Bitcoin Forum

Thank you for posting that DrG. I don't think I am new but I know there is a lot more I need to learn. I don't frequent this forum very much but I have enjoyed many of your posts.

I also wanted to address GAW/Zenminer. As a customer of theirs with 8 miners on "the ZenCloud" I am very satisfied with them. Even before the merge both have shown me they care very much about the customers. I have had a few bumps with them but they have stayed in constant contact with me and made every one of my issues right. In my book that counts for a lot. I been on this earth for a few years and I know "Stuff Happens" and it is how that stuff gets felt with that counts the most.

I would second your suggestion to read up on difficulty and the such. Find out all you can before you make a leap into the crypto realm. I am still trying to figure out how to ROI…LOL but once you get involved in this it is highly addictive. No visible chance to make my money back but I just can't stop playing around with these miners…LOL

I would also add once you take DrG's advice and educate your self….never and I mean NEVER invest more money then you are willing to loose. One day this all looks good and you gonna make some ching and 10 minutes later BTC went from $630 to $513 ( I just lost $200 BTW)…. ;D

@Bitsaurus …LOL I just read your snappy comebacks to the "shill posts"  :D

PB mining is a bit odd, but still you pay 100% more then if you buy hardware, so it is possible to make a profit for PB mining. Still I understand your ponzi accusation, my first thought.

I wanna buy an additional 200 ghash, but am scared that they will vanish in a couple of months when they have a lot of orders :(.

Another cloud mining service is Gigascrypt.com, haven't read the terms yet, but looks promising!

1) Total lack of any real mining from ZenMiner Cloud, as confirmed by more than 50% of the pools ZenMiner Cloud claims to allow miners to select. No increase in hashrate, workers, etc. from ZenMiner Cloud, nor "affiliation" or "private stratums" that Eric/Josh have claimed in the past, as commented on by at least four of the ZenMiner Cloud user-selectable pools.

2) No documented evidence of physical miners or an actual datacenter presence, as much as you guys like to post photo/video propaganda of Josh being the "scrypt king" -- just seems odd you won't post any kind of proof.

3) Extremely heavy handed moderation on HashTalk of any discussion of these issues or any other question/topic that you dislike.

4) Increasingly large delays in shipping orders both from GAW and ZenMiner.

5) Decreasing amount of non-ZenMiner Cloud hardware available for purchase at GAW (and increasing prices on the few items that are available).

6) "Interest" on ZenMiner Cloud held-bitcoin -- seems an awful lot like a ponzi scheme.

7) Discontinuation of "founders club" benefits like the promised upgrade paths, free hosting for life, etc. without any announcement or discussion possible - again due to heavy handed moderation on HashTalk, and refusal of customer service representatives to address the issue.

I posted this in the ZenMiner thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=720322), but it seems important to note the following issues with GAW/ZenMiner here as well:

Good points here.

Since scrypt mining has negative ROI. They might as well take your money and pay you back a smaller portion of it every month.

Good points in this thread. I looked into Lunamine as it appeared genuine, but I would never buy a fixed term cloud contract as it is exactly the same as me giving you $1000 and you saying you'll give me back $50 each month, but i cant access the $1,000 ever. Its a losing proposition all day long. I have traded CEX GHS, but not sit and hold as that will not reward as the underlying asset inversely tracks difficulty.

By the way everyone (almost) in this thread has a gambling signature deal that pays out on the number of posts made (at least I think that is how it works). Nothing wrong I guess with that just that it shows everyone is after your BTC or $ be it gambling, cloud contracts real or ponzi etc.

Due diligence will point you in the right direction these sort of threads useful part of that process

Good points in this thread. I looked into Lunamine as it appeared genuine, but I would never buy a fixed term cloud contract as it is exactly the same as me giving you $1000 and you saying you'll give me back $50 each month, but i cant access the $1,000 ever. Its a losing proposition all day long. I have traded CEX GHS, but not sit and hold as that will not reward as the underlying asset inversely tracks difficulty.

By the way everyone (almost) in this thread has a gambling signature deal that pays out on the number of posts made (at least I think that is how it works). Nothing wrong I guess with that just that it shows everyone is after your BTC or $ be it gambling, cloud contracts real or ponzi etc.

Due diligence will point you in the right direction these sort of threads useful part of that process

For those of you who want proof to see how desperate these companies are, they literally pay people to come onto these boards and post spam supporting them.  Here are users I and others have identified as shill posters.  Click on the user profile and look at their post history.  If 1/2 their posts are promoting a company they are paid shills most likely.  When was the last time you went around telling people how awesome liquid plumber cleaned you pipers  ;D

drawer - new user and 3/4th of his posts are about his supported company
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732923.msg8309461#msg8309461 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732923.msg8309461#msg8309461)

testerman - posted the same text in 7 different threads promoting PBMining
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732923.msg8331652#msg8331652 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732923.msg8331652#msg8331652)

 Thanks for the informative post on cloudmining.  I have and will continue to avoid it.
One thing I would like to mention is that you have an ad and a link in your sig (as do I) for which you are being compensated.  Like it or not, we might be no better than the "shill" posters you have identified.

 Thanks for the informative post on cloudmining.  I have and will continue to avoid it.
One thing I would like to mention is that you have an ad and a link in your sig (as do I) for which you are being compensated.  Like it or not, we might be no better than the "shill" posters you have identified.

Is Mining even profitable anymore? The difficulty is rising so fast, that in a year people with 1.6 TH/s will probably only mine like 2-5 cents/day ...

Well people are all in for cloud mining today

They crash the whole Shopify network payment with the release of -- The Hashlet -- http://gawminers.go2cloud.org/SH38 (http://gawminers.go2cloud.org/SH38)
It happen this afternoon, shortly after the Hashlet was available

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/gawminers-introduces-hashlet-shopify-crashes/2014/08/16

There is profit in mining, unfortunately right now all hardware has to be bought from ASIC manufacturers.  They set the price and timeline as to when they deliver your hardware.  If it costs them $100 to make a miner they can sell it to you for $500.  If you buy 1 miner, they can afford to now buy 5 miners and compete against you at 5 times the rate.  Sad, but this is what has happened - see Dogie's ASIC manufacturer Guide https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.0) and notice all of them get an F for ethics even though they may sell very good hardware at a good price (like Bitmain).

Not sure how you calculate your profit. When I run a profit simulator on bitcoin mining, even bitmaintech S3 miners do not show any profit after you factor in the electricity cost.

Unless you have free to extremely cheap electricity cost, there is no point in mining.

Some fresh feedback about Hashlet profitability

https://hashtalk.org/t/first-hashlet-payout/6402/20

The hashlet
http://gawminers.go2cloud.org/SH38

I'm on hold with scrypt mining, I prefer going BTC only.

I hope nobody thinks that cloud mining scams are new or rare. There have been many cloud mining scams in the past.

Here are some:

MiningUnited: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=189872
TimeToBit: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=665330
All those "perpetual mining bond" scams at GLBSE.

It will not work for you if you take it as an investment. But if you buy them, keep them a while and sell them for the same or higher prices you will make a very good profit. Please note that the price on CEX is a market price. There are people willing to pay 0.0038 per GH/s. And there are thousads of them. At kryptologika the market prices are much lower, the maintenance costs are also lower and we add silver price protection for the GH/s.
Perhaps you could make an extra mile, visit our site and compare CEX prices and kryptologika prices and comment here?

@DrG you're probably right.
I have never thought along this lines as during beta we are focused rather on functionality and marketing plus a number of other technical issues. After all most of the cloud hashing undertakings are anonymous not transparent at all.
Just to address a few points you have raised...
In beta the silver coins will remain in my drawer as I am the man behind it. I do not think there will be any situation I would need to use them as I believe hashing will be profitable long enough to cover the costs and bring profits to the users. Once we implement the full version I have two options: I am happy to escrow them or I would still keep them and store them in place like merrionvaults.ie Personally I would prefer to escrow them to a trusted person from the bitcoin community and I know such person but never discussed it. Escrow would require also distribution of the coins to those users who would be able to collect at least 1TH/s as per our T&C. This would require further arrangements etc. Actually there is only one person I would trust in this respect but I am not going to disclose his name at this moment.

Once we sort out the fiat payments we will be selling only for fiat and only thorough third parties, be they exchanges or businesses or any other company  who would be interested in buying from us GH/s in blocks and re-selling them to the public. We do not intend to be selling long term on the platform as we do at the moment. At that stage the whole busines will be transferred to our company registered here in Dublin. If someone is interested in details I am happy to provide registered name and copies of the certificates, which date back a few weeks. In this respect full transparency no problem.

It all actually depends on two factors: how long would it take to implement fiat payments into beta and how successful beta version would be. As I have stated before we have our mining operations located in Poland and in China. Polish DC is not going to be developed too much any further (apart from the KnC Neptics in the pipeline) as the equipment and hosting prices in China are basically unbeatable and we believe things are going to be that way for long if not forever. I am expecting the photos with our logo from the Chinese DC shortly thanks to courtesy of our counterparts there.

And to be honest with you I am happy with the situation as it is now because I am sure that at the end of the day we will be as transparent and reliable as it should be. I will not be struggling now trying to convince everyone who I am whether I have any miners (some photose in the main kryptologica thread) and whether there is any silver in my posession or escrowed.  I am happy that the people can judge by themselves.

In the mean time I will keep calm and continue mining and promoting kryptologika ;)

I'm thinking about investing into cloud mining but i don't know where...  :-\

Can someone explain to me why the ranking on these two sites is so different?
http://www.cloudminingreviews.com/ (http://www.cloudminingreviews.com/)   
http://cryptoverse.org/cloud_mining/ (http://cryptoverse.org/cloud_mining/)   

On cloudminingreviews 808 mining is on rank 6 and at cryptoverse 808 mining is on rank 26 (the last one).
Should i trust any of them?
PBmining is rank 1 on cryptoverse but only rank 8 on cloudminingreviews !?

I'm thinking about investing into cloud mining but i don't know where...  :-\

Can someone explain to me why the ranking on these two sites is so different?
http://www.cloudminingreviews.com/ (http://www.cloudminingreviews.com/)   
http://cryptoverse.org/cloud_mining/ (http://cryptoverse.org/cloud_mining/)   

On cloudminingreviews 808 mining is on rank 6 and at cryptoverse 808 mining is on rank 26 (the last one).
Should i trust any of them?
PBmining is rank 1 on cryptoverse but only rank 8 on cloudminingreviews !?

Thank you for your candor.  It is always helpful for a business to see things from the customer's perspective.  Think of a 15 year old who would have to work 3 months mowing lawns to earn 1 BTC.  Why would they be willing to give out their money to somebody who's face they don't know, whose name they don't name.  If you can instill confidence in the customer by proving your are a legitimate operation then they may consider using your business.

Be careful in who you choose as escrow.  If your escrow runs away with money that was supposed to be for the protection of your customers you are still legally liable.  Most customers should not fault you other than bad judgement, but that won't stop he mob mentality people develop.

If a cloud mining business is honest in what they provide and they follow-through with what they promise it should be celebrated as an upstanding business even if it may not be profitable for the customers.

