Bitcoin Forum

For anybody that's heard of Esoteric Investments, its apparently another hyip, however this one is the first i've come across that's claimed to be based out of the United States.

So i asked some questions to their support staff and attained the following response:

------------------------------------------

Support @ Oct 19, 2014 05:32 AM

Al,

1) Esoteric Investments, LLC was founded and owned by Glenn Crystal and Daniel Pace.

2) Our registration is currently 3104 River Road Point Pleasant NJ, 08742.

3) We are NOT currently licensed and as such do not operate with USD at the moment. We do not make any claims or allege in anyway to have any licensing or accreditations at the moment. We are in the process of building our company and applying for the necessary licenses as we expand.

4) I will get you a # on Monday to get in touch with our team. We have also decided to get a 1 800 support line next week due to the number of people that have requested phone support.

5) Our team does not perform in High Frequency/Arbitrage based trading as we find those markets to be extremely high risk with very low ROI. If you have not had a chance to yet, please take a look at our September Doge Trading Example. (Info -> Trading Example)

Our team spends the majority of time analyzing markets, reading news, and talking with the development teams/community of coins that look appealing to trade. Our trading model is to find coins that are signifigantly undervalued and have a very high potential to at least double in value within a few days/weeks, while having a very stable "floor price". Combined with a Stop-Loss of 10% maximum, our team is able to ensure our good trades far out way any bad trades made. We are going to be releasing a more in depth explanation of our trading process next week.

Our Founder Glenn Crystal has been developing Software for over 10 years and has developed many tools that give our team a huge advantage over the average Crypto-Trader. We will be releasing over the next week more in depth details of all our business workings including our business model, payout model, and trading strategy.

If there is anything else I can help you with let me know.


Esoteric Investments Support

------------------------------------------

If you guys can think of anything else for me to ask them let me know.

if you think its worth taking them for a test run, i would say only go for the short term (their 90-day plan), and even if they're still around after 90 days, i wouldn't invest further.

[Site link in signature lines of my posts]

Some further information regarding the owner of the company:

10/21/2014 Free people search and contact details for Glenn S Crystal | Whitepages

http://www.whitepages.com/name/Glenn-S-Crystal/Point-Pleasant-Boro-NJ/731j7q9 1/1

Glenn S Crystal

Age:
18-24

Phone numbers
732-899-7911
732-899-7242

Address
3104 River Rd Point Pleasant Boro, NJ 08742-2163

Why start a new thread?
There's one already going with details of how their management have already been on here shilling with a sock puppet account.
Why should we ask you to ask them questions?
Aren't referral ref posts just spam?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=822284.0

the other thread has a referral ref link in the post...didn't seem anybody had an issue with it.

and i wasn't aware of that thread.

https://www.esotericinvestments.com/pr/oct-22-2014.php

update on operations!


My first payouts>>>

https://i.imgur.com/G5Kei5j.jpg

for those that wish to join and support my efforts to get real information about the company to the public, join up here

https://www.esotericinvestments.com/?refid=55 (https://www.esotericinvestments.com/?refid=55)

SCAM/PONZI/HYIP, please stay away!
Read this thread carefully!

It's just another bitcoin-trader.biz. They were also "legit" till they ran with investors money, but then its too late.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tpnhz-lxqQKydWjGuEBcfo2hhYURlD8jAc-HtcOHLDacqTVz5ouKkNQU5DvFN3O-b9R7xwkPBTZVLW44/view?usp=sharing
 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tpnhz-lxqQKydWjGuEBcfo2hhYURlD8jAc-HtcOHLDacqTVz5ouKkNQU5DvFN3O-b9R7xwkPBTZVLW44/view?usp=sharing)


From my account, my shares and earnings to date!

The site also just added a new chatbox today! we can now talk amongst the members and the company owner!

The settings page has been update, you can change your email and chatbox user name!

Securities laws don't magically go away if you are soliciting investments in something other then USD. Even if they are legit, this is backwards thinking. You cannot just open up shop and worry about regulations later.

You fool! There is still no proof that Bitcoin Trader was doing anything wrong. They might got robbed whatever, I don't know - but stop this witchhunt. Nobody is guilty until proven otherwise.

Actually there are NO security laws yet for entities that are using bitcoin and other crytpo currencies only.

Thank you to those that signed up!

My convo today with Deej on the Eso Chatbox


(10:58:33 AM)  Big Deej: Our plan is this week to get more traffic and active users on the site so we can launch the gaming side we have been developing
(10:58:45 AM)  Digicoinz: nice
(10:58:46 AM)  Digicoinz:
(10:58:48 AM)  Digicoinz: game on!
(10:58:53 AM)  Big Deej: Should add some excitement to everything and provide an alternative revenue stream for the pool and affiliates
(10:59:05 AM)  Big Deej: we are going to pay 50% of our earnings on games to affiliates
(10:59:12 AM)  Big Deej: on referrals that play games
(10:59:27 AM)  Digicoinz: jeez
(10:59:30 AM)  Big Deej: And they are non house risk games
(10:59:34 AM)  Digicoinz: a lil generous there
(10:59:37 AM)  Big Deej: So you don't play against us
(10:59:53 AM)  Big Deej: We aren't risking the bets against the players so its worth the commission
(11:00:02 AM)  Digicoinz: cool
(11:00:04 AM)  Digicoinz: :)
(11:00:06 AM)  Big Deej: My goal isn't just to make myself rich but to build a network of people who become rich with me
(11:00:16 AM)  Digicoinz: right on!

Ask Trendon Shavers how well that line worked for him.

keyser you have it confused between, operating with US dollars, and operating a ponzi. 

Eso is strictly only operating with Bitcoins (no licensing/regulation required at this time in the US)

Again please read their latest site update : https://www.esotericinvestments.com/pr/oct-22-2014.php



Please refrain from posting information that isn't accurate to try defaming this company.

thank you have a nice day!

Trendon Shavers (PirateAt40) and his BTCST also operated solely using Bitcoins.

Also, BTC-TC, an exchange for stocks of Bitcoin-securities also operated only with Bitcoins, yet the SEC shut them down hard.

So no matter if the operator is honourable (BTC-TC allowed users to withdraw their funds and arranged their shutdown as gracefully as possible considering the circumstances) or shady (BTCST was a clear Ponzi-scheme, taking millions of USD worth of BTC at the then much lower exchange rates), if you try to run your stuff in the US without a license, sooner or later some three-letter-agency will come busting down your door.

Esoteric will be adding a feature that you will be able to confirm your BTC funds in your account by seeing them in the wallet from the blockchain!   8)

^ This, the claim on their site is 100% inaccurate.

The Court further found that, even as he publicly denied the Ponzi scheme on the Bitcoin Forum, Shavers knowingly and intentionally operated BTCST as a sham and a Ponzi scheme, and repeatedly made materially false and misleading representations to BTCST investors and potential investors concerning the use of their bitcoins, how he would generate the promised returns, and the safety of their investments.

source - http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/2014/lr23090.htm

Please show me keyser where this has happened with Eso

How can they be using your funds to trade and make a profit if you can see the funds sitting there in a wallet?

Because, there will be a wallet that will contain your btc (not in shares), the used btcs (bought shares) will be up on the wallets at the exchanges where the trading is happening.

Trendon Shavers tried saying "Bitcoin is not money" to the SEC, but failed.

http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.VEqG8_nF8bM (http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.VEqG8_nF8bM)
https://www.scribd.com/doc/158943320/SEC-v-Shavers-August-6 (https://www.scribd.com/doc/158943320/SEC-v-Shavers-August-6)

Just a fool will believe their hacker story.
- They still posted results after they got hacked
- "We got hacked" is the new blind excuse
- They deleted user information
- They took of their webpage
- A lot of other arguments I'm sure you already read in the bitcoin-trader.biz thread.

Guys, be informed that Digicoinz and sunny1 pushes that shit for just one reason: They want to cash out after 120 days. This will happen with other investors money only. This is how a ponzi/HYIP works.

 "Shavers also diverted investors’ Bitcoin for day trading in his account on a Bitcoin currency exchange, and exchanged investors’ Bitcoin for U.S. dollars to pay his personal expenses."

That's where sec comes in. Eso isn't doing this. furthermore, shavers was lying about his business operations. And at this point in time, Eso hasn't given us any reason to even speculate this.

You can cashout everyday! why 120? and where did you get that arbitrary number from?

Seriously, why you Bitchin about being able to make money? It's a doggy dog world out there, ppl do what they gotta do sometimes to make a buck.

The fact you're even on this forum, is assumable that you use any method to make some extra cash.

so stop calling the kettle black

Regarding the investment its 90 days. You quoted me to quick.

Q. How long is a Trading Pool Share term?
A. Trading Pool Shares last for a term of 90 days.

Are you looking out for #2? do you honestly care about what happens in the end?

Why are you here? to make money or waste time watching others make it?

Strawman more please. While I firmly believe this is a ponzi, that was not my original statement.


See the below quote for further explanation.

I have no problem spending a little time and calling out ponzis. The people who promote them are perpetuating fraud, I'd rather not see that happen.

I smell high sock puppet activity in this thread. Digicoinz just registered one month ago to push that shit.

You will be able to verify on the blockchain your unused funds in the account. The BTC that you deposit in which you buy the shares with will be transferred to the exchanges' wallet to do the trading. I will follow up with Glenn and Dan as to them providing the exchanges' wallet address with our funds.

However you must also realize that Eso will be working with a lump sum of bitcoins stored in the company's shares when they do trading. So even when you see the wallet transactions from the exchange, it will be a large transfer of all the bitcoins being used, not every specific amount of bitcoin each investor funded.   

What could be done however is to show the transactions of bitcoins from the investor's wallet to the exchanges and back.

Update on company contact information.

The owner Dan Pace's contact number:

732-903-8379 (google voice)

Hey all

Wallet addresses are coming to verify funds are in fact there. The wallets that will be made public are for the profit reserves pool and account credits. The majority trading fund is kept in several wallets of our own and exchanges that we change periodically, so displaying those wallets would be a hassle, and we see as a possible liability to our trading strategies, and targets us for hackers more and more as the pool will grow. So the trading pool itself will not be view-able from the blockchain. But with some mathematics you could tell the size of it we are just keeping all aspects of that fund as much off the internet as possible.

Trading Bitcoin is property for the securities and exchange commission. As when you exchange the coin you exchange it for the coin, not a security that says you own the coin, I actually have it in my wallet to use for purchases or to sell it for something else. Crypto currency is like trading cards you wouldn't need a license to trade a babe ruth rookie card for 1000 crappy cards of no name players regardless if the babe ruth card was yours or a trading card exchange client.

Shavers bought and sold bitcoin for USD which requires money transmitter regulations, and he knowingly ran a ponzi scheme. We do not trade any investor funds for USD only profits that are taken off the top for our cut to pay ourselves and expenses for the company of which some still remains in bitcoin since, we like Bitcoin. Also as we're not knowingly running a ponzi scheme we do not really need to worry about Shavers.

You don't need a license to trade Bitcoin, correct. You do need a license if you do so with other peoples money. Seeking investments for an unregistered security is not something the SEC is a big fan of.

And that is completely ignoring the big question of whether the entire operation is actually doing what it claims to do. For which no evidence whatsoever has been presented.

In the Shavers case, all transactions between investors and Shavers were solely in bitcoin. His supposed business was buying and selling bitcoins for USD, but these transactions did not involve investors. You should really review more about the Shavers case and why it is relevant to your "business".

A couple of excerpts from https://www.scribd.com/doc/158943320/SEC-v-Shavers-August-6 (https://www.scribd.com/doc/158943320/SEC-v-Shavers-August-6):



So why do securities laws not apply to you?

Esoteric isn't holding Fiat currency, or dealing in fiat transactions.  Bitcoin doesn't fall under this. that's what you keep missing about the shavers case. he was dealing in transactions with actual US dollars. Esoteric IS NOT. and the trading is occuring on exchanges not operated by Esoteric, albeit not applicable to them.

understand?

Re-read what I wrote. In both the Shavers case and in Esoteric's, they were/are soliciting investments in bitcoin and bitcoin only. In Shavers case, courts determined that bitcoin can be used as money and the bitcoin denominated investments can be classified as securities under the SEC. Shavers purported business activity is largely irrelevant. If you do not understand what constitutes a security in the eyes of the SEC, please do your own research.

So the question again is, why does Esoteric think securities laws do not apply?

Rannasha
What would you like to see from us to give proof of our trading. I admit this is the weakest area that we have for transparency as we can't show you trading account information or current coins and open orders being traded as that may screw up our trading and as a result the pool. All we have been able to show is the process of coins we did trade like doge that we have showed.



Keyser Soze
So America; FED says bitcoin is not a currency, IRS taxes it like a commodity, SEC claims it is a property investment, while still being a form of money to the judiciary. Every branch of government has a different stance on this thing wtf. Love this country...

Keyser Soze we'll have to address that in some way to abide by the law. As you probably know and see above the USA doesn't make it easy to understand how and I'm sure they don't make it cheap to do so.

As of the last SEC publication concerning bitcoin it was being deemed as property, like the IRS has it, that would be invested in us to buy and sell to make more of that property, not money, so we have been trying to comply with that idea as our bare minimum amount of regulations till we are able to afford registrations for the whole thing starting with SEC accreditation up to FINcen. Seeing as how the shavers case was a year before this last publication maybe the regulation is different now, wouldn't get shavers out of jail as he was running a blatant ponzi scheme so we would't have heard anything about an appeals case in the news as he got what he deserved for being a scam regardless of bitcoin being money or not for investments.

In a few months regulations wont be of any concern so wait patiently and stay un-involved in the pool if you want till we have them. In the meantime we are seeking advice from people more attuned to the legalities then us. If ceasing trading till we have certification is necessary then that is what we will do if not then we will get those certification in due time to expand. We'll be sure to update everyone on either outcome within the coming weeks to month with a statement from the legal adviser we'd meet with. Sadly hard to find a good bitcoin lawyer in NJ or anywhere, and don't want to trust a regular business lawyer as I'm sure they'll tell us what requires the most to pay to them, and not what the actual stance is for the law on Bitcoin

Feel free to refer some Bitcoin attorneys to us.

This is a Ponzi scheme. It is a scam. If you invest in it, you will be aiding and abetting criminal activity, and you will probably lose your money.

I will be here to remind you what idiots you all are afterwards, too.

And I'll be here to throw it back in your face when its not >: )

Yeah I'm sure you will be. You'll be gone like the wind.

