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Munching popcorn and setting up lawnchairs to watch the fireworks.
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So annoyed by Josh's bullshit. He doesn't even know what a hedge is. You invest in something and you reduce the risk of that investment by betting that the value might go down by purchasing another financial instrument. ie. you buy two things. Typically you'd invest in an equity and then put a short option on the same equity, so that you minimise your losses either way.
If I was hedging on the bitcoin price I'd buy Bitcoins and also buy an option on the price going down. In what way is putting my money into BFL's bank account for a year reducing my risk on the movement of the price of bitcoin? If I get a refund I still haven't made any money on Bitcoin because I didn't have any Bitcoin because BFL had my money!!!
Josh is a stupid asshole who thinks he's cleverer than he is. It's annoying me that he is annoying me :-)
The only "hedging" that could be done would have the same effect as selling bitcoin at the time the order is placed and buying them back later when you requested a refund. This would only apply if you are paying in bitcoin. If people were actually placing orders to do this I would be surprised as you could have the same result by trading on an exchange. Not really, if you ordered in early June and got refunded around July 6th in BTC and then re-ordered a week or so later, you'd still have an order and a fair amount of BTC. If BFL is holding the BTC as a deposit until they deliver it is no skin off BFL's nose if a customer asks for a refund. They shouldn't cash in the BTC until they deliver the goods. The issue arises not from people wishing to hedge their BTC (if wouldn't be a hedge if BFL refunded them in BTC), but from BFL holding 100% deposits (or investments depending on how BFL spent the money) for a year. That creates a currency risk, which of course BFL tried to foist onto their customers. At some point, we shall see what the AG of Kansas thinks of this sort of behavior  |
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any idea if I can force BFL into refunding my Bitcoin purchased orders? Bitcoin is money, and they should also be refunding the Bitcoin amount in my opinion. Anyone got any good advice on how to proceed? I want this company out of my life. If I have to I'll sue them, but any other tips would be appreciated.
No way Jose, If you buy stuff priced in EU on Amazon EU, you can pay USD equivalent after exchanged but you will never have a refund of the same USD amount. Your refund will be USD equivalent of the exact EU price after the current exchange rate. Got that? It appears as though PayPal has a different policy and that they use conversion rate at time of purchase, so there is precedent for this type of refund. Paypal currency conversion policy: https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=rV0JKsnTq3Z197277Pg2sQ4mJ1HJWQ5xpxnJnzGxvW9J1FhW03yL!-1588418?t=solutionTab&ft=homeTab&ps&solutionId=163394&locale=en_GB&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=GB&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9012 Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment. Got that? Amazon separates the exchange from the transaction. So if you want to buy something in EUR, first Amazon will change your USD into EUR and then you have EUR. Thus, if you get a refund, you will be refunded in EUR. If the seller was in Europe but accepted USD on Amazon, they could not refund you Euros just because they changed all their dollars into Euros. They would have to refund you in USD. Ebay/Paypal bundles the exchange with the transaction. So if the transaction is reversed, the customer gets back exactly the USD they spent and the seller bears the exchange rate risk. That is one of the reasons why Ebay will not let you list items that cannot be delivered within 30 days. |
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I have ordered my 25GHps miner at May ~15.
In May they already had "no refunds" policy, no? This policy violates the FTC rules of doing business over the internet. You can file a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate on your behalf with BFL. If you ask for a refund before BFL ships your product, BFL must refund your money. http://www.ftc.gov/complaint |
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Unfortunately it is a Feb minirig so no small claims.
Have you contacted the FTC and Kansas AG? The FTC will go to bat for you to get a refund. I was waiting on hearing that the FTC or AG had done anything for anyone so far considering the numbers of pissed off customers. That avenue has turned up a big nada currently. Have you heard anyone have any success with a refund from BFL that was not related to paypal or CC? The filing of FTC complaints has coincided with refunds awarded. We cannot know exactly what made BFL cave in, but people have received BTC refunds. It costs you nothing to fill out an online form, but it may yield results. Perhaps BFL is just refusing to refund orders it knows are from people who won't put up a fight  In any case, the FTC would advocate for you directly with BFL before it began any sort of investigation. If you get your refund, case closed. |
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if I paid with bitcoin, how do I get refund from bfl. I mailed them, they denied my request.
thanks for help.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises. You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms |
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Unfortunately it is a Feb minirig so no small claims.