It will not work for you if you take it as an investment. But if you buy them, keep them a while and sell them for the same or higher prices you will make a very good profit. Please note that the price on CEX is a market price. There are people willing to pay 0.0038 per GH/s. And there are thousads of them. At kryptologika the market prices are much lower, the maintenance costs are also lower and we add silver price protection for the GH/s.
Perhaps you could make an extra mile, visit our site and compare CEX prices and kryptologika prices and comment here?

What's the value in backing a virtual commodity that you create on your own with another commodity? I guess I don't understand the principal of how having silver ensures anything when the virtual commodity is always decreasing in value over time because of difficulty?  So 1gh today is worth whatever you say it is (1/10 oz or whatever) and in six months 1gh would be worth 1/20th, etc.  Unless customers could withdrawl in silver, what's the value?  

Not trying to attack, just trying to understand.

I notice that  you have mention about many sites for cloud mining but you haven't mention about Genesis-mining. I think Genesis-mining is providing the best offer of cloud mining. Here is the official thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=602022.new#new

There are a lot of theories about Zen cloud hashlets and if or what they are mining.
The theory that makes the most sense is that they are leasing or renting out the
hash, which brings in more than a normal multipool. That is my guess at what is
going on. And I have bought some hashlets, see my sig for discounts. Right now it
seems like $15.99/mh with the guaranteed best pool is the way to go.

It would be nice for you to add Megamine.com if you'd be so kind.

Our announcement thread here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=636096.0

If you'd like a small account so you can check us out I'd be delighted to arrange that, especially given the work you seem to put into this forum.

We are new but real, you can find out who runs us (http://www.megamine.com/aboutus.php), we are backed by a well respected private equity company (Black Green Capital), we are fully approved and undertake all necessary ID checks for everyone's peace of mind (http://www.megamine.com/idrequirements.php), accept both CC (and hence you get Credit Card protection) and bitcoin payments, are UK head quartered, operate in Sweden, and quite happy to show off our kit buzzing away and answer any questions.

With our recent price change and given the size and the advantage of running on 100% hydro power, we've just dropped under the /GHs cost of the next generation of 20nm THs miners with the small advantage of you get instant activation with us rather than having to wait for the next batch of kit.

KNC Neptune Batch 3 : £5,995:3THs turn up 'Q3 2014'
Megamine Mega Miner 2TH x 2 : $6,200:4THs turn up the second you order it.

J
www.megamine.com

It would be nice for you to add Megamine.com if you'd be so kind.

Our announcement thread here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=636096.0

If you'd like a small account so you can check us out I'd be delighted to arrange that, especially given the work you seem to put into this forum.

We are new but real, you can find out who runs us (http://www.megamine.com/aboutus.php), we are backed by a well respected private equity company (Black Green Capital), we are fully approved and undertake all necessary ID checks for everyone's peace of mind (http://www.megamine.com/idrequirements.php), accept both CC (and hence you get Credit Card protection) and bitcoin payments, are UK head quartered, operate in Sweden, and quite happy to show off our kit buzzing away and answer any questions.

With our recent price change and given the size and the advantage of running on 100% hydro power, we've just dropped under the /GHs cost of the next generation of 20nm THs miners with the small advantage of you get instant activation with us rather than having to wait for the next batch of kit.

KNC Neptune Batch 3 : £5,995:3THs turn up 'Q3 2014'
Megamine Mega Miner 2TH x 2 : $6,200:4THs turn up the second you order it.

J
www.megamine.com

Added to the list.

Thanks for the offer for an account but I'll pass.  I do medical charity work every 2 years and have a separate BTC wallet just for that if you want to donate a few bucks for that (this Thanksgiving I will be working with some friends from the VA down in Gaudalajara, Mexico in a community clinic for 6 days).  I guess I could make a charity account haha.  Haven't found a place to buy medical supplies with BTC for those reading ... some of you could cater to those doomsday preppers  ;)

I can tell from your posts that you spend quite a bit of time studying the mining trends.  As johnnybravo0311 noted it may not be the best return compared to buying hardware, but that is up to the end user to decide.  KNC, Bitmain and AM aren't exactly promising you'll make money either - it's up to the end user to decide what is right for them.

I noticed you signed the announcement "Justin Fielder, CEO & MD".  Is that MD as in physician or some other abbreviation in the UK?

Be delighted to. PM me the wallet address and I'll throw something appropriate there. Not sure about being able to help with buying medical supplies in BTC thought!

But if johnny doesn't we don't mind that - it's just a perspective and if he thinks he can mine better himself then we're not going to tell him he's wrong, and clearly even if he's not mining he can make his view known and we can give ours and the end customer can make their mind up.

We purposely don't make any claims about what may or may not happen (check out our website, we even say on our front page that "Please remember that past performance is not an indication of future growth of the global hashing rate which directly affects the amount of rewards that your hashing contract may make.".

Not only is it illegal in the UK for us to do that under the FCA (the financial regulator), we are in the market of providing a service which people can make their own choice about if it makes sense for them. We've no interest in making massive claims about returns or anything else, we just put the contracts up, give a decent set of information for people to make their own mind up, and leave them to it. No whizz bang schemes, no MLMs, no pumping of the forums, just here it is and see what you think.

Given the contracts we've sold so far it seems many people do like our proposition, but also given that everyone that visits our site doesn't buy something, others think it's not for them. That's cool. Our existing customers seem to like it with many now over the 10THs level, and almost all have added additional contracts. At the same time we continue to contribute a reasonable chunk of doing the important bit of mining which is verifying the transactions.

Megamine is just one of the businesses we have active in the bitcoin arena so it's not a do all or die, and for us ensuring that we are incredibly close to the mining is very important for some of our other investments which will ultimately rely on the integrity of that, and of course everything we haven't sold we mine for ourselves so it's not all bad news for us.

Thank you kindly.  Address is 1Lhp53MUmGaaRvrQ3ZcxxCrsgnniNFfZrw - if the funds are not used by 11/30/2014 they will be returned.  I probably need to by 2 BP cuffs, 2 3M cardio stethascopes, a couple opthalmoscopes and some other nickknack stuff.  I have a measly 0.554 in donations and that came from a bitcoin meetup - haven't received a tip or donation in 3 years so I ended up selling my sig  :D

My sentiments exactly.  You put the information out there to the best of your ability.  As long as megamine does up and run in the middle of the night like lunamine then it's all just business.  It's up to the customer to decide.
Does the UK have a website to show how a company is incorporated?  For example in California all corporations can be looked up here:
https://businessfilings.sos.ca.gov/ (https://businessfilings.sos.ca.gov/)
It always provides reassurance to know a company is real if they're had to get entrenched with the bureaucracy that is business licenses and incorporation.

I'll get that done for you.

Yep.

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=accessCompanyInfo

Company name is Megamining Ltd and company number is 08849351

A quick google of "Justin Fielder" will throw up a whole load about me and my background - prior to this I was CTO of Easynet (www.easynet.com) for 16 years so we are indeed real and not running anywhere.

Our sister company that hosts Megamine's kit is Hydro66.com which is making a very large investment in Sweden ($millions) in building a physical 150MW capable datacentre. The local governments development agency in Sweden's announcement of that is here http://thenodepole.com/2014/05/13/hydro66-build-new-wholesale-data-centre-node-pole-region/

Justin
www.megamine.com

Thanks.

Be delighted to. PM me the wallet address and I'll throw something appropriate there. Not sure about being able to help with buying medical supplies in BTC thought!

It's alas my 'job'.

I don't mind comments like johnnybravo0311's because people invest for a whole host of reasons. Of course what he says is correct in the simplistic view that if difficulty continues to trend upwards higher than a certain rate then it would indeed be better to do the 'buy BTC now' than even buying hardware!

But of course it is a big IF, and if he's got a fine crystal ball then I assume he also doesn't buy international stocks or shares he just buys fiat currency :)

It also negates the view that with mining contracts you get a constant 'dividend' stream which you can invest how you like, potentially taking advantage of changes in the market. If you buy BTC and hold then you've 100% locked your final gains entirely against the price of BTC at the point you realise verses the point you bought, rather than having additional factors that can affect the overall returns. The same as 'pension funds' and 'property is my pension fund' views. Each are fine, just make sure if you do the latter that when you want to realise it that the housing market hasn't collapsed.

Again the analogy with buying international currency verses buying a share in a company isn't that different, after all who would have bet in the late 1990s that Apple would be the largest company in the world. You could of course have bought Guatemalan Dollars at the time as well which given where Apple was market share wise against Microsoft may have seemed the better choice!

The comparison we believe with kit is indeed valid. Generally 8-12 weeks means around 50% of the earnings of a certain hash rate will have been collected, so if you are around even double the price of kit alone, then by the time you factor in pool luck issues (which we remove with our guarantee), power (which is fully inclusive - the power alone at $0.10/kWh for a Neptune is nearly $1500), and downtime (we provide a SLG that means even if we did have a bit outage it doesn't affect your earnings) then we believe it's great value. So will you get that kit you order today in 1 week, 2 weeks or 12 weeks? If you are sure that's cool, but given we buy kit by the 100TH load we aren't that sure that all the claims made about availability are actually true.....

But if johnny doesn't we don't mind that - it's just a perspective and if he thinks he can mine better himself then we're not going to tell him he's wrong, and clearly even if he's not mining he can make his view known and we can give ours and the end customer can make their mind up.

We purposely don't make any claims about what may or may not happen (check out our website, we even say on our front page that "Please remember that past performance is not an indication of future growth of the global hashing rate which directly affects the amount of rewards that your hashing contract may make.".

Not only is it illegal in the UK for us to do that under the FCA (the financial regulator), we are in the market of providing a service which people can make their own choice about if it makes sense for them. We've no interest in making massive claims about returns or anything else, we just put the contracts up, give a decent set of information for people to make their own mind up, and leave them to it. No whizz bang schemes, no MLMs, no pumping of the forums, just here it is and see what you think.

Given the contracts we've sold so far it seems many people do like our proposition, but also given that everyone that visits our site doesn't buy something, others think it's not for them. That's cool. Our existing customers seem to like it with many now over the 10THs level, and almost all have added additional contracts. At the same time we continue to contribute a reasonable chunk of doing the important bit of mining which is verifying the transactions.

Megamine is just one of the businesses we have active in the bitcoin arena so it's not a do all or die, and for us ensuring that we are incredibly close to the mining is very important for some of our other investments which will ultimately rely on the integrity of that, and of course everything we haven't sold we mine for ourselves so it's not all bad news for us.

MD = Managing Director - means the buck stops at me for the day to day as well as the 'strategy'. It's a UK term.

J
www.megamine.com

Neither Megamining Ltd or company number 08849351 was found with the companieshouse.gov.uk website suggested.

This website, http://companycheck.co.uk/company/08849351/view  did come up with some info however.

Hi Justin,

First, I want to thank you for taking the time to come here and reply both to DrG and myself.  As I stated in my original post, I realize that you run a company and as such you wish to make a profit for your company.  I also stated that I do not begrudge you for this.  Let's face it, unless you're some kind of philanthropic and altruistic entity who is doing it for the love of the Bitcoin, you're out there to make a buck (well, pound sterling in your case ;))

[snip]

Charging $3100 for 2TH/s is indeed a premium price that significantly reduces your own risk, and places it upon the consumers' shoulders.  Yes, the analysis I made in my first post was simplistic.  I did it that way on purpose to illustrate that risk.  In the interest of full disclosure, I currently own about 4TH/s of hardware in the form of 9 Antminer S3s, and 5 Antminer U2s (which I currently use to play the lottery and solo mine).  I have previously owned (and since sold) Antminer S1s, Antminer S2, Spondoolies-Tech SP10.

