Alright, I understand but why is that increasing so much security to a blockchain the proof-of-work concept?
Thank you!!!
if the difficulty was only 0000 one computer can find a solution in 0.001seconds meaning if you made a block of data, i can also make a block of data. lets say you made a block and waited 2 seconds before making another. i can make 2000 blocks in that time you waited. and thus everyone follows my chain of blocks because i have more blocks then you. so your data will get dropped. you then have to try to catch back up by constantly working at it to overtake me however by making it require the strength of lets say 125,000 specially configured machines to need to take 2weeks to make 2016 blocks no single computer alone can do it faster for them to have more blocks then the combined hashpower. thus trying to override that data becomes extremely hard. especially if that single computer has to also build a new set of 437310 blocks just to get to the count right now before even trying to overtake
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however hyperledgers blockchain is using sha, but the lock is more so POA (proof of authority) where each hash is signed by a keypair.rather than POW. so no, no random people will be mining it. but the banking cartell will be signing hashes to secure the chain. and distributing it on many systems internally as a way to offset tampering by their own employees by having it in separate locations instead of one single copy.
so yes its not going to be as strong as bitcoin. but then it will only be used on a closed system on hardware designed to only be run by those with authority.
Wouldnt it be more efficient and cheaper for those banks to use SQL or an Oracle database instead of riding the blockchain craze? Because it really feels like they are just trying to get in the trend of the times without really understanding what the whole point of Bitcoin really is, which is where they derived the blockchain from. Because for me a blockchain is the Bitcoin blockchain and if they cannot create it in the same manner then it might not even be a "blockchain" but a database with blocks that is "linked up together in a chain". banks version will not be as strong as bitcoin, but instead of a single SQL database, by having duplicate 'databases' that can corroborate each other by simple showing each other a hash value of any piece of data. they know that none of their own staff have tweaked the data without the bank authorized permission. savings can be made by sacking internal auditors and HR investigators, internal affairs officers, etc, etc. which saves them millions of dollars a year. i agree the banks wont be using all 10 of bitcoins security features but.. by having lets say 94,000 bank branches in america alone. banks distribution within its closed network can actually be more distributed just in america more so then bitcoins ~5000 nodes. so although they know its a closed network that is not going to have the POW difficulty of bitcoin, knowing each bank branch employee cannot maliciously create themselves a billions dollars to a secret account and then resign to the Bahamas. is a good thing to them. so its swings and round abouts.. less secure than bitcoin but more secure than their old SQL system. last thing to note. even bitcoin stores the data in a database. (using LevelDB) its more about how the database is secured and how it avoids corruption that matters
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https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_workExample Let's say the data that you are going to do work on is "Hello, world!". Your target is to find a variation of it, where you SHA-256 hash the data to a hash value beginning with '0000'. You vary the data by adding an integer value to the end called a nonce and incrementing it each time: "Hello, world!0" => 1312af178c253f84028d480a6adc1e25e81caa44c749ec81976192e2ec934c64 "Hello, world!1" => e9afc424b79e4f6ab42d99c81156d3a17228d6e1eef4139be78e948a9332a7d8 "Hello, world!2" => ae37343a357a8297591625e7134cbea22f5928be8ca2a32aa475cf05fd4266b7 ... "Hello, world!4248" => 6e110d98b388e77e9c6f042ac6b497cec46660deef75a55ebc7cfdf65cc0b965 "Hello, world!4249" => c004190b822f1669cac8dc37e761cb73652e7832fb814565702245cf26ebb9e6 "Hello, world!4250" => 0000c3af42fc31103f1fdc0151fa747ff87349a4714df7cc52ea464e12dcd4e9 Finding a match for "Hello, world!" takes you 4251 tries to have zeroes in the first four digits) 4251 hashes on a modern computer is not very much work (most computers can achieve at least 4 million hashes per second). Bitcoin automatically varies the difficulty by: requiring more zeros at the start, which requires more attempts if the results are being found too fast over a 2 week period requiring less zeros at the start, which requires less attempts if the results are being found too slowly over a 2 week period this adjustment is done by checking how fast 2016 blocks are created. if it is under two weeks it has to become harder, if over two weeks it has to become easier. this 2016 blocks and 2 week average requirement, is what calculates down to be roughly a block every 10 minutes on average. but a 10minute rule is not coded into bitcoin. only the 2016 block on average a fortnight is. so one block can be solved in [random but lets say]10 seconds the next block can be solved in [random but lets say]2 hours the next block solved in [random], the next block in [random], next block in [random], etc,etc. but when added together should always be near to 2016 blocks taking 2 weeks. if not then the difficulty is adjusted to try getting it to that 2 weekly average
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I was thinking here how they can introduce fiat currency in blockchain, if one day someone can do that will be great however I doubt it will happen. Blockchain is a baby, hope this technology can grow strong.
