rob's 10 day bonus thing from the pool?

I'm more of a discord person than bitcointalk - but during the mass delisting there were a few different coins getting removed from C-CEX whose members were putting this theory forward in their own discord channels. I remember somebody asking directly in the CCEX chat and someone else said they asked on twitter but didn't get an answer. Sorry I don't have the exact links, I'd have to do more historical searching than I think this is worth. We got an official denial in the other Biblepay forum anyway, so that's fine. I expected it might just be a rumor, looks like that was the case.

The Discord link for BiblePay is here:
https://discord.gg/RK8n4xh

You seem like a reasonable person. Thanks for asking questions and keeping an open mind.

Hi Sunk818,
In biblepay forum you wrote:
https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?topic=394.15 (https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?topic=394.15)

"Vps cost less than $1/mo."


How do I get VPS for less than 1$/month ?

It can be a crapshoot with overloaded/oversubscribed... but you get a few vendors that actually do a good job. DM me and I'll send you a few I've worked with in the past. $1/mo or less is a gamble... if you pay $2/mo you get KVM VPS which is better than OpenVZ. I suggest you read lowendtalk or lowendbox and also read reviews of the company. My recommendation is never go for the 3yr double the resources offer because you don't know if the host will be around that long. Maybe 1 yr is worth the risk, but go monthly if you can.

sunk818, [07.05.19 12:36]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Rob put a proposal in to change GridCoin to have masternodes component and the community voted against him. So, he learned from that. He made BiblePay added a masternode component and has had voting control through masternode ownership ever since.

Togoshige, [07.05.19 12:40]
@sunk818 Do you have any proof that Rob has "voting control" of BiblePay?

Togoshige, [07.05.19 12:40]
to have full voting control you would need to own 55%+ of the masternodes ("Proposal approval occurs when yes votes minus no votes equals 10% or more of the total available votes.")

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:08]
[In reply to Togoshige]
I've done blockchain analysis to see how many masternodes he owns. I estimate he has 125-150 masternodes. That means he has voting control..

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:14]
[In reply to K - GIN▪XZC▪ZEN▪POLIS]
Dangerous in the sense that power is consolidated to fewer people and those that want to join now need to purchase more BBP to get involved. This will ensure Rob will cement his voting power plus spend less on hosting fees to do it. Its a win-win for him.  Unfortunately, the voting details are not working right now... https://forum.biblepay.org/cc/governance/116850 — but when non-Rob masternode holders voted against this proposal, all of the sudden, there was a 100 yes votes, then another 25 yes more from recently created masternodes originating from addresses that Rob owned. They came from the Orphan Foundation address and his Proof of Giving (BME6) address.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:15]
@sunk818 Document your analysis for all to see and view over, otherwise its just speculation

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:15]
I just want to be clear that this project is centralized lead by one person. Nothing wrong with that. Many small altcoins have to operate this way. Its that Rob wants to give this miscommunication of the project being "decentralized" by a "community".

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:15]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Anyone can see on the blockchain. I've posted the links on Discord before.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:15]
Assuming Rob does own 25% of masternodes, how is that voting control? Only 35% have to vote against

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:16]
Do you understand what "voting control" means?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:17]
What does voting control mean to you?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:17]
Why are you trying to FUD what I've written?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:17]
Why are you spreading FUD?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:17]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Apparently, not the same as yours. You want to count total masternodes.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:18]
Explain your definition then

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:18]
[In reply to Togoshige]
There's no FUD in what I've written. — only truth.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:18]
because 150 masternodes out of 600 masternodes is not control

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:18]
rob votes + other votes = total votes

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:19]
rob votes / total votes = rob has voting control

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:19]
You have no documentation to back up your claim of how many masternodes Rob may own, show me your full documentation/analysis

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:19]
You assume people that are not voting dont count?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:19]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Why? You're already calling me FUDster. :)

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:20]
[In reply to Togoshige]
people that do not vote are not voters.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:20]
that is by definition

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:21]
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?772869.htm

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:21]
follow the biggest output - that leads you to: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?924074.htm

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:21]
Choosing not to vote is a choice, they still have voting power, but you seem to like to not count them in at all

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:22]
What is the Total Votes for your equation?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:23]
[In reply to Togoshige]
not voting is a choice, but by definition, that is not a vote.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:23]
I just looked at the consolidation proposal, there were 424 total votes

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:24]
Assuming like you say that Rob has 150 votes, thats 150/424 = ~35%

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:24]
that is not voting control like you claim

