Can anyone answer definitely the question about when the info about what other actors / coins have agreed to be part of the net will be released after ico closes, thx.
I think only James can do that. As things stand NXT, BTCD and BBR (soon to become XRN?) are involved. Assets are a different question. Thx. Since this would obviously have an effect on both Net price and other coins, i would think this should be handled in a very transparent and forseeable manner - with otherwise there will be unfair advantages to those in the know first. It would be a bad way to start things off. Yes - this is the reason for the secrecy! Obviously there is a huge risk of insider trading. Fortunately it makes perfect sense for James not to allow this, because SuperNET aims to acquire 10% of each coin in its core. Leaking this information would make SuperNET's stake that much more expensive to acquire. |
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Can anyone answer definitely the question about when the info about what other actors / coins have agreed to be part of the net will be released after ico closes, thx.
I think only James can do that. As things stand NXT, BTCD and BBR (soon to become XRN?) are involved. Assets are a different question. |
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some early vote totals: James, you might have to throw in a 'No' vote yourself, just to prove that side of the voting functions properly!  Is there already a way to vote if you have bought TOKENs on BTER ? freeworm will post details soon Investors from BTER can vote at the following link from 14:00 GMT https://bter.com/article/3023 (not permitted to view until 14:00 GMT) |
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I think what I called the metacoin/asset aspect is also very important:
Combining the advantages of more than one coin or project. E.g. using features of btcd, bbr and have the ability to use coinomat as a fiat-gateway if needed and more. If the combination of all that features is accessible for normal users (not computer scientists) via an easy user interface, than this has in my opinion the chance to be a revolution. If we generate benefit for the user - always easy to use and understand - this will lead to great success for supernet.
Please James or Cassius, correct me if I am wrong.
If I've understood you correctly, yes. Synergy, network effect... James is known not to like 'GUI stuff' but I'm pretty sure usability will come into it.  |
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There seems to be a pattern with IPO's and dumps, from what I've read there is at least a plan and budget set aside for SuperNet/Token to hopefully deal with this, what are thoughts on the coming days/weeks price etc?
There will be a buywall at NAV so that people who want to dump can get out without losing money on their initial investment. No way of knowing price immediately after launch. Wait and see. |
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This is the most confusing thing I've ever seen and I'm no newb to the arena. I first started researching this on Friday, but since then I've spent about a dozen hours on threads, reading whitepapers, websites, IRC, and your blog.
I understand the technology idea behind SuperNET - and I think its a good one, but you would have gotten a ton more money if you'd have bothered to explain the financial aspects much better. (Piecing together the NAV funding, the asset NAV funding, and the myriad of ways you expect SuperNET to generate revenue is frankly just a hot mess). It's so bad, everyone I've personally talked to about SuperNET has not invested because they don't understand it.
Moving into trading in two days, the best thing you can do to increase the value is take the time to explain the financial vision (funding and revenue) in detail. Better yet, have someone else do it. Sometimes, when a person is living and breathing a complex idea it seems so fundamentally obvious that they just can't explain it well. We need single, concise document that explains SuperNET in its current incarnation in a ELI5 capacity.
I hope some of you who know James well and are invested in his vision can take the time to do this for him. I would volunteer to be involved, but I'm not really even sure where to begin. Every time I think I get the gist I read something that casts doubt on my basic assumptions - as evidenced by my own posts in this thread. I'm of course happy to contribute to the discussion though.
To close, I've invested 6.5 BTC into super net, but I would have gone much bigger if I felt like like I fully understood the financial aspects of it. I *know* I'm not the only one who feels this way. Lets get something out there that explains the vision in detail before we start to trade on Thursday.