From the thread that Eatshiteric Investments bombed with their spam for this obvious Ponzi scheme:

You are a pathetic individual with no ambitions in life, just wanting to feed off of others successes. good luck with that.
 
and you don't have the balls to report them because you don't want to get discovered for your illegal activities : ))))

I agree.   The talk about having to hide trades is nonsense.  Even mutual funds in the states show all major holdings every quarter.   Places like this just want to get a large pool of BTC and then disappear.   

Obviously they had more important things to worry about than working on their transparency, as they just installed a chat box.

Why are you comparing conventional financial systems with bitcoin ?  Bitcoin was designed to get away from those archaic systems, to separate from the govt and suffocation of regulations.

but you idiots keep trying to push it that govt should be involved????

wtf...

seriously?...the chat is so that ppl like you can have live contact with the business owners and get your concerns and questions answered. secondly businesses have  teams working on different aspects of the company, this way multiple projects can be completed simultaneously.

where did you get your education? cause your not showing much intelligence.

1-800-GET-A-LIFE

It seems the chat is just you and Phantom talking shit about people. Very professional behaviour.

Hey everybody,

ANY "program" that offers you fixed returns of this magnitude IS A SCAM! They have 100% all been scams, from Ponzi to Madoff to Esoteric Investments, and even if you don't lose your money you will be aiding and abetting criminal activity by sending these dickless bullshitters money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program

no, i'm stating an observation, ignorance and idiocy is rampant with ppl that make blatantly false accusations.

Well thank you, quarterly reports would be a good idea for transparency, of what has been bought and sold and what is still being held. I'm saying I can't show our open orders that are on the markets, with the largely manipulative game that trading is on the crypto exchanges showing your hand like that would surely screw you over. The holdings we have we can show though for your investor analysis every quarter maybe monthly since crypto is a hell of a lot faster then traditional markets.

But yea thanks expect to see something come of that dyask.


For all the fudders, fud away but please if you come up with something useful to say, say it. We're listening and looking for them. Thats what I
d like to see from this thread. If you could make a legitimate bitcoin management firm to handle bitcoin investments to trade on crypto currency markets how would you do it? That's what we're doing and for anyone that doesn't know, the path to do it is not set in stone, not even a dirt road at this point in time.

Why are you calling me an idiot?   You are the one pushing a company that can't possibly live up the claims being made.   

Alright I'll remove my negative trust and we will see what happens. 

not saying you, but to the ones that are pushing to make something intended for the people by the people without government intrusion.

That's a little premature, don't you think? Look, he's obviously a Ponzi scammer. Why pretend otherwise?

What SEC publication are you referring to? Surely the SEC wouldn't want to give up their authority over some investments just because they are denominated in a cryptocurrency instead of traditional currency.

Have you read the court document I linked and referenced (https://www.scribd.com/doc/158943320/SEC-v-Shavers-August-6)? It is a short four page read, but clearly describes the three qualifications of an investment contact (security) and how they applied to investments offered by Shavers. Using the same methodology, I cannot see a difference between your offerings and Shavers'.

You need to find the actual final judgment of that case. what you found is just an opinion, it doesn't have precedence in case-law.  This document was only the beginning of the case to pass the jurisdiction test. there would be many filings done after that, dismissals, rebuttals etc.

So please find the final judgment of the case that states what you are trying to point here.

Because I have not invested, so my claim isn't first hand.   I did invest in BTC-Arbs and after they went down I was did get my investment refunded without earnings.   But that doesn't have any weight over here. 

You are free to put up trust ratings yourself.   It is a nasty business so I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt.   

Your trust rating means more than mine.

And I urge you to reconsider seeing as how 100% of all guaranteed hyper return-on-investment schemes have ended poorly. The ones that haven't yet, will.

The fact is this: 5% a month = 80% a year = utter greed & ridiculousness

I actually meant to post this on the new page.

Today's Trading Pool Payout at 0.36% :)

Thank you to all that have joined, don't forget to check out the lottery section, no winners yet!

(site link at bottom)

I expect that if they keep pushing this tomatocage will jump in at some point.    In the meantime they have their right to be here on their own thread.

“Ponzi scheme operators often claim to have a tie to a new and emerging technology as a lure to potential victims,” said Lori J. Schock, Director of the SEC’s Office of Investor Education and Advocacy.  “Investors should understand that regardless of the type of investment, a promise of high returns with little or no risk is a classic warning sign of fraud.”

https://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.VEsnjPnF-h_

“Fraudsters are not beyond the reach of the SEC just because they use Bitcoin or another virtual currency to mislead investors and violate the federal securities laws,” said Andrew M. Calamari, Director of the SEC’s New York Regional Office.

Esoteric has made no such claims. try again.

face the fact, people will invest with them regardless what you try posting here. so good luck wasting your energy.

Everybody look at this>> trust comments on nutildah

User   Date   Risked BTC amount   Reference   Comments
NoNxt4me 0: -0 / +0(0)   2014-10-23   0.00000000      nutildah is part of the notorious cryptocurrency scam NXT
bluemeanie1 -4: -1 / +0(0)   2014-10-11   0.00000000   Reference   nutildah's NXTSCAM.ORG profile.
bluemeanie1 -4: -1 / +0(0)   2014-10-08   0.00000000   Reference   a thread about nutildah https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=816663.0
bluemeanie1 -4: -1 / +0(0)   2014-10-04   0.00000000   Reference   Nutildah falsely accused me of running a sock puppet account with no evidence.
bluemeanie1 -4: -1 / +0(0)   2014-10-03   0.00000000      nutildah is a 100% anonymous promoter for the notorious cryptocurrency scam, NXT.
kalenen 0: -0 / +0(0)   2014-09-11   0.00000000      To much trolling. He is bad for crypto in general.
IconicExpert 0: -0 / +0(0)   2014-09-09   0.00000000      This person posts false information and should not be trusted. Avoid him at any cost.
EFFV 0: -0 / +0(0)   2014-09-09   0.05000000      Prompt Payment! Thanks a ton!
Sent feedback

I don't know what you're so proud of.

IconicExpert and BlueMeanie are two known scam artists. The leaders of the forum have decided that neither their nor their sock puppets' opinions matter very much.

Thanks for not editing out the feedback from my one actual transaction:

ya i have some integrity, so yw for that. but its funny for a scammer to call a scammer a scammer hahaha

This is the publication I am referring to. http://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-bulletins/investoralertsia_bitcoin.html#.VEsX9_nF_Sc (http://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-bulletins/investoralertsia_bitcoin.html#.VEsX9_nF_Sc)

Yes, I read the opinion of the court, and see your point. In the last year though the federal reserve officially said that bitcoin is not currency, anyone in the bitcoin environment I'm sure heard that so not gonna bother finding a link. and this publication was brought up as well as the IRS officially saying bitcoin shall be treated as a commodity/property and not currency. This is the definition of a security http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/security (http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/security) a trade able note of some sort that stands for ownership of a piece of property be it a share in a company or a commodity. Our shares are not trade able like a mutual funds would be on the stock market, and the bitcoin exchanges do not transfer securities of different coins you get the actual coin. In a commodity market for say bananas you wont sell a single banana if you brought a whole hand there with you since those are securities. In crypto markets its only the actual bananas being traded for actual oranges, actual bitcoins for actual altcoins that you get immediate ownership of. So we are not exactly meeting the definition of exchanging securities.

We may be doing investment contracts but that would require bitcoin investments to be money which the entire federal government this year after that case has said they are not. So at this point with where regulation is in the US theres a disagreement between judicial systems (a year ago) and the legislature and executive branches. AKA we'll need a supreme court ruling on this one to know for sure to make it go one way or the other. The judiciary can't consider bitcoin investments as money while they consider any other form of bitcoin as not money.

Investors are giving us their property in hopes of us returning more of it back, not in hopes of raising its value, according to every financial US bureau. This interpretation of the law from this opinion would say they are giving their money to invest. Since the SEC has said it isn't money then the interpretation of the Securities and Exchange Act could be different and this opinion could possibly be appealed.

As I said there's some ambiguity here. Ambiguity that I don't think the legal minds of bitcointalk.org will clear up. So again either find me a bitcoin lawyer or wait for me to find one to see what the current idea is for this sort of work like I said Esoteric Investments has nothing to really base whats needed off of.

"The SEC investigation shows Shavers used new Bitcoin to repay the first investors, while diverting some of the old cryptocurrency to personal accounts stored at the defunct exchange Mt. Gox and using some of the funds to pay for rent, food and other personal expenses...Shavers, who lives in the state of Texas, guaranteed the safety of their investments and promised the clients he would generate revenue, which he never did."


Once again, Eso has not made any guaranteed claims or promises. so why do you keep posting information irrelevant to esoteric?

By the way I'm curious how many people have taken a look at our Twitter? We've had a presence in the bitcoin community for over half a year as one of the many twitter advisers of crypto trading. We're just the first ones to try to graduate up from advising to managing crypto trading. Back then no one called us a scam of any sort we were thanked multiple times for providing the tools and advice that we did. Now we offer a way to join us in those trades by offering deposits into our managed pool and that makes us a scam. Just wondering where is the logic behind it? or have none of you tried to research anything below face value.

Actually, they have:


This happened. Deal with it. You don't like it, next time open a moderated thread.

It seems like Phantom Trader should be wiser at 48 years of age.

https://twitter.com/PhantomTrade66

Banks gaurantee returns on CD's and monthly interest rates on checking/savings accounts.

so what's the problem?  You're just obsessed with Esoteric having a piece of paper stating they have the OK with SEC. That's the only thing that'll shut you up.

Fortunately I don't need to be as smart as him as living a lie constantly is difficult.

Not my thread and if it was I still wouldn't moderate it, let the fud come if I can't address it and its valid I want our investors to know. I'm not trying to hide anything more then we need for security.

and again that's not in the pool and it is 25 dollars a month for the minimum investment into the company. Go watch sharktank or read up on angel investing and you will sea that deal isn't even a large one for a startup investment. Many of them require to give up equity, and that is a lot more valuable to us then finding 25 dollars a month to pay an investor for the month.

And we're removing it from our homepage since it seems to be causing all of this confusion that we guarantee profit from our trading to pool members.

That is a personal twitter that I recently made and hardly even use. This is the one we Have been running since our start.

https://twitter.com/InvestEsoteric (https://twitter.com/InvestEsoteric)

Well I'm glad I could help you start to turn honest.

Somehow I still see you disappearing with a bunch of dumb peoples' money. Your name is already Phantom Trader, after all.

And your counterargument doesn't budge my personal opinion of you in the slightest, BTW.

bluemeanie1 -4: -1 / +0(0)   2014-10-11   0.00000000   Reference   nutildah's NXTSCAM.ORG profile.
bluemeanie1 -4: -1 / +0(0)   2014-10-08   0.00000000   Reference   a thread about nutildah https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=816663.0
bluemeanie1 -4: -1 / +0(0)   2014-10-04   0.00000000   Reference   Nutildah falsely accused me of running a sock puppet account with no evidence.
bluemeanie1 -4: -1 / +0(0)   2014-10-03   0.00000000      nutildah is a 100% anonymous promoter for the notorious cryptocurrency scam, NXT.
kalenen 0: -0 / +0(0)   2014-09-11   0.00000000      To much trolling. He is bad for crypto in general.

shall i repeat it again?
>>
and secondly, I do not operate nor am I an employee of or working in association with Esoteric Investments, LLC. So please retract your statement>>

Digicoinz 0: -0 / +0(0)   2014-10-25   0.00000000      left me negative feedback for pointing out that he was operating a Ponzi scheme, will not accept the fact that every program that offers consistently positive, significant returns is eventually exposed as a Ponzi.

I never said I'm operating a ponzi. you are a compulsive liar.

I know, I said it. You're misreading what I wrote. And if you did any research at all you would discover that both BlueMeanie and IconicExpert are known thieves in the altcoin community.

I had an epiphany about your friend Phantom Trader. He is a sociopath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy). He is biologically incapable of giving a shit about other people which allows him to lie so easily and unashamedly. He will be what he is forever.

You, on the other hand... There's still some hope for you. Times may be tough where you are but can't you hold out for something legit?

i don't believe in psychics or ppl that can "read" ppl, especially through the internet. you've only spoken with phantom from a business argument perspective, not as two mutual acquaintances. so again you're making assumptions. you say he lies, but you've shown now proof of that. you say he's a sociopath, again where's the proof, you have a mental examination done by a licensed psychologist?

If anything seems you are just delusional and throwing out everything you can in hopes someone will bite on your every word.

Do the right thing, sit back and just wait and see how this pans out.

You don't have to. You just have to believe in statistics.


Mmmmaybe. I have to see this thread in my Unreads every day now.

Esoteric isn't and hasn't become a statistic. Can't be said until it actually happens what you believe so much about them.

in the mean time, chill.

uhm wat you mean everyday in your unreads? you can take it out of your notification/watch list....

Actually it was a statistic the minute you guys mentioned fixed returns. Every single "investment plan" that has EVER offered fixed returns anywhere near what you're offering on this message board was eventually revealed to be a scam. Its a 100% certainty. 


Can't actually. It breaks sometimes. Trust me, I've tried.

the fixed returns was the USD investment. The trading pool is variable return, it can be 0% some days. and up to 2%, no guarantee


and I'm not offering anything, i'm just a customer of Esoteric not the employee. plz correct yourself.

Dashboard Page updated to have Referrals listed below Shares owned and deposits/withdrawals transactions!

https://www.esotericinvestments.com/pr/oct-22-2014.php
 (https://www.esotericinvestments.com/pr/oct-22-2014.php)
Update on Esoteric's Ops and Procedures 

I don't know if Eso is (or is not) a scheme; but currently they are instantly paying all my withdrawals.
Moreover, even if they become to be a ponzi, I can withdraw my money before the site break.

I assume you're just lying and hoping to pull in other victims so you can benefit from the ponzi, just like sunny1 and Digicoinz. However, the way to know for sure that it's a ponzi is that the site "breaks" and you can no longer withdraw any money. Ideally it's done in such a way that naive people will assume that it will be fixed again. This gives the scammer more time to remove evidence.

If you're so skeptical,

make an account and talk to the owners, they're in the live chat right now

Reading their lies wouldn't change anything, so that's a waste of time.

Try this on for size:

Esoteric's Whois Information:

http://who.godaddy.com/whoischeck.aspx?domain=ESOTERICINVESTMENTS.COM (http://who.godaddy.com/whoischeck.aspx?domain=ESOTERICINVESTMENTS.COM)

I've put a lot of effort (my own time and expense), to which I've been using defending their image on this forum.