look into hyperledger.. and yes blockstream programmed it and banks own it. including chinese banks Is Hyperledger really a "blockchain"? Does it use proof of work? Will anyone be able to mine the blocks in the Hyperledger network? Sometimes I see that many up and coming start ups and the formed R3 banking consortium claim that they will be using a "blockchain" but all we see is a glorified database that uses blocks and tied them up together in a chain and then called it a "blockchain". They want to take out the most important piece of the puzzle that makes a "blockchain" a Blockchain which is proof of work. blockchain is just an umbrella term. it is just 1 security measure of the 10 security measures that makes bitcoin bitcoin. all "blockchain" means is that each block contains the hash of the previous. thus linking blocks together. as you say 'tying them together' a blockchain is not defined by how its linked together either. meaning it doesnt need POW+SHA256 it doesnt even need SHA256 alone..a blockchain can be build using crappy MD5 and nothing else.. a blockchain doesnt even need to be distributed however hyperledgers blockchain is using sha, but the lock is more so POA (proof of authority) where each hash is signed by a keypair.rather than POW. so no, no random people will be mining it. but the banking cartell will be signing hashes to secure the chain. and distributing it on many systems internally as a way to offset tampering by their own employees by having it in separate locations instead of one single copy. so yes its not going to be as strong as bitcoin. but then it will only be used on a closed system on hardware designed to only be run by those with authority. at the moment its blockstream coding it mainly for IBM and Digital Asset holdings(blyth masters group of banking partners) and then because hyper ledger is a sidechain concept(many chains linked together) R3's chain is then one sidechain off (added on) and then the asian banks are in the process of adding their sidechain to the hyper ledger construction timeline DAH came first as the 'master'(pun blythe) chain R3 got involved in spring summer as a sidechain asian banks summer autumn as a sidchain. they are hoping to get something testable by spring 2017 google is a good friend mixtures of blythe masters digital asset holdings hyperledger blythe masters digital asset holdings hyperledger RTGS R3 hyperledger R3 hyperledger blockstream hyperledger this link https://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/announcements/2016/02/linux-foundation-s-hyperledger-project-announces-30-foundinggives some of the players involved.. R3, DAH, IBM .. blockstream though that's from February 2016 and many more banks (asian mainly) have added to the pile after that February announcement
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your not a full validating node. and become reliant on the nodes connecting to you to validate a block before data even gets to you for you to be more sure it doesnt have iffy data or a badly constructed segwit transaction that would normally lead to it getting orphaned out. (still not perfect)
at 95% there is a 5% chance of orphaning. far greater than the usual 1-2% we see each day for the last ~8 years
if you are directly connected to a pool and cannot validate or invalidate a segwit transaction. you will blindly deem it ok and relay it on to your peers. which can lead to lot of nodes receiving data they are not suppose to get.
major downside is if the relayed block u get is from a legacy(old node) and that has a connection from a legacy node too.. all the way back to a legacy pool.. they all of you will get a potentially bad block if someone made a dodgy tx.
id suggest that you dont be directly connected to a pool but be a few hops(node connections) away so that they can do the orphaning of bad blocks. and also probably best to wait an extra couple of confirmations to be sure the network as a whole have deemed it ok
this is especially the case if you are handling alot of customer transactions where they are placing their trust in you.
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Nothing is perfect, for sure bitcoin have their own fails.
To be honest I don't like the anonnymous thing, if someone is doing anything illegal, like stealing of any other thing, will be always one side that will lost money. And that's just one point(my point of view ofc).