Have you contacted the FTC and Kansas AG? The FTC will go to bat for you to get a refund. |
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you can make good profit if you make asicminer farm instaed of one asicminer
So on one device he loses money, but he will make up for it in volume?  |
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Both I would say. Lawyering up may just be throwing good money after bad.
If it isn't a mini-rig, go to small claims court. |
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His numbers don't really add up.
Time til mining 2.5 Months?
The rigs at the price point you mention are supposed to be here at latest in 1.5 Months, at earliest ~20Days.
Secondly that percentage of difficulty increase per day is not sustainable past about 6 months and will dramatically drop off. By my estimates even with hosting costs you'd be making about ~$300/month with a jupiter (And it should already be paid off by then)
I think the OP is saying "If you bought a rig today, the earliest it would arrive would be 2.5 months". The rigs due to arrive in 20 days were sold out weeks ago. |
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I must add two small notes:
1) The true number of employees involved in the process are at least several thousand. You must include all the employees that are involved in FedEx for example (or any other carrier we use to ship different components around), to employees in all the companies in the supply chain, PCB and assembly divisions, Wafer Foundry, etc ... The list goes on and on.
2) The sensitivity in our situation comes from the fact that initial delays were incurred. Long story short, at best we could have added 2 months error margin to the initial timeline given to us (which we did). In order to know what the exact delay is going to be (in any project), you need to know the future. We would've purchased a crystal-ball to let us know in advance.. but the company that makes crystal-balls just went out of business...
Regards,
Nasser
I am sorry to have to correct you, but at best you could have added a 10 month error margin. Then you would be shipping on time, instead of very very late. Other companies manage to use FedEx without being 10 months late. They also manage to make PCBs without being 10 months late. Indeed the list goes on and on. Even at this late juncture, you are still pushing your own failures off onto other companies. If you can't manage to ship things via FedEx, you probably shouldn't be selling things over the internet. We could have added 10 years of error margin as well. But to know the exact number, you need to know the future. Regards, Nasser P.S. The FedEx example was used to demonstrate how little logistic elements can affect an active production line, it was not related to the initial delay in any way. If only anyone had any idea what was actually responsible for the delay. So far, reports have dribbled out that the boards were late, then the boards were wrong, and the chips were late, and the chips had problems, then the boards were redesigned, but the cases are wrong, so the cases were redesigned, but the power supplies have issues, now power supplies are just missing. Train wreck, made worse by opacity and the worst PR debacle since Paul Christoforo. It doesn't matter if you outsource or if you did it all in house. Failure is failure. Shirking responsibility and blaming your subcontractors is not confidence building. Bitfury has proven that it is possible to make high performance chips and deliver them on time and in high volume. |
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I must add two small notes:
1) The true number of employees involved in the process are at least several thousand. You must include all the employees that are involved in FedEx for example (or any other carrier we use to ship different components around), to employees in all the companies in the supply chain, PCB and assembly divisions, Wafer Foundry, etc ... The list goes on and on.
2) The sensitivity in our situation comes from the fact that initial delays were incurred. Long story short, at best we could have added 2 months error margin to the initial timeline given to us (which we did). In order to know what the exact delay is going to be (in any project), you need to know the future. We would've purchased a crystal-ball to let us know in advance.. but the company that makes crystal-balls just went out of business...
Regards,
Nasser
I am sorry to have to correct you, but at best you could have added a 10 month error margin. Then you would be shipping on time, instead of very very late. Other companies manage to use FedEx without being 10 months late. They also manage to make PCBs without being 10 months late. Indeed the list goes on and on. Even at this late juncture, you are still pushing your own failures off onto other companies. If you can't manage to ship things via FedEx, you probably shouldn't be selling things over the internet. |
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Having a 100% error-free production line, means around several thousand employees in several different companies must function as precise as atomic clocks do, with absolutely no human-error. Even robots cannot achieve that, let alone humans. We will do our best to make sure a huge number of products get shipped everyday.
Regards,
Nasser
I have forwarded your comments to Bitfury. I can't promise they will stop making you look bad. |
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back to the thread topic at hand:
I'd have better luck bedding Jody and sweet talking her into bumping my orders than BFL ever ever getting out all orders 4.5 gh, 60 gh, 30 gh and 1500gh by the end of the month.