I believe my work is worth the kind gesture for any newcomers to help me out and sign up under my referral to support my time to get out the information to prove this company is the real mccoy.


Esoteric will be adding full company address/name/#'s to their site, as well as links for their fb/twitter accounts as well.

Keep an eye out!


(ref link below my post) thank you!

Bitcoin-trader.biz did to same. No difference or reason why eso is legit.
It is still a ponzi pushed from a few users, thats it, nothing else.

No difference you say? Ok well prove your statement :)

Digicoinz, are u aware that you are promoting a PONZI/SCAM that will steal people's money ?

Are you aware you are making a claim without backing up your accusation with any physical evidence?

That's called libel isn't it?

I've proven everything i've said, why can't you?

There is nothing to prove.
We know the name, company address and they have/had a fb and tweeter account. The only difference is that they (eso) are located in the US instead of Panama. That fact has nothing to say or do you think there is no ponzi fraud in the US?

Nobody will offer that amount of interest without being fraudulant.

Anyone with a medium IQ knows its a SCAM like all the others.
U didnt prooven anything, u're just their puppet.

People, stop falling for "free money" schemes. There are NO SUCH THINGS !
This PONZI gives 1% day so they can last longer on the market, but in the end they will RUN AWAY WITH YOUR MONEY.

Be smart!

The problem is you don't have any experience in bitcoin. Try actually getting involved in it. I just made a 5% profit by myself in bitcoin trading in only a few minutes yesterday on cex.io.

so go tell your story to someone else.

And you are getting personal again. Reply to my comment!

About there being ponzi fraud in the US?   I never said there isn't. But why make assumptions, just because a company offers a nice return on an investment that you can also achieve on your own with the same bitcoin trading methods they're doing?

1. I have HUGE experience in Bitcoin and i say its a SCAM
2. I see you're getting this very personal that makes me think this is your site. Would u share your identity to big investors so they can see u are for real ?
3. If it aint your "company", u fight too much to prove a SCAM aint a SCAM when its clearly a SCAM

1. I doubt you do
2. no it's not my site, and yes I would, because I'd have nothing to hide whilst operating a legitimate service
3. And I fight for it, because I talk to the owner almost all day long in his chatroom on the website, and I"ve spoken with him over the phone., and they know their shit about cryptocurrency trading as well as the fact they will be posting information and features on the site that will prove their not operating as a ponzi.

So you should actually stop being prejudice open your mind a lil and actually go to the company (which you can officially visit them) and find out for yourself.

Cause right now all you are doing is pointing fingers and 3 of them are pointing back at you.

Difference between eso and bitcoin-trader.biz. What makes eso so legit in comparson to bitcoin-trader.biz?
Again: There is NO WAY somebody will pay you this amount of interest.

Hint: bitcoin-trader.biz where communicating very well too. A fraudster will always try to make you believe. Thats their "job". At the moment you are doing this job.

no actually they weren't, because they avoided me when i was trying to get actual proof of their "arbitrage" activities.

nobody really asked the right questions (that i know of).

Esoteric (dan and glenn) will be providing actual proof of where our money will be stored, and transactional histories through the blockchain when bitcoins are moved from the wallets to the exchanges, etc. As well as a plethora of information regarding trading activities in general and any other methods they might devise of to further profits with bitcoins (within legal limits).

They are making all the efforts to operate legitimately within the laws of the U.S., just give them some time to prove themselves..

Cause believe me, I will hunt them down if they turn out to be a scam (which as i've said they've done nothing to indicate otherwise at this time).

 

Lets start some preliminary doxing because we will need it. The whois records indicate 1840 Northwest Drive, Point Pleasant New Jersey.
That address is owned by Julia and Dominic Pace.
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Juliana-M-Pace/Pt-Pleasant-NJ/2jyd7bc
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Dominic-J-Pace/Pt-Pleasant-NJ/2jyd7ad

Note that Julia is listed as 60-64yr old, while Dominic is 30-34. If accurate, Dominic would most likely be her son, even though he co-owns the house:
http://njparcels.com/property/1525/354/3

There is no record of a Daniel at that address. I cant find anything useful on Dominic either, other than a radio license:
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=879240

Julia(na) runs a small accounting business:
http://www.jpaccounts.com/

Ive sent her an email asking who "Daniel" is and if she is aware of esoteric investments. Ill let you know if/when she replies.

You could call them too. Also when i spoke with Dan Pace over the phone, he told me they were looking at office space to rent. the location of jpaccounts may have multiple offices in the same building. Also being that Esoteric is new, the "internet" tends not to update records very quickly. And I've come across whitepages.com listing that were outdated. This occurred even with my own name/address.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but just dig deeper and be sure :) I let Dan know about your findings. He'll clear things up.

"will be" is not the same as "they did"
Transferring coins between wallets is not a good evidence for trading before we don't know the wallets owners.
And you did not come to the idea that this is just a small improvement to bitcoin-trader.biz to get investors money?

I'm sure he will, else it's a really bad prepared ponzi.

edit: there is a Daniel at that address:
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Daniel-L-Pace/Point-Pleasant-Boro-NJ/9w7jkva
Age: 18-24

and a debra too:
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Debra-T-Pace/Point-Pleasant-Boro-NJ/bi6c876

2 brothers and a sister, all living in with their parents still.

and this is I guess is (was?) the father or partner of julia:

David M Tompkins
http://www.whitepages.com/name/David-M-Tompkins/Point-Pleasant-Boro-NJ/6zmqsff

I would be lying if i said they did, why are you splitting hairs lol
And they can still show past transactions after the fact. god...

curious question, what makes you believe a bank can be trusted more with your money, when the U.S. govt's money has no value (the country's debt is higher then the money they can dish out to pay it back) That makes money worthless. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyV0OfU3-FU&list=WL&index=1 especially part 3-4 of the series.

and then tell me why you wouldn't rather deal in bitcoin, say fuck off to the government, and just reap the benefits, regardless the outcome. rule #1) Don't invest what you can't afford to lose, #2) Read Rule 1 #3) simply watch out for the signs of a potential scam and pull out all you can, and move on.

Too much drama people. If you don't like it, stay away from it, you'll never accomplish anything just making accusations, seriuosly nothing.

1. To assume that, there is not a single difference to bitcoin-trader.biz at the moment but you are fighting for eso that hard. Interesting...
2. You are really comparing a new private run company from some kids to the economic output of whole countries? That makes me laugh.
If the US files bankruptcy we will definitly have other problems than "worth of money" for sure.
3. One reason we have this sub-board is to warn other users and especially newbies from scam.

Dominic WB2PTV radio license is my father since you cared to check so deep as the ARRL I have one to KC2IJQ. Julia is my mother JP accounts is her self owned accounting practice. The other Dominic is also my brother (also has a radio license can't remember his call sign) and Juliana is my sister. Yes my mom is an accountant and I live with my family right now. She deals with people who lose money everyday from investments and some who have lost money in schemes like you all claim of me. Meaning if I were to be running one she would kill me and disown me as her son! So add that to the pile of evidence that I'm not running a ponzi scheme at Esoteric Investments. Now that you know my entire family(!) consult me or Glenn or come to our site, contact us through the site, post on bitcoin talk forum or send us a message on any social media platform, we have left dozens of opportunities to ask us anything for any of this stuff. We aren't hiding anywhere! Our personal families should not be brought into this for any reason and it is rude and uncalled for to have/do so when we have been so open and available. Glenn has also received a phone call at his home later in the evening disturbing his family. This is while we have a contact phone number right on our site and social medias. There is no reason for all of this digging and snooping around. If you have a question ask it we'll answer it's as simple as that.

As far as Debra goes she's possibly a typo or something no idea where white pages got her from unless that's my grandma's name who I hardly remember. and David Tompkins same story possibly a past resident but no relation to me.

Oh and Brother is moved out to Texas so White pages is behind. and I'm just out of college with a biochemistry degree with a political science minor as I'd like to have some involvement in world politics in the future from Rider university (need my diploma or are you gonna email my mom for it?) better things I could do with my time then try and run a ponzi scheme and ruin my future when that was inevitably found out as EVERY ponzi scheme is whether in the middle or the end. Doing that fresh out of college before I have my own car or house to ruin my credit reputation and just all around good standing for any future sort of political career. Yea that wouldn't be too bright and a good way to spend my tuition!

No; I don't.
I lost money with BT, it is ok if I recover my money with Eso, regardless they activity.
And Yes, currently they (Eso) are instantly paying all my withdrawals!

You can't judge me, and don't need to think if I am Lying or not.
Moreover I don't know these names. Most familiar to you.

Please, don't bother me, we can stop by here.

Difference between eso and bitcoin-trader.biz. What makes eso so legit in comparson to bitcoin-trader.biz?
Again: There is NO WAY somebody will pay you this amount of interest.

Hint: bitcoin-trader.biz where communicating very well too. A fraudster will always try to make you believe. Thats their "job". At the moment you are doing this job.
[/quote]

I've been wanting to say this for a while but hate bringing up Bitcoin trader in any conversation involving Esoteric Investments.


Closest thing we ever had to model our site and service after was bitcoin trader, which is why you see the HYIP payout model. because we modeled it from them not because we want to be seen as an HYIP or be seen as a scam, but because so many people seemed perfectly fine investing in them. Despite being a panamanian company that operated in the UK that had a pretty low profits margin from arbitrage and a simple exit strategy...disappear. They claimed to perform arbitrage that'd at most make ~1 percent daily and probly not on the amounts that they were supposedly moving. That seemed reasonable to many of you. We're trading with a large pool of money that we could potentially move markets daily if we wanted. We're just using the pool to get in on large movers like DOGE did and CANN did and several weed coins and URO to supply our payouts. These markets moved over 100% each. So I'm getting tired of hearing we can't perform those types of payouts in trading you can without a doubt, and the way it is set up is that when there are no more profits money then there's no payouts till there is. So we don’t even need to sustain those payouts! We take a cut off the top of profits when we can do payouts we get paid from this and have no reason to perform a scam. Another thing Bitcoin trader was lacking, no actual source of income for them or their employees. Least you know where ours is coming from. Plus we are in the US they track their investment fraud culprits to the end. You all have our addresses place of work names and so does the government with our LLC registration currently and more registrations to come. We've also offered anyone to pay us a visit and a video of us is coming in the next week so you can all see our faces.

So our payout model was chosen only because Bitcoin Trader got so big and trusted with it so seemed like a logical place to build from since it worked for them. Not knowing they were a scam or we'd have never modeled after them and done more a variable monthly thing based on our trading. But thats why we look like an HYIP. Our trading can potentially make trades multiple times a month of over 100% for the investment that got put into that coin. Hell of a lot more to be made than from arbing, so payouts make more sense then bitcoin trader. and again we're in the US we can't get up and disappear from the government or from you all, exit strategy is a hell of a lot more difficult. and the first thing we want to do is get accreditation anywhere we can in the states with FINcen and SEC, not host a bitcoin conference like a past favorite company of many of us. So where are our red flags that say we’re a scam besides our registrations.

Which by the way there was progress on that front we’ll be contacting this attorney for a consult come Monday when the offices open. http://www.lawyers.com/cherry-hill/new-jersey/Eric-D-Frank-32202041-a/ (http://www.lawyers.com/cherry-hill/new-jersey/Eric-D-Frank-32202041-a/)

What I'm saying is we look like we do because thats what you all seemed to like and want, and we had a way to provide it. Any one see the logic in our thinking there...

You all are just saying stuff just to say it. Very little substance on this thread now just accusations. We'll be able to prove ourselves with what we got given time, we don't need investments so stay un-invested if you don't trust us, and if you do start earning sooner.

PS if you all want us to lower the payouts to something more sustainable, even though sustainability has nothing to do with our payout model, that is fine it'd be more we can take off the top for ourselves ;) so let me know.

You already ruined all that by promoting and selling an unregistered security. So even if you were not planning to scam people (fat chance) or you thought you where clever by not running a ponzi, but instead incur 60% "trade losses" and then say 'sorry', it doesnt matter, you're already in deep doo doo. Your "because bitcoin" argument doesnt fly, its been refuted many times in court already.  eg:

http://www.communitycurrencieslaw.org/securities/

TLDR;  Bitcoin denominated securities are securities and subject to the same rules.

Ask your mom what the penalties are.

I agree with you! Anyway, Dan will speak to his lawyer tomorrow, as stated, and I am sure that counsel will advise him to halt the operation until such time all necessary licenses are aquired.

I always read "we will" and "we want"... you won't get any trust without an sustaibable audit. An audit that proofes your successful arbitrage activities to pay your customers interest. -> When can we expect this?
If you don't need any customers investments then it was a really bad decision to open your doors after bitcoin-trader.biz fiasco without any audit. If you want to gain some trust stop to take investors money NOW (you don't need it).

A registered company means nothing. No.1 lame excuse in crypto world is "we got hacked, we have to file bankruptsy". Happend several times and the hack was just an inside job.

BT had claimed they did an audit, but never actually shown proof of it. Yet ppl just assumed it was fact?

Again why so adamant about govt being involved? You trust the govt that much? You're pretty ignorant if you do.

Work for the state like I have and you'll find out its a f*d up system. There's no credibility just because a piece of paper says so. Even with govt certification, a business can be gone the very next day.

I trust this company because of its actions not a piece of paper.

Secondly would you please actually pay attention. In the very first post of this thread it is stated esoteric isn't performing any arbitrage trading. So stop thinking you're on the BT thread.

Thank you!

BT claimed they were hacked during audit. I don't believe there was any kind of audit, just a nice story. Nobody assumed a successful audit as a fact.

I'm talking about an audit done by a trustable independent company. There are several out their doing this as their everyday business.
Yep, I have more trust in govt than into this kind of private run startup company.

What actions? Their communication, their registered company, their names and where they live?
What I want to see are their daily results as a proof how they can pay this amount of interest every day + this fact audited.
We won't have any discussion if that was already done (no problem I think, because eso don't need investors money).

Yep, their method(s).

It's clear that this is your scam business and that you're not just some satisfied customer.

Just a nice story, NO PROOF. A scammer always wants to make you believe.
BT had a nice story too. ;)

And this is exactly, 100% the same as how BT operated. Why should we trust this one more than BT?

You can just take the chance too, right? Nobody says you have to do anything  :)

 new site update! Social links and contact # added!

