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18681  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to create great BTC lending service? on: January 12, 2017, 09:16:49 AM
1. if people had collateral. they wouldnt need a loan
2. if they had collateral. how would this collateral be held.
3. if they had collateral such as a car or house. how can they send it to you from india to EU
4. if they had collateral how can you be 100% sure the ID they used is legit for you to have an address to visit them to claim the collateral in person.

in short. if the value of a loan is less than a couple hundred euro. its not worth taking someone to court as the travel costs, let alone legal/admin costs would mount up. so the victim just takes it on the chin and moves on with their life.

if the value is higher, then the collateral item should be secured into a mutual location(escrow). where the collateral value exceeds the loan value to cover costs of loss and tempt a loanee to not default. as i said how such an item can be secured/escrowed is a risk. and if the loanee had such large value collateral to hand over. they might aswell just sell the item instead of asking for a loan.

lastly my main rule for internet trading is something everyone should think about
if you dont have enough real, guaranteed to be valid and correct info on another person you are handing funds over to. and if you dont have the capability to physically slap them with a wet fish/court order should they do you wrong.. dont give them your funds!
18682  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Bitcoin has 'jumped the shark' on: January 12, 2017, 08:57:33 AM
about the utility of LN in regards to peoples false ideals of the fee's they expect.


anyone also notice how blockchain.info removed the "days destroyed" stat.
this is because if you analyse that stat against other stats, it reveals that people DONT on average do several transactions a day or week.

many peoples funds are used once every 5 days. some peoples funds sit for months and yes years. thus something like LN with a 10day n-lock is useless utility for these people who do 2 or less tx per channel period.

so dont expect "cheap" tx fee's as the norm because LN isnt designed for people that only do 2 or less tx's per LN channel period.



next we have the CLTV which when confirmed(settled) stops funds from being respent for the CLTV period (laymans: much like banks/paypals 3-5business day delay on ''funds available", or like bitcoins blockrewards 100confirm maturity)

so people who do desire 'regular' spending wont want to have funds maturing for a few days.

however, LN have a scheme/plan for that too.



an LN hub can circumvent the CLTV maturity by revoking the funds to a destination in the CSV revoke commitment to push the funds into a new LN channel. meaning an LN hub can lock peoples funds permanently into LN contracts.(laymens: bank chargeback/reclaim)

LN actually initially wanted to penalise users by taking all their funds to the LN hubs non multisig address(fraud penalty).. as the ultimate penalty.. but morally they should only use the CLTV and CSV features to reset a new LN contract* to then get the customer to agree a new honourable agreement of who owes what. suggesting that due to CLTV its better to just use LN than resettle again.
*https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0112.mediawiki#lightning-network
Quote
To allow a commitment transaction to be effectively revoked, Alice and Bob have slightly different versions of the latest commitment transaction. In Alice's version, any outputs in the commitment transaction that pay Alice also include a forced delay, and an alternative branch that allows Bob to spend the output if he knows that transaction's revocation code.

so LN hubs can actually hold funds to ransom and even if you broadcast your own copy, they can CSV revoke to honourable put funds back into a new LN agreement.. or maliciously allow the hub owner to take the funds into his own private ownership (non multisig).


yes i left the best for last because i know people are itching to say they will save on costs if they need to do more than 2 transactions per channel period...

lastly there are the internal penalty fee's too.
LN have come up with many penalties. such as, if there is a multihop transaction happening.
you can be penalised for not promptly agreeing to it, as it would cause a extra delay on the other commitments agreements.
you can be penalised for not signing your agreement
you can be penalised for attempting to spam/DDoS the hub with excess data
you can be penalised for sending the wrong agreements to be signed by the hub



they actually envisioned a 0.006btc fee as a minimum entry into a channel ($4-$7 at this weeks volatile price) to cover their expectant fee's over time. yet again rules out micro payments of developing countries where $4 is 2weeks wage (cuba, georgia, etc).. $4 is 1 week(Kyrgyzstan, gambia, ethiopia, etc)

imagine having to deposit a week or 2 wage just to cover fee's for a 10 day lock. before you factor in how much you would deposit ontop to actually spend.