Perfect or not, is better than be on the hands of the banks.
dont like anonymity..? then please post your bitcoin addresses and then tell us your home address real full name social security number, date of birth. have nothing to hide and dont mind police having heat vision CCTV camera's on every street? ok well walk around naked. dont mind businesses buying up medical records? ok then tell everyone you meet your entire medical history. you may think you are doing nothing wrong to not care about privacy but if someone asked you to have your medical records tattooed to your body and had to walk around naked.. im sure you will see the subtle point of why even innocent people want privacy
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I was thinking here how they can introduce fiat currency in blockchain, if one day someone can do that will be great however I doubt it will happen. Blockchain is a baby, hope this technology can grow strong.
look into hyperledger.. and yes blockstream programmed it and banks own it. including chinese banks
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no its not. venezuelans are only buying under 500btc a day TOTAL seems the OP is just trying to push some story hoping people speculate falsely to raise the price, without the story itself having any merit to actually affect the price. eg 500btc affects nothing. but op is trying to stir thousands of bitcoiners to over estimate the story to think it affects millions of bitcoins. even those saying localbitcoins is small.. but so is their surbitcoin volumes too https://surbitcoin.com/en_US/#marketsorry OP but speculative chain reactions based on rumours and misleading claims dont work like that
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Edit: One must also keep in mind that Satoshi added the 1 MB blocksize limit as a hard fork in 2010. This was well over 1 year since the launch of Bitcoin in 2009.
satoshi also suggested to move it to 2mb for ~2011. but dispeared before that. and now all the consensus back tracking and delays have caused years of debate. funny thing is core are now the big blockers deeming 4mb bloats as safe.. yet still suppressing the potential transactions allowable within that bloat.
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Social serving activities all go with the legal path, then How we use this decentralized currency to charity or orphanage. For all this first bitcoin should get accepted by the government then all the usage possibilities are there.
government is not the friend of sustainable growth for the people. just the rich. we should not let governments control bitcoin. all that will happen is requirement of $$million licences and require people to hand 10% of their income to eventually the rich seriously the government had a monopoly for hundreds of years. bitcoin is the alternative and should remain the alternative, not join the monopoly
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LOL
economics 101: when someone wants to swap their yuan for bitcoin... someone else is swapping their bitcoin for yuan.. nothing changes for the yuan. nothing changes for the bitcoin. all that changes is who is holding it. no yuan is burned/lost forever when someone converts it to bitcoin.
yuan says in circulation, bitcoin stays in circulation.
the destruction of the yuan is not, nor ever has or ever will be due to bitcoin.. but instead suitcases.
put banknotes into a suitcase and have it get lost, burned thus taking funds out of circulation.. this is why china is starting its own blockchain as part of the hyperledger, to become part of the digital revolution where funds dont go missing. and slowly let bank notes die out.
the article the OP is linking has misconceived many things and made assumptions based on badly researched opinion..
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This is a new system in a old world, we pay a lot of taxes to government and they steal or making bad investments.
So in my opnion, instead of the rulers choose where/when to spend this money, well, maybe we can something like that: Everyone have to donate X% of earnings however they can choose where to invest this money, maybe with cryptos can be more easy to do this, like a blockchain where people can "vote/send" the money from government tax to where they want.
