Quick update:

Thank you all for your feedback (on here and by PM).

It is clear to me that there is significant push-back from this community to what I was proposing. I'll therefore go back to the drawing board and revert for selling on here to standard bct auctions.

All the best for now.

I can't argue with that.

It's also worth noting, however, that there's also a difference between having someone or an entity holding something for you long-term v. a third party holding a physical item for the duration of a sales process and / or transaction. In the former, yes, you're weighing it v. holding yourself or in your own security deposit box.

In the case of the coins being held for the duration of a sale, by signing a message with the same key that has control of the NFT, I will be able to prove the coins I'm auctioning are mine. And for anyone whose happy with high-value tokens (wBTC and NFTs), as a means of being able to easily swap the two is something that might be an attractive option - and, if not wanting to trust the third party in the long term (or simply in order to hold the physical item in their own hand), they may follow through with redemption.

Each to their own - and my intention here is to accommodate all (other than those who would prefer to pay by fiat  )

Thank you too, ChiBitCTy for chiming in. It is these 'too many issues that could arise' that I would like to consider and, if possible mitigate for (or come up with another plan) and is the reason for this thread. I'd greatly appreciate your sharing what they may be.


To be clear, 4k has no auction feature, only an offer feature so I don't have the option of auctioning it there. What there is there is the feature whereby anyone with the funds in a linked wallet (e.g. a offline-signing-device-secured, linked Metamask wallet) may at any time put in an offer. In the event that someone on 4k has the winning bid, all I have to do is accept the offer and the exchange is done.


There is a 1% charge I would happily pay in the event that it was someone paying me wBTC via the 4k listing* (by smart contract in such a way that 4k are not involved in the transaction) and there is a 1% charge for anyone choosing to redeem the NFT for the coin.


I get that you're not impressed with the whole NFT thing - which is why I wanted to be absolutely clear as per my prior repsonses, that there is no need for any BTC-only people who are attracted to the physical coins themselves, to involve themselves with that side of it including not having to trust 4k because the NFT could be redeemed for delivery to the winner's address.


I have had sufficient correspondence with them (and have followed through with other due diligence) to be happy to trust 4k myself with my coins. I am not asking anyone else to.

* this charge does not apply in the event that I transfer custody of the NFT independently of the 4k listing platform.

Great, Thanks for confirming. That's good to know.

As for NYKNYC, strictly speaking (and practically speaking too, historically, wrt some negligent / crooked physical coin issuers), the private keys on the coins aren't technically yours because they weren't created on your off-line device using your own source of entropy - although it does need to be acknowledged in the case of Cas coins, and Mike Caldwell's competence and integrity, it's likely the closest we'll get to certainty in that regard.

But you're also right that handing the physical coins to a third party to securely store and entrusting them to honour the token they've issued for it is one step further still from true self-custody. And though the key personnel at 4k (who can retrieve the physical items) are respected and have been around a long time (including on here), they don't have the name and reputation of our most respected regular escrow folks here. Then again, neither have the owners of safety deposit box companies to whom many entrust valuables such as physical crypto. And it isn't even that holding physical coins at home doesn't come with its own risks. People choose what works best for their particular circumstances and propensity and judgement of relative risks.

The big plus for me as a seller is that if the buyer is up for accepting the NFT, we've eliminated some risks wrt transportation (or buyer falsely claiming an item was lost in transit etc.) and some days of sweating with coin sent trans-continental with payment in escrow and no certainty it will ever make that last leg to my wallet! And if the buyer is happy to use wBTC, they too have the benefit of an instant and trustless exchange cutting out the need for payment escrow (and in the event of being 'joint winners', will take the prize).

Thank you for this. It is to address such concerns / considerations that I created this thread in advance of the auctions.

To clarify, the option to pay BTC and to receive the physical coin will for these auctions be the same as it is for any other auction here; it is only that there are additional options for anyone for whom the fact it is NFT'd makes it an attractive proposition.

For people, such as yourself, who want no involvement with such NFTs, the only differences I can think of between this and any other bitcointalk auction are:

• The physical coin is already in 'escrow' from which it could be delivered to the auction winner upon payment (maybe to one of the respected bct members who offer escrow);
• Some bidders may be bidding elsewhere whose bids will need to be manually added to the auction thread;
• Should there be identical 'winning bids' here and on 4k, the 'winner' on 4k (who has already committed the wBTC funds) will be the actual winner;
• The fee for the 'item escrow' (1% 4k redemption fee) in addition to any escrow fees relating to payment will need to be taken into account when determining bid amounts.

Anyone who wants to may bid actual BTC and in the event of winning, may pay actual BTC and receive the actual physical coin without having had any interaction with token tech (nor any non-BTC technologies) and with it making no difference that the coin was for a short time represented by an ETH-based NFT.