the problem with the devs, both calculating the onchain fee war and the LN fee penalty acceptability. is they are thinking with a western world mindset of being only slightly cheaper than paypals 20-30cent fee. before the devs would even consider lowering their 'spam' limiter down. they should spend a week outside their basements and travel the world and experience currency usage outside of the corporate america setting.



overall summary
LN is not the ultimate scaling solution. it is and should be just a niche/side voluntary service much like third party exchanges are.. for things like gamblers, faucet raiders and day traders who usually spam the blockchain frequently.
however malicious spammer who want to spam the blockchain will avoid LN because LN defeats their malicious purpose. thus LN wont mitigate intentional spammers.
also infrequent bitcoin users (under a few times a week) wont need/want LN due to the settlement delays and the costs of setting up/settling would be more then just paying someone direct onchain infrequently
18683  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Site investigation conducted to the top 3 Chinese Bitcoin exchange on: January 11, 2017, 11:08:46 PM


Why you frucking asians always think everybory running illregal exchange? Mind you own biness! Market manipruration not you probrem. Fruckers

he is french though.. lol
18684  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Value vs. utility on: January 11, 2017, 08:46:17 PM
This is a good question and debate. The more liquidity we see across the entire available coins the lower price we'll see, and certainly more stable. The more people hodl, the more the price will rise.

I realize that throughput constraints may turn some folks off, it will lower liquidity. But that doesn't mean it will lower the value of bitcoin. A decrease in value will only come when there are more sellers than buyers, literally. So if liquidity becomes tough, but people still see "store of value" value in bitcoin we'll continue to see the price rise over the long term.

The shorter term fluctuations will always  occur and are indicative of direct buying an selling moves. We see a dip after the holidays, perhaps people are taking earnings in bitcoin to replinsh their fiat reserves or simply because there has been a run up.


The greatest challenge in trying to find causation in bitcoin price movements is doing so with social or business events...the currency is so global that it's hard to attribute one country's actions to the movement of the price of bitcoin.

"store of value" has a limit.

some people think scarcity is a thing.. but if only 10 people hold say 42coin.. this does not make 42coin worth a few billion dollars..
utility plays a part of it.

if it has no utility then it doesnt matter how rare it is, no one needs to use it so no one wants it so no one asks for it.
its why all of the altcoins with small supply fail. because they think scarcity alone is a value creator

another example.

housing market.
people think if they buy a house at say $500k their asset will always hold a store of value of $500k..

check out the last 9 years and see if thats true.

when there is no demand for houses because people cant afford them or doesnt see the need of a 5 bedroom house or there is something else people see that does have utility for them thats not your house.. after a while you start dropping your ask price below $500k to tempt a quicker purchase. thus the house loses value.

now imagine it for something someone doesnt "NEED" at all because it does nothing tangibly..
scarcity is no longer something to rely on as a value store
18685  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Site investigation conducted to the top 3 Chinese Bitcoin exchange on: January 11, 2017, 08:33:08 PM
"chinese" exchanges have been in constant communication with PBOC for years.

this topic is exaggerating a 'routine' inspection by regulators* into something sounding more like a raid.
it is not a raid. its just a routine inspection

seems like the OP wants to cause drama to cause some speculation and another discount day to buy in cheap.
and when people wise up to the truth and price then recovers, the OP can sell for profit.

*(yep many finance firms in fiat, asset and commodities get these as something treated as normal processes)


Quote
The operation is focused on checking whether the company is operating beyond its scope
BTCC for example has a regulatory agreement of what its business will do (scope of business).
the regulators are just doing a routine inspection to check

drama over

tip: this is temporary speculation drama. do not consider it a panic moment to cry about losses, consider it a discount day to increase holdings cheaply

Just what you would expect the chinese to say to the west while they dump on your heads..

im a brit. i just hate the FUD that turns into sheeple scripts everyone repeats and circle jerks to
18686  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Breaking News! PBOC inspects Chinese Bitcoin Exhcanges on: January 11, 2017, 08:29:05 PM
yes, and guess what

Their attack on BTC will serve nothing but to show to the world that they themselves are in fear. Furthermore, the crypto community will respond appropriately and move out of their grasp. Next, cryptos will grow in other nations, eventually catching up to China and causing China a huge disadvantage for having been so stupid as to attack cryptos. BTC will flee china temporarily and be harder to get back.