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:25]
and you still have not shown your full analysis/proof of how many masternodes you believe Rob to have, it is just speculation

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:26]
I just gave you a link.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:27]
If that's your attitude, I don't need to bother.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:27]
You gave a link that shows 39 million BBP

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:28]
Rob only needed 10% over 163.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:28]
Ive disproven your claim of voting control

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:28]
Unless voting control to you means 25% masternodes, 35% of masternodes that vote

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:28]
LOL

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:28]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Not really. You picked one proposal that had the biggest turnout ever.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:29]
Look at every other proposal that passed since the inception of the project.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:29]
Oh so now the parameters of what Total Votes means changes? And all the non-voters get cast out still?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:32]
total votes are by proposal. how else do you calculate it?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:32]
non-voters are not voters. why do you keep bringing up a point that's a red herring.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:33]
Just because they dont vote now on something, doesnt mean they wont vote later, look at the consolidation proposal

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:33]
Yes, I have no argument with that. What's your point?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:34]
You claim Rob has voting control, assuming your numbers, I disproved you on that, or do you feel that my analysis is incorrect?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:35]
Or will your stance change to, "sometimes" Rob has voting control lol

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:35]
because of others not voting

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:35]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Yes, your analysis is incorrect. You looked at one proposal.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:35]
There were others that voted yes on that proposal.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:39]
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?924071.htm is the link I sent you for Apr 2019 where he created 25 masternodes to swing the vote his way.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:48]
Im all for transparency, but youve made false claims of voting control and keep changing your definitions and parameters on it, and on the masternode ownership count you havent documented your analysis publically all together in a report and have only given 2 explorer links today —— I want the truth to be spread, not speculation, and youve been spreading speculation as fact

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:53]
[In reply to Togoshige]
That's your opinion. I've made no false claims. Your reception to the link I've posted shows you're not interested in transparency.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:54]
I've not changed any definitions on the definition of "voting control". You misunderstand what it means to vote vs owning a masternode.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:54]
I guess you're not familiar with how the voting process works.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:55]
sunk818, [08.05.19 12:18]
rob votes + other votes = total votes

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:19]
rob votes / total votes = rob has voting control

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:55]
Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:23]
I just looked at the consolidation proposal, there were 424 total votes

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:24]
Assuming like you say that Rob has 150 votes, thats 150/424 = ~35%

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:55]
And then after that you couldnt define what  "total votes" means

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:56]
total votes is 424.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:57]
plus the 4 that put in abstain vote

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:57]
Then how does your claim that "Rob has voting control" stand up against this?, Ive shown that Rob, by your numbers, Did in fact not have voting control

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:58]
150 is enough to influence the vote and have voting control

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:58]
So now your definition changes once again

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:59]
My definition hasn't changed. You keep saying that.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:59]
You think he needs to have 250 yes votes to have voting control?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:00]
He just needs to vote enough to get to 10% net yes and that's voting control for DASH & BiblePay.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:22]
Your spreading misinformation that Rob has control of voting, Ive disproven you, Why cant you accept it?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:24]
[In reply to Togoshige]
LOL, because your assertion is not true.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:24]
In your mind, b/c someone may own 25% of masternodes, they are somehow in control, And thats not true at all, To be fully in control, to where no one could ever vote against you, you would need to own 55% of masternodes, so the other 45% could not outvote you, so that youd always have to the 10% you need to pass

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:25]
Your math is bad because only the masternodes that vote count in any proposal.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:25]
Youve gone down some weird path of this definition of yours "voting control", which doesnt make any sense

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:26]
Ugh, it makes perfect sense. You've never voted on board proposals in real life?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:26]
Do you own stocks at all?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:27]
I went along with you on your definition of "voting control" to see where it would go, and I showed a case where Rob could not have had "voting control" and you dismissed it and changed definitions again and brought up some "influence" factor, And yet you still claim he has "voting control"

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:28]
[In reply to Togoshige]
I'll give you a hypothetical. Say Rob didn't want this to pass or there's a proposal for lapdances at a strip club. He could vote his 150 NO on the proposal. He has voting control because he can bring up the result he wants on any proposal. That's voting control.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:33]
Your definition changes once again, now "voting control" is, having enough votes to sway a controversial proposal in either directoin after everyone else has voted ———— What if it were 50 Yes votes and 50 No Votes on Proposal X, does that mean anyone with 10+ masternodes would have "voting control" by your definition?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:35]
[In reply to Togoshige]
That's not an accurate example.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:36]
Its misleading to get the answer you want.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:36]
Do you agree Rob made extra 25 masternodes ~April 15?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:37]
Lets not mix the two subjects yet, Im still trying to understand your definition of "voting control", it keeps changing