Deej Trader @DeejTrader
Affiliates can now add Google Analytics Tracking to their account! Directions/Instructions coming stay tuned!

nobody will join your scam

People already have joined the company  ;D

Its not a company ... we all know that  ;)

Not getting sucked into your game ;)

I have been invested with Esoteric Investments since the very start. I am https://www.esotericinvestments.com/?refid=3 (https://www.esotericinvestments.com/?refid=3) which is actually one more than Glenn's partner Dan XD
Anyways, I have put in $100 when it started, and I have not once felt that my money would be lost. Glenn and I stay in contact every day and have become good friends and I feel I can trust him, just as you all should as well. But I can't force trust and it's something you're gonna have to find on your own.

Without proof the funds 'invested' are not being used to fund payouts, the only reasonable course of action is to stay far away from schemes like this.

That's absurd logic. Think about this....10 ppl invest, all their funds go into a cryptocurrency on the exchange, the coin(s) are bought then sold at the higher price for profit. Then the funds are placed back in the pool and a payout is calculated based on the amount of profits made. So collectively all the investors' funds are creating profit and by proxy funding the payouts.

How else would profit be made and paid??? From thin air!?

The entire financial system operates this way in the world, someone's money is used to pay someone else !

When u buy food at the store you're paying the cashiers managers distribution centers, etc, and the circle continues.

Money is constantly recycled through the system.

Same with wall street and anytime you hand your money to any service out there. Smarten up ppl get yourself educated with how the economy operates :)

It wouldn't. The operators would take funds from their investors and create the impression of shating profits by paying their victims a small portion of the funds they 'invested'  whenever payouts are due. The users, happy, report success, convince new marks to join and possibly throw more funds at the scheme themselves. This goes on until the amount to be paid to victims exceeds the amount of funds coming in from the victims.

There is no place for trust in giving money to strangers. If a 'business' can't prove they're not operating as outlined above, especially when claiming to operate an investment scheme, they are to be avoided at all costs.

Then how would you like us to prove it to you?
This is not a HYIP, this is a trading pool.

Btw your bifurcated rhetoric, first claiming outrage at being accused of something unseemly, then implying that a little bit of unethical activity isn't so bad since it's what everyone does, doesn't exactly engender much trust, either.

What's the difference?

A HYIP simply pays "investors" with money from new "investors", it is a ponzi.

A trading pool is a legitimate business. We take investors money, pool it together, trade with it, then split the returns up among the investors proportionally after we shave a little off the top for ourselves. It's no different than investing money into a wall street investing firm.

I am #3 btw: https://www.esotericinvestments.com/?refid=3 (https://www.esotericinvestments.com/?refid=3)

How does one tell the two apart?

Honestly I don't have an answer for you... scratch that
But perhaps the best way to tell is communication, are the staff talking with you? Yes they are
Are you able to get the promised returns? Yessiree
Also almost all HYIP are based outside the US, we are based inside the US and are registered in the State of New Jersey.
www.esotericinvestments.com
Esoteric Investments LLC
3104 River Road
Point Pleasant, NJ 08742
(732) 903-8379

Entity ID: 0400647595

Which means we aren't going to commit fraud, and if we were to, then we could easily be hunted down by the authorities.

I was able to verify "Esoteric Investments LLC" is registered in NJ. That's all the records show without paying, anyway. From what I can tell, using anonymous shell companies is pretty common in USA, and especially in New Jersey. And besides, Trendon Shavers' identity was well known early on, that didn't help much.

How to prove it? Simple, produce evidence of the trades that were made. Screenshots of completed trade-orders would be a start, but they could be doctored. A read-only API-key would be better.

Nice, I'll forward that to Glenn and Dan, that would be awesome way to prove trading :)

Thank you for actually checking to see if we were verified instead of merely dismissing us.
I'm not sure about shell companies, but then again I'm not well rehearsed in major scams either :P

We have some more info if you're interested.
https://www.esotericinvestments.com/pr/oct-22-2014.php (https://www.esotericinvestments.com/pr/oct-22-2014.php)

Is there anything else I can help with? And sorry about Digi, he can be a bit rambunctious lol


I can talk to Glenn Crystal about this. I speak with him daily, I'm sure he'd agree to give proof that it is being traded.

From the Eso Chatbox (times in EDT) (10/26/2014)

(15:58:37 PM)  Digicoinz: @Big Deej: In the forums an idea was posted that I'd like to bring up with you
(15:58:54 PM)  Digicoinz: Exchanges have API's that can be setup
(15:58:58 PM)  Digicoinz: for read only access
(15:59:09 PM)  Digicoinz: which you could use to show trading activity
(15:59:19 PM)  Digicoinz: in fact you could setup a live feed to the website showing tihs possibly?
(16:02:52 PM)  Big Deej: its something we would have to build out
(16:03:26 PM)  Big Deej: We have more than 1 person trading the pool and across multiple exchanges we would need to compile it all down into a summary for the entire pool

Digi and I spoke with Glenn via Eso chat, time is Eastern:

@Big Deej: In the forums an idea was posted that I'd like to bring up with you
(15:58:54 PM)  Digicoinz: Exchanges have API's that can be setup
(15:58:58 PM)  Digicoinz: for read only access
(15:59:09 PM)  Digicoinz: which you could use to show trading activity
(15:59:19 PM)  Digicoinz: in fact you could setup a live feed to the website showing tihs possibly?
(16:02:52 PM)  Big Deej: its something we would have to build out
(16:03:26 PM)  Big Deej: We have more than 1 person trading the pool and across multiple exchanges we would need to compile it all down into a summary for the entire pool
(16:03:41 PM)  1RuneKing: oh hey, you are here
(16:03:47 PM)  1RuneKing: okay, digi got ya first :P
(16:03:56 PM)  Big Deej: as i said on/off today
(16:04:18 PM)  Digicoinz: ya that would be an important implementation. and would quell ppl's worries a lil
(16:04:26 PM)  1RuneKing: indeed


Also I talked with him on skype, time is Pacific:


[1:01:50 PM] Rune King: Hey, could we get some screenshots of trading? Or a read only API-key? There are some people agreeing that these would be the best way to verify that the money is actually being traded and us not being a HYIP/ponzi
[1:04:36 PM] Glenn Crystal: Yes/no
[1:04:44 PM] Glenn Crystal: I have to get all that put together
[1:04:54 PM] Glenn Crystal: Its not as simple as just giving you access to 1 account
[1:05:02 PM] Rune King: yeah yeah
[1:05:07 PM] Rune King: i get it
[1:05:17 PM] Rune King: suggestion to add to the pile
[1:06:06 PM] Glenn Crystal: yeah unfortunately
[1:06:07 PM] Glenn Crystal: lol
[1:06:43 PM] Rune King: you really do need a few coding monkey lol
[1:07:29 PM] Glenn Crystal: yeah im the only one atm
[1:07:42 PM] Rune King: I know... :/
[1:07:29 PM] Glenn Crystal: yeah im the only one atm

Thats how a PONZI works u poor victim ... (u could be a fake account tho)

It's also how people legitimately gain trust.

I randomly met him on cryptsy chat, and we chatted a bit and exchanged Skypes.
He taught me how to arb, and a few other tricks and what to watch for.
I've helped him with ideas as to what to include on the website, and I gave him the idea to start up his trading pool. (Esoteric Investments existed before the pool, but it had kinda faded to just him)
I'm helping him create games for the site, and in general for the company.
We give eachother ideas and tell eachother when we notice good trades/coins.
I help look over pages that are added to the site to make sure they're clear and correct.
He vents to me about crap in his social life, and I to him.

That has all happened over a couple of months...

I may not know him face to face (we live on opposite sides of the country) but I trust him, and I feel I can count on him as a friend (we are friends on FB :P). It makes me disgusted to see people dismiss him and the company as a scam.

How to prove it? Simple, produce evidence of the trades that were made. Screenshots of completed trade-orders would be a start, but they could be doctored. A read-only API-key would be better.
[/quote]

Finally! 3 pages more of comments and finally a suggestion to improve the companies shortfalls and what you'd like to see from us rather than more and more of the same comments saying the same thing.

The read only API key would expose our position in the markets so a real time one mite be a liability to our trading. Though we may be able to find some way to make it work. possibly alter/limit its responses to restrict open orders though that may be something that'd have to be done on the exchanges' side. More Glenn's department than my own.

DAN!!!!  :D :D :D :D

Now we just need Glenn to comment lol

Maybe. If people want to talk to Glenn (Big Deej) they can go to the site chat. This forum has been 90% attacks at our personal character. I can handle that. I'm bullet proof to insults at this point from being in a fraternity and being one of "the weird kids" in High school, I've had my share. So I'm used to dealing with ignorance and peoples' BS. Glenn would take it more personally. That's why you don't see him on this forum. He isn't hiding but he isn't gonna get on here solely to be attacked.

True... Hey, would you PM me your skype if youve got one? I've had GLenns for a while

Still waiting for a comment from the big boss.

The only one attacking other users on a personal level is Digicoinz.

I'm glad there is also a legendary one involved in this thread now.

Interesting .....

Before he said that he isn't eso owner but customer. After some doxxing .... He is owner he wide open and friendly too.
Is someone here from NJ ? Maybe that real address from someone else..... Too suspicious .....
Anyway he cannot take investments without license. In US such license cost...... too much. I know what I'm saying.

I think that's obvious scam.

Edit. Gave neg trust. Without license that website is a scam.
Regards.

Esoteric Investments is owned by Glenn Crystal (Big Deej) and Dan Pace (Phantom Trader)
Dan only recently re-partnered with Glenn, so he may have been a customer at one point

You do not need a liscense to take investments in BTC, only in USD which Esoteric Investments is currently trying to obtain, and should obtain in the near future. Which is why at this point it only offers a BTC investment.
The USD investments will offer a fixed 5% return

This is not a scam, you can verify that it is registered in the US yourself.

How often are you going to repeat that lie?
http://www.communitycurrencieslaw.org/securities/

What the fuck......   Phantom Trader on October 15, 2014, 04:57:26 PM(his first post, check his profile) said that he is customer and "testing water"  ;D

Again, obvious scam.

Edit. Think need to report that site to FINCEN .

Regards.

First time I have said it

Also I will pass this on to Glenn, though he may already be aware of it.
I am not 100% filled in on the legal verifications that Glenn has acquired for the company, and he may already have that taken care of.
Though reading through this myself, and a few other pages, there is nothing that specifically states that a company must get a liscense to work with BTC investments or payments.


At that time Phantom (Dan Pace) was not a partner in tge company, he is now, and has been for about a week.

Right now without license it is a scam. Please show license and I will remove neg. trust.

Edit.

Here is legit company looks like:
https://spectrocoin.com/en/about.html

Regards.

Would a normal USD liscense be enough for you? Glenn should be getting one here in the near future.

Also, I wouldn't trust that, it's incorporated in Lithuania. And I see nothing about any liscenses.

Let's FINCEN lighting us about that site.

Regards.

P.S. ....incorporated in United Kingdom and Lithuania. And yes, I asked and they have licencse (they sent me copy of licence) as any legit financial company must have.
I'm saying that right now eso site is a scam.
will be in future not equal it is right now.

Regards.

What is Spectro Coin?
Spectro Coin provides a safe environment to buy and sell bitcoins through bank account and other payment methods. Spectro Coin also provides a bitcoin e-wallet service to safely hold, spend and receive bitcoins without downloading any software. Spectro Coin merchant service allows entrepreneurs an easy access to collect bitcoin payments.


What does this company have anything to do with Eso? it's a completely different type service

Stay on topic please.

what kind of license? please specify.  Esoteric is a registered company under NJ laws.

How many times need to say?
I'm saying that right now eso site is a scam. Without license it's crime.
I'm sure that FINCEN will do penalty to owners of that site.

Regards.

P.S.  .....what kind of license? Boy, if you don't know go to your lawyer and ask.

Again what kind of license?

No license is required to handle bitcoins.

Any official company can't take money without financial licence. Never-mind US or EU or whatever.....
OK. Let's wait what FINCEN answering after reporting about that site.  ;D
Regards.

They are only accepting bitcoins. Bitcoins do not fall under fincen.

You're forgetting that cryptocurrency is still an unregulated system.

But Please do file a report, let's see what happens :)

I think you are wrong about regulation.

And offering unregistered securities is a crime.

Searching google..... ups...
http://www.yourfreebitcoin.blogspot.nl/2014/06/australian-man-charged-with-stealing.html


Regards.

Lol @ arbitrage activities. Somewhat safe way to trade but worst way to actually make any substantial money, and in alt coin markets forget about it you have minutes at most before the market will move skyrocketing your chances that your arb will be unprofitable.

Say registration was put in the mail today it would still take a month(s) for the actual license. We'll be showing the steps along the way starting with legal counsel as we get it.

I said this before, After the Shavers case Bitcoin has officially been said by every bureau that it is not money or legal tender. It is a property that can be bought and sold for a price. I think I gave the trading cards example. In theory I could be running a trading card investment program that I exchange a certain trading cards for you with other people that have different trading cards to get you more of that original certain trading card to pay you a return. If I run off with your cards it's theft regardless of the "trading card" being counted as money or as property. So the regulatory bureaus do still have over site and jurisdiction of this as a crime if we run off and steal peoples property. But is what we are doing still an investment contract after the federal government has officially announced that Bitcoin is not a currency or form of money? That remains to be answered. Shoving the Shavers case in our face doesn't mean anything now until that question is answered.

Hopefully our time with some attorneys familiar with the capacity of Bitcoin will be able to clear that up or some talks with federal bureaus with ourselves and an attorney on our behalf. Those sort of announcements will be coming in the month to 2 months. And we will update you all as we can.

And the site you have shown controls fiat money and digital currencies as well as is a form of exchange, and a different country with much simpler legalities. For the UK its comply with KYC AML and CTF laws and register with one bureau for one fee. America you must register federally with several bureas once at a certain point of holding assets, and with every state in addition to complying with KYC, AML, CTF. I wish we had to deal with the UK system.

And just want to point out, this ironically wouldn't be a concern if our company was in Panama. So why don't you guys give us some time so we can set up all of this government protection for you guys since we were nice enough to remain in the US for your protection by our wonderful, although indecisive, government.

from that site:
"Details on this front are particularly scarce, so it isn’t immediately clear as to whether or not any of the bitcoin loot in possession by the suspect was converted into Australian dollars.
At the present exchange rate, $110,000 dollars is the equivalent of about 195 bitcoins (subject to fluctuate, given bitcoin’s volatility).
The man was charged with tainted property and breach of bail offenses and will be required to appear at Hervey Bay Magistrates Court come 24 July 2014."

So this site you posted, is not only irrelevant to your argument, but nothing about it was related to the United States, and on that site it's not even known if the allegations are true. Did you read it first? How did you find it relevant?