Bitfury is showing BFL how the game should be played. Egads. It's not worth it bro. Don't judge. |
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 - 365GH vs. 60GH. - Silent vs. loud as fuck - Waiting for 13 months after payment vs. waiting for one month after payment - Both units are around $60/GH. Both use ~270W when mining. They are almost the same size. ^^This makes it more likely that BFL will clear their order backlog. Everyone wants to cancel their BFL order and use the refund to buy Bitfury! You'd need a lot of Singles refunds ( 8 ) to buy one 365Gh BF unit You don't have to get them fully populated. You could just order a couple of boards AFAIK. |
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- 365GH vs. 60GH. - Silent vs. loud as fuck - Waiting for 13 months after payment vs. waiting for one month after payment - Both units are around $60/GH. Both use ~270W when mining. They are almost the same size. ^^This makes it more likely that BFL will clear their order backlog. Everyone wants to cancel their BFL order and use the refund to buy Bitfury! |
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For all who may have missed it: below is an example of how far from the reality are some of the readers/posters/wannabes on this forum.
Yes, so other people may be ignorant or ill-informed, especially those in the newbie forums. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to insult them, or otherwise hurl abuse. Leave them in peace, or gently show them the error of their ways and point them to a useful source of fact and/or considered opinion. I think you are very naive and idealistic. Those who "hurl abuse" are mostly the good guys. In the past they probably also polite, but lost the patience with those who refuse to read any of the openly available information. The "bad guys" will be first very polite and solictious and then simply rip them off when they acurately measure their weaknesses. This is how capitalism works. The way you propose is how some religions/sects operate. There is a key difference between that example and many I have seen on this forum. That poster is asking questions. Questions, no matter how naive are fine and generally result in answers, or at least the thread where they can find answers. There will also be some ribbing about use of google, etc. The problems arise when someone fresh out of the newbie forums begins making pronouncements, like "28nm will never run SHA256!" or other nonsense. That sort of post receives far more abuse. |
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I can't even begin to imagine how p1ssed I'd be if I ponied up $32k for 1.5Th of gear that supposedly consumes 1500w on August 1, 2012 and THIRTEEN MONTHS + 2 days later the bozos I paid were just getting around to shipping me 500Gh/s that consumes 2200w. Let's hope that person didn't pay in BTCs.
Oh Dem Bozos who ordered won't be seeing the 3300+ BTC spent "preordering". Well not from running that hardware anyway.  They can "see" those 3300 BTC anytime they want to by looking up the transaction here: http://blockchain.info/ |
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Well 72 more hours has passed since BFLs last update.
In those 72 hours they shipped almost no Jalapenos. Absolutely no Little Singles,
4 days of Singles, and 5 days of Mini-Rigs
Tuesday, September 3, 2013 Shipping Update
by BFL_Jody , 09-03-2013 at 09:24 PM
Jalapenos 4.5 and 5 gh/s: Feb 12-14, 2013 very few shipped
Little Singles 30 and 25 gh/s: Nov. 5, 2012 none shipped
Singles 60 and 50 gh/s: July 27, 2012 pay date Many Singles shipped
MiniRigs: All June orders (2nd 500gh/s unit), all July orders 1st 500 gh/s
August 1st for 1st 500 g/s units
A little more than 26 days to go for their 55 employees utilizing the sea of parts that were supposed to arrive to knock out 9-13 months (depending on what you believe based on Joshs comments) of undelivered orders.
I wonder if there was one mini-rig ordered on August 1st, or zero.  |
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Maybe it's just a mind trick but if you spend 50 btc at 100$ rate and you get only 43 at 200 i say you end up better
Ok, send me 50 btc (at $130 now), and when it his $260, I'll send you 43 btc. Initial Value: $6500. Ending Value: $11,180 Guaranteed Profit: $4680. As many people as want can take advantage of this guaranteed ROI. Just send your 50 btc to 1vgzHWzzcsYejaqtP7RHGzsE549ySKQa2. Oh yeah? Well if you send me 49 BTC, I will send you 44 BTC when the exchange rate hits $350!! Initial Value: $6,370 Ending Value: $15,400!!! Guaranteed Profit: $9030!! Almost twice the profit!! PM me if you are interested in the deal of the century. How about I send you 44 and you send me 49 when the rate hits $70? If you want to open a service that does that, feel free. Until then, my offer of GUARANTEED PROFITS stands. Send me 49 BTC, I will send you 44 BTC when the exchange rate hits $350!! Initial Value: $6,370 Ending Value: $15,400!!! Guaranteed Profit: $9030!! Order now and I might include a 24K Gold-Plated Buffalo Nickel, plated with precious 24K gold.  |
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