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:37]
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?924074.htm

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:37]
[In reply to Togoshige]
😂 I'm not going for your bad example. Its not the same.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:37]
I provided a good example, and applied your current definition of "voting control", but now you claim that that is not "voting control"?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:37]
lol

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:37]
That's a terrible example. My example is actual numbers.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:38]
My question though is related about the 25 masternodes.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:38]
Bear with me.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:39]
So, the vote first-second week of April was the proposal was as NET NO.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:39]
Rob then made 25+ masternodes to get it to a NET YES

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:39]
Sun, maybe in fact, you are the one that is "misleading to get the answer you want.", I keep using your definitions and I keep proving you wrong, and you then keep changing the definition, and now you are saying my example is bad, when its a totally plausible and good example, before that you brought up some "influence" factor, how deep will you keep going to try and twist things and change things to fit your false narrative?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:41]
If it were a false narrative, then you'd have to explain why Rob reacted to  net NO on that proposal, created 25 masternodes, voted yes with them, to get to NET yes.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:42]
The blockchain has all the evidence written in plain sight for all to see.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:42]
Then why reject my previous example?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:42]
I applied the same logic and definitions that you have to that example

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:43]
"What if it were 50 Yes votes and 50 No Votes on Proposal X, does that mean anyone with 10+ masternodes would have "voting control" by your definition?"

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:43]
Alright, I'll bite.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:43]
""voting control" is, having enough votes to sway a controversial proposal in either directoin after everyone else has voted"

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:43]
150 yes/150 no.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:44]
the 150 yes votes are from rob, and 150 no votes are from others

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:44]
25 more yes votes are from rob

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:45]
I accept your example

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:47]
So by your definition of "voting control", Rob only has "voting control" on controversial/split proposals with lots of votes? —- How often do we have split proposals like that? —-What of proposals where most vote in one direction? What of proposals where people dont really vote? —- Is there still "voting control" in those instances?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:51]
What do you think?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:52]
look at march 2019: https://forum.biblepay.org/cc/governance/104550

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:52]
Im trying to understand your definition

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:52]
You rejected my example of 50 yes votes and 50 no votes meaning anyone with 10+ masternodes has "voting control"

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:54]
I accepted your example... I just changed it to real world examples 150 yes / 150 no, with 25 yes.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:54]
so 50 yes and 50 no could not happen in the real world?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:57]
And in your example of 150 and 150, could not another person with a high amount of masternodes change their vote or decide to vote as well?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:57]
Could not many people with a small amount of masternodes together decide to vote in one direction to chnage the vote?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:59]
Do the other whales not have" voting control"? Do those on the sidelines not have "voting control"? Do other groups of fish collectiveley together not have "voting control"? —- Or only "Rob" has "voting control"? With this assumed 25% of masternodes

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:00]
[In reply to Togoshige]
What's the reality vs the hypothetical. All your hypothetical obviously have a yes... do the proposals in real life bear that out? no.

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:01]
Essentially, we're stuck at total masternodes (togo) vs voting masternodes (me).

Togoshige, [08.05.19 14:06]
Youve continually been unable to define your concept of "voting control" and keep changing it ——- I proved a real world example of Rob not having "voting control" you wont accept it —— I believe your trying to push a narrative of Rob being in control of voting, when in fact he is not in control —— I believe you are spreading misinformation and misleading people

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:12]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Sorry, you've proven nothing.  If that's your opinion, you can have it. You're stuck on my "definitions" because that's seems to be the only thing you can attack. How does it feel to say to you are right? We will let the real community decide.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 14:23]
Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:23]
I just looked at the consolidation proposal, there were 424 total votes

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:24]
Assuming like you say that Rob has 150 votes, thats 150/424 = ~35% voting power

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:31]
Yup, for BiblePay that's enough for voting control of every proposal.

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:31]
Its been a blessing because Rob never had to vote with that many, but he had to show his hands when so many NO votes appeared.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 14:35]
Sun your assuming my motives and feelings —— My goal is to increase the value of BBP, Im not sure if you share that goal —— especially with your words the past weeks given your falling out with Rob ——- Im not enjoying debating you, I feel down actually —— Ill gladly post this debate for all to see so they can make up their own minds

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:37]
[In reply to Togoshige]
My goal is to increase the value of BBP as well. Not at the cost of transparency. Honesty is so important to a project, and there's a lot of trickery going on with Rob's framing BiblePay as "decentralized community" BiblePay is.