Something like that, don't know if anyone understood what I say lol
um no.. a bitcoin tax.. sorry. i dont think a mechanism to have a fixed % taken from you or me is a good idea. i feel we should remain with a free choice. i have personally gave out lots of coins as a free choice. it should never be an imposed obligation. what should be done is those wanting to start a social enterprise to seek funds from the actual task they want to achieve. EG instead of a government asking for $500billion of tax to take care of public services and hand $10bill to the poor. government opens a national grocery chain where customers buy groceries and the income gives foodbaskets(foodstamps) to the poor. taking the burden of the poor away from the tax payer and reducing the tax burden to $490bill EG instead of a government asking for $500billion of tax to take care of public services and hand $20bill to transportation so the private companies can keep all the travel ticket income for corporate vacations and bonuses government opens a national transport system where customers buy travel tickets and the ticket income repairs the roads/rail taking the burden of the transportation away from the tax payer and reducing the tax burden to $470bill EG instead of a government asking for $500billion of tax to take care of public services and hand $20bill to phone companies so the private companies can keep all the line rental income for corporate vacations and bonuses government opens a national communication system where customers pay line rental and the income repairs/upgrades phone/cable/mobile coverage taking the burden of the telecommunications away from the tax payer and reducing the tax burden to $450bill and so on until no tax is required because its a sustainable system of free choice it was actually halfway working really well in the UK in the 1990-2000's.. but then the public services started being sold off to private companies, which is the opposite to a self sustainable business.. and now while accepting tax funds in increasing amounts. Adding to the tax burden.. the private companies are keeping the profits and also increasing the sales income via raising their prices. yet not actually growing the services.. yep thats right. tax costs have increased.. private profits have increased. public services have shrunk. the only way to incentivize positive growth is to only get paid by the growth itself. EG say you had a fruit and veg stall you had to make $300 a week. if you were getting paid $290 in tax relief from some 'start a business' scheme. you will only sell $10 of apples just to technically classify yourself as a startup business.. and then go home when you met your $10 target. however if you got nothing upfront. you are going to work harder and sell alot of apples and look at the community to find out what the favourite fruit and veg is desired and start promoting oranges and banana's and even expanding into selling orange juice apple juice, fruit smoothies etc to get your $300 a week.
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In this thread some guy talks about the 700GB in 4 years prediction, which seems to be wrong according to DannyHamilton. It seems there is nothing worry about. You would need to raise the blocksize + have blocks full all the time to reach numbers like those... so the blockchain will be lighter. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1667806.0the exponential graph on earlier pages are wrong not so much about the number.. but how he assumes that number based purely on an curve because he didnt take into account the consensus limits.. which holds back natural growth EG if segwit does not activate, we will see the bloat held under the consensus limit of 1mb a block. meaning maximum bloat in 4 years for the entire blockchain will be about 300gb.but if segwit was activated within the year followed by a year of adoption.. we will see the bloat held under the limit of ~1.8mb a block. meaning maximum bloat in 4 years for the entire blockchain will be about 300gb.but if other features was activated followed by a year of adoption to fill the remaining 2.2mb of weight spare.. we will see the bloat held under the consensus limit of ~4mb a block. meaning maximum bloat in 4 years for the entire blockchain will be about 650gb.thus its not a curve.. but a curve then line, curve then line, curve then line ofcourse thats all theory. because segwit may not activate or may activate sooner also everyone may move their funds over to segwit compatible HD seed addresses sooner to all use it sooner causing bloat to hit the red line in 2017 instead of 2018 and then if other features fill the remaining weight sooner causes the bloat to hit the yellow line sooner and thus we have more than 650gb of bloat in 4 years. which makes 700mb+ possible and not irrational number. even if the OP of topic didnt come to the number using a more logical/rational methodology
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It will grow but I'm not sure by that much. What size would it have to get to in order to be prohibitive for users to not want to download it at their current connection speeds?
Well, currently we are talking about a ridiculously low speed: 1 MB /10 /60 = 1.666 kb/s. We can't really estimate where the problem will start popping up for most users. The blockchain is already heavy as is, and the bigger it gets, the less people will want to use a full wallet or run a full node. Current average (global) internet speeds are almost able to download 1 GB blocks under 10 minutes (which requires less than 2 MB/s). However, this is way beyond the realm of possibility at this time, because if they were only half full on average we'd have over 2 TB worth of blocks each month (500 x 6 x 24 x 30 = 2 160 000).