 

Couldn't have said it better myself, thanks. :)

I know coz stay in NY more 15 Years  :)
Everything is not so simple.....
Boys, don't take peoples money at least right now...... after legalisation may be yes.

Regards.

Investor's aren't having their money taken, it's mutual agreed transfer to the company's crypto wallet (deposit addresses), from the investor to the company.

Are you saying if you deposited bitcoin to esoteric, you would claim they took it(by coercion, threat or force)? even tho you willingly executed the transaction yourself, and the profits were given to you daily, as well as your principle investment returned after 90 days?

Yeah.
I think that guys doesn't understood..... that they run a scam and going to the crime.

Think this need to report to police too.


Regards.

Nothing in that site you posted showed the guy was actually convicted or went to jail or anything of that nature, it was only an accusation. And again nothing to do with Esoteric in any way shape or form.

You are trying to make an accusation with out any basis/evidence/proof.

Jeez... Talk about some broken english! lol
Eso is in full legal rights to take investments in crypto, and there is nothing illegal about it.
And if I remember correctly, not even NY had passed their registration deal, so thats pointless.

Offering an unregistered securities is a crime. That is.


Regards.

P.S. I'm not American I'm Russian. But I think that it's not a big deal. I'm talking about scam and you
promoting that scam. So think my english will be enough to fill some reports :)

It's not a security, please look back through this thread as Phantom (dan pace) has covered this issue already.

Boy, I don't need to discuss. Will see. Let's they speak with attorney.

Regards.

If it clears things up, fine.

Yes, let us talk with attorneys to get a better idea of what the situation really is. Already got one to talk to calling tomorrow when offices are open. So we shall see soon.

Damnit man! I love ya!

Always got things covered. Let the opposition fall!

Me too. Tomorrow also will go to fill reports. Even with my bad English :)

Regards.

 

loool

this bests represents this whole conversation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhsy6epaJGs

Stop antagonizing Fedor you two.

You are lying.  You cannot sue anyone personally for losses incurred in a LLC.  That's what the LIMITED LIABILITY means.

A LLC that performs fraud is not protected by it as the company operations were fraudulent. Stealing would be fraud. So if we steal bitcoins from you you can sue us.

How would you steal these coins?  You don't guarantee profit, so you just need to claim you made some poor trading decisions.

100% legal.

BTW, one of your promoters is flat out lying about your company.  Here is his latest gem:


You should tell him to shut up, for he is only making things worse.  lol

 ::)

Hey liar.  You are the one knows nothing about what a LLC is.  I do.

Nothing I have posted is a lie.    ::)

We need to prove we made some poor trading decisions. Given the majority of our trades happen on two large American exchanges the court system and ourselves wont have much of a problem proving. The real worry is one of them shutting down in which case again there'll be proof and pretty logical explanation better then a typhoon on a long planned vacation.

Your computer crashed and you lost all records...

Scammers hacked in and stole all the coins....

Just two legal excuses I can think of that allow you to take all the coins and have zero personal liability.

There's no point arguing with these ppl, they will try to think of a way to rebut everything that is said. Just leave it be.

Can't argue with ppl who think they are authority on a subject they have no credibility in.

Hence why a lawyer will be talked with soon. And then they won't have any say at all.


Thank you

You should have already talked to a lawyer before you took deposits.

lol.  Man you have to shut up.  You are clueless about how the US trading regulations work, esp with corporations dealing with OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.

Nice way of fabricating lies. Where do ya see these posts?

I'm only thinking about the apologies I expect to receive after all is said and done  8)

You posted them and deleted them.  I'm sure other people saw them.

Thanks for showing everyone how honest you are.   :P

Probably this one....
http://www.iii.co.uk/research/LSE:MML/news/item/1093348/cancellation-medusa-mining-ld?context=LSE:MML

Regards.

I am no longer posting anything without first checking with Dan/Glenn as dealing with you for several hours, and looking at that picture of that retard Peter Griffin has severely ticked me off.
You'll regret saying these things once the company takes off.
same

Why would I regret pointing out you are a liar when the company takes off?

You made those posts, then deleted them, then accused me of making up stories.

You do realize the mods can see deleted posts, right?

How do you think Dan/Glenn feel about you promoting their site when you lie about everything?

lol "i refreshed the page" and "lie" became lie

You must be religious.  Seems most people are aware your site is a scam.

https://i.imgur.com/geGQJFV.jpg

I am, got a problem with that?

Nope, just shows your mental state and that you are gullible.  No doubt you believe your scam will succeed.  ;)

Than I'm sorry you can't give some things a chance before it has a chance to prove itself.

Sad...

Well I'm not religious, and I tackle everything analytically. If there is no proof I don't believe/support it.
This is not a scam and it will succeed.

This is also likeyl the last post I will have for a while
Phantom, Digi, deal with this, I'm stepping away as dealing with Vod for a few hours has pissed me off and stressed me out.


I'm going to go relax to some Walking Dead

Are you msitaking the Medusa trading software we created for this Mine that I guess closed. They're not us.

If that is applied to something else then I don't understand.

One of your strongest supporters (client #3!!!) turned out to be a pathological liar!  Thank goodness you were able to shut him up, but the damage is already done.

That doesn't bode well for the rest of your team - how can anyone trust anything you post?

Quoting before he deletes...

1RuneKing - lying is always stressful.  The truth will set you free.  :)

That's old trading platform
https://medusa.esotericinvestments.com/login.php
and I saw inside was some tradings .....    about 5-10 USD.

Edit. I don't crack your sites but both sites have zero security.


Regards.

Ok, for one I'm promoting the company on my own accord. not "with" any "team" as you say. Rune, is doing his own thing and not my business. If it's an issue for Esoteric, they will make it known to him.

I'm associated with Esoteric only as a customer, NOTHING more. So hope that clarifies any confusion.

Any information I acquire of and about Esoteric is through my own research, and information I glean off of Dan and Glenn.

Thank you



 

Thanks for the clarification, but promoting an obvious ponzi is not good karma either.   :-\

Have a good night.

Esoteric Investments has explained everything I said, and has a track record of trading with very little motive to scam. Has the trading intelligence you'd expect and coin knowledge you'd need for the markets. Oversight and transparency is coming for as much as we can give however that takes time to develop and figure out how. So instead of criticism we need to know how your bitcoin can be made safe from the best source you or oyu'll have to wait till we figure out a fool proof way.

Medusa trading was a trading User interface that featured automatic buys and stop loss/sells along with a social media aspect that allowed groups to share trading tips and strategies, chat, and see market performance of each other, past filled orders, and open orders. With all that you could form small groups and trade together knowing what everyone was doing to pool your bitcoin and trade together. We took it offline recently as bitcoin was sent in as it exposed our open orders, and had no users besides ourselves. Screenshots are on our twitter and we made a twitter for Medusa with more screenshots. Old links there are down and archived now though. @MedusaTrading1

NO he hasnt, and he cant. This bullshit about BTC not being regulated has already been shot down in court so many times, I posted the verdict several times and what it says applies 100% to this scam:

First, the Court must determine whether the BTCST
investments constitute an investment of money. It is clear that Bitcoin can be used as money. It
can be used to purchase goods or services, and as Shavers stated, used to pay for individual
living expenses. The only limitation of Bitcoin is that it is limited to those places that accept it as
currency. However, it can also be exchanged for conventional currencies, such as the U.S.
dollar, Euro, Yen, and Yuan. Therefore, Bitcoin is a currency or form of money, and investors
wishing to invest in BTCST provided an investment of money.

[..]

CONCLUSION
 Therefore, the Court finds that the BTCST investments meet the definition of investment
contract, and as such, are securities.2
 For these reasons, the Court finds that it has subject matter
jurisdiction over this matter, pursuant to Sections 20 and 22 of the Securities Act of 1933 (the
“Securities Act”) [15 U.S.C. §§ 77t and 77v] and Sections 21 and 27 of the Exchange Act of
1934 (the “Exchange Act”) [15 U.S.C. §§ 78u and 78aa].

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/08/06/Bitcoin.pdf


Note the issue there wasnt even if it was a ponzi or not, the court first determined that BTC denominated investments where indeed a security. Guess what: THEY ARE.

No thats not what it means. If it meant what you seem to think it means, it would be called "no liability". Among other things, fraud is a reason for piercing the corporate veil and holding the people personally responsible.

BTW, I have not yet heard back from jpaccounts.com, so as far as Im concerned the ID of the perpetrator has not yet been confirmed.

Phantomtrader claimed someone called his house, if so, could we have some feedback of that from whoever did it? I dont want everyone to spam/call this family as for all I know, they may even not be involved at all.

If you do call or visit the address, please keep it polite, just verify the identity of the operator and inform his family of the ongoing scam. If phantomtrader is who he claims to be, it shouldnt be hard for his mother to understand the consequences of operating a ponzi or selling  unregistered securities

He's running a ponzi, so appealing to his moral sense is unlikely to do much good. Quite likely Digicoinz and 1RuneKing are just suck puppet accounts. Both accounts have clearly been created to astroturf this ponzi, just like a lot of the accounts that were supporting BT.biz were created for that purpose.

*facepalm* just making more and more assumptions, the blatant ignorant accusations won't stop till it's shoved down their throats a piece of paper saying "we the govt find Esoteric in compliance with all rules/laws, etc governing cryptocurrency trading/investing activities with its investors' holdings" blah blah blah....


Fuck the Govt!!!  :D  

"No man is good enough to govern another man without the other's consent."

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it."


-Abraham Lincoln
 


And what are you pawns of the government doing? the wrong thing that's for sure.

Bitcoin is made by the people for the people! Keep the govt out of it!

And you wont be! She is not going to respond to your unsolicited and unwarranted request for information and she is under no obligation to. I have told her not to answer you as she has no reason to compromise her privacy. My name is out there more then enough in multiple locations. Finding me is no chore. I even gave you a federal license identification of myself, Amateur Radio operators are regulated by the FCC.

Bottom line look at all of our resources discussed here, posted on the site, and all of our social media. Come talk to us so we can answer your questions and tell you about ourselves. And check up on us as we add more to our resources to prove our legitimacy. Then if you trust us invest what you are willing to. If you do not trust us then don't invest into us until a point you may feel comfortable investing. At this point their is enough information you can make your own decision and come to us with valid questions.

If not allowing our families to be involved and contact any of you causes you to not trust us then do not invest your bitcoin!

You posted information of someone, there is no way to know if it is yours or if you stole someone else's identity from public available information. A reply from your mother would go a long way proving you are who you say you are.

But dont worry, the authorities will sort it out. I filed a complaint with the SEC. Admittedly it will take time for them to do anything, but the outcome is not in question. Among countless other violations, you are selling unregistered securities, and that fact alone could potentially land you in jail. Here is an interesting read for you:

http://www.nj.gov/oag/ca/press/dangelo.htm

An extract:

Sounds familiar?

If you are who you claim you are, you are in deep shit.

If anyone else feels like filing:

https://denebleo.sec.gov/TCRExternal/questionaire.xhtml

You can do so anonymously with the SEC if you want. You can also file with the New jersey bureau of securities here:

http://www.njsecurities.gov/compform.htm

Hmm you say you filed, where's the copy of your complaint?

All HYIP inquiries and accounts shall be deleted immediately, and any associated traffic, referrals, or accounts received from these sites shall be warned that the referring website is a known area to market scams and fraudulent services.

you speak like you are an administrator

but you are only a newbie with -6 reputation

Why would I provide you a copy? Its been filed and I got a case number TCR1414400659xxx
If you prefer to think I didnt file, thats fine by me.

I'm an administrator of my site and company, and we are notifying HYIP promoters and their sites we do not want their association.

Where is your 5 % a month offer. Got some cold feet?!

ROFL, indeed he removed it. Not that I believe the lottery is in fact legal without licensing, or for that matter the "Deej Pool"

Had said I was going to remove it. Since it caused so much confusion.

I put a partial copy (actually I have full copy with API and scripts too) of that site before being removed:
http://rusfolder.com/42102433

Edit.

before:
https://i.imgur.com/0DZlyCf.png

right now:
https://i.imgur.com/16wNd8c.png




Also filled reports because people was scammed a lot.

Regards.

You are claiming that you are taking coins from people, sending them to exchanges, trading with them, and then sending the profits back.

You could go part of the way to showing that this was true if there was a public ledger showing all of the transactions. If only there was a public way to show that all the coins people gave to you were sent to exchanges, and that all of your payouts are coming from exchanges. If only there was some way to track the chain of coins going from your investors to you to the exchanges back to you and back to the investors.

This wouldn't be perfect, since we still have no proof that you are doing what you say you are doing, but I'm sure you are working on a way to be transparent and prove that to everyone.

Showing that all your coins are actually going to and coming from would be a good start on the path to transparency, if only that public ledger existed...

One of his accomplices inadvertently did that already.  have a look here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=835706.msg9339047#msg9339047

.22 BTC deposited in to this address:
https://blockchain.info/address/15BfzBttWvmYq2eSK7Yt9RxYDSWBaWv9nE

Which where then siphoned to here:
https://blockchain.info/address/1HEt984iQ93snJVQWqrD2qu8aANah588es

And remained untouched ever since. Im sure our scammer will start mixing those coins upon reading this post, but he hasnt done anything with it for the past 3 weeks, yet somehow made 7% profit on it.

BTW, I assume the two 0.01BTC shares runek1 owns, for which there are no matching deposits, is his affiliate link loot. All that trouble, all those lies and all that guilt  for ~$7  that he probably wont even be able to withdraw.

That first share was given to me, the second .01 share was something I bought from the returns of the past while.
I am not a sock puppet account. I am a real and individual person. My identity you shall not know, but I live in Benton City Washington.

It is interesting that you see that SEC publication differently than the documents related to the Shavers case. As it has been mentioned several times now in this thread, the SEC has been able to successfully show to a court that Bitcoin is "like money" (they even use "like money" in that publication) and fits the definition of money when defining a security. This suggests (to me) that SEC/courts intentionally use a very loose definition of money when defining a security to avoid loopholes.

Seems that you believe there is some ambiguity here, but it appears (to me and others here) the SEC/courts think differently. Are you prepared to challenge the SEC if they do take action against you?

That would be very costly to start with and for sure can't be paid for with a couple of 0.1 btc investments.

If you read the actual definitions in the security act of 1933, you will see they use the term "for value" in the definition of a sale. The word "money" isnt even there, let alone dollar. So it doesnt matter if you sell your investment instrument for, or denominate it in dollar, gold,  barrels of oil or bitcoin, as long as it has value.