Wow, if ever a post could have used a TL;DR. :)

So the gist is a discussion about how many masternodes Rob controls, and how that affects voting and his power.

I think it's a fallacy to say someone needs 51% of masternodes to control the vote. That's only true if 100% of masternodes cast votes. I don't have a sanc because I have a moral issue with masternodes, but I have a hard time believing that 100% of masternode owners vote on each proposal. Does anyone know on average what percent do vote?

Even having 1% more than the combined voting power of those who vote, is enough to tip the scales. Even less than that is needed, because some people are going to vote with the dev or with which direction the proposal seems to be going.

I have no proof of anything, but my gut tells me there's something that's being hidden. The anonymity seems strange in this case. Maybe it's justified. Over time, I think less.

I think if larger investors are going to come back in, they're going to want to know what the real distribution of power is. I wouldn't dream of making more than a modest investment without knowing how the voting works in real life. I still can't decide if this is a monarch coin or not.

I went through 50+ pages of old Rob posts and found these relevant posts:

===


===


===


===


===

Understanding BiblePay Masternode Governance:
http://wiki.biblepay.org/UnderstandingGovernance

===

Robs publically claimed he owns 20-25% of masternodes 3 months ago

Id still like to see your analysis though Sun

I still support the masternode system and I support Rob owning whatever he owns

===

The criticisms the masternode system faces are not new, read these Dash comments:

IAMA Masternode owner who rarely votes
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/567o23/iama_masternode_owner_who_rarely_votes/

MNO voting behaviour
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/alfmn1/mno_voting_behaviour/

Best way for non-masternode DASH users to influence DASH budget proposals?
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/5ay0vl/best_way_for_nonmasternode_dash_users_to/d9mb99f

We should change voting from Masternodes to EVERYONE
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/64fuyf/we_should_change_voting_from_masternodes_to/

Will masternode voting eventually lead to Dash being controlled by the wealthy?
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/7dthw5/will_masternode_voting_eventually_lead_to_dash/

===

I disagree with sunk818 and secoccular on their view of non-voters and how it relates to control, non-voters still have control, theyre choosing not to use it and to let the proposals go the direction they are going, if they cared to change the direction of a vote, they would vote --- Any masternode owner has money on the line, why would they choose to not vote if it went against their view on how to increase the value of their money?

Masternode Owner Confession from an above link:
"I have masternodes, and I rarely vote. I run masternodes for a friend, who rarely votes. I see a lot of arguments about people upset that proposals often pass or fail with less than half of nodes voting. I dont think those people understand the reasons why so I thought I would give some insight.

Am I lazy? No.

Do I give a shit? Yes

Then why do I rarely vote?

Because I am happy with the outcome most of the time. When I do vote, it's often last minute on a proposal that's close, or risks superseding something I care about. If it doesn't meet one of the above criteria, I don't vote."

20% to 25% sounds about right. I said 125-150 masternodes at last count. I already gave you links but you just rather argue some position then actually appreciate the analysis I've done.


You can have an opinion like we do. Silly to debate opinion.


You know, this is exactly what people did for the vote to change from 1.55M to 4.5M BBP for a masternode. You know what happened? On April 15, Rob went ahead and used 40M BBP to create more masternodes to vote with: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?924063.htm

So, it is quite laughable when Rob suggests masternodes vote on important issues. When they do, he will go ahead and out vote them anyway. If he really wanted to listen to the will of the community, he wouldn't pull such stunts to maintain power.

If its silly to debate opinion, then why do you keep debating?

The data is that Rob only owns ~20-25% of masternodes, but somehow in your mind, this means he is in control

Im not sure how anyone who owns 25% of anything is in control of it?
If I own 25% of a business, am I in control of it? No

Its a silly opinion to have, and youve gone down a silly path of weird definitions to push your opinion

I believe in your mind that you cant believe that there are other people in the community who actually support proposals that Rob supports

Have you unknowingly surrounded yourself with only people that share your opinions?
Do the messages from other community members you see only represent a subset of the community?

You act as if you speak for everyone else in the community, You do not

Like Ive said before, there are many in the community who lurk, who dont talk, who are in the background, but yet you speak for them? You do not

Explain where I state I speak for the community of users? There are some that share my opinion. There are others that share your opinion. No one knows the exact numbers. I don't need to re-hash the conversation you posted from Telegram. Unless there's something new you want to cover, you're just wasting both of our times.