On the other hand, anyone who would prefer to utilise / leverage ETH's token technology in the exchange process and even explore the options of trading the NFT or simply leaving it with 4k's secure storage as opposed to their own, may do so. (and there are hybrid options too for the exchange process with or without additional escrow to pay BTC and to receive the NFT).

Again, thank you, MoparMiningLLC for raising this. I hope the above clarification is helpful to you and to any others who were having similar thoughts. As a matter of interest, given what I've added in this post, would the fact I've NFT'd it still stop you from participating in these auctions?

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the following way of conducting an auction on here in the next week or so for two brass Cas coins whereas, in parallel, I would also accepting bids for them on 4k.com where they've been "NFT'd" (the .5 is graded at MS64).

This is one of them:


Both coins are currently in secure storage in the US by 4k.com who have issued 'barer-tokens' (ERC1155 NFTs) for them. These auctions may therefore also be thought of as auctions for the physical-coin-backed NFTs.

However, I want the auction also to be open to the BTC-only community hence my proposal to have an auction thread here whereby anyone may place their bids here and 4k can be thought of merely as an escrow holder of the coins (with the 1% NFT redemption charge thought of as an escrow charge).

The idea is that I (or others) will replicate on the bct auction thread any bids that are made as 'offers' on 4k which may then be out-bid by people here not wanting to wrap their BTC as ETH tokens.

I propose in the event of there being two identical 'winning' bids, one here and one on 4k, that I will declare the one on 4k to have won because of the simplicity, low-risk and instant means by which wBTC may be exchanged for the NFT.

Where there is one clear winning bid on here (not matched on 4k) we can find a means to suit both parties (by use of escrow etc. at the buyer's expense) to transfer ownership and, if required, to take custody of the physical coin (to 'redeem' the NFT).

Does that sound to you like something that could work? Does it sound fair? Do you see potential pitfalls to this plan?

 

Thank you to all who took an interest   I'll let you know when the next one (or the first of the tens) are going on whatever platform that may be.

Here is a glimpse of the quality of this one for anyone who may be tempted without needing to click over to the auction page

Hi all,

Scarce City is auctioning a brass Casascius coin of mine, 1 Bitcoin, Series 2 2013, loaded - good condition.

For pics and further details, see the auction link from which bids may also be placed.

Thank you for your interest  

First, I owe you in the bitcointalk community three apologies:

i) for my last message above that I retracted earlier. Looking at it this morning and at the responses to it, I can see that I had let my disappointment at the result combined with tiredness bring out a cynicism (including raising old stuff that has nothing to do with this auction) that was not justified and in the process, insulting those who identify with this community. Sorry for that.

ii) for having starting a thread and then gone on and on about selling Cas coins here (including dangling the silver-gilt 10s carrot) for almost a year, talking as though auctions were forthcoming then disappearing for many months on end.

iii) for, when I eventually did put something on offer, that it was a coin that was far from being in the best condition.

On the first, I've nothing further to say.

On the second and third, to a certain extent this dragging on without delivering anything then my first offering being of such comparative low quality has been out of my hands because though it was I who initially purchased these coins, they are all in the hands of others unless and until I've re-acquired them. And it happened to be that the first I got back was of fairly low quality. Having said that, if you look at the photos of the one that went on Scarce City for BTC1.4, you'll see that it is of similar condition. Those are two of four which have been together (in a 'sewer', damp cellar or wherever it was they were stored). I re-acquired yesterday's one and bitgeiniog (the Scarce City seller) acquired the other.


I am sorry to hear, but it's also somewhat reassuring to hear from mj that it is his experience too that selling here 'has become a struggle'. So I can be reasonably confident that it is highly likely that it was not only the article itself nor my reputation or lack thereof (including both my thread of last year and my older post history) that was the cause of that coin going for a song.

As for 'MJ [doing me] a favor', he's no charity and I'm sure he wouldn't have bid if he didn't think it was a fair (or better) price for him. As I said above, if it was going to go to anyone at that price, I'm glad it was to him.

I will also ask my critics here to remember the goading I got on the other thread, being challenged to 'grow a pair' and put a Cas ten on auction with no reserve and just accept whatever the outcome. I'm pleased I didn't raise to the bait and instead did a test run (even if it was for an item far from being in best condition) before committing to auctioning a ten piece here. With the direct experience I now have, backed up by mj's comment, it seems clear I need to go elsewhere to reach good numbers of lively and enthused bidders. Basically, I need to find the people who are more excited and attracted by the prospect of holding in their hand 1/21-millionth or 1/2.1 millionth of all the BTC that will ever exist in an even more limited form (Casascius coins i.e. coins from the first person who thought up how an internet-native currency could work as physical coins and then produced them) than they are put off by whatever blemishes there may be on the physical coin itself.