No matter how many times I look at this, I’m still confused.  If an individual, company or organization has the capital to purchase mining equipment as well as fund the operation of a facility, than, why are they offering a service of selling/renting hashing power?

Why wouldn't these entities just mine away and make their profit and be happy?

GAW/Zen made sense to me originally when it was used as a collocation type center, but, now they are doing the same thing as everyone else.

Less risk. Would you rather invest 1,000,000 into mining hardware yourself and risk that BTC falls off/the difficulty makes it non-profitable or would you rather sink 1,000,000 into hardware but sell hashes of it so that the risk is far less while still taking a cut from each hash as well/they pay for electricity/maintenance/etc.

No matter how many times I look at this, I’m still confused.  If an individual, company or organization has the capital to purchase mining equipment as well as fund the operation of a facility, than, why are they offering a service of selling/renting hashing power?

Why wouldn't these entities just mine away and make their profit and be happy?

GAW/Zen made sense to me originally when it was used as a collocation type center, but, now they are doing the same thing as everyone else.

Because the companies make MORE profit by selling to you at inflated prices.  These companies are just as capable of doing the mining calculations as the rest of us.  They've spent quite a bit of time analyzing things to come up with a price point that minimizes their own risk, and transfers it solely onto the shoulders of the consumers.  Let's look at the latest offering from Bitmain/Hashnest.  They are offering 0.00135BTC per GH/s, and $0.0032422/GHS/Day in maintenance fees.  If you break that down, you'll see it translates into the same thing as purchasing an S2 for 1.35BTC and paying somebody $98.62 a month to host it.  In order for you as the consumer to have a prayer of turning a profit, the network difficulty adjustments must be 5% or less consistently at current USD->BTC conversions.

This is the game they play, and how they transfer that risk to you.  They are betting the difficulty adjustments will be greater than 5%, and also that the fiat->BTC conversion does not inflate dramatically at present.  By purchasing such a contract, you are betting against the house and hoping that either the difficulty adjustments stay absurdly low, or that BTC increases dramatically in value at the beginning of your contract and then continues to trend upwards throughout the timeframe of your contract.

Other cloud mining providers offer a fixed rate contract.  They're doing the very same thing, except charging you everything up front instead of amortizing the "maintenance" fees over time.  As an example, let's look at MegaMine.  They are charging $3100 for a 12 month contract of 2TH/s.  That's actually a bit cheaper than the same from HashNest (2TH/s at HashNest = 2.7BTC@$479 + 197.24*12 = $3660.18).  Regardless, the outcome is the same: you are betting against the house (in this case, you're betting that MegaMine is wrong in their predictions).

No matter how many times I look at this, I’m still confused.  If an individual, company or organization has the capital to purchase mining equipment as well as fund the operation of a facility, than, why are they offering a service of selling/renting hashing power?
Why wouldn't these entities just mine away and make their profit and be happy?

1TH is $2100 for a 1 year contract. $2400 for a 3 year contract.

...

Justin
www.megamine.com

A nice analysis, but you are assuming that BTC:$ stays fixed. That removes one huge variable which of course everyone knows isn't going to stay fixed. It might go down, it might go up, but one thing it won't do over a year is stay where it is today.

Not quite. Mining is really two investments: an investment in BTC, and an investment in mining equipment. This separation makes the analysis is much simpler.

You can also make profits on buying/selling shares just like on CEX. In our case (kryptologika.com (https://www.kryptologika.pl)) our shares are backed with physical silver which means that when buying GH/s you are buying shares in our repository of silver bullion coins. Thus you invest in GH/s and silver. You can trade them with profit or you can buy more shares andattached to it silver for BTC mined by your shares. Since we are mining on real hardware there are maintenance costs of course but these are reasonable and the whole mining undertaking is more or less the same as mining with your ASIC. At the moment we have the best offer on the planet.

Here's our press note from Monday:
http://bitcoin.einnews.com/article/221528446/b6m2AiWrl4xtt30d

But buying and selling hash is more of a trading then cloud mining, so it still doesn't mean its good to invest in cloud mining..

Buying and selling hash is more of a trading then cloud mining, so it still doesn't mean its good to invest in cloud mining..

You can also make profits on buying/selling shares just like on CEX. In our case (kryptologika.com (https://www.kryptologika.pl)) our shares are backed with physical silver which means that when buying GH/s you are buying shares in our repository of silver bullion coins. Thus you invest in GH/s and silver.

I bought hashlets and am happy with the results.
Here's the thread if you want to know more
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=752233.200

Like any 'investment' you need to take a view.

This is why all over our site we tell people that we can't advise them, and point them at Independent Financial Advisors to get advice if they need it.

Of course there are many cases where 'sound' investments have gone wrong (Enron anyone....), but also where 'crazy loss making' investments have proved exceptional returns (pretty much most of the Internet). I do fondly remember people telling me after Easynet's share price collapsed from £27 to £2 post March 10, 2000 (the dot.com bubble) that it was all 'rubbish'.

This is why I personally like threads like this, it shows a wide range of views and then informed decisions can be made by people reading it. I'm not going to tell you that mining contracts are guaranteed to make you money because a) legally I can't, and b) that is clearly rubbish. You may make a loss, or you may make an overall profit, or you may just get your money back.

I can't tell you which because I can't tell you what difficulty or the BTC:$ price will do any more than someone else can.

But then neither can I tell you which share stock to buy. Doesn't stop me investing in stocks nor many others.

J

FinalHash, come post your company's info in my thread.  While I personally do not feel that cloud mining is useful to me and it may potentially harm the network through centralization, I do see a place for it in getting people new to crypto involved with the mining process if nothing other than a learning tool.

My thread was meant to warn new users of the risks of potential ponzis and scams by people pretending to run cloud mining companies (right as lunamine ran off with 2000BTC).  If you have a legitimate company post the details here along with link to your website and proof of incorporation or at least of having mining equipment.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.0)

Cloud mining is either scam or unprofitable, either way its not worth it..

Thanks for the advice, power for mining is costlier than profit earned unless you have nice configurations.

Nice thread, well done.

Cloud mining is either scam or unprofitable, either way its not worth it..

We cannot agree with this. Mining can indeed be possible, otherwise people would not mine anymore.
I think the question you are referring to is: "Why would a company sell mining services if they would make profit by running their machines on their own?"

The answer to this question is simply, that we do it to decrease the risks of the our big farms by selling fractions of our farm. This way if we are profitable, also our users are!

We cannot agree with this. Mining can indeed be possible, otherwise people would not mine anymore.
I think the question you are referring to is: "Why would a company sell mining services if they would make profit by running their machines on their own?"

The answer to this question is simply, that we do it to decrease the risks of the our big farms by selling fractions of our farm. This way if we are profitable, also our users are!

That's a clever answer, but the truth is that you are competing against your customers. You only make money if they lose money, and vice versa. You are in it to make money, right?

Thank you very much for this awesome guide to cloud mining for beginners.Have just bookmarked this to read through in free time.

Actually it is possible for both to make profit.  If the cloud mining company buy 10BTC worth of equipment, and spend 5 in overhead they have an outlay of 15BTC.  If they sell that hash for 20 BTC but they make a 5BTC profit, but if that hash mines 25BTC then the buyer makes 5BTC also.

Unfortunately I don't see any deals where the prices are low enough for the end user to make a profit like that.

Come on guys, let's see some price drops :P

so what do you think the most legit and profitable cloudmining?

before I've been scammed in lunamine cloud mining

so what do you think the most legit and profitable cloudmining?

before I've been scammed in lunamine cloud mining

I would say that Megamine, Nicehash and Kryptologica have been willing to post here with their representatives and show that they're actually incorporated.  Of course anybody could come on here and say they're from that company.  I could say I'm Elon Musk and you have no way to prove/disprove that without more info.

GawMiner has so much customer service it's probably a legitimate company.

Showing block generation would definitely go a long way in generating trust as opposed to pictures of boxes on racks with no visible cables running to them. It would cost about $4000 to have an entire row of mock up paper boxes that look like 1PH/s.  It would cost millions to actually have actual Petahashes solomining.

As for most profitable that's another thread entirely...

I agree.  Justin from MegaMine has not only jumped into this thread, but many others to offer his opinions and views, and to show off his facility and hardware.  Further, if you're feeling so inclined, if you sign up for a 10TH/s contract with them, they'll give you a tour of the place and a "driving experience" adventure.  Pretty cool little promo.  NiceHash/WestHash is not your typical cloud mining provider.  They're more akin to leaserigs/betarigs.  Anyone who's got some hardware can sign up with them.  It's about the most distributed and de-centralized cloud mining model there is.  Kryptologica has had representatives here, and they've responded to questions in this and other threads.  I'm not entirely sure I understand the "backed by silver" campaign, but it is what it is.

Well I have explained earlier that escrowing silver has no sense at all.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.40

What I am supposed to do ? Send silver coins to someone? And what then when it comes to the redemption? Is that person supposed to distribute the coins to the receipients? I have actually discussed this with a respected member of this forum who does escrow and from economical point of view it does not make sense since the costs would be to high.

Basically  we are in control of the silver coins, American Eagles and Philharmonikers.
The purpose is to make buying hashing power on the platform more attractive and to protect the price from falling to zero as the hardware gets simply less and less profitable over time because of rising difficulty. Of course the whole process is subject to investing and re-investing so we will be having newer and better performing miners reducing the costs of maintenance but I think silver backup is a good idea as it is an investment in GH/s and silver together. We are also constantly reviewing the maintenance costs as well.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-hashing-power-trading-platform-040000538.html

Good point. No we do not have any protection or insurance against such loss. I do not think it would even be possible to obtain a policy for the miners hosted elswhere in China or even if so the premium would be massive. We would be not liable only in the situations as they stand in our T&C that is basically vis majeure and/or war, riots or Chinese government closing the data centres.

We will however think of a kind of assurance for our customers as this will be mutually beneficial. At this stage I cannot imagine what it could be. The things will be more clear once we move from beta and fiat purchases will be available, just a couple of weeks from now.

Anyway it is a very interesting discussion and I am thankful for all your comments. It seems inevitable that the cloud mining business will be maturing with time.

I agree.  Justin from MegaMine has not only jumped into this thread, but many others to offer his opinions and views, and to show off his facility and hardware.  Further, if you're feeling so inclined, if you sign up for a 10TH/s contract with them, they'll give you a tour of the place and a "driving experience" adventure.  Pretty cool little promo.

What about hashnest for cloudmining? Good buy?

What about hashnest for cloudmining? Good buy?

Nah, not worth buying it...

What about hashnest for cloudmining? Good buy?

Well CEX/Ghash is killing me with the fees.