I think, I understand what supernet will be - a combination of funds and metacoin/asset. But I am also dev (erp, not crypto), so it is easy to understand the language and the drawings. I am convinced, that this will be a great leap forward for crypto - combining the advantages of several coins and assets/projects for the benefit of the user. I am in  Maybe an explanation for non-devs would be useful That's about right. It's a fund, backed by crypto, which also includes diverse revenue-generating assets. So the downside will always be protected by the value of the crypto held - at time of launch probably ~5000 BTC - and the upside, well... who knows? Some of the profits will go to coin communities to invest in new tech. Some will go to asset holders. So network effect, collaboration, investing in and rewarding innovation are key to SuperNET, and the great thing is that this behaviour - which crypto sorely needs - is incentivised by the business model. UNO_owner, if you have specific questions, please ask them and someone will try to answer to your satisfaction! One of the problems is that this is very fast-moving and there is no way of predicting certain income streams, especially as more services are being added over time. For example, I think the SuperTraders and PrivateBet will be quite lucrative, but there's no way of knowing how they will perform. We will have early indications about the SuperTraders in a week or two I guess. They will be generating the first profits. PrivateBet will not be launched for a while, but it is a proven market. Then there are things like Ad revenue, which should be more predictable once things are up and running. Atomic... totally unknown quantity. I'm not a dev, or a financial guru, and I know that nothing is certain in life or investment (let alone crypto), but I've taken time to understand this and I'm very excited by the idea. Like some of James' other projects - Teleport springs to mind - it's actually really elegantly simple at its heart. You just have to wade through a lot of complexity to get there |
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over time, each node will end up with preferred routes to other nodes, but this is different for each node. This is because the correlation stats are only possible to the dest acct that receives the JSON API string. That is where the originating acct number is. All the routing nodes only see the next acct to send to and they do know the previous IP address. Since it will not be easy to get a "lock" onto the right IP address even knowing the exact originator's acct #, the weaker correlation of previous IP address to next hop's acct doesnt seem enough to get much info to conduct an attack. Especially since there is only a statistical guess as to the IP for the next acct
James
That is a good point. Forgive me from being obtuse one more time. What is to stop a malicious node packaging up a transaction that only routes to himself (or other malicious nodes he controls), such that at every layer of the onion except the last hop he's simply sending via himself? If you were curious about the owner of a particular account, would that not short-circuit much of the privacy effect? it would certainly be possible to find out the IP of a public privacyServer that is responding to unknown acct's making queries. But a private node would disable this autoresponse, so it would only be sending its JSON responses to known requestors or the accounts it is sending to. this is why the 100+ public privacy servers are needed. to shield the private nodes from such query/response attacks. but some nodes have to respond to generic queries as if all nodes went dark, then nobody would be able to communicate with anybody else. if you are using a loopback privacyserver and do not disable autoresponse, then if your private acct can be linked to your loopback server, then this leaks your IP, so I do see a need for hardened privacyServer vendors that will provide a shield against such things. But this is all up to the user to configure. what a server does not know cannot be divulged. so the really cautious would only be accessing the supernet via an acct that is not published anywhere. Thank you. I will be quiet now. |
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over time, each node will end up with preferred routes to other nodes, but this is different for each node. This is because the correlation stats are only possible to the dest acct that receives the JSON API string. That is where the originating acct number is. All the routing nodes only see the next acct to send to and they do know the previous IP address. Since it will not be easy to get a "lock" onto the right IP address even knowing the exact originator's acct #, the weaker correlation of previous IP address to next hop's acct doesnt seem enough to get much info to conduct an attack. Especially since there is only a statistical guess as to the IP for the next acct
James
That is a good point. Forgive me from being obtuse one more time. What is to stop a malicious node packaging up a transaction that only routes to himself (or other malicious nodes he controls), such that at every layer of the onion except the last hop he's simply sending via himself? If you were curious about the owner of a particular account, would that not short-circuit much of the privacy effect? |
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Thanks, makes sense. Very interested to see how the SuperTraders perform, given their bankroll and bonuses. Hopefully we can get running totals from them?
Like quarterly reports or something similar? Was thinking weekly or monthly Or even automated updates. Would be pretty cool to have them fed to the SuperNET site, along with current price and last dividend. Could be a lot of variance in the short term results that might upset certain people that don't have a good grasp of statistics.  I'd fear it would be just an invite for more trolling. Also goes the other way, if short term results are too high, people might get unrealistic expectations of future earnings from the supertraders. I meant to imply that some other people might misinterpret the results and that trolls might that advantage of that. Wasn't referring to you at at all Cassius. Just reread what I wrote and wanted to make sure it didn't come across the wrong way! As I get accused of trolling very infrequently, I'm a little upset to have missed the opportunity. Ah well. |
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how long till ico ends?
Tuesday, 14:00 GMT or something, that makes ~22 hours to go. Which, by the way, is 3pm if you're actually in the UK. That one really confused me when the ICO opened. |
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Thanks, makes sense. Very interested to see how the SuperTraders perform, given their bankroll and bonuses. Hopefully we can get running totals from them?
Like quarterly reports or something similar? Was thinking weekly or monthly Or even automated updates. Would be pretty cool to have them fed to the SuperNET site, along with current price and last dividend. Could be a lot of variance in the short term results that might upset certain people that don't have a good grasp of statistics. I'd fear it would be just an invite for more trolling. Also goes the other way, if short term results are too high, people might get unrealistic expectations of future earnings from the supertraders. Maybe one month rolling average or cumulative quarterly returns? |
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Thanks, makes sense. Very interested to see how the SuperTraders perform, given their bankroll and bonuses. Hopefully we can get running totals from them?
Like quarterly reports or something similar? Was thinking weekly or monthly Or even automated updates. Would be pretty cool to have them fed to the SuperNET site, along with current price and last dividend. will dividends be paid out to "unity/token" holders? havnt had the time to read through all the details fully.. Yes, in NXT and BTC/mgwBTC mostly I think, depending on whether they hold on AE or BTER. |
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Thanks, makes sense. Very interested to see how the SuperTraders perform, given their bankroll and bonuses. Hopefully we can get running totals from them?