I may find call to return again and will at least do you the courtesy of alerting you of sales / auctions of these coins elsewhere even if only to observe, assuming the likelihood of their being deemed to be overpriced by the OGs here. In the meantime, again but absent the 'sour-grapes-ness' of my message of last night, I'll wish everyone here the best for your endeavours and speculations

Retracted - for reference, the comment that was here is quoted by others below.

Congratulations minerjones, it's yours!

For anyone happening to be looking for the current bid...

Hi, Please ignore the timer. It has not been reset. It finishes in 14 mins.

I think there's an issue with the timer when the page is revisited. I thought there was an issue before then I was told it was fine so I thought it may just have been me and left it. I have disabled it. The auction end time is on the hour in a few mins (subject to sniping as per above).

Bump - Last chance to bid in the next hours...

---

Hi mj, Clearly this price is waaaay below what I was expecting and hoping for - and it's not over yet...

...But I want to be clear I will honour my commitment here and sell at this price if there's no further action - and happy if it is to go so cheaply, that it goes to you as one of the best respected experts and most trusted in the field.tf

Hi,

Thanks for responding. Clearly not what I was wanting to hear and only Saturday will tell whether that was the case.

Having bumped this thread today, I'll bump the auction one tomorrow unless there have been any further bids to do it for me. An auction thread slipping to the second or third page is much less likely to find large numbers of potential bidders!

Bump...

...as the tumbleweed blows through the apparent ghost town that is my auction..

...did I just see a glimpse of a prospective bidder hiding in the dark inside the saloon behind the swing doors?

...was that a prospective bidder that just peeped and hid again around the corner of the building?

...did a prospective bidder lying on the roof of the building opposite just pop his head up?

...or is this auction really an abandoned town where this coin will be picked up for a song?

I guess we'll find out on Saturday...


(No offence MJ, I acknowledge and appreciate your bid, and why wouldn't you start with the lowest? - it's just that your as-yet-unchallenged opening bid is 1/8th (in BTC) the premium this other one fetched recently)

Thanks for your feedback and tips I'm sure the bullion dealer will have a spare capsule we could use

Clearly this ungraded coin is far from being in mint condition, yet these magnified photos show the blemishes as much more prominent than when holding the coin in person. In your hand, you get a real sense not only of how precious bitcoins themselves are (you're holding 1 / 21 millionth of all that will ever exist) but also how few of these original physical coins were ever minted. See this recent auction where another of these coins I originally purchased directly from Mike Caldwell was sold (by https://twitter.com/bitgeiniog).

• Starting bid: 1.05 BTC.
  
  
• Minimum increments: 0.01BTC
  
  
• End date and time: Saturday 2021-11-27 at 23:00 UTC - see countdown clock below.
  
  
• Sniping: Any bid made within the last 10 minutes of the auction will restart a 10 minute clock for each bid thereafter (countdown clock to be ignored in the event of sniping*).
  
  
• Shipping: Not included. UK buyer: collection in person recommended from a secure facility. Overseas buyer: coin will be professionally packaged and dispatched by bullion dealers, with courier insurance offered for additional cost. Estimated shipping costs: Europe: BTC0.0005, International: BTC0.001.
  
  
• Custody: Coin is in the custody of https://twitter.com/bitgeiniog who will meet winner at secure facility or supervise its shipping by the bullion dealers.
  
  
• Payment: Bitcoin (BTC) to be sent to bc1quv0qwqjzc69vpqdshpz3djyrl8d6347ycx52rn (or to escrow, to be agreed with fees paid by buyer)
  
  
• Payment window: The winning bidder has 24 hours to pay their final bid (to me or, if agreed, to escrow) otherwise, at my discretion, the next highest bidder may be notified and will have a chance to pay their high bid.
  

For anyone not familiar with what this is, from the Encyclopedia of Physical Bitcoins and Crypto-Currencies:



Auction ends in*:
COUNTDOWN CLOCK REMOVED BECAUSE IT IS PLAYING UP. AUCTION ENDS ON THE HOUR.

Note that the countdown clock applies only in the absence of sniping.*

* In the event of sniping, the eligibility of bids will be determined retrospectively in accordance with the timestamp of bids posted, the winner being the highest bid received in accordance with the sniping rule above.

Nudge + changed Subject to 'today' + question re. countdown timer:

Is the countdown timer working well for others? It seems to me only to give the correct time relative to the end of the countdown (beginning of the auction i.e. 2021-11-22 23:00 UTC) the first time I open the thread and consequently, appears to continue the countdown from last time I left the page. If that's the case for others, I'm inclined maybe not to use it as I had planned to for the auction page itself with countdown to auction end. Any feedback (on this or on anything relating to the auction welcome).