I try to buy GHs as soon as ENOUGH btc is availlable to trade, but I go in a negative balance, for a couple of hours, constantly, when they start mining Alt coins, instead of btc. They say, Alt coin mining has no fees, but I still find, btc maintenance fees, are subtracted, after a few hours of Alt coin mining. {So it is slipped in their, anyways}

I threw in a few coins, to test profitability and to gain knowledge on the subject matter. {And to see if ROI can be possible}

The CEX/Ghash "cloud mining" fees, are huge. {Profit margin for miners, are tiny}

I will continue this experiment, in the hope, that the rise in btc price, would equal my investment. {And I guess, that is what every miner are hoping for}

My best bet, would be to sell GHs at a higher price, than what I paid for it.  :(

Thanks for the infomation, i've always been a bit sus on the whole cloud mining thing.
Someone i know has offered me a rockminer rbox 32gh/s asic for 0.0960 btc, is this a good offer do u think?
Not in it for the money just interested to try it for a few weeks or so.

Thanks for the infomation, i've always been a bit sus on the whole cloud mining thing.
Someone i know has offered me a rockminer rbox 32gh/s asic for 0.0960 btc, is this a good offer do u think?
Not in it for the money just interested to try it for a few weeks or so.

It's probably not just about when you start mining, but what you mine.

And about what profit you get in the end, still there too low bitcoin economic activity, they are not get used as regular currency. So I prefer to calculate exchange rates of pair bitcoin-USD and after - withdraw, Hope soon bitcoins go after 900 USD, hope this graphs be useful http://mining-profit.com/bitcoin

If you don't mind paying about 38% in fees, then sure it's a good buy... /sarcasm.

Think about it like this: it's the same as paying 1.35BTC for an Antminer S2 and then paying someone $98.58 a month to host it.

I think cloud mining is the way forward, No electricity costs, no worry about fire in your house 8) as I used to

since we started up http:/ /www.polminers.com we have had so many users say how much they prefer cloud mining and how much better ROI they get, Just look at the payout statistics (http:/ /polminers.com/pricing.php) and this is quite affordable for us.

Pricing just isn't that far from ROI, But it can be if you know how to play the markets. This is because big companies decide they want to keep all the profit, We are in fact the opposite we want BTC to buy new equipment to help you make more BTC, We see this as a WIN/WIN situation

I believe in what Gavin said on his blog. Most cloud mining services are ponzi schemes. While iim sure that there are some legit ones, i believe by far the majority are ponzis, the top of my list is pb mining.. They dont have any pictures, dont say where they mine, they magically have unlimited amounts of hashing power. My advice is to stay away from them, most likely you wont ROI...

I think cloud mining is the way forward, No electricity costs, no worry about fire in your house 8) as I used to

since we started up http://www.polminers.com we have had so many users say how much they prefer cloud mining and how much better ROI they get, Just look at the payout statistics (http://polminers.com/pricing.php) and this is quite affordable for us.

website has disappeared already - is this a new record?!

they could have it all pointed at one pool which gives them about 50% more than the online calculator.

I'm hopeful about PB mining. The hashrate you pay for is what you get, and this relates almost perfectly with an online calculator. Since you don't get to specify any settings with them, they could have it all pointed at one pool which gives them about 50% more than the online calculator. Just this fact alone, I think it's possible for them to last. I'm not 100% about the 50% more than the online calculator as I'm thinking that's possible based on what a couple people said. So, five years of anything is really pushing it online, but I hope all get returned what they put in, and then re-evaluate.

I'll start looking at the new signups per day, just to make sure it stays around, which I think it will as long as bitcoin does.

heres my cloud mining review [before hashlets] - http://fuk.io/cloud-hashing-and-rig-renting-services-review/

Anyone have a take on LTCgear ?

I have a few shares which have paid out on time every week, however the deal seems too good to be true in many ways which makes me worry that it is of course.

There is very little information which is a concern but then they guy that runs it was selling hardware before completely legitimately and research shows he seemed to be ahead of the game on chip development.

The deal is basically $850 (using the anniversary1yr code and with the BTC discount) for 160MH scrypt mining.  You ROI in about 4 weeks, but of course are tempted to reinvest (classic ponzi).

What do you guys think of this ? Too good to be true or ahead of the game ?  I think the site is seeing some big volume right now.  I am cautiously investing in this... banking some returns and reinvesting some.

I think mining contracts of bitfinex is not bad. 1.115BTC per TH now.
Pool fee is a bit high(3%), but all hosting, power and maintenance cost for the duration of the contract is included in the price per TH.

Announcement
https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements

Dividends history
https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/mining_stats

Justin,
You and I have engaged in a great discussion throughout this thread, and have expressed our opinions and views on the merits of cloud mining, the possibilities of positive return on investment, pricing models, etc.  While we may have had differences of opinions, I absolutely and wholeheartedly support what you've written in the quote.  Very well written.
+1

Hi,

Sorry, been on a well earned holiday.

Thanks for that comment. With the more recent negative news around mining we continue to aim to be open, transparent and straight forward and it's nice to see that people appreciate that.

J

Just to make sure I understand this - there's not profit in cloud mining or regular mining...instead mining sounds like a fun hobby just like go cart racing or ice hockey, it's takes an investment in your part, does not return any financial gain but can be a lot of fun.

Does this sound accurate or is there some miner out there still turning a profit?

Regarding the increasing of difficulty, you have Genesis Mining that gives you the option to mine in BTC (auto), if they don't just walk away with our money, you have garanteed ROI i think ?

LTCGear currently returns about 20% a week, nothing comes close.

https://www.kncminer.com/products/400ghs-btc-cloud-mining

Does anyone have experience with this btw?  It seems profitable?  But I don't believe it?

https://www.kncminer.com/products/400ghs-btc-cloud-mining

Does anyone have experience with this btw?  It seems profitable?  But I don't believe it?

I would not trust these guys knowing their past endeavors. You will be better setting things off with more reputable company imo.

Thanks for putting this list together, and the advice, so what do we do.
The basic idea of cloud mining is sound, if only it could be done with integrity and openess.
Why don't we all chip in and start up our own Cloud mining business.
Here's what I think might be useful.
We'd need energy, Diesel generators using waste veg oil collected and flitered from Restaurants.
We'd need to replace these very 3 - 6 months as they would break down, but a typical small Gernny can output asbout 3KW.
Enough to power 3 x 1 KW miners w2hich migh generate $30 - $50 per day.
So we hold back some of the payout, let's say 25% to buy a replacement generator every three months.
then we need to hold back another 25% to re invest and buy more hashing power to account for the difficulty and possibly, create a rising income stream if our increased capacity can exceeed the increasing difficulty.
Next I'd like thew 50% remaining to be sent automatically to my Brain wallet address.
actually we'd need to donate maybe 10% to pay for someone to maintain our cloud mining set up.
Do these numbers work.

https://www.kncminer.com/products/400ghs-btc-cloud-mining

Does anyone have experience with this btw?  It seems profitable?  But I don't believe it?

I have never spent a penny on BTC and don't even have a wallet.

I was almost conned into dumping thousands into cloud mining this week and decided to search for a bitcoin forum hoping to find something like this place.

Although it is obviously full of shills, I see several people are telling the truth and I think the OP is one of them.

It really appears that the party is over and there is very little hope in ROI and even less hope of a profit.

1) it is KNC be very cautious ..

2) will all the cloud mining hash coming out imho it is due to the fact they have LARGE mining farms to do so
    ie they will drive up the difficulty with their large arctic cooled 1c/kwh operations and gladly charge you
     in their fees say 8 - 10c kwh rates to host with them...ie imho you will never catch up..it will look good at
     the front end like most asic pre-orders and you'll be creamed at the back end of the contract with the mad
      rush to these good deals....and wash/rinse/repeat to the new newbie users

3) someone in a previous post says that cloud mining would work if done with integrity and honesty...look how
     well that worked with the asic companies making machines..then going to farms (knc) then mining 1500 units
      or whatever it was at a time  customer machines for 2 weeks before shipping as testing / burn in (bfl)

hell ..i just think the greed is too overpowering a case study is knc now the new bfl...it will start out ok and
be the same tune different venue in the end ..ie little guy is screwed

that sad part is ..will be another bitcoin scandal hurting bitcoin..then the new scam will come...wash/rinse/repeat

I think if you are a miner, you won't shut down your gear just because at the moment the BTC price is too low and it doesn't make economical sense. What if tomorrow it shoots up to 600$? then you will regret you didn't mine more.
With cloud services this might be different, but I don't think a single person shouldn't judge its mining profitability based on 24hour price of BTC.

There is a controversial argument on the forums in general:
1. Hold bitcoin because its price will go up, don't use it, just buy it and HOOOOOLD
2. It doesn't make sense to mine because I only make 10$ and my electricity costs 11$ NOW

Am I the only one who doesn't get this?

Regarding cloud services I red a comment at some other site saying
"CEX.io doesn't actually need to have any sort of mining equipment. Since the price of 1 GH/s is much more than it will EVER earn for you, when you buy a GH/s they will simply pay back part of it to you as "mining"."
Made me think....

That last paragraph of yours is exactly what the Ponzi scheme is.  I setup a cloud mining service and sell you a 5TH/s contract for $4000 for a year.  Assuming BTC is $400 a coin, you either will pay me 10BTC or I will purchase 10BTC with the $4000 you send me.  Even with 10% difficulty jumps, you are not going to "mine" that 10BTC.  At the end of your year's contract, you'll still be down 0.6BTC, meaning I've made that profit for myself.  Now, I get a whole bunch of people to sign up, offering different levels of contracts for different prices (the smaller the contract, the higher $/GH/s I charge).

In this scenario, I have never once setup any actual mining hardware.  I'm using the money I'm getting in for these contracts to payout the customers and keeping a percentage of it for myself.  As the service provider, I can adjust my pricing as needed, so if BTC rises in cost, I adjust my contract pricing upwards.  If it goes down, I can adjust down.  As long as I have some BTC and new customers signing up, I can keep on running the scheme.

This is why people like myself are constantly asking cloud mining providers for proof of their kit and proof of actual mining.  Very very few actually do.  So far, I believe Justin from MegaMine has been the only one to come on here and show off his setup.  Others come up with excuses as to why they can't.

One minor problem is that 3x1KW miners is about 4TH even using KNC Neptunes, and that gives you 0.03857BTC per day at 100% luck, or around $15.
Which means your generator is going to cost more than you earn, never mind the cost of the fuel to run around and collect all that waste oil.
Or buying the miner.
But 10/10 for an innovative approach. Personally we use just falling water and a turbine to power our kit, it's much less messy than veg oil! :)

J
www.megamine.com

That last paragraph of yours is exactly what the Ponzi scheme is.  I setup a cloud mining service and sell you a 5TH/s contract for $4000 for a year.  Assuming BTC is $400 a coin, you either will pay me 10BTC or I will purchase 10BTC with the $4000 you send me.  Even with 10% difficulty jumps, you are not going to "mine" that 10BTC.  At the end of your year's contract, you'll still be down 0.6BTC, meaning I've made that profit for myself.  Now, I get a whole bunch of people to sign up, offering different levels of contracts for different prices (the smaller the contract, the higher $/GH/s I charge).