Like quarterly reports or something similar? Was thinking weekly or monthly Or even automated updates. Would be pretty cool to have them fed to the SuperNET site, along with current price and last dividend. |
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Thanks, makes sense. Very interested to see how the SuperTraders perform, given their bankroll and bonuses. Hopefully we can get running totals from them? Further thought on probabalistic routing - layman's response as ever so add NaCl as required: If a node's send list is based on the nodes from which it has previously received packets, is there scope for certain routes to be reinforced in the long term? Put simply, routes that have worked in the past are likely to work again and therefore be used again. Of course, this is all mitigated somewhat by the randomness included, but still, over time a given node may develop a strong preference for another node as a recipient of choice. I'm unclear whether this would actually happen in practice, or whether if it did, that preferred node could then become a target for attack. In any case, a solution would be to decrement the counter for an address whenever it is used to send to, so it is not sent to next time. Quick thought:
sharkfund0 and SuperTraders will both be (independently?) involved in SuperNET. Does this mean they will effectively be in competition?
sharkfund0 is not very active anymore and has a relatively static portfolio that is a proxy for Teleport occasionally I might make a long term change, like sell off 1% BBR to buy 10% BTM and then sell off 1% BTM to buy back all the BBR that was sold i dont expect such things to be any regular thing moving forward. |
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Quick thought:
sharkfund0 and SuperTraders will both be (independently?) involved in SuperNET. Does this mean they will effectively be in competition?
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That happens with EVOLVE y CBOOKING?
It is not normal where the prices are, what I have missed any notice?
Continues the partnership with SUPERNET?
I have invested in the two asset and prices have plummeted more than 90 %. Something has happened and I've lost.
That seems odd. Can someone else confirm? (I'm on a mobile.) They may be fake assets. |
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What do you define as a large network? And what would efficient mean for a network that size?
100,000+ nodes efficient would mean close to optimal redundancy still need to work out what sort of probability distribution there will be so I am not sure what "optimal" is yet How many public/private nodes? this depends on the users. I am counting each computer as a node and most will probably have a loopback privacy server along with the private node, then the 100+ public privacyservers, so that is 1000 clients for the 100+ privacyservers. sounds like a lot, but UDP processing will be fast and network packets are so slow compared to CPU, I dont think it will be an issue. RAM will probably be the limiting factor, but even if things have to swap to HDD it could be fast enough I'm a little lost now I was originally thinking there would be ~100,000 'ordinary' users, then a much smaller number of public privacyservers (100); a user sends a packet, which bounces around between the 100 privacyservers for a while (1-3 onion skins), then 'exits' the privacyserver subset of the network to another user. This may be an oversimplification, or just plain wrong, especially as I'm not sure what a loopback privacyserver is. Assuming I have understood properly, then although there are a LOT of users, there aren't many privacyservers in comparison - 1000:1. And the optimisation needs to occur only within those 100? I guess I was just wondering whether there was some kind of shortcut, as 100 isn't that big a number, but that depends on what acceptable traffic is, and what sort of fanout is considered acceptable. Just trying to understand better. This is what happens when you ask 'anyone' for feedback. every ordinary user will have to use a privacy server i assume most will use their own computer as the privacy server so each user will have a private node and a loopback privacy server this means 100,000 private nodes, 100,000 loopback servers to have a reference set of public IP addresses that are always there, there will be 100+ community run public IP privacy servers so 100,000 private nodes, 100,000 loopback privacyservers, 100 public IP privacyservers onion packets will bounce around all the privacyservers loopback or public IP Then that problem just got quite a lot bigger. I guess it's a good problem to have. |
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What do you define as a large network? And what would efficient mean for a network that size?
100,000+ nodes efficient would mean close to optimal redundancy still need to work out what sort of probability distribution there will be so I am not sure what "optimal" is yet How many public/private nodes? this depends on the users. I am counting each computer as a node and most will probably have a loopback privacy server along with the private node, then the 100+ public privacyservers, so that is 1000 clients for the 100+ privacyservers. sounds like a lot, but UDP processing will be fast and network packets are so slow compared to CPU, I dont think it will be an issue. RAM will probably be the limiting factor, but even if things have to swap to HDD it could be fast enough I'm a little lost now I was originally thinking there would be ~100,000 'ordinary' users, then a much smaller number of public privacyservers (100); a user sends a packet, which bounces around between the 100 privacyservers for a while (1-3 onion skins), then 'exits' the privacyserver subset of the network to another user. This may be an oversimplification, or just plain wrong, especially as I'm not sure what a loopback privacyserver is. Assuming I have understood properly, then although there are a LOT of users, there aren't many privacyservers in comparison - 1000:1. And the optimisation needs to occur only within those 100? I guess I was just wondering whether there was some kind of shortcut, as 100 isn't that big a number, but that depends on what acceptable traffic is, and what sort of fanout is considered acceptable. Just trying to understand better. This is what happens when you ask 'anyone' for feedback. |
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What do you define as a large network? And what would efficient mean for a network that size?
100,000+ nodes efficient would mean close to optimal redundancy still need to work out what sort of probability distribution there will be so I am not sure what "optimal" is yet How many public/private nodes? |
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