And here it is coming gradually the regulations but I still see this as a stunt they are pulling over there and this will affect the price of bitcoin in a way whether positive or negative because its this same China that the massive increase in the price of bitcoin started towards the end of last year as their exchanges were at the forefront of pushing the price upwards... And the down trend we are witnessing now cannot be totally ignorant of their activities over there...
Any nation with a brain will grab hard to get cryptos into their borders now. All economic models heretofore are outdated. That means that PBOC is making decisions based on a jurassic economic model  LOL


they are not in fear...

seriously calm your mind. try researching rather than speculating.
china dont care about the money supply in regard to bitcoin.. for every buyer there is a seller.. so the chinese money circulates the exact same as someone buying a loaf of bread. the fiat does not evaporate. it just moves from a buyers to a sellers account.

all that ultimately changes is whos holding the fiat..

china is just doing what it does to ALL financial firms.. it periodically does routine checkups to ensure the business is working within its scope. and periodically informs the nation that trading and investment is a risk.

it does not matter if it is an asset commodity stock or share or forex.. the PBOC drama is the same for all financial services.
its nothing special about bitcoin

seriously calm your mind. try researching rather than speculating.
18687  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: OK Proof of life but why is the hash proof different? on: January 11, 2017, 08:13:48 PM
try 447506

not your 445706
18688  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Breaking News! PBOC inspects Chinese Bitcoin Exhcanges on: January 11, 2017, 07:47:23 PM
BTCC has an official license, making their operations perfectly acceptable. However, it seems the PBOC is mostly interested in potential market manipulation and “cooking the books.”

yes its a regular/routine checkup..which is part of their licence agreement

its not raiding an unlicenced exchange.. hence all this drama is FUD
18689  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Value vs. utility on: January 11, 2017, 07:36:43 PM
1) Big blocks with centralized network and fast and cheap big volume onchain payments
2) Conservative blocks with decentralized network with second layer on top for the fast and cheap big volume payments

oh be quiet with your fake only 2 option scenarios..

thinking dynamic blocks leads to centralization is a failure of your understanding.

you do realise that having litenode, no witness mode, pruned mode, LN hub mode has far higher risk of diluting the full node counts.

as for dynamic blocks.. if nodes cant cope with a large rise in bandwidth, they wont vote for it..
dynamic blocks are also "conservative"(to use the scripted rhetoric buzzword of the core fanboys) by only activating extra buffer when the majority flag that they can cope with it. meaning sensible natural capable rises over time.

please slap whoever is passing you the fake rhetoric to repeat.

the obvious buzzwords repeated simultaneously by one sided biased people is becoming very clear its a script you lot are reading
"conservative" "bigblocks"

the funny thing is those wanting onchain scaling want 2mb.. the BIPS show this.
the group with the 4mb weight.. is actually the crew passing out the scripts of buzzwords pointing the finger in the other direction..
18690  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Value vs. utility on: January 11, 2017, 07:30:51 PM
expanding utility positively increase value
intentionally limit utility negatively decrease value

its not a case of one or the other. we need to expand utility to positively affect value.

in short if you cant spend bitcoin in the 300k+ merchants and it costs too much to withdraw your funds from a exchange (fee war gets too much)

they end up returning to fiat because fiat withdrawals are cheaper or
users end up losing funds due to 'hacks' out of fear of not wanting to withdraw...

people lose out and the value/utility and desire because they cant do anything with bitcoin and it costs too much to hold independently

18691  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Site investigation conducted to the top 3 Chinese Bitcoin exchange on: January 11, 2017, 06:56:48 PM
Wasn't China coming up with a digital fiat? They can benefit from a big dump if they intend to buy a lot of bitcoins (like some banks and companies are doing now). On second thought, that would be bad for them, people might lose their trust on the crypto. Maybe they are really just going after what they see as tax evasion. True China is a dictatorship, a communist country only in name but let us not forget that some of those money really could have been earned illegally.