In this scenario, I have never once setup any actual mining hardware.  I'm using the money I'm getting in for these contracts to payout the customers and keeping a percentage of it for myself.  As the service provider, I can adjust my pricing as needed, so if BTC rises in cost, I adjust my contract pricing upwards.  If it goes down, I can adjust down.  As long as I have some BTC and new customers signing up, I can keep on running the scheme.

This is why people like myself are constantly asking cloud mining providers for proof of their kit and proof of actual mining.  Very very few actually do.  So far, I believe Justin from MegaMine has been the only one to come on here and show off his setup.  Others come up with excuses as to why they can't.

he bragged about mining porn and it was nothing but a picture of freaking boxes

he bragged about mining porn and it was nothing but a picture of freaking boxes

Considering that you're a new user and you spammed the same wall of text verbatim in another thread I'm going to guess you are another shill just like I mentioned at the beginning of this thread.  How does that sound?

there has got to be other legit cloud based mining services maybe ones where i can pay with credit card

No he's right, I have LTCgear shares, I bought the 160MH on sept 20th, and it multiplied the 24th. I have already gotten back in BTC just under half of what I spent on it. I am pulling ROI first to be safe, but the site has worked out real well so far. I also have a good amount on zencloud, and I would change your review on them since the way it works has changed. They have shown the farms. Also GAW is by far the largest, and most reputable cloud mining site out there. LTCGear just seems like a sweet deal with the promo, on a small little one man show with no bells and whistles, otherwise his prices are just a hair below most of the market.

You also could check out Zeushash which just went out of beta and into full public mode, and hashnest thru bitmain, although at least right now most miners on hash nest seem to be 50%-90% in fees, so yeah not great.

#1 GAW
#2 Genesis
#3 Zeushash (Just on Zeus miners rep, and price per MH)
Interesting option not to go crazy on LTCGear (He has been around for a year, has been paying well, is very responsive, and everyone seems happy with the service. I did do my research before jumping in)

I'm heavily invested at both LTCGear and GAW. /shrug

If I can find cheap power I'll run my own machines again but until then.. spreading the risk between these two is working fine. If I run across another decently run outfit I'll probably invest with them as well.

I'm pretty heavily invested in LTCGear.  The simple reason we are promoting them is, we are all making money.  They have been in business for over a year,  payouts are early, accurate, issues are resolved fast.  You are more then welcome to join us on freenode @ #ltcgear.  You won't find a frustrated customer there, try to find that elsewhere!

I am curious to know why so many accounts suddenly popped up that are "invested" in LTCgear "shares" since they started advertising on the forum. I have never heard of them before a few weeks ago, but I now see probably hundreds of people claiming to be invested in them

Referral system came in not too long ago. People who have shares at LTCgear were probably investors earlier on, but it wasn't worth to advertise it.

I'm heavily invested at both LTCGear and GAW. /shrug

If I can find cheap power I'll run my own machines again but until then.. spreading the risk between these two is working fine. If I run across another decently run outfit I'll probably invest with them as well.

I love your list!! BTCBTCBTC

There are a few I haven't heard of and I'm looking forward to checking them out.

According to what I've been able to find in my own adventures in cloud mining I've made a list of 14 mining companies and ranked them by daily profit percentage!

Check out the full list on my website: https://sites.google.com/site/freebitcoinsforall/ (https://sites.google.com/site/freebitcoinsforall/)

The current top 4 are:

1) GAW ZenHashlet (from HashMarket mining HASHCOIN ICO) - $12.60 or 0.03631 BTC per MH/s SCRYPT
6.746031746031746% earned per day.  - Calculation: $0.85 ($0.17 X 5) divided by $12.60 multiplied by 100.
- Calculation: (net) daily payout divided by purchase price multiplied by 100.
ROI - estimated 14.82 days to break even without difficulty increases.  
Note: HASHCOIN ICO ends approximately December 1st 2014 - ZenHashlet will no longer mine hashcoin after ICO.
To get free access to HashMarket and 10GH/s send a request to - gawinvite@gmail.com -
Click here for more details on ZenHashlet w/ 5%...

2) GAW HashletPrime (from HashMarket mining HASHCOIN ICO) - $39.90 or 0.1162 BTC per MH/s SCRYPT
3.195488721804511% earned per day.  - Calculation: $1.275 divided by $39.90 multiplied by 100.
- Calculation: (net) daily payout divided by purchase price multiplied by 100.
ROI - estimated 31.29 days to break even without difficulty increases.  
Note: HASHCOIN ICO ends approximately December 1st 2014 - HashletPrime will mine hashcoin after ICO.
To get free access to HashMarket and 10GH/s send a request to - gawinvite@gmail.com -
Click here for more details on ZenHashlet...

With bitcoin payout it doesn't look so great at the moment:  ;)

14) GAW ZenHashlet (from HashMarket mining bitcoin) - $12.60 or 0.03631 BTC per MH/s SCRYPT
0.15877168824015422% earned per day.  - Calculation: 0.00005765 divided by 0.03631 multiplied by 100.
- Calculation: (net) daily payout divided by purchase price multiplied by 100.
ROI - estimated 629.83 days to break even without difficulty increases.  
Note: This calculation is so low because of daily fees per MH/s = 0.0002309 or $0.08
To get free access to HashMarket and 10GH/s send a request to - gawinvite@gmail.com -
Click here for more details on ZenHashlet w/ 5%...

Click here for full list: https://sites.google.com/site/freebitcoinsforall/ (https://sites.google.com/site/freebitcoinsforall/)

with this 3 minute tour u can get 10ghs BTC miner for start https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=853360

Great article!!! Thank you!

I'm testing on small quantities some cloud mining services. From this three I already get withdrawals:

Cryptomine.io - payments everyday, we can set withdrawal when is >0.02) - more here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=832448

Hash Profit - payments every day, withdrawal automatic when is >0.05) - more here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=755527.0

Cloud Mining.website  - payments every day, withdrawals one time per week in monday - more here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=843417.0

Today i start testing Cloudminr.io - atm i can not say to much, but in my signature you can find some informations and links.

Have you been able to determine which of these are Ponzi schemes and which are not?

This is a question to which no one (only the owners and their immediate surroundings) for long time will not be able to respond.
I've seen a lot of reviews and it is hard to decide whom to trust. So I decided to test it by myself, at the beginning in small amounts. Let see where it will go..

Trying with small amounts is not a useful test for a Ponzi scheme, especially if you plan to send larger amounts later.

Have you been able to determine which of these are Ponzi schemes and which are not?

The biggest Ponzi allegation is against PB mining and they have not failed even after a year.

i really more of this cloud services would have platform like cex.io I do own cex.io, i also have hashie.co, some havelock AMhash1 to try out and gawcloud hashlets oh and hashnest.com . I pointed out those names of things i have as OF TODAY since it can change tomorrow or even after i write this post lol. I just wish they would have interface like Cex.io where you can buy even in fractional GHS or alot if you wish. Also i like the fact Cex.io lets you see in REAL TIME earnings from each block found as they come in and clear confirmations. This other sites all seem to have daily payouts i HATE THAT i like real time stats and payouts. Also a big thing i love about cex.io and why i stay with them Despite high fees and prices is that you can make " vouchers " dont matter if it is for 0.5 GHS or for 500 GHS or 1TH can do it all and then we can gift them to other people for holidays or birthdays. Heck we can even sell the " cex.io vouchers " on places like ebay or amazon and i know alot of people like this option as do people who want to get into bitcoin but dont want to use coinbase or site familiar. Even some people that want to get into bitcoin cant cause they only like 13-15 so have no way to open account to buy bitcoin but can use prepaid cards on paypal to buy cex.io vouchers. This is just my 2 cents why i think more sites should be in the platform sense like cex.io i will post this same post on the 3-4 pages of forum i read most/ post to.

There is reason why this people (13-15) can't (alone) open accounts..  ;)

yes cause the regulation says no, but when i was 13 i would work snow time plowing snow and the summer i would work a few weeks in a ranch might not be much but each year i would safely say i made about $2000 a year maybe $2500. I know its not alot but this was back in early 90s. I would put all my money into a savings account and did this till i was 19 " legal age in my area " then boom hello almost $20,000 including parents and grandparents allowance and birthday and xmas money lol. Im sure i would have more but i would keep like 15% to myself cash to have. I can only imagine what it would be worth if i had something like bitcoin to put it into might have lost but might have made more than bank saving rate of 2.5% that i had

That is really nice story.. and looks like bank advertisement  ;) but reality is brutal and kids and teenagers are very easy targets for scummers.. Law is just to protect them.

E: When i was 13-14 i was selling newspapers on the street.. but i didn't even think about bank account! My target was PC 486 dx2 80Mghz with 4 MB RAM ;)

First off I will preface by saying that my only current holdings are BTC, LTC, Monero, USD and I am enrolled in Stunna's PrimeDice signature campaign.  I do not have any stake in any Bitcoin based business nor do I have any affiliation with any business other than my own medical practice.  I have a small GPU farm (residual of my previous monster) and 2 Antminer S3 B6 ASICs.

A lot of users are coming onto these forums learning about Bitcoin and hearing about people making some money and possibly even becoming rich or filthy rich.  While I will not say the time to make $ in crytocurrency is over, the chance to make significant profits by mining is gone (at least for now).  Many new users who are not familiar with how to build computers let alone mine on them come to these forums looking to invest $ and get involved with the cryptocurrency "craze" - the biggest notable coin obviously being Bitcoin BTC.

There are 3 basic ways to acquire BTC
-Mine them using dedicated hardware known as ASICs (previously CPUs and video cards were used, now that is obsolete)
-Buy virtual or cloud mining contracts with fiat (cash) and get a flow of BTC into your account/wallet for the defined contract length
-Buy them in person via localbitcoins or on an exchange like BTCe, Bitstamp, Poloniex, Crytpsy etc
-Work for them as you would with your regular job but receive payment in BTC as opposed to fiat like US Dollars - see the services section to look for job offers

So ever since CEX.IO started offering virtual or cloud mining a lot of users have considered this option since they didn't have to deal with the noise, heat, electricity rewiring, fire risks, maintenance and general headache involved with actual mining.  Many of the more "veteran" bitcoiners like myself felt that these companies did nothing for the Bitcoin community other than enrich themselves and we were vehement about avoiding these companies.  After all, why would a company go through the trouble of setting up something that would generate passive profit and offer to give you some of that profit.  No company performs a service like that in the real world - only charities do.  The prices at CEX are also insanely priced relative to actual hardware ownership but supporters of CEX will argue that the profit to be made is from trading and not from the actual hashing you purchase.  To that I would rebutt that why would you risk adding a middleman if all you wanted to do was trade for more BTC - you might as well trade BTC for fiat on an established exchange.