Your business analogy is not that relevant. We're talking control, not ownership. I'm not sure how at this point anyone is not calling this a monarch coin. I'm OK with that, but it is so strange to me that anyone would say Rob doesn't exert an incredible amount of influence over the coin. In fact, if it wins or fails, it's pretty much his doing. He seems to control the direction a lot.  He pushes his agendas, and seems to decide which direction things should go. Will anyone here describe Rob as open-minded, mellow, and deferring? No, he's a classic Type A personality. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it's so obvious to observe I'm unsure of how to debate a dissenting view.

The "Have you unkowningly surrounded yourself with only people that share your opinion?". That's a pretty funny projection. That's' the problem here, there's no real disucssion other than pro-Rob or anti-Rob. As a community, we really don't have much power. Even if we vote to go a different direction, Rob has stated he would quit. If the lead dev quits, the project is dead. That sounds like control to me. If anyone else quits, it's recoverable. If Rob quits, it's not. Not much of a choice when it comes down to it.

The assumptions and attacks on whether someone speaks for the community or not is ridiculous. We all have a voice, and trying to silence one says a lot. Communities that allow themselves to be torn apart and the monarch exerts control, usually die from lack of community support. This is just my observation from watching a whole lot of failed projects.

It doesn't matter how many lurkers there are. No one can guess that or speak to that. But one thing is clear, however many of them there are, they sure aren't buying the coin. Instead of pointing fingers, what is your idea Togo to get people to buy the coin. All this philosophy you and sunk are engaged in is empty if the coin ends up in the toilet like so many others. If we cared about the coin more, we'd address this issue instead of these debates.

I pretty much agree with everything you've just said secoccular

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Without Rob there is no developer to continue BiblePay developing with the same time commitment and passion,
and as investors that is the risk we have taken investing into the project
(as opposed to Dash coin, that has a team of developers and large monthly funding to pay developers)
[I feel like maybe people didn't understand this risk when they invested though]

Theres the ideals of what people want things to be, and then theres the reality of how things really are

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I very much value freedom of speech and open communication, and I have never silenced anyone (other than spammers)

(Sun decided the other day to ban Rob from Discord... I unbanned him)

If Sun is going to keep pushing his ownership/control interpretation though, I will keep pushing my interpretation, I do not want people being misled

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I believe many in the project have been overly critical, and have spent time talking a lot,
which is okay, discussion is good and great ideas can come from that,
but we need to help spread the coin, to help grow the coin and increase the value,
we have lots of people with opinions (and many lurkers), but not many doers

I recently documented all my marketing/advertising ideas/discussions again:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg51053114#msg51053114
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg51053212#msg51053212
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg51062536#msg51062536

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I dont claim to point any fingers, to me its as simple as it being a brutal 1 1/2 year bear market, and us going through a lot of changes

We havent spent much of any time/money/thinking on Advertising/Marketing,
we can have a great product, but if no one knows about it?

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In the past few months I have:
- commented about BiblePay in multiple Bitcointalk threads
- commented about BiblePay on masternode articles
- updated the website to reflect all new changes
- updated the ANN post to reflect all new changes
- updated the mining guides
- posted my charity investigation into the public
- helped test new evolution code in testnet, helped others setup testnet masternodes
- continually post BiblePay updates to reddit and twitter
- clicked like on other Christians on Twitter, replied about BBP to other crypto charity initiatives on Twitter (Dash Text, Binance Charity Foundation)
- posted again about how PrivateSend/CoinMixing works and run one coin mixer
- tried to get Rapture coin to merge with us
- posted on all other Christian coin bitcointalk threads
- posted about cryptocurrency to a Christian subreddit
- confirmed that GIN hosted masternodes can vote
- still run the main block explorer
- contacted Christian / Libertarian websites
- wrote medium article, got us published on Masternode Buzz
- wrote recent email newsletter
- updated our Facebook and boosted a post, tried to get us enabled for ads on Twitter
- clarified our number of orphan sponsorships and how to view them

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1087591;sa=showPosts
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1087591;sa=showPosts;start=20
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1087591;sa=showPosts;start=40
https://www.reddit.com/user/togoshige/
https://twitter.com/BiblePay/likes
https://twitter.com/BiblePay/with_replies
https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?action=profile;u=6;area=showposts
https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?action=profile;u=6;area=showposts;start=15
https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?action=profile;u=6;area=showposts;start=30

Ive been mainly just trying to keep information flowing from the forums to the rest of our community and to the crypto community
and to help out where I can (updating info, helping test, etc)
I wish there was more funding so I could do more!