As for the definition of a security, to say its broad is an understatement:

The term “security” means any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities (including any interest therein or based on the value thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing.

Good point, I was going off the investment contract definition used in the Shavers case.

After all this discussion, I can't fathom how any rational person would think the "because... bitcoin" defense would work with the SEC.

Their #3 client posted the following about that: 


 ::)

ROFL ... BT said the same  ;) ;)

Good point LOL  ;D

Yea that don't make sense grammatically, what is a "generic web investment funds as well?"

...as well as what? Or in addition to what?

Just asking for clarification. That was also something else that gave me a red flag about BT ...their English sucked for a company claiming to be running in the UK...aka Russians lol in my opinion.

Finally, some guidance to go by on this matter:

http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/rulings/pdf/FIN-2014-R011.pdf (http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/rulings/pdf/FIN-2014-R011.pdf) (October 27th, 2014)
 

FinCEN told CoinDesk that the ruling is meant to be an official opinion to the companies in question, however, and that it may not apply more broadly.

Dear scammer, have you been served yet ?

http://cointelegraph.com/news/112811/us-regulators-one-two-punch-sec-probes-crowdsales-fincen-takes-aim-at-exchanges

Oh wait, you're not allowed to tell us. Wink twice if you got the letter :).

This is a friendly reminder that any "investment program" that offers fixed returns of 1% or more is a HYIP and therefore a Ponzi Scheme.

If you invest in these programs you not only stand to lose all your money but in the event of legal proceedings you may be subject to charges of aiding and abetting criminal activity as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program

Even an offer of 0.1%/day would most likely be a scam.

Are you dumb, you don't see anyway that it is possible to make over .1% on average daily. In crypto markets moving dozens to hundreds of a percent in hours to days. We have a few dozen under management at the moment. With that little it is easy. As we move to a few 100 I doubt profits will be anywhere where they have been.

Also some updates on the legal front. We are within exemptions of many reporting and registration requirements with both the state(s) and federal government. Paperwork is in the process of filing under these exemptions. We soon may begin having to take down more information about investors to know of their location for AML, CTF, and KYC compliances, but this is after all what you all wanted...Enjoy!

and nope no summons served yet.

And nothing about our site or service is generic lol #CUSTOM

Last to whoever was saying "If only some public ledger of every transaction existed, and could be used to verify what we're doing." If you could read and bothered to really look at us you'd know that's our plan, or one of our plans for transparency. As you can see from our lottery we like using the block chain to prove something is fair. Till we design a system to do it for you, then you all can follow the block chain and keep up with it yourself.

You'll all just have to wait and see. Can't make everything overnight while keeping up with the markets.

Again I say if you trust us you can start earning sooner. If you don't , then don't invest and maybe wait for all the transparency and regulations to develop. WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING MORE THEN THAT!

Why do you need a plan for transparency?

If you want to be tranparent, be transparent. how many coins have people given you? Where are they? how much do you make each day? Why can't you post the results in real numbers instead of percentages?

How are you (and your clinets) protected if the market crashes when you take off for important holidays like Halloween?

Read the FAQ and our materials before you join the groups of people slandering us who have also not read them. We often do trade on holidays and weekends, markets don't take off for weekends and holidays and if there is a good opportunity or bitcoin is in the markets at that time we wont take off either. We just do not process payouts or report the payout on those days.If the market crashes while our eyes aren't on a computer there are automated stop losses and sells in place to automatically sell the coin when it falls below a point or above a point.

Today's payout: 0.01 BTC, how are you supposed to know how much of that bitcoin is yours and not other depositors. Percentages work better there.

Coin is deposited randomly at all times throughout the day, into a deposit wallet that doesn't become active in the trading wallet(s) till the next day, that furthermore we may not even move into the trading wallet if there is no place for it to be invested at that time. There are several trading wallets as it isn't always one person trading nor are we on only one exchange. When we sell off some of our holdings this profits will be moved into the profits wallet and our cut will go into yet another one. Probably one wallet I forgot to mention too. and this system is still being designed to what wallets we really need how many, and then their addresses. Once its design we then will need to code out a way to take all of the wallet balances and add them to display our finances in a clear way to everyone.

Once all of that is in place you will be able to see the estimated pool balance, and the profits that we've collected to ensure they add up with the math that we're presenting in our payouts. And after all of this work, there are still flaws to provide transparency for.

Being transparent in Bitcoin, where even the government with all their resources have trouble following and accounting for things, is a ton easier said than done.

We'll need some time to put together a satisfactory system. All the other nuances being brought to us distract us from that. So if you want to see this in the next week or two. Leave us to our work. Unless you actually have something helpful to say in obtaining these goals.

Yes, I want to help you and the people you are making money for.

If you want to be transparent, and aren't running a scam, it really shouldn't take any effort at all to know how many coins you have, where they are, and how much you are making. I don't see a valid reason in that wall of text why you can't start being transparent now.

It may take time and effort to automate that, but if that's important, it probably should have been done before you started, and it still doesn't mean you can't do it manually regularly.

If you want to be transparent the question "how many coins do you have?" should be answered by a number, not a wall of text.

We have upwards of 20btc under management right now. Current holdings we aren't sure if we want to divulge, especially right now with so much negativity around us. Could encourage some people to screw that market(s) up. When all holdings are sold off we plan to release the trade history of that coin.

Before any coin began to come into Esoteric, Bitcoin Trader was the big thing which did not feature any transparency. Now that they have fallen it is a major issue for us and you. Hence why its a new project added to our growing list.

I know for certain that it's possible with a limited amount of funds, but it doesn't scale to very high sums. With a higher sum of invested money the profits measured in percent will fall. That means it would be stupid for anyone who figures out how to give away the profits to random strangers.

Right but at 20 btcs we're not there. At 100btcs we might start seeing the effects of having too much. It's something we are aware of, and at that point either stop taking in deposits or we change the payout model to something more conventional of a private mutual/hedge fund.

Or what'd be amazing is if we are at that point fully accredited, then we'll just use that coin and turn it into USD investments like stocks and commodities. Though again this will probably come with a change to our operations. Adding USD in addition to BTC adds a lot of complexity, or was I the only one puzzled by how BT did it. At that point the sky is the limit for the fund. We don't want to be only in Bitcoin forever. The term esoteric investments in the financial world spans much farther then digital currencies.

In the next year Esoteric Investments is going to change A LOT both the face and the inner workings of it. I'm excited for it!  ;D

Sit back and enjoy the show, hopefully we can earn you some money along the way.

I think most people understand that if you want to make money trading bitcoins you can't have all your funds in bitcoin all the time. The fact that you don't just makes your claim of earning 1% every day seem even more silly.

We trade bitcoins in alt coin markets and grow your bitcoin deposit by 0-2% daily, at this moment we aren't concerned with making you money in the form of USD or any fiat dollar. If that's what you are looking for then don't use our service because you will be very disappointed. Some people really believe in Bitcoin and want it and more of it no matter its current fiat value. Others are concerned with the fiat value, but also hold a stake just in case bitcoin surges to the 1000s again. These are the people that will be interested in what Esoteric has to offer currently. We are not in this business currently for the people who want more money, (that's in store for the future) we're in it for the people who want more bitcoin.

This is pure semantics, you are supposedly in the business of asset growth using a trading mechanism involving bitcoin and alts to generate profit. How that profit is denominated is irrelevant.
What is relevant to anyone who wants to take your advice "Sit back and enjoy the show, hopefully we can earn you some money along the way" is:
A) You are actually trading, which is why transparency is important, otherwise the ponzi accusations will not stop.
B) If you are likely to be shut down by a regulatory body, which is why your vagueness on that subject is concerning.
C) That your trading system is sustainable and not just a 'flash in the pan'. Hints of "we'll do anything to make money" diversification don't inspire confidence.

You showed poor judgement in botching your launch by ambulance chasing BT survivors. Butthurt sensitivity to people's legitimate skepticism since then hasn't helped your cred either.
I have no idea whether an investment with you would be anything more than a pure gamble and your 'make it up as you go along' approach certainly isn't helping.

Transparency is not a "project" you are either transparent or you are not. there is no reason why this should be taking this long to "be transparent." Show how many coins were given to you on the blockchain, show those coins going to exchanges, show some sort of history of past trades, show the coins you use for payouts coming out exchanges. If you can't do that without exposing your business, you can't be transparent, so stop saying it.

guys, stop reading his BS .. its a SCAM .. as simple as that, if someone is stupid enough to send money to this dude, than he deserve to get scammed ...

ah, u're showing us that this SCAM pays lower than 1%, so they can be longer alive to SCAM other people, i cant even say nice try ... its a bad one ...

Hard to believe the operators would be so stupid to think they could get away with this without false IDs, VPNs and whoisguards, so Im assuming identity theft. But since Ive not heard any denial from Julia, the alleged mother, I went ahead and also filed a complaint with the New Jersey buro of securities (http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/bos/compform.htm). They seem to like tackling these kinds of scams, Daniel, you may want  to register for this event:
http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/bos/BOS-Conference-Flyer-2014.pdf

You might learn a thing or two from real pro's :)

Actually I found that with higher sums I can make some profit (usually >1%) from volume trading some established altcoins on multiple exchanges, in addition it makes possible to diversify my "investments" and make some short-medium term buys on high volume new(ish) coins what just hit the bottom after the initial dump (and supposed to bounce back).
However I agree this can be difficult to manage for one person especially with highly diversified funds across lots of exchanges.

I find that claims about profits from ponzi pushers are not very trustworthy.

Especially someone pushing a ponzi that has already collapsed and ran off with the money ROFL.
Next up: "my BTCST profits are now 8544932%, so it is possible!"

I don't really care if you trust my opinion or not. I've made a two weeks "contract" with Niothor and I'm doing my part as I promised to do. If he does his part too as he promised then we are square. If not, then he's a scammer and I'll remove my signature and will join the topic about him on the scam accusations board. Easy enough. Isn't it?

I'm talking about trading. You are talking about your beliefs :).

Notice how Digi said upwards of 1%/day? If you look at the results you can see that there have been returns over that, but most have been under or around it.

Also thanks to Phantom for keeping you guys posted on info.

You guys were watning transaprency, so then would the # of investors and the amt of BTC investde help you guys? I'm sure Phantom or I can get that for you no problem, Deej is just asleep for the time-being. Anything else you guys would like to know? I'm all for helping you guys get the information you need.


I'm with ya man. Esoterics gonna go a long way!

You must be slow, I have given you a federally granted License of my identity, and am very easy to find on social media tracing back around half a decade of my life which includes Esoteric Investments and an active social life from my friends (including the standard random facebook friends) "Hard to believe we don't use false IDs VPNs or whoisguard" Why could this be? Could it be, I don't know, we are actually running something real. If you ever bothered to chat with either of us you'd know we aren't dumb and in full knowledge of all of these and then some, but have no reason to use any of them as we aren't being shady at all.

So puppet stfu I'm done responding to you in particular because everything you say is dumb BS! Look forward to seeing your report on us and filing a lawsuit for you in return, typical true investment firm style. ;)

Dan, you're dumber than a second coat of paint. Fortunately your obvious ignorance and stupidity seems to prevent people falling for your scam, so thats something you should be grateful for.


You're going to file a lawsuit because I contacted a consumer protection agency? Good luck with that :)

I'm not 100% certain, but I do believe he can sue for libel and ruining his image.

But y'all need to calm the frack down!

He can sue me for wearing two different socks, but he would have the same chance of getting a judgement in his favor.

Besides, if he can afford to retain a lawyer without abusing customer funds, Im fairly sure that lawyer will soon have far more important things to do.

he cant sue anything ... lol .. this is a forum where u are free to say your opinion ... plus .. he is promoting a scam ...so ...

Website is down... Did they pull the plug already?

Performing server upgrades. We aren't out yet.

can't help but to ask, if it was a concern or excitement for you lol

Site is back, upgraded, and better then ever along with some new added defenses.
Also, some basic ddos hack group demanding payment from us to stop their attack has been mitigated. Nice try. (not really though)

Time for round 2.

We are experiencing attacks from a known ddos group called dd4bc they attacked nitrogen sports a bitcoin sports betting site in the past.  http://www.bitcoingg.com/nitrogen-sports-remains-resilient-amid-attacks-due-to-blackmails-extortions/ (http://www.bitcoingg.com/nitrogen-sports-remains-resilient-amid-attacks-due-to-blackmails-extortions/) 

As nitrogen sports has gotten past their attacks we shall as well.

Take this message as a warning the site may go down several times for the next few days while defenses are put in place to mitigate all of their attacks. All personal information is safe and secured they haven't made any attempts to hack us. Just shut down our servers.

However if a hack is attempted successfully we will send out emails to members to make them aware of what data, if any, of theirs may have been taken. Most personal data like passwords is hashed and salted so this shouldn't become a major issue even if a hack is successfully performed.

The group known as dd4bc is continuing its ddos attacks for a ransom of btc that we will not be paying. We are combating these attacks and finding and developing ways to mitigate them. Will keep you all updated as we make new developments. One thing is clear you aren't getting a single satoshi from us, so dd4bc this is a waste of your time as well as ours!

And Eligius
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=353891

I'm inclined to believe you so good luck, but I wouldn't be surprised if others might not.....
 :-\

Thanks at the very worst we will have to sign up for cloudlflare guaranteed ddos protection to give us a strong line of defense. For the cost of 200/month instead of a 1 btc ransom to most likely get extorted again next month by these guys. Their demands are stupid not getting anything from us.

Genius trader that found secret way to grow capital nearly  10x faster than Bernie Madoff.
Lives in moms basement and hesitant to shell out $200 for cloudflare

Bad communication!!!

Can't you post a message a bit earlier, if there are any issues, like server upgrades, mitigating DDoS attacks etc.???

ROFL

notice the "YET"

lawl, is this why my Oct. 27th withdraw still hasn't been credited to my wallet?  ::)

((Good thing I only put in 0.25 BTC))

only ? why would u send money to some scammers ? if u get burned i wont feel sorry for u

The site will be back in full swing!

Glenn informed me today:

"we are setting up a private server for our current clients atm
this will allow us to operate the login section of the site independantly from the main site
our primary focus is to get a system in place for our current active members and continue daily operations (trading)
we discussed last night and concluded there is not going to be a simple bandaid fix short of investing in upgrades to the infastructure of the front end heavily which at this time we decided to hold off on. For this purpose we are setting up a private server that will only be accessible to current active members. We shall continue to post results on this private server until a public solution is in place.
as such the affiliate section shall also be placed offline until the public solution is in place."