For example, the Chinese are heavily involved in the drug trade in Asia. Drug manufacturing and trade itself is punishable by death in China so they manufacture those drugs in other countries instead, for example the Philippines. Drugs for the Chinese market are carried by Filipino mules but portion of the goods are also sold locally. Now if I'm a drug manufacturer in the Philippines, how would I send the money back to my boss in China?

chinese government are not buying bitcoin. they have regulations that the BANKS can only handle FIAT..

its citizens not governments that are speculating.. and at that its not 1.3billion citizens but just a few hundred or thousand citizens.. again not governments.

the government is involved in the IMF hyperledger. not bitcoin.
the government is not attacking bitcoin but just doing a routine inspection of any financial institution that is half involved with fiat trading.. even if the other half was a stock, commodity, asset or foreign currency.

soo much FUD is spread purely to create speculative panic..
18692  Economy / Speculation / Re: Chinese Bitcoin Exchange Inspections Cause Price Drop and FUD on: January 11, 2017, 06:49:01 PM
Oh yes, the "buy low, sell high" mantra everyone knows.   Grin A single bitcoin costs double the monthly salary in my country. If it would drop even further, I might be able to manage to buy a few bits that I can hold on to.

so buy a few bits now.. bits= 0.00000100 btc

if 1btc is 2 months wage. then 0.003125btc= 1 hours wage.
you can buy 3125bits for an hours wage
18693  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: There are 196 countries in the world, China is one of them on: January 11, 2017, 06:30:41 PM
I'm always surprised that Russia isn't more active in mining Bitcoin

There are a few reasons behind this

First of all, people are not very familiar with Bitcoin in Russia overall. Second, China had an advantage before Russia as well as most other countries (barring, maybe, the US) in respect to the ease of getting mining equipment. Basically, China happens to manufacture the equipment used for mining, so it is no surprise that it takes a leading position in Bitcoin mining. And last (but likely not least), wealthy people in Russia are not the same kind of wealthy people in China. Most of their wealth comes from selling natural resources and arms which China is a net importer of, and they just don't feel very interested in Bitcoin and earning profits through Bitcoin mining (when they can just continue selling oil and natural gas as well as tanks and fighters to the same China)

seems not only is the logic of difference between citizen and government too much for people to grasp, but geography too.
russia is not even in europe.. so not sure why russia was mentioned... not even sure why governments arms trading is mentioned in relation to citizens choice of using a different currency.. russian government selling guns to china govrnment has nothing at all to do with individual peoples choice or to do with the topic of bitcoin.

but anyway

russia is not number 2 of best places to manufacture miners and mine...
however if you want to play the skin colour racial biased game and class a few individuals as being the same as a whole country.

to answer the question why isnt russia more active. and if china just got there first...

"russia" has been involved in bitcoin far long before "china".
BTC-E has been running since 2011 afterall.
vitalic buterin got involved in 2011 too

you may now say that i only stated 2 small examples of 2 small entities and then whitewashed it to sound like i was trying to coat the whole country as being involved..

well i hope you see the reverse psychology of it
18694  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Marketplaces in your country/region that accept Bitcoin? on: January 11, 2017, 05:43:42 PM
I think it is still a milestone for Bitcoin!
My country, India is on the trend to become cashless after demonetization. As an impact of which, many payment gateway and wallets (ex. Paytm) becoming famous and being accepted by around 80-85% merchants. But if we talk about Bitcoin, hardly 1-2%.
Main reason: It is difficult to exchange Bitcoin and its volatility.

yep the I in BRICS is for India. there is plans for the BRICS leaders to have their banking structure as part of the IMF's hyperledger, where everything is done electronically (no paper money)
18695  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: There are 196 countries in the world, China is one of them on: January 11, 2017, 05:40:26 PM
India can stop Chinese manipulation but I don't know why indians not doing these. Indian can also produce cheap mining equipments and electricity is also not much expensive so why indians are not competing Chinese in Bitcoin mining field ?

the maths, logistics and costs have already been done to death.
 india is not in second place as the best place to mine.
its not about population numbers or land mass or minimum wage. there are other factors in play

due to india being a hot climate and the electric issues and other factors. india is not second place

infact its a couple places in the eastern europe area that come second.
18696  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: China? on: January 11, 2017, 05:35:13 PM
But, "they" can join themselves to control Bitcoin, why not? It's not impossible and free market allows this. All depends the will of each one of the members of "they" group (chineses). If they want they will be partners on it to try rulling Bitcoin to make big money while the only thing another people can it to follow their lead trying to predict what will be their steps.