Well the discussion about whether or not cloud mining is good or not can go on and on - and it has valid points on both sides.  What I don't like to see is new users arriving on these forums looking to get involved with cryptocurrency only to have a bad experience and then end up thinking the cryptocurrency world is full of scammers and cheaters.  We do have thousands of scammers.  But we have over a million good hearted people who would be the kind of person to let you know you dropped your wallet in a store.  To that effect, I will warn new users to consider some things particular to cloud mining.  First, let me go over the risks of mining with real hardware so you can see why people considered cloud mining at first:

With real hardware:
1) You hope the company you order from is not a scam.  You hope you don't send them 5 BTC for a miner and then they just disappear.  Since BTC are NEVER reversible (unlike credit card payments) once you send your payment you are at the mercy of the receiver to send the coins back should you have a problem or want a refund.
2) You hope you get the hardware when promised. This was a HUGE issue for miners (myself included).  BFL shipped my pre-order almost 13 months after I ordered it, about 10 months late.
3) You hope the hardware, once it arrives meets specification.  It hashes at the right speed and uses the amount of power it said it would (or less preferably)
4) You hope the hardware is reliable and doesn't die.  With mining, time is money - at the present time is more important than future time - especially when the mining difficulty increase (please read up about Bitcoin difficulty if you do not understand this)
5) You hope you earn more with the miner than you paid - this should be obvious to be considered an investment.  Sadly this is where the majority of hardware manufacturers are failing their customers but with good reason - going back to why would somebody sell you something that could make profits for them?
6) You hope that if the hardware does fail the company will RMA it quickly

Now let's compare to cloud mining:
1) Again you hope the company is not a scam.  You don't want to buy a 5 year contract and then have the company run away after collecting up-front contract income for 6 months.  In the crypto world unless you know the names and address of the actual company you are dealing with you will most likely never see your money again.
2&3) Cloud miners typically will deliver exactly what they promised in terms of hasrate or people would get upset at the very first day and it would be bad for their image. You don't need to worry about specs and efficiency.
4) Cloud mining does require the mining company to be able to reliably mine.  I haven't heard of these companies having significant down-time or server issues
5) Just like with actual hardware no mining company has been shown to really be worth buying other than PBMining - and for that we have the issues below
6) You are relying on the company to be in business and holding up their contract for the set duration.  Now consider your contracts with phone carriers, internet access, cable TV etc.  I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but in the US these companies are notorious for changing the rules and changing your contract and secretly charging you more fees and trying to trick their customers with the full blessing of the US government (via FTC consent).  Now think about the crytocurrency world where many companies are anonymous and newly created - do you trust a company that has been around for 3 months to honor a 5 year contract?  If they go bankrupt who are you going to call?  Would you trust the 40 year roofing warranty from a 2 month old roofing shingle company?

And that last point #6 is where the biggest issue with cloud mining resides.  Let's forget about whether you'll make money or not.  Let's forget about whether they restrict you to mining on certain pools (or even algorithms if you're mining alternative coins).  Let's assume you get a contract and you start getting income into your wallet.  You have to HOPE that the company stays in business and doesn't shut down for the life of the contract - especially since many of these companies do not allow you to transfer ownership of your contract.  You are trusting these cloud mining companies.  If the company showed me the management positions, pictures of these people, address where the business is headquartered (not necessarily where the mining is going on for security reasons) then perhaps I would be willing to trust these companies.  I run a business myself - I am incorporated in California as a physician and my information is clearly visible to the CA public.  These mining companies should at the very least show you their credentials before you invest with them.

Gavin Anderson, one of the lead BTC developers recently echoed similar sentiments:
http://cointelegraph.com/news/112329/gavin-andresens-fractional-reserve-mining-cloud-miners-respond (http://cointelegraph.com/news/112329/gavin-andresens-fractional-reserve-mining-cloud-miners-respond)

Having said that, I will list some companies.  I am not endorsing any of these companies - just making a list for reference.  If a representative from the company would like me to amend statements or prove the company's validity please post in this thread or link to the official announcement thread.  The End User must do the due diligence and investigate the company before investing.

CEX.IO

• Considered the first cloud mining company and is a subsidiary/partner to Ghash.IO
• Allows you to buy and sell your hashrate at any time - this is the only way to make any profit from this service.  You will lose money if you just buy hashing power.
• Insanely overpriced (relative to physical hardware) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=661122.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=661122.0)
• Your cloud hashing may at times even cost you money due to the insanely overpriced maintenance fees you will lose money during bad luck spells

Megamine.com

• Added to list per joust's request (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8575319#msg8575319)
• This is their forum announcement (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=636096.0)
• UK based company, mining operation based out of Sweden company number 08849351 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8583360#msg8583360)
• Joust was kind enough to donate 0.25BTC towards my Guadalajara medical mission this fall (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8582353#msg8582353)

Finalhash.com

• Added to list per Finalhash's request (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8661739#msg8661739)
• They are incorporated in the  US state of Wyoming (http://www.bizapedia.com/wy/FINALHASHCOMLLC.html)
• Buying a contract appears to entail buying hardware which will be shipped to you at the end of the contract

GawMiner/Zenminer

• These 2 companies merged recently
• They allow people to host their own hardware - more like a colocation center as well as buy cloud mining power
• Has a decent reputation with a few people are complaining they are not very responsive
• Has SCRYPT mining via Hashlets https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=752233.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=752233.0)
• Phillipma1957 has a moderated thread here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=698679.0;all (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=698679.0;all)

Genesis-mining

• Added to list per daniel007's request https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=602022 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=602022)
• They have responded to ponzi accusations with pics of their mining centers in Iceland http://cointelegraph.com/news/112329/gavin-andresens-fractional-reserve-mining-cloud-miners-respond (http://cointelegraph.com/news/112329/gavin-andresens-fractional-reserve-mining-cloud-miners-respond)

Kryptologika

• Claims it is a silver backed cloud service - to have backing the silver must be escrowed somewhere which I have not seen details of this
• The owner has PMed me this link - you make the judgement https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732733.msg8329115#msg8329115 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732733.msg8329115#msg8329115)

NiceHash.com

• Nice requested I add them to the list https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8450547#msg8450547 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8450547#msg8450547)
• Allows hashing of different algorithms (SHA256, Scrypt, Scrypt-N, X11, etc.)
• According to johnnybravo0311 they do have actual equipment as demonstrated here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8455887#msg8455887 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.msg8455887#msg8455887)[/url]

lunamine.com

• CONFIRMED SCAM! - took contracts for a couple months and now the website is down - ran away with over 2000BTC!!!
• Ran a signature advertising campaign and failed to pay all the signature bearers stealing even more money!!! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=686826.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=686826.0)

PBMining

• Has undoubtedly the best prices in the cloud mining industry
• Should be assumed to be a ponzi unless it can be demonstrated otherwise since their model is unsustainable.  I don't accuse people instant but the company has not provided any proof otherwise despite multiple claims of operating a ponzi.  They also have no evidence of an actual farm, no evidence that they are actually mining (can't show block generation).  They may show pictures, but I can stand in front of the Statue of Liberty and claims it's mine.
• Will most likely end up disappearing like lunamine

If you have other major cloud hashing sites I should add please list them in the above format.  

Woah, this was a goldmine of information
Me and my friends decided to mine altcoins at home and now, we know that exactly what to do, provided that we get free electricity. I researches a lot about cex.io and it turns out to be a website which is useless but has a nice web design, that's it, only trading ghs might give profits, exactly what you said.
Thanks a lot mate.

Woah, this was a goldmine of information
Me and my friends decided to mine altcoins at home and now, we know that exactly what to do, provided that we get free electricity. I researches a lot about cex.io and it turns out to be a website which is useless but has a nice web design, that's it, only trading ghs might give profits, exactly what you said.
Thanks a lot mate.

If you're all about design, check out the new hashbase.
https://i.imgur.com/RREGdr7.jpg

Woah, this was a goldmine of information
Me and my friends decided to mine altcoins at home and now, we know that exactly what to do, provided that we get free electricity. I researches a lot about cex.io and it turns out to be a website which is useless but has a nice web design, that's it, only trading ghs might give profits, exactly what you said.
Thanks a lot mate.

In my opinion CEX.IO is Cloud Mining Service like McDonalds is restaurant.. ;)

I dont understand is that suppose to say cex is so large like mcdonalds or are you trying to say cex is like mcdonalds that they dont sell best food yet they still have billions of orders served since they are fast and efficient  ???

He meant it is a low quality but easy to consume product

gotcha see i can understand that and like i said i eat at mcdonalds sometimes during my lunch break at work. Do i like mcdonalds because they have good quality food, no. I like them because food is good enough to each and they fast not the best but convinient.

This seems like a good thread to post my genesis vs gaw comparisons. I signed up with both of them 4-5 days ago around the same time. I bought a 2 MH with Genesis and a 1 MH with GAW to compare them before I spent some real money. Genesis is giving me around 8 cents a day and ive got a total of 40 cents from them in this time. I expected this.

GAW has been far worse. FAR WORSE. in the 4-5 days I have been with them I have 2 cents total. Not only that but the fees from GAW are eating away ALL of my profits. check these GAW payouts

BTC Payout
    0.00020793 BTC
Maintenance Fee
    -0.00020792 BTC

That is a huge problem. fees are taking the profits. I did not signup for that and I dont expect GAW to get any better. While genesis payments have decreased a tad they are still way better. I have not tried any other cloud mining companies yet. I was going to try a few more but after my experience with GAW i just dont know.

It is smart to start very small to see how much you can get. Cheap Ghs, safe company and low maintenance fees is the winning combination but if the company is well established you will get higher prices

-snip-
If you're all about design, check out the new hashbase.
https://i.imgur.com/RREGdr7.jpg

That is why you gotta try www.cloudmining.website (0.001 BTC/Ghs), www.cloudminer.io (0.0014 BTC/Ghs), www.hashie.io (4.59 USD/Ghs) etc. where u can actually have some profit.

Hi,

I think cloud mining can be a good option as you don't have to buy the expensive hardware and without electricity cost.

At http://us.btcminer4you.com/free-bitcoin-mining.html you can try cloud mining for free. I have checked this out and nice daily payments so I think this can be an option for people without the necessary hardware.

There is nothing for free in this world. It is probably attempt to gain customers to suck them dry later... It is not real offer imo.

i agree with you there is nothing free in this world even basic thins think oxygen are tanked up and sold granted those people need it. Then there is water will be bottled up and sold at high prices so i see what you are saying. The only problem is have to find right balance between low fees and good price with good service and reputation.

Hi,

I think cloud mining can be a good option as you don't have to buy the expensive hardware and without electricity cost.

At http://us.btcminer4you.com/free-bitcoin-mining.html you can try cloud mining for free. I have checked this out and nice daily payments so I think this can be an option for people without the necessary hardware.

Beware of a newbie whose only post recommends an obscure cloud mining site. There is a very good chance that it is a Ponzi scheme.

The red section of the above text reminds me of the following pic...

http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/thumbnails/1173598_565991453459100_1784985373_n.jpg

...and the green section leads me to Cloud Mining Website (http://www.cloudmining.website/?r=2130).

Forget Ponzi. I wont even click that bizarre link as it might be a malware.

After all, why would a company go through the trouble of setting up something that would generate passive profit and offer to give you some of that profit.  No company performs a service like that in the real world - only charities do.

What I don't like to see is new users arriving on these forums looking to get involved with cryptocurrency only to have a bad experience and then end up thinking the cryptocurrency world is full of scammers and cheaters.

This is true. Cryptocurrency world is full of scammers and cheaters.

This is not true. Millions of companies issue stocks and give some of their profit to stock holders.