Private message me the wallet you used for this withdrawal along with your username or account name if you can so we can look at our records. Our withdrawals should all be up to date unless they happened after Friday when the site was experiencing problems from the attacks. So I need to see if you or us had put in a wrong wallet address or some other error may have occurred.

And yes that is the direction we are going in. We will be going to a private undisclosed non public server. If you are a current client with any sort of bitcoin deposit you will be given access, those with no bitcoin in their accounts have no need for the site and will not be given access. Also at this point new clients and further bitcoin deposits will not be accepted.

Oh, no no, I put .25 BTC to test things out because why not; it's under $100.

My goal is to get in and get out before the project closes down.  :P

Not a project, and won't close down.
I put in .22 when it started (was about $100) and been happy. All in all these are good guys and have found a way to help people that works.
Pity they are being attacked the way they are.

rofl ... nice try

Whatever, don't believe me, just means I'll get to enjoy the returns and you won't :)

You don't deserve to have any money if you spent it on these fools.

We'll start sending out emails to clients with how to get to the private server tomorrow in the evening. We will not send out emails to every client all at once. We may choose to do it over the course of the week.

Thank you in advance for your patience.

So this one didn't last very long then? Site seems to be down already.

Always seemed like it existed purely to mop up the hardcore believers, hanging on after the death of Bitcoin-trader.biz, those who are certain that it MUST be possible to get rich quick through HYIPs, if only they can find the right one...

Did you not read this?

Or these?


They're being targeted and DDos'd and are trying to get around it.

*sigh*


I have no problem with you insulting me.... But don't you dare insult Glenn and Dan.

You do not insult people whom I consider friends, and you do not insult their hardwork. DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR?

But seriously, things need to calm to frack down... If you don;t want to invest money with Eso that's fine. But we are still on the same team. Who is our real enemy? The governments who are trying to pin down Bitcoin and crypto and kill it so that it's not a competitor to their fiat currencies.

Fiat currency is the real culprit, the real ponzi. Look up Mike Maloney's "The Biggest Scam in History" on YouTube, he explains ti nicely. Fiat currencies steal our wealth, Bitcoin doesn't.

But no one here is saying that Bitcoin is going to steal our wealth - they are saying that esoteric investments is (if we are silly enough to give it to them).

Every one of these schemes gets defended by people saying "There's no evidence it's a scam." Of course there isn't, until they run off with the money.
If you get lucky you can make a bit of money, if you get in and out quick. New scams like this appear every day - this one just got our attention because they take Bitcoin. Most of them disappear after a few days or a few weeks. Bitcoin-trader lasted an exceptionally long time, due to the confidence they built up in the Bitcoin community with their marketing activities. Esoteric is clearly hoping enough of that confidence is left (there still seems to be some, amazingly, judging by the talk in the bitcoin-trader thread). The thing to remember is there is nothing to suggest esoteric will last anything like as long as bitcoin-trader did though, because most of that "confidence" has clearly evaporated.

What are you talking about!? I still fully believe I will make money on my 0.25BTC :P

Esoteric Investments is out of air.
I have made a copy of the site: http://web.archive.org/web/20141030023245/https://www.esotericinvestments.com/
Seems that I am the only one that is scamed by Eso

So good news! The public site will be brought back soon in the next day or two probably with ddos protection from www.zionvps.com (very likely to choose them however still snooping around a bit more to make sure their service is everything they say it is, with two other choices as fallbacks). Our goal is to have all accounts and the site fully functional before the end of the week either with ZionVPS or another hosting company that can mitigate attacks.

We are still not accepting any new clients or additional deposits, and this will go on indefinitely. I know this must be a bummer to many of you who actively marketed your affiliate link and planned to continue to do so. However for the pool it is the right decision and we apologize for any inconveniences it may cause.

PM me your account username and email info we will send you the private site while the public one is put back up with a new host. We have been cautiously sending them out as we can't ensure an investor isn't involved in the attack. So if we sent it out to one person and then attacks just started happening again, we could pretty much narrow it down to who it may be. We still are not going to send them all out at once because the downtime of another day or two from another attack is still annoying.

But since we're getting the protected VPS if we send it out and attacks happen for another ransom, it will be pointless because they will be mitigated in the next day or two with Zion hosting.

Do you really think you can get DDoS protection for anything between $6.50 and $19.50? Then you must be naive!

Eso is back online!

Lol, great first post.
You're looking pretty amateurish at the moment Dan. Starting an 'investment' site and taking people's coin, with no DDOS strategy.... :(

He needs to create plenty new accounts to get rid of the negative trust and to rig the poll.
Doesnt look very good at the top of your own thread when the poll show only 10% of voters believe you are honest, and 100% of those are the operators / referral cockroaches.

lol silly rabbit, i'm the same user digicoinz, the idiot moderator banned me from posting cause I posted the october ops link in two separate posts on this thread.

lol wat a joke this forum is.

but yup the site is back online. :)

nope, i set up that pole. and we all know the negative voters are puppet, nutilda, and the other trollers of this thread.

so nice try.

Fwiw, I voted undecided.
They won't get any of my coins and I wouldn't be surprised if they fail, but I think it would be from over optimism and amateurishness more than setting out to be a Ponzi from the get go, like this piece of shit, for example http://expertbtc.com/ .

They are indeed amateur scammers, but that doesnt change the fact they are scammers.
If you truly believe they traded "something" for 2 months and never made a loss any single day, then I have a cloud hashing contract to sell to you.

libel libel libel libel libel libel


love how idiots make baseless accusations.


puppet, how about you stfu, shove your comments up your ass, and when you actually have some proof to what you say, then please, please post them.

punk ass loser


that applies to all the others as well, you know who you are ;)

Lol, I hear where you're coming from. I see they like Cannabiscoin, maybe they smoke long positions that don't work out.
 :D


More quality posting from the sock.

 ::)

You wouldnt believe how often I heard that same shit before.  Check my posting history, unlike you, Ive been around the block, now find me one single instance where I was wrong. Im not gonna "stfu" just because you dont want me to prevent you from earning a few satoshi by duping others.

Besides, the proof is there for all to see. Aside from the obvious and obviously unprovable ponzi attempt, there is no discussion they are selling unregistered investment contracts to unsophisticated investors.. That makes them scammers by definition (not that I believe running an online lottery from NJ is legal if you are not a registered casino).

again you all you have done is make accusations. you provide no proof in anything you say. all you do is cry ponzi ponzi ponzi. yet where is this ponzi you speak of?
show a screenshot, something anything, besides just words. cause you look stupid right now. and fyi, i do trading myself on trex/cryptsy same as the owners of the company. i actively talk with them at the same time they're doing it, and as they give me tips and what coins to keep an eye on. like for example right now blocknet is hot to watch. its over 150btc volume and they just started trading at 3am. furthermore trex put a refund wall that has never happened before while a trade is active. so its actually insuring the price that block ico'd at.

this is gonna rocket to the moon! and then when you see the price change that happens there, you can see the profits possible since you think you know so much.

and what are you talking about, the bitcoin lottery is just a web based game with bitcoins. its not a lottery in the sense of what a state lottery is. the only bitcoins in that lottery is between the users only, the house is not involved.

Hey digi, I found this in my inbox:


Unlike esoshit, I can not prove its a scam, so it seems like a fabulous business opportunity for you.  Let us all know how it worked out!

Man you trollers are such sheeple following each other in whatever the one says.

Yea I don't give two shits about my trust rating, and I don't give two shits about that poll, and I don't give two shits about a bitcointalk thread I didn't make any of these threads or polls. I'm happy digi did made it so I can reach out to people that need to know information about Esoteric but thats it. Didn't get involved on the thread to gain an approval rating of any sort I know what I'm doing is honest, so I don't give two shits if you do. And anyway we aren't taking more deposits so I don't need any of you to think its honest or not the people that are in the pool currently will continue to get the payouts we get from the trades and everyone else gets to continue bitching here that they wish they had as much bitcoin as we do to trade in the markets. Hopefully a few of you get the honor of us dumping on you some nice big bags to hold.

By the way sunny is that bet still open 2:1 odds that we are a ponzi scheme that's gonna run away with everyone's money. I STILL WANT IN! or you can say no and actually prove that your just full of shit posting on here just to post on here. Because you were too scared to put your money where your mouth was before so I am assuming you still are, just want to expose that to everyone on the thread since I actually have some grounds and proof behind it you being full of it, more proof then you can say you ever had.

Also since your so knowledgeable about DDOS attacks and protection, they're really not that hard to mitigate and stop when you have the infrastructure in place like any data center that guarantees 99.9% up time has. So by saying that just proves you have no idea, and again you all are saying shit just to say it adding to the horrible name that bitcoin talk has been getting the past few months.

and we do make losses no good trader makes only gains from every trade they do, but a good trader makes more gains then his losses from stopping his losses at a point that's less then the gains, and again this proves you guys have no idea! This is why we started a pool because all of you dummies have no idea how to trade right and we tried putting out instructionals and tried to teach and say what coins to get into and at what prices but none of it really took. So now its at a point just give us the coin and we'll take our large cut of the profits and you just get a small consistent return. Anyone that's been involved with that has been happy from it so the service we have been providing is fine as far as I can see. And since we really have no responsibilities to make you trolls happy and making all you trolls happy is impossible anyway, we're done trying. So screw trying to produce transparency screw showing you all of our past trades etc none of you have any reason to know that stuff, and the only ones who do are the ones that aren't even asking for it. It also takes a lot of time away from our analysis of markets. So here on out that's how its working the people invested will get paid out till their terms expire as they have been and we're focusing on ensuring those payouts. We're done with all this other crap to please all the trolls here.

OK going back to not responding to stupid FUD with nothing behind its reasoning cause you folks like to see your own text and point to your crypto friends and say "Hey I wrote this look look!" as if it makes you a valued opinion here in the ecosystem. Talk to me about the markets on here and you'll see who has an actual valuable opinion and who has no idea what crypto is and what they spend hours on forums being involved in.

Oh and  www.esotericinvestments.com (http://www.esotericinvestments.com) is back online with everyone's accounts up to date with all the payouts from the last few days.

Im still game for a bet. One condition is that you prove your liability to your clients victims significantly exceeds the size of the bet. Im not gonna bet you 100 BTC if your liability is only 10 BTC.

We all are still waiting for a trading proof. No real-time one, just to verify your daily results are based on real trading results.

Yes, this is the way that legitimate businessmen who run genuine investment funds WHICH DEFINITELY AREN'T PONZIS HONEST GUV talk to people lol

Here is what happens if you are dumb enough to still believe the "because bitcoin" argument shields you from regulation:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-2824044/U-S-charges-Texas-man-running-bitcoin-Ponzi-scheme.html

Already fined $40M and now faces 20 years in prison. But yeah, regulations dont apply to bitcoin, right?

Careful! Im willing to wager a lot of coins on this too, BUT, they seem to hold still very small amounts. If your bet is bigger than their liability, or even in the same ballpark, they would profit by actually paying out their customers from their own pockets and collecting our bet as the profit. It would also provide them with a big publicity bonus they could use for their next round.

I'm wondering how such a bet could be resolved. Wouldn't it be rather easy for them to hide liabilities?

I suppose they could pay everyone out in full and shut down temporarily, but how do we know if they really pay everyone out?

Im actually concerned about the opposite. If esoshit has only 10 BTC in 'customer' funds, and therefore an unfunded liability of just 1 or 2 BTC in "trading profits", agreeing to a 10 or 100 BTC bet would be a no brainer for them: just pay out the outstanding accounts and the 2 extra BTC from their own pocket, then collect the 100 BTC bet.  With Pirate or bitcoin trader I was pretty confident that no bet I could afford would cover their liabilities, but here, Im pretty sure thats not the case.


If no one complains about not getting their money back after x weeks or months, that would satisfy me. Of course they could do much better by opening their books, assign each customer some hashed ID so that everyone can verify their accounts are being presented.

You must be mistaken, I never offered any bet, that was somebody else.

Regarding DDoS, ever asked yourself why banks, airlines and the large casinos are using Prolexic paying $6K minimum/monthly for their DDoS protection, instead of using your $20 service?

Did you ever think maybe that's because ppl's lives are at risk if hackers fucked with those systems?

There's no need for such an expensive service for this. use your head man.

To those wondering if this is a scam or not...

Withdrawals
Amount (BTC)   Conf.   Credited   Verified   Created   Remove
0.0056 BTC   0   No   No   Oct 27, 08:00 AM   Remove
Address: 1JRXbQZUezENGjEmpzcC8NFFdz7JzoZWkb
* Withdrawals are processed manually.
** Withdrawals may take up to 72 hours to be processed.

 :P

we dont wonder at all, we know its a scam, if others are stupid to send free money ... their problem

Who'd have thought:

https://www.esotericinvestments.com/

Fortunately these wannabee scammers were so incompetent it appears they didnt raise more than a handful of BTC (according to chat logs on their site) and are more likely to ask/beg/steal the missing coins from their moms than risking jail time.

Thank you for providing some fantastic entertainment over the last few weeks. It has been truly amusing watching you fail so badly.

I see that one of the owners of Esoteric (known as Deej Trader) is starting an alt coin. He has moved on quickly...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=851123.0

His Facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007435800607&fref=nf

So hopefully everyone learned their lesson from bitcoin-trader, and steered well clear of this? At least I guess so as no one seems to be saying they lost anything in this thread.

that's because eso is actually refunding people. they issued an official statement on the site.

we'll be able to request our withdrawals and they will be processed. just keep an eye out for the notice for when we can issue the withdrawals.

so relax. its not another BT.

it is exactly a BT clone, maybe u just got scared u didnt covered your tracks right and u might be caught, no doubt u were/are a scam

i'm not the operator of the company, only an investor. get your ducks in a row.

Same.
Eso was asked to close down, and they had 90 days to comply or fill out the registration for several thousand dollars, which wasn't easy to fork over. THey opted to close the trading down and refund the money. Within the next few days they should have all funds liquidated and returned.
So no this was not liike BT, and no one is getting hurt.

Why would it take so long to liquidate the funds? they had people trading 24/7 and never lost money, it should be ridiculously easy to get all that money back to send back out.

lol, I just noticed there's a "remove" in the 'Deposits' frame. When clicked it asks for confirmation to delete the deposit.

...rofl, why would I want to delete a deposit.  ::)

Also, still waiting on that withdraw made on Oct. 27th :P

because everything they said was BS ?