If the chineses living in different houses join one only big house they will be stronger and more influential over crypto-currency world, over Bitcoin.

instead of spreading out the hash power to give the smaller guys a bigger chance and themselves hurting each other by being separate by competing against eachother.
you would see one pool. ensuring block rewards with every block. if your mindset had a chance of being onto something.

all the technical reasons about your mindset have been done to death for a few years.

think about it in the mindset of all of the segwit/dynamic block talk. even if something malicious/intentional was to occur, user nodes will orphan a malicious block of rule breaking data.
at very worse the block production from a massive superpool doing something malicious can be blacklisted and orphaned off.

but when you say "they" you are not talking as if the rational conversation is about say 100 people spread over 3-4 pools.. managing mining farms in 10-15 locations hundreds-thousands of miles apart

your talking as if its 1.3billion people all in it together eating the same bowl of rice.
18697  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: China? on: January 11, 2017, 05:03:55 PM
Is China trying to control Bitcoin?

It's evidently clear because they control the largest part of the bitcoins network, I learnt just 3 Chinese mining farms control about 70% of the entire bitcoin network so in effect they are in control and decentralization is at risk.

?they?
what if i told you that slushpool. many classify as part of your THEY.. is actually managed by a guy in thailand..
another pool manager is in mongolia. and another pool manager travels between europe and america.. where each of them have stratum servers dotted around the world

1.3billion people do not own bitcoin.. only a few people do and those few people do not all live in the same house eating the same bowl of rice.

the individuals have separate lives living hundreds/thousands of miles apart from each other and are actually competing against each other.. not colluding with each other.

in short. there is no chinese "they".

whats next every american is a KKK member purely because a few americans are that racist... fine you deem all of america KKK members under your mindset.

whats next every italian is a part of a mob
18698  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: There are 196 countries in the world, China is one of them on: January 11, 2017, 04:57:10 PM
i am really getting tired of seeing all this talk about China and bitcoin. everyone should start talking about the other 195 countries instead of focusing on what people are doing in China when it comes to bitcoin.

Well ask yourself the simple question, why people talk about china in a bitcoin forum? must be because they own the mining game? must be because they are at the top of bitcoin volume?

Like it or not, as long as those are facts, people will talk about china all day. The rest of countries don't have anything to do unless they want to challenge china's monopoly.

?they?
what if i told you that slushpool. many classify as part of your THEY.. is actually managed by a guy in thailand..
another pool manager is in mongolia. and another pool manager travels between europe and america.. where each of them have stratum servers dotted around the world

1.3billion people do not own bitcoin.. only a few people do and those few people do not all live in the same house eating the same bowl of rice.

the individuals have separate lives living hundreds/thousands of miles apart from each other and are actually competing against each other.. not colluding with each other.

in short. there is no chinese "they".

whats next every american is a KKK member purely because a few americans are that racist... fine you deem all of america KKK members under your mindset.

whats next every italian is a part of a mob
18699  Economy / Speculation / Re: Chinese Bitcoin Exchange Inspections Cause Price Drop and FUD on: January 11, 2017, 04:47:24 PM
being racist about a country is like:
blaming texas for the NY bitlicence
blaming california for the parking ticket prices in NYC

try walking up to someone in a non new york state and tell them they are to blame for issues in new york
then repeat it 1.3billion times until it sinks in that its not about america

then realise that 1.3billion chinese are not to blame for just a few chinese individuals living hundreds-thousands of miles apart from eachother
18700  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: China? on: January 11, 2017, 04:41:13 PM
If all of them join themselves they will control Bitcoin, they have more than 50% of currently Bitcoin amount, and even earning more BTCs. The electricity there is cheap, profitable to mine, and they like technology, BTC turned very important for them. If another countries are worry about it, they should try make their people have interest for Bitcoins too, this way they can stop the China power.

if all of america join together they can vote on america's got talent to suggest a dancing dog should be the most talented american..

wait.. britain done that 2 times in the last decade.. (im a brit by the way so its not racist for me to insult my own)
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