I think a good portion would probably give up if we were talking about 100 GB monthly (probably even less) in blockchain growth. lauda why do you go from talking about a block of 1mb.. to jump immediately to blocks of [random number] or 22.8mb (100gb a month).. why are you not thinking rational of what was previously consensual safe numbers of something like 2mb in 2015, 4mb by 2018.. 8mb by 2021.. 16mb by 2024 why are you always trying to push a doomsday of atleast a decade away to be a problem of today.. seriously 16 years ago people were on dialup and the largest hard drive was 4gb.. so what may seem a problem today when you scream blue murder about any randomly large number you seem to pull out of a hat.. wont be a problem in a decade. you dont seems to get the concept of natural progressive growth if you want to talk about the possibility of blocks of 22.8mb atleast assume that we would get there in a few years and not today. you know, like emphasis that you are speculating the year 202X and not actually talking about 2016/2017 because all your doing with your fake dooms days of 1mb today 22mb tomorrow is creating ammo to avoid safe and agreeable amounts of 2mb 4mb pushing the fake rhetoric just so that one group of devs can do their own thing. if you actually came to the realisation that there is no need for one entity to make 5000 input/outputs in one tx. you would realise that limiting sigops and using libsecp256k1 optimisations would have solved your other fake doomsday of 'quadratics'. you would at this point of reading this post probably want to rebut that yes quadratics wont be an issue by limiting sigops, but malleability wont be solved and double spends are still an issue. which i would rebut that double spends are still an issue even after a malleability fix due to RBF, CPFP and other new features added to mess with unconfirmed transactions. you would rebut that malleability also has issues for LN.. i would rebut that LN has even bigger issues to overcome first. such as the address reuse dilemma
i actually laughed that you were on the 2mb was bad bandwagon but now 4mb is acceptable bandwagon. care to comment on your revelation concerning BLOAT(hard drive and bandwith doomsdays you were squawking just months ago). also care to comment how half of that 4mb weight will be bloated with privacy features and other mundane data rather than expanding the capacity of actual transactions. yep thats right. cores 1mb base 4mb weight. will be at most 2mb(~1. of serialised(full tx+sig included data) and 2mb(~2.2) left vacant until filled with confidential payment codes, and whatnot EG 1mb base 0.8mb witness.... leaving 2.2mb spare for feature bloat rather than more transactions = total 4mb weight ok lets word it a different way. whats your future mindset proposition and propaganda preference: 1mb base 0.8mb witness 2.2mb bloat for future features, for 4500tx or 2mb base 1.6mb witness for 9000tx where in both cases, bloat is ~<4mb how would you like to see 4mb of data used??
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desert means deserted which means wasteland, vacant. not HOT
the term desert applies also to urban deserts/food desert. when talking about things like the distance residents have to travel to reach a grocery store
being a desert usually means cheap land value. also being near the mountains means cooler air, thus less requirement of artificial cooling is needed
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say i made a tx
1ABCDE 0.5 -> 1WXYZ 0.1 1ABCDE 0.5 -> 1ABCDE 0.4
output would show as 0.5 because thats the total used estimated value would show as 0.1 because it recognises 0.4 went back to the sender as "change".
though the second one is not that accurate anymore, because most people do not "reuse address" so its hard to tell anymore which address is the "change" address belonging to the sender because they now use different addresses
eg
1ABCDE 0.5 -> 1HIJK 0.25 1ABCDE 0.5 -> 1LMNO 0.25
no way to know which one is the second party receiving the funds and which one is the originators new "change" address
so the estimated value, is now out of context and not a reliable observation as it would treat the second example as someone paying 2 different people and thus treat it as 0.5 going out and being spent
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hmm fundraising for the "for profit ventures"
my ideology is that bitcoin offers a no barrier of entry for anyone to do things for themselves. you dont need a bank account, you dont need to sign up to any payment services like visa or mastercard to accept funds.
you can literally be a busker on the street or selling stuff at a garage sale and all you need is a QR code on a piece of paper to accept electronic payments.
this alone should help people move forward.
as for profitable social enterprises. well they obviously think they can make a profit. so they dont need investment. take the bitcoin foundation.
it failed because it asked for investment from members but did not use that investment. it instead took those funds and spent them on internal things like paid vacations and expenses for board members.
however as a social enterprise of spreading the word. the bitcoin foundation WITHOUT investment could have organised conferences and got funds from ticket sales. thus being self sustainable and actually profit from the social goal it pretended to have (spreading the word).
take anything. lets say food for the poor a restaurant can sell food and for ever meal they sell, another meal is prepared for those in need.
this concept is why Bitmain is successful. for every ASIC it sells, they make a few other asics for themselves to keep. imagine its greed was taken away and those 'free' asics went to homeless shelters to earn a shelter funding to pay the rent and ofcourse the heat generated from running the asic meant that shelters stayed warm without paying for heating as a separate bill.
social enterprise is great. but asking for funds upfront without showing how it will be utilised or even planning how to be self sustainable to not require endless investment like a blackhole, constantly sucking in investment. means it wont work
i would prefer self sustainability and teaching people to look after themselves to not need to rely on third parties. which is part of bitcoins original ethos.