But cloud mining customers are not stock holders, they are customers. There is a big difference. Stock holders get dividends because they are the company and all the profits belong to them.

so what is the deal with this site / service   https://scrypt.cc  . Is it for real or is it scam i see people say good thing i see the bad as with any product i suppose but dont really see much chat activity about it. I dont think 31 pages of chat in original forum for something started 10 months ago is a good thing lol. I am excited to consider like a Cex.io but for scrypt that would be awsome to be confirmed legit.

That is why you gotta try www.cloudmining.website (0.001 BTC/Ghs), www.cloudminer.io (0.0014 BTC/Ghs), www.hashie.io (4.59 USD/Ghs) etc. where u can actually have some profit.

Lower price with higher risks sometimes means a better chance to ROI. Cloudminer is very new but going strong; hashie is interesting if the price of BTC rises

I think we may see soon the a series of collapses of all that fake 'cloud hashing' services as tthe difficulty is going down.
Only the ones with true working miners will survive.

If the difficulty goes down and you have the hardware it is a good thing, do you mean that some cloud hashing companies are ponzis?

Nobody has mentioned AMHash yet.

It's ASICMiners cloud mining service so you can be sure it's not a ponzi.
1 Gh/s costs < 1.2mBTC
Maintenance fee of $0.00163 per Gh/s per day.
Contracts can be traded on Havelock.

Just a thought on this, but if the difficulty goes down, the ponzi would be unaffected as they are not dependent on the difficulty. They just payout with the money they took in, but are going to continue receiving contracts either way..

Just a thought on this, but if the difficulty goes down, the ponzi would be unaffected as they are not dependent on the difficulty. They just payout with the money they took in, but are going to continue receiving contracts either way..

I'm not sure whether OP checks this thread anymore. I think, these new 3 are to be included in OP's list...

Well... your contract is supposed to mine more when difficulty is dropping or at least it's rising at much slower rate. After a couple of months a ponzi runs out of bitcoin as they do not have the real hardware in their possession. So far we are at the beginning of this slowing/dropping difficulty so I believe the defaults of the ponzi schemes are just ahead of us. Let's see in a month or two.

Well there we have it ladies and gentleman the person who started this post has checked in. I do see they did not say anything just kinda posted so we would see them here. I have not checked the 1st page to see if they updated the list of good cloud mining sites and the ones weeded out to be scams

I'm still here.  Been busy with life.  I'll update the OP when I get a chance, but the main point of the thread was to serve as a warning rather than an advertisement for various cloud sites.  Anybody who has interest in buying these services is probably reading the last couple of pages of the thread anyways.
It is smart to start very small to see how much you can get. Cheap Ghs, safe company and low maintenance fees is the winning combination but if the company is well established you will get higher prices

Just a thought on this, but if the difficulty goes down, the ponzi would be unaffected as they are not dependent on the difficulty. They just payout with the money they took in, but are going to continue receiving contracts either way..

Hi, i have a small chart about the payout of three diferennt cloud mining bussines

i think it can help people, i´m updating this everyday and if someone have other payout data it will be interesting to add more Cloud mining providers

watamby.ovh (http://watamby.ovh)

Hi, i have a small chart about the payout of three diferennt cloud mining bussines

i think it can help people, i´m updating this everyday and if someone have other payout data it will be interesting to add more Cloud mining providers

watamby.ovh (http://watamby.ovh)

http://watamby.ovh/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/image.png

You only have Genesis, Hashie, Amhash maybe you could add cex.io and cloudminr

i personally dont think there is any need to add cex.io. Well maybe just for informational purpose since i think i can say safely cex.io is probably one of the most legit real companies been around for years, show you where they mining, fast support response normally less than 24 hours.

Hi, i have a small chart about the payout of three diferennt cloud mining bussines

i think it can help people, i´m updating this everyday and if someone have other payout data it will be interesting to add more Cloud mining providers

watamby.ovh (http://watamby.ovh)

You might like to improve your site with more information. www.cmmonitor.com has done a great job at ranking various cloud mining services. May like to use it as a reference.

but please, do not think that these two lists can be treated like a review which can be found in OP. Lists above that's just opinion of their author, nothing more.. In OP have a really professional article about Cloud Mining Services.

Hi, i have a small chart about the payout of three diferennt cloud mining bussines

i think it can help people, i´m updating this everyday and if someone have other payout data it will be interesting to add more Cloud mining providers

watamby.ovh (http://watamby.ovh)

You might like to improve your site with more information. www.cmmonitor.com has done a great job at ranking various cloud mining services. May like to use it as a reference.

New major players are missing in the OP. So, anyone going by that will have insufficient information to come to a conclusion.

You might like to improve your site with more information. www.cmmonitor.com has done a great job at ranking various cloud mining services. May like to use it as a reference.

That site a just a list of cloud miners (most of which will probably be ponzis) with the sites referral id in the links to the websites. Essentially, that site is just trying to cash in on referrals.

That site a just a list of cloud miners (most of which will probably be ponzis) with the sites referral id in the links to the websites. Essentially, that site is just trying to cash in on referrals.

My best advice for new users regarding cloud mining is to be very careful. Most, if not all, of these cloud mining sites are either scams or money losers.

Keep these in mind if you are considering cloud mining:

1. A cloud mining site is a prime opportunity for a Ponzi scheme. Customers pay a bunch of money up front and don't expect a profit for several months.
2. "Instant mining" sites don't make sense because the operator makes more money if they don't sell their hashing power to you.
3. The rising difficulty means your hash power will earn less and less over time.
4. Maintenance fees are usually more expensive than they seem. The maintenance fee could exceed your mining revenue in just a few months.
5. Cloud mining contracts that start in the future must be valued using the future difficulty, and not the current difficulty.

My best advice for new users regarding cloud mining is to be very careful. Most, if not all, of these cloud mining sites are either scams or money losers.

Keep these in mind if you are considering cloud mining:

1. A cloud mining site is a prime opportunity for a Ponzi scheme. Customers pay a bunch of money up front and don't expect a profit for several months.
2. "Instant mining" sites don't make sense because the operator makes more money if they don't sell their hashing power to you.
3. The rising difficulty means your hash power will earn less and less over time.
4. Maintenance fees are usually more expensive than they seem. The maintenance fee could exceed your mining revenue in just a few months.
5. Cloud mining contracts that start in the future must be valued using the future difficulty, and not the current difficulty.

lol that just makes it sad if the website is " trying to help " people make the right choices. Then they have a link to each site / store but they have referral ids in all the links so if you do sign up even if its bad they get credit for it. I tell you hard to find a site that gives reviews and they get nothing out of it.

Good advices.


The site offers a free service that you can chose not to use.

it is true they might offer free service to users but they themself benefit from it as others have said. Also we all know some neebies might see the sight as a 100% safe list and just jump on it without asking for any opinions or reading anywhere for any facts at all.  :'(  >:(  :-[

I would disagree on item 2. If you have peta-hashes of mining hardware, selling stock shares instead of selling hardware can make a good sense under certain circumstances.

In order for number 2 to be invalid the cloud mining company would need to sell the mining contract at a price that is positive NPV for the cloud mining company. One thing that factors into something's NPV is the discount rate, which may be different for the customer and the company, so something can be positive NPV for both the customer and the company (at least in theory)

i agree with what you saying to some extent, but then again you did say in theory so i guess we in the same pafe. I think we just have to wait and see what the future brings to this cloud mining services.  :)

Well another way to look at it is that the two of you (the buyer and the cloud mining company) could have different viewpoints as to how much difficulty will rise over the term of the contract. If your estimate/assumption is lower then that of the cloud mining company then you both could calculate that the transaction will be profitable for both of you

thats why i tend to look for cloud mining that offers lifetime contracts or at the least 5 years plus. I dont do that 6 month 1 year or 2 years cause i dont see profit period.

thats why i tend to look for cloud mining that offers lifetime contracts or at the least 5 years plus. I dont do that 6 month 1 year or 2 years cause i dont see profit period.

Hashie (https://hashie.co/t?p=30324&v=0b2) is a new cloud mining service by ASICMiner and Rockminer, and you can claim 10 GH free (Limited time only) when you signup :)  

ASICMiner has a good reputation in the Bitcoin world, and the price per GHs on  Hashie (https://hashie.co/t?p=30324&v=0b2) is the cheapest!

Stop lying >:(

1. Hashie is not at all a service by ASICMiner and Rockminer. They started out saying they have hash power. Now they are AM hash reseller.

2. Hashie is not the cheapest in any way. The cheapest is cloudmining.website offering 0.001BTC/Ghs.

That could be a mistake. 99% of the income will be received in the first year (the actual time depends on the rise in difficulty). And if you are paying a maintenance fee, it could exceed your income in just a few months. If you are paying extra for those additional 4 years, you are throwing away money.

Hashie (https://hashie.co/t?p=30324&v=0b2) is a new cloud mining service by ASICMiner and Rockminer, and you can claim 10 GH free (Limited time only) when you signup :)  

ASICMiner has a good reputation in the Bitcoin world, and the price per GHs on  Hashie (https://hashie.co/t?p=30324&v=0b2) is the cheapest!

Stop lying >:(

1. Hashie is not at all a service by ASICMiner and Rockminer. They started out saying they have hash power. Now they are AM hash reseller.

2. Hashie is not the cheapest in any way. The cheapest is cloudmining.website offering 0.001BTC/Ghs.

A lot of companies are trying to get new customers and new contracts, it is a growing market but having a cloud mining operation is very hard and you have small margin.

5years contract should not cost much to the cloudmining company compared to a 2years contract since there will probably be no revenue after maintenance fee after 2years

Well companies like pbmining include the maintenance fee in the price of the contract, so they are effectively "short" on the price of electricity. If electric costs were to go up a lot then the cloud mining provider could end up loosing a lot of money, even if the miners are only making a little bit of mining revenue.

Anyone some experience with Cointellect (http://cointellect.com/)? I read a lot that it is fake, but I bought a starters contract and receive my daily €€.

Anyone some experience with Cointellect (http://cointellect.com/)? I read a lot that it is fake, but I bought a starters contract and receive my daily €€.

Most of the time, its all about how long will you be paid till they run away.
If you were like in the first few people to buy a contract, then maybe you have a chance.

Pyramid schemes seem to work until they collapse; they don't say they are a pyramid scheme but it is usually obvious if you study the scheme carefully.

Who gives a shit if it's a ponzi or not as long as it's paying out?

Who gives a shit if it's a ponzi or not as long as it's paying out?

Making nice coin on ltcgear...been around for over a year now...

It matters if something is a ponzi because a ponzi will eventually stop paying out well before it would be expected payouts to stop. It also does not matter if a ponzi is paying out today because it is very well possible that the payouts could stop the very next day and a new investor could end up with nothing

Its a pyramid game, whoever start first win. Hopefully you would ROI before they run away....

It matters if something is a ponzi because a ponzi will eventually stop paying out well before it would be expected payouts to stop. It also does not matter if a ponzi is paying out today because it is very well possible that the payouts could stop the very next day and a new investor could end up with nothing

Purely out of ROI perspective, LTCgear is the way to go ;D

Guys, stop hiding your referral spam in obfuscated links. They've been removed but consider this a warning.

i was about to say i dont see any ref links on posts but i noticed you mentioned removed them. Now it makes sense to what puppet was responding to i was trying to see who they had quoted lol. On a side note do we have any information or personal experience with the cryptomine cloud service?