Company statement for pool closing procedure to take place over the next two weeks.
https://esotericinvestments.com/close.pdf

We will be active on the site's chat for further questions from invested parties.

Quite amazing how they were able to pay profits every day even holding some altcoins at a loss. I'm not sure how great minds that could pay out profits while holding coins at a loss aren't going to be able to wind this down without making everyone whole, but I guess that's why I'm not running a ponzi scheme investment firm.

What profits? There were no profits even by their own admission. Check the chat log on their website:


So whatever "gains" have already been paid out are being clawed back, and quite possibly more than that according to the PDF:


https://esotericinvestments.com/close.pdf

they claim not to have made a satoshi for themselves. Yet if you add up the published trading profits, you get +15.7% over the past 5 weeks (not compounded). And somehow if you put the two together, no one made any profits and somehow there is probably even a net loss.

Rrrrrrrrrrright. Esoteric was no ponzi, and this is a real mammography unit:

http://steadfastfinances.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/obvious-scam-artist-free-mammogram.jpg

BTW, if you think its gonna fly with the bureau that you pay back less than the principal  or that funds not withdrawn after 30 days are forfeited, you are in for another surprise.

(14:52:07 PM)  Maxx: "If there is not enough bitcoin after liquidation to refund the total amount deposited into the pool; the ratio of bitcoin after liquidation to the total deposited amount shall be taken and applied to each account. " Not sure I understand this line. So we might not get our entire deposited amount back?
(17:09:09 PM)  Phantom: when a trade ends from the time we bought in to the time we sold off. that profit or loss is put to a profits pool to do payouts over time. this profits pool was always positive.
(17:13:18 PM)  Phantom: all the trades that were bought in but not sold out of are losses right now. We had a stop loss point that if all investments caused the estimated pool value to fall below 40% we'd get out of all coins and stop our losses.
(17:13:49 PM)  Phantom: this didnt happen we are stopping for other reasons
(17:15:18 PM)  Phantom: but until a trade is ended it isnt factored into payouts. you can move in and out of coins with thousands daily. its a misconception of the pool from the start from many people.
(17:18:39 PM)  Phantom: you might not but as some of the liquidations were decent losses. though we really want to leave this on a good note to not leave a negative feeling for flirtcoin or new project.
(17:21:29 PM)  Phantom: So we will find anyway possibly to pay back the full deposited amount regardless of losses. Further costs out of our own pocket and in multiple installations if neccesary. This is to all be worked out fully still.
(17:23:17 PM)  Phantom: for one of my last messages: cant* move in and out of coin with thousand
(17:30:54 PM)  Phantom: Fact of the matter is at absolute worst this is not a total loss. It was a risk not a guarenteed thing, we always said this. And bitcoin is going to be returned month(s) before any terms were expred. So we are exceding all obligations of us. We're not going to do much more than that for your happiness if you arent satisfied with that situation.

Translation: "You'll get what we decide to give you, and if that's not good enough, too fucking bad."

So, basically they went from saying all investor funds would be withdrawable (earnings+principle), to users will get their principal back FOR SURE, to "now we're not sure we'll be able to cover everybody's deposits, so we'll justify it by saying it was all a risk", and telling investors that if they don't like it, too bad.

I signed up to determine if they were related at all to bitcoin-trader.biz ...

Anyone who doesnt get his principal back to the last satoshi, please contact
Arlene.Ferris-Waks at lps.state.nj.us
Director of Investor Outreach at the NJ bureau of securities.
She is well aware of this scam.

I did enjoy the tale of how the compliance and regulatory licenses, etc, caught them completely by surprise.  Yeah, cuz nobody thought to...ya know..google that shit BEFORE opening business up to investors?

"Hey, we're gonna be handling potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of crypto here. Maybe one of us should spend 5 minutes researching what we need to do to be legal..........naaaaah, let's just wing it. What could possibly go wrong?"

That, people, is called "half-assing it".

Glad I didn't invest in this mickey-mouse op.  

Because, apparently, they're doing their investors a favor by returning their deposits early at ALL, instead of making them wait the full 90 days for shares to mature. As soon as they were informed they were in fact operating in violation of the Securities Act, they should have immediately cancelled all shares and credited the investors back.  The fact that they feel the need to go through some sham of having to "liquidate" assets suggests they haven't got the capital to cover deposits. And of course, anybody calling them on this bullshit is being insulted and abused. Because that's the way to endear yourself to people who gave you money to play with and whom you might want to support your new fly-by-night shitcoin. TwerkCoin? TwatCoin? FleekCoin?

"wish they had as much bitcoin as we do to trade in the markets"

this would imply you had significant BTC holdings beyond what your victims deposited.  That should make it easy to guarantee that all your investors will get their full deposits back ASAP.

Is this where you now post blockchain links to addresses showing depleted BTC stores, or do you feel the need to brag again and post a blockchain link to some fat wallet  that may or may not even belong to you or your partners?

From PimpCoin, glad to see someone's confident about the outcome of their Esoteric Experience..

Lol. You mean they are saying they are going to refund people. Has anyone actually received a penny back yet?
This is standard practice with Ponzis. Although the ship has sunk, the captain tries to persuade that everything is going to be fine, for as long as he can possibly have any hope of getting away with it.
Why? To buy themselves some time - the longer it takes for the complaints to start hitting law enforcement agencies en masse, the more time they have to cover their tracks and hopefully make a clean getaway with as much of the loot as they can stash in their pockets.

These guys will not hand over a single penny voluntarily, I guarantee it. The only way investors will get anything back is if they are brought to justice by law enforcement or the courts.

Digi doesn't even seem worried about the closure judging by his latest comment on the chat box:

(06:07:12 AM)  Digicoinz: can't wait to see this place come back and bigger and badder then ever :D

i like how its a bunch of words put together, and no website. also other way further details.

When you try this next time, go through the trouble to actually fake the trade histories.

These guys

 http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-13/forex-investors-may-face-1-billion-loss-as-trade-site-vanishes.html?hootPostID=30ceb1967be98ed871bb8c50375b9e96

apparently got away with a billion dollars by faking the trade histories. A little more effort and you could have conned a lot more, better luck next time.

Anyone get any money back yet?  Says update on 11/10 but nothing seems to be posted on the website.. 

ROFL

Does there need to be a concrete effort to raise awareness of HYIPs in the Bitcoin/Crypto community? It seems people who regularly operate these sort of scams are moving into the field, perhaps because they thought it would be full of credulous idiots. Sadly it seems they were right! I know it isn't that new (was there another big bitcoin HYIP scam before Bitcoin-trader?) but the danger is still there, and people are still falling for it - presumably because a lot of us in the bitcoin/crypto community haven't come across HYIPs before?

ALL HYIP are SCAMS , none LEGIT ... fools still thinks they found golden egg ...

Problem is that most people know full well its a ponzi, but invest nonetheless hoping to get out in time and/or profit by collecting referral rewards.
So you get hordes of cheerleaders pretending they believe its genuine, ie, lying and deceiving others for their own profit.

I think what Bitcoin Trader had going for it was a 'Degree of plausibility'   When you looked at it at first glance, you would think "I can see how that could work"  Particularly back in the days when MT Gox  was trading 100 dollars above everyone else.. 

If you built a spreadsheet and tried to work out how the arbitrage would work - it didn't add up -- but who does that?Once you are in, you want to believe what you want to believe, and many people would lie to themselves and everybody else at least long enough to get their money out..

Esoteric came in and pretended to be a legit BT --  I don't think many believed them -- thus the short lifespan..  Hopefully everyone has learned their lesson.  I think several of the "Cloud Hashing" services are also HYIP..  So there will be at least one more round of "Where's all our money"  Hopefully by then most will have learned their lesson and will be ready to pass along their advice to most anyone who asks..

Its a shame if anyone lost a significant amount.

I mean I really they dont even have a website? or atleast its not posted as I can tell..like  ???

But the securityinvestment site on the bloomberg story, is prob crazier then mt gox. $1 billion loss is way too much.

They had a website,but took it down after people started questioning the bs that was on it.

Might be a little while longer before you get your refunds guys.  :(
Phantom Trader/ Dan Pace has found some more esoteric ways to spend his time. If by chance, it turns out there isn't quite enough left in the "investment" account to pay you all  ::), maybe he'll do you a deal on some of these

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1660376_760110484060580_7470331572748474128_n.jpg?oh=25f704d706b7a5871d37c45099e659a7&oe=54D20926


"Flirtcoin provides adults with a new and exciting way to show their interest in each other!"  :D





 

  

Dan Pace the chick magnet.
https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10270591_10203562939731091_5640593967843969888_n.jpg?oh=9f97f3abeb510d0449206448ada0e7eb&oe=55163D13

He might just offer to refund you with 'his' flirtcoins...

Yea I just read through this whole thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=867068.msg9646187#msg9646187 I was going to go on doxing but it seems every one is well aware of these scammy scammers

Here give him a call 8484486299

alt accounts of his negative trust them up

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=393179
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=392746

Dan pace does exist and I wish he was not involved in this, best of luck to you brother.

Soon he will wish it too.

Flirtcoin's looking bearish

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/s128x128/1459056_10202190486220611_589103455_n.jpg?oh=2f5a8373bd80c0ca21db39d8d3427948&oe=54DAFC8D&__gda__=1428182173_95879cdcf8efa2cfe41a8f6ed6c2d625

Yup I am taking this one probono send me any and all info on these guys

Free doxxes for him and all his family when I get back to my office

So get ready to call there mama and ask why they have such fucked up sons

The one guys name is not crystal or whatever its Pat Smaling

Twins?


http://s13.postimg.org/eq787fzrb/crystak.jpg

Mr Crystal

http://s30.postimg.org/e04lkrqw1/patsmalling.png
Pat

http://s28.postimg.org/j6gfp15dp/pat2.png

Incoming doxes on these jokers stand by in 3................... 2....................... 1..................

Daniel L Pace (aka Dan Pace)
Age: 24 (Born Nov 14, 1990)

Contact Information icon
Phone
(732) 295-5363
Relatives icon
Pace Tompkins
Joelle Villani (Age: 32)
Daron Pace
Joseph Pace (Age: 68)
Dominic Pace (Age: 71)
Juliana Pace (Age: 34)
Debra Pace
David Tompkins (Age: 50)

Owner Information
Owner   Pace Dominic J
Pace Juliana M
Est. Market Value   $625,835
Tax Amount   $11,143
Tax Year   2013
Property Details
Acres   0.149
Bedrooms   -
Bathrooms   -
Year Built   1965
Land Sq. Ft.   6,499
Living Sq. Ft.   2,065
Neighbors
Gerard Conticchio
Local Census Data
Total households   2,285
Families   55%
Male / Female   43% / 57%
 
Income
Avg. Household   $81,717
Less $10K   5%
$10k to $14,999   7%
$15k to $24,999   7%
$25k to $34,999   5%
$35k to $49,999   16%
$50k to $74,999   24%
$75k to $99,999   9%
$100k to $149,999   13%
$150k to $199,999   7%
$200k or more   7%
 
Education
High School Degree   33%
College Degree   26%
Graduate Degree   12%

Glenn Samuel Crystal
Age: 23 (Born May, 1991)

Contact Information icon
Phone
(732) 899-7242
(877) 968-8673
(732) 899-7911
Relatives icon
Carol Crystal (Age: 53)
Robert Crystal (Age: 52)
Employment icon
Vorexa LLC

Owner Information
Owner   Crystal Robert S
Crystal Carol D
Est. Market Value   $288,185
Tax Amount   $5,131
Tax Year   2013
Property Details
Acres   0.115
Bedrooms   -
Bathrooms   -
Year Built   1978
Land Sq. Ft.   5,001
Living Sq. Ft.   1,908
Local Census Data
Total households   2,285
Families   55%
Male / Female   43% / 57%
 
Income
Avg. Household   $81,717
Less $10K   5%
$10k to $14,999   7%
$15k to $24,999   7%
$25k to $34,999   5%
$35k to $49,999   16%
$50k to $74,999   24%
$75k to $99,999   9%
$100k to $149,999   13%
$150k to $199,999   7%
$200k or more   7%
 
Education
High School Degree   33%
College Degree   26%
Graduate Degree   12%

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His father the back cracker

Robert Scott Crystal
Age: 52 (Born Jul 20, 1962)
Save to My List
Contact Information icon
Phone
(732) 899-7911
(908) 233-4494
(201) 759-6785 mobile
(908) 899-7242
(908) 899-6597
(732) 899-7242
(732) 899-6597
(732) 947-1518 mobile
Email
robert.crystal@comcast.net
rcrystalhandson@yahoo.com
robert.crystal@us.schroders.com
robert@crystalchiropractic.com

Owner Information
Owner   Crystal Robert S
Crystal Carol D
Est. Market Value   $288,185
Tax Amount   $5,131
Tax Year   2013
Property Details
Acres   0.115
Bedrooms   -
Bathrooms   -
Year Built   1978
Land Sq. Ft.   5,001
Living Sq. Ft.   1,908
Local Census Data
Total households   2,285
Families   55%
Male / Female   43% / 57%
 
Income
Avg. Household   $81,717
Less $10K   5%
$10k to $14,999   7%
$15k to $24,999   7%
$25k to $34,999   5%
$35k to $49,999   16%
$50k to $74,999   24%
$75k to $99,999   9%
$100k to $149,999   13%
$150k to $199,999   7%
$200k or more   7%
 
Education
High School Degree   33%
College Degree   26%
Graduate Degree   12%

They move a shit ton....





Next time you want to be a dick to someone and think the interwebs can protect you think again little frat bitch boy and friends.

Ya....ok riverboat...


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=665033.0


you've been served  8)

oh god am I going to have to post my Drivers license again you tardos lol. Be careful I heard you were in a fraturnity, I am a PIKE and I know if I was involved in a criminal activity they would de-scroll me :/. What is it if you can't go greek go tke lmfao.

Phone call to the the grand council from someone in the gov may cause you a problem in your life just saying. In fact I actually went to school with one of your grand council member now that I think of it lol It would prob pretty damn easy.  


Oh yea its past nov 10th where is the money you own? Post the address where the funds are at so we can check.

Red Herring?

Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue. In literature, this fallacy is often used in detective or suspense novels to mislead readers or characters or to induce them to make false conclusions.

Let us consider a simple example of a red herring. A teacher catches a student cheating during a test. The student in response says, “I know I’ve made a mistake. But think of my parents. They’re going to kill me”. The student uses a red herring in his response. He tries to appeal to pity to distract his teacher from the real issue.



Pay people there money you thief....