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ill just leave this here Bump, just because its better than my chart. What will the next halving bring? edits (fucking hate mobile auto-correct sometimes)Pepe thinks this graph is absolutely misleading. Why make assumptions based on something back in 2012? Also, in 2016 the blockchain is 100 GB big, and not 350 GB as graph wants to make Pepe believe. Pepe is not stupid, you know? So why fudge the numbers like that? What is the point? the green glow line is not actual data.. its what could have been POTENTIAL if every block was filled from 2009. the orange glow line is not actual data.. its what could have been POTENTIAL if the hard fork was implemented in block 210000 the funny part is that i actually moved some of the goal posts in favour of the anti-bloater. afterall satoshi wanted the hardfork in block 115000 but based on other historic things i just set the hypothetical line at 210,000 but those lines are meaningless in reality and are just showing hypothetical anyway actual data was the grey filled in shape.. more realistic POTENTIAL data growth is in the other grey shape all the lines are hypothetical.. the greyed out shape is more of the actual and then expectant results based on the hypothetical lines and scenarios of delay in timeline to produce and activate features and then user adoption of those features. here. ill throw another graph in this time the orange glow hypothetical is based on: It can be phased in, like:
if (blocknumber > 115000) maxblocksize = largerlimit
It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.
and the important demonstration (grey shape data) has the assumption this time of segwit and other features never activating not sure why anyone should actually care about the green /orange glow lines as they are just arbitrary lines. its the grey shape that should be emphasised.
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i am against anything that is starting to sound even a little bit centralized and this "vault" idea is one of those in my opinion and also is open to exploitation. escrows and other things similar are good for bitcoin usage and it should be used only through the options bitcoin itself provides like a multisig address (2 out of 3).
and talking about option to reverse a transaction, lol, what is that, did he read bitcoin paper before saying this term?
reversing a tx is about BEFORE its confirmed into a block. no one should treat unconfirmed transactions as immutable. i dont see a reasonable security need to give the masterkey to a third party as that kind of defeats the purpose of the feature EG master key defends against strangers moving funds. so hand the masterkey to a stranger(third party).. it makes no sense from a security point of view at all. afterall... it (sarcasm) worked so well for bitfinex and the so called third party vaults of bitGo.!..right? though i can see the feature having utility as an independent tool for people to have their own masterkey.. to control funds if their hotkey got found out by hackers. but then we start to see it being used by chargeback scammers as another way to double spend. and merchants yet again have to rely on confirmations to treat a deposit as settled. things like RBF, CPFP and this feature have literally replaced the malleability issue which everyone previously hated because of its utility to cause chargeback scams(double spends) of unconfirmed transactions. we are no further forward in devs promises of making unconfirmed transactions more trustable. we are actually taking steps backwards.. (though personally you should never trust a transaction until its confirmed anyway("if its not on the blockchain. its not a bitcoin"))
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You can have more transactions in one block but with soft-fork, with that is like the block have size of 4mb without need hard-fork. That's something good because bitcoin can deal with more transaction every second . actually for onchain transactions its an average of 1.8x growth.. emphasis IF everyone moves their funds from legacy(traditional/old) privkeys to segwit compliment seed addresses and everyone uses segwit. the ratio for bitcoin right now is about ~2500tx:1mb.. segwit WILL NOT attain 10,000tx:4mb total weight. it will always be limited to at the very very best 5000tx:2mb... estimates are more likely 4500tx:1.8mb the other spare 2mb weight are for other addon features later(core hopes) such as confidential payment codes. which dont increase capacity but ned to add more data to a transaction to hide the value for extra privacy. 5000tx:2mb 5000tx+privacy:4mb to get more capacity ONCHAIN can only be done by either raising the baseblock (1mb base 4mb weight) to 2mb base 4mb weight. to allow 10,000:4mb. but then that 'space' cannot then be used for other features that require the space. and it requires a consensus to make that happen which core are stalling/opposing valiantly/defiantly(depending which side of the fence you sit) because they want other features offchain, rather than staying above bitcoins capacity growth onchain. its like offering a coat to get a female comfortable on a rainy night, hoping it would sway her to take off her pants later
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