By the Way the new price for cloudminr is 0.0013/GHS so you should change your signature :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=854072.0  ;)

And despite claiming they have no hidden fees, they're only paying out 78% of what they should be. Have a look at a legit cloud mining service such as AMhash. Have a look at the information they provide (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=882653.msg). See how they do have fees and they are precisely stated?

+17% on a 50GHS bought November 16 : 16-11-2014   50 GH/s    0.00926776 BTC in 18-19 days gives you 80%+ of the expected revenue at current's difficulty when the last difficulty was slightly higher.

On cex.io 50GHS would have cost 0.105$ x 50GHS x 19/30 = 3,325$=0.00875 for 1BTC=380$ so a net revenue of 0.011-0.00875=0.00225

Cloudminr is smaller so subject to luck but ends up giving 4.1 times more than cex.io for 50GHS on the last 18 days in my calculation.

Irrelevant. Cloudminr claim they have no fees so why are you only being paid 80% of what you should be getting? They have no problems lying to you about payments, so what makes you think they won't just run away with the money? What makes you think they have any miners at all? They've already proven they're dishonest.

Thats pretty good point.

A operator can just vanish at any point in time, regardless and decide when to close up shop. That same rule of thumb goes to all cloud services.. which most people already ignore though, so whatevers. lol.

Nice guide for newbie as me. Now i choose GAW/Zen mining with 0.06BTC contract :). tks u so much

Actually if you look on the prices of GH/s across the board  in the last 3-4 weeks(excluding CEX of course) you made profit and can sell at the same prices. however the prices actually went up as diff dropped!

Actually if you look on the prices of GH/s across the board  in the last 3-4 weeks(excluding CEX of course) you made profit and can sell at the same prices. however the prices actually went up as diff dropped!

Hello I am Hommero and I have big Bitcoin farming. They need watering right now to grow but pay me $50 and I'll sell you one plant. In two years you will get your $50 back guaranteed. Plus you will need to keep upgrading plant, so really you pay me more and so if you upgrade your $50 hashish to 70 doll hair hashish I can promise you little over 2 1/2 years. Wow what a great schema please refer your friends and get free Bitcoin hashish plant.

- Hommero

http://behindmlm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/ponzi-roi-digital-generation.jpg

mathematically - If thats ponzi -  it will survive few years ..

some people say it is better to buy bitcoin rather than mining it. and others say mining is still profitable.

some people say it is better to buy bitcoin rather than mining it. and others say mining is still profitable.

If you are in Asia where the cost of mining is almost next to nothing, and have the mining hardware, then it is definitely better to go for mining.
But at the current price, there are lot of uncertainities, and might not be adviced to start mining at this stage.

Correct. Mining runs in cycles, now we see that the dynamics of the difficulty fluctuates so it is safe to say that those people who purchased GH/s a month or two ago will have ROI or it is very likely they will get ROI. 3-4 weeks ago you could buy GH/s for as low as 0.0011BTC. Now they are trading at 0.0013. I am sure that the price will not drop significantly in the next 1-2 weeks as diff is still fluctuating and at the moment is poised to go down. We may see a very small decrease in diff in coming weeks but for the miners it very good! It is better than the flat line isn't it? If in this period of lower difficulty a spike in price of bitcoin occurs costs of hashing power will drop to a few % as it was in November last year. And you can be sure that at some stage it will happen.

In this climat, cloudmining can bring you great return if you chose the correct company to invest with.

GHS at 0.0015 and lower will likely ROI if the maintenance costs of the company is low.

Can you link me to cloudminer.io's maintenance costs?

What fees do you have?
We have a no fee policy.
For any changes we will notify everyone through our website and on Bitcointalk forums.

https://cloudminr.io/faq/

At cex : 0.107$/GHS/month and the price on the market is 0.0016

1 GHS is expected to  mine 0.00008799BTC/week so 1257s/day. 800/GH/day is good. About the same rate at cloudminr.

 What fees do you have?
We have a no fee policy.
For any changes we will notify everyone through our website and on Bitcointalk forums.

https://cloudminr.io/faq/

At cex : 0.107$/GHS/month and the price on the market is 0.0016

Correct. Mining runs in cycles, now we see that the dynamics of the difficulty fluctuates so it is safe to say that those people who purchased GH/s a month or two ago will have ROI or it is very likely they will get ROI. 3-4 weeks ago you could buy GH/s for as low as 0.0011BTC. Now they are trading at 0.0013. I am sure that the price will not drop significantly in the next 1-2 weeks as diff is still fluctuating and at the moment is poised to go down. We may see a very small decrease in diff in coming weeks but for the miners it very good! It is better than the flat line isn't it? If in this period of lower difficulty a spike in price of bitcoin occurs costs of hashing power will drop to a few % as it was in November last year. And you can be sure that at some stage it will happen.

(I assume that you are talking about cex/ghash on the above)

While this may be true, you still need to factor in the cost of electricity/maintenance which is almost always priced in dollars (as they are paid for in terms of dollars). If the exchange rate falls more then the difficulty then you could still potentially see a decline in net revenue as the electricity costs eats away are a greater share of mining revenue).

if they have no fees then how do they make profit to stay in business?

or do they have other methods of making up for that?

No way I do not believe in 0.0011/GH/s in VIP offer and 9% referrals. I think it is scam.

So cloudmining.website is scam as well,

Thats the only part you did get right :)

If I achieve ROI. It will be a scam?

Yes, of course. It will just be a somewhat successful scam to survive that long.
Or do you think anyone that ROId with pirate is proof it was no scam?

Yep you have right

Get used to it.

what i am getting used to is diff drop lol i see it dropping again to negative  8)  ;D  ;)

So you say that someone is a scammer because he sells at a low price?

So cloudmining.website is scam as well, because price there is 0.01 BTC/GHS.. And when price is 0.013 that is not scam?

Exactly this is what I think. Can you sell your shares or get off of it in any way?

0.0013/gh is a reasonable market price I would say. It may bring ROI in BTC provided you buy the hashing power early enough and that diff will be dropping to the point of the BTC price going up sharply. I think buying GH/s now is a very safe bet.

So PBmining saga finally has reached its destination... lots of shit ahead of us...

cloudmining.website is an obvious scam as well. Same cloudminr.io. We will see those ponzi/fractonal mining services dropping like flies with diff going down.

Yeah rub it in, why dont you..
:)

We will see.. But in longer term can happen that trustworthy services will fall as well. Maybe even Cex.io. And thinking like this can be wrong. But to find out we must wait.. 

We will see.. But in longer term can happen that trustworthy services will fall as well. Maybe even Cex.io. And thinking like this can be wrong. But to find out we must wait.. 

I would somewhat doubt that cex will ever turn scam. They have essentially proven that they have physical hardware that backs the GH/s that is for sale. Their identity is somewhat less hidden by the fact that some people have received physical miners for their GH/s. Also they are expanding into other markets (for example becoming an exchange) which gives them alternate ways to profit from acting honestly

if cex.io fell, it would be disastrous for all cloud mining services.. still there are people who rent their hardware .. but it seems that less and less ..hopefully that never happen..

CEX can't fall. They can only stop paying due to high maintenance fees but it is very unlikely.

Of course they can fail. That doesn't mean they're a scam, but like any business there's non-zero chance that they will go bankrupt and the customers will be left holding the bag. Only bankers get to work for companies too big to fail.

That being said, given their business model I don't think it's very likely they will fail.

Of course they can fail. That doesn't mean they're a scam, but like any business there's non-zero chance that they will go bankrupt and the customers will be left holding the bag. Only bankers get to work for companies too big to fail.

That being said, given their business model I don't think it's very likely they will fail.

So it is almost impossible to find the line between business and simply scam  :D

No, not really. The guy selling $3000 speakers out of the back of a white van for only $500 is a scam. BestBuy.com is not a scam. That doesn't mean that if I place an order on BestBuy they couldn't go into receivership before it ships and I'm left in the cold without my awesome new speakers. It's not likely, but not impossible.

No, not really. The guy selling $3000 speakers out of the back of a white van for only $500 is a scam. BestBuy.com is not a scam. That doesn't mean that if I place an order on BestBuy they couldn't go into receivership before it ships and I'm left in the cold without my awesome new speakers. It's not likely, but not impossible.

lol if you buy $3000 speakers from back of a white van from some dude who is all twitching for $500 with no bar code numbers. I would assume they are stolen but if i choose to buy them then risk on me

Well said i agree to that but lets hope nothing like this happens to this or anyother company i hate seeing people out of work due to layoffs and so forth   :'(

You have to study the business and consider the risk/reward ratio : if you can double up but the risk of failure is 10% it's still a good bet.

First of all, its an absolutely loathable bet,  if you know what it is you are doing: betting the scam will get enough victims for you to get a few crumbs of the loot.
Secondly, its not a good bet, its a stupid bet. AFAIK, even the largest and longest running mining ponzi (pb) didnt come close to doubling the investment of even the earliest investors. Your chances of doubling with the current flock of scams, like the one you tout in your signature is 0. The chance of failure is 100%.

First of all, its an absolutely loathable bet,  if you know what it is you are doing: betting the scam will get enough victims for you to get a few crumbs of the loot.
Secondly, its not a good bet, its a stupid bet. AFAIK, even the largest and longest running mining ponzi (pb) didnt come close to doubling the investment of even the earliest investors. Your chances of doubling with the current flock of scams, like the one you tout in your signature is 0. The chance of failure is 100%.

You still do not know for sure that a potential ponzi is actually a ponzi so your argument is invalid.

You need to look at a contract in it's entirety, including both risk the other side of the contract will not fulfill their obligations as well as the cost of the contract, and the potential reward if the other side does follow through.

You need to look at a contract in it's entirety, including both risk the other side of the contract will not fulfill their obligations as well as the cost of the contract, and the potential reward if the other side does follow through.

You have to study the business and consider the risk/reward ratio : if you can double up but the risk of failure is 10% it's still a good bet.
Cex.io is strong but has high costs, they are not competitive anymore. The new cloudmining sites are unknown but offer great prices and low maintenance costs, your choice!

I simply cannot imagine a scenario of CEX tripping belly up. What could happen? Alien invasion? An earthquake? A meteorite?
Even if the price of GH/s falls to zero they do not care because they charge for the maintenance costs. At some stage they will just turn off the miners but in this production cycle the old miners will be replaced by the new ones with better GH/s vs costs of electricity ratio. They can prolong this game as long as there are miners in existence and people willing to buy more hashing power at better prices. Pricewise they are fary ahead of any competition and they are selling very expensive GH/s with very expensive maintenance fees. For this money they can have cutting edge technology solar powered DC with dirt cheap miners.
That's why I think CEX is well and far from falling.

cex has solar power for the miners? If this is true that is so awesome alternative energy powering the alternative $$$$ i like the ring of that. If cex would cut maint fees by 50% of what they are now i think people would be all over them in a heart beat. I know i for sure would invest more in them maybe a whole 1 or 2 btc lol dont laugh im poor i know  :'(