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Many of you in this thread do not even have Forum Signatures to help spread BiblePay!
that is an easy first step to help spread BiblePay on the most highly used forum for crypto miners/investors! :P
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7s1qsy/bitcointalk_forum_signature_guide/

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I think a lot of technical people are against marketing/advertising for some reason, they dont value it or they think lowly of it

I also think people do not like stepping outside their comfort zones either, but we are all part of this startup, we can all try on and wear many hats,
Do you guys really think I have any idea I know what Im doing LOL, Im just winging it

That's been my intention all along, but somewhere along the way, I stopped caring. Only the Holy Spirit can change Rob.

This is why I state transparency is important.

I feel people don't invest in this coin because it is too complicated for unnecessary reasons. I think Rob's constant tinkering with what he calls "features" or "innovation" brings way too much headache to everyone else whom is more interested in a stable coin/wallet. His constant boasts of his ideas not having bugs and then later comes out there were bugs doesn't help either. Nobody is a perfect coder. It is one thing to say that nobody has reported a bug. It is another to claim that there "are no bugs". If he is all about sticking to the facts and "not misleading investors" then he needs to do just that. Rob was very clear what was in his heart when he immediately threatened to label me a Satanist because I disagreed with his reasoning on BOINC on Apple devices and Apple's stance on not allowing apps that pull executables from 3rd parties to run within the app. Apparently he knows more than several others Dev's that have been trying to get DC projects in the app store for almost a decade. I'm still waiting on them to accomplish their goal of an Apple miner app. If grandma cannot figure out Walmart Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Apple Pay, etc.... then he is delusional to think his app is anywhere remotely close to the common person or a 5 year old to use.

People continue to call this a charity coin rather than support Rob's idea. The core mission is to bring more to God. However, I don't see how all his gimmicks are really converting people to God. Charity work can do that but I don't see donating money converting people to God. I believe it comes from our labors.

Seeing how crummy this Dev treats those that have truly tried to help out and embrace this coin speaks volumes as to why many won't want to put money here. If you want people to come here, make another Dev the face of the coin.

As far as the argument on control. Sunk has a legitimate argument. One doesn't need 51% to have controlling majority. 51% is controlling ownership. When all it takes is 1 person to sway the decision one way but takes 25+ to sway it back, then that is definitely seen as having control. Especially when you rarely have 51% of the voters (not nodes) actually participating in voting. Those votes may "matter" from a philosophical stand point, but from reality they don't unless they are cast. One person casting a lot of votes is much more influencing than a few casting minimal votes.

I love how Rob sets conditions for redemption for others (including myself). Yet he never sets the same standards for himself. What an ego and lack of humility in his own follies. We're all human right? But it takes a courageous person to admit weakness.

I bought a Subway gift card using BiblePay. It came to me via FedEx from Walmart. Kind of neat to use BBP to buy gift cards.

Hopefully, he offers Amazon gift cards as an eCode. It'd be pretty easy to include a signed message with your e-mail inside.

Nice of you to join PoG. I thought Orbis had a lot of prominence and then you beat Orbis 10x :)

2019-06-24 16:36:53 Trying connection to GET /SAN/LastMandatoryVersion.htm HTTP/1.1
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OS: MAC
Solution: 
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 Received HTTP/1.1 200 OK
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:36:53 GMT
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1.1.8.9

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Local/Greytown-Gazette/children-given-new-hope-20190716

Children given new hope
2019-07-17 06:02
Andile Sithole
PHOTO: Staff and management of Khayalami with some of the children at the centre.

IN an effort to keep Nelson Mandela’s spirit alive, local NPO Khayalami Children’s Home has taken an initiative to spread love to abandoned children and orphans.

Khayalami was formed in 2004 as an NPO by Miriam and Hans Christian Holst and the local board as overseers. Being an orphanage and house for the homeless, the centre believes that it is important to know both traditional and modern culture and try to expose the children to both as much as possible.

Orphanages are not necessary, says Kandiah
Reformer campaigns for children to be cared for in families

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2019/23-august/news/uk/orphanages-are-not-necessary-says-kandiah

Still censoring posts in the main thread. Seriously, this offends you Rob?

"Got on the wrong chain again. Today it showed me tripling the total amount in my wallet. Stripping everything yet again. Let's see what happens this time."

Odd. That seems so harmless... SVK Noko said his post was deleted but didn't get notification


https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-26/former-church-chairman-indicted-in-theft-of-11-5-million-in-church-money