You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope).
Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!)
First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool!
Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word. I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic?
Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer?
I feel weird saying this, but I agree with Jeff. Customers chose to bear risk, and they may be rewarded (or burnt) by that choice. However, you should make the argument that ASIC vendors misrepresented the risk by over-promising. The counter to that is that all vendors, accept BitcoinASIC, have either delivered products or are offering refunds to anyone at any time. So in the end, the only argument you have is that ASIC vendors made things inconvenient for you (if you were someone that priced risk somewhere between the initial offering and the current state) or that BitcoinASIC took your money and ran. "You all knew the market was big enough that enough people would be willing to take any option given them, greed blinds after all." - Something is in such demand people are willing to buy it at all costs, isn't that economics 101? Put it differently, given the choice of no pre-sale or pre-sale, the market overwhelming is calling for a presale (this is demonstrated by the fact that they still have orders even after the delay and the risk became evident). Economics 101 teaches us that if we have a product that is such demand we can do what ever we like as the seller? I know of one business model that uses this very very effectively, the drug trade. Money is a lot like a drug man! Given the choice of pre-order or no pre-order sure the market demands pre-orders. Given the choice between full payment pre order and no pre order the market still demands full payment pre order but what if they were given the choice of deposit pre order and full payment pre order, I think the market would choose the deposit method. Why again did they have to have full payment pre-orders even before a single solitary device was shown to exist working (that's a question for all 3 retail vendors...)? I know we're past that stage now as Avalon has delivered but the question remains? |
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Flying Hellfish - STFU
FTFY, Feel free to ignore me. Lol, I actually don't know what to say to this. Created account about the same time website content is changed - true. Knows much about gambling and similar websites - true. Focused on ASIC and especially this thread - true. STFU, will ya? Keep trying? Try harder? I don't know but you are pretty far off base my friend. BTW why would you even think I am this Tom guy? I haven't defend the old or new bASIC all I said was I hope this was real and that I would watch and wait. If that makes me Tom then wow wow wow! FWIW I think bASIC is worse than the other two BUT IF and that's a big if they are new players AND they can prove their claims then I will consider becoming a customer. Don't mistake that for being a bASIC fan boy. Hell if the other vendors changed to my personal satisfaction I would consider purchasing their product as well (although I'm sure BFL doesn't want me LOL). |
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I am really hoping this is real. Grammar and spelling aside the jist of the post rings true for me. The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable for a newb like me! Add to that the absolute trainwrek PR and customer service shown by the current players and I feel like this isn't the real world anymore but some wild west cowboy shoot out!
Hey man, I think you might have a viable lawsuit on your hands if you were forced to purchase something. Did they use a gun or a knife or something? Was your family being held hostage until you ordered? If you were forced into ordering something, it's under duress and you aren't liable for any contract you signed. You should definitely consult a lawyer, I think you have a case! BTW - just out of curiosity, which vendor(s) forced you to order? You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope). Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!) First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool! Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word. I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic? Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer? If you don't want people to take your inflammatory, false/misleading statements at face value, then say what you mean. You have never been forced to order from any ASIC vendor. You have always had the option to wait until the products were available for purchase and shipped to you. Your entire premise is flawed, in so far as the fact that if you pre-ordered, you chose to do so of your own free will. If the risk that you would be bearing is too much, then do not pre-order. There is absolutely zero requirement for you to do so, thus your statements are false. You may not like it, true, but you are free not to participate. Those that are willing to shoulder the risk and those that don't mind the situation will take your place... but there is nothing forcing you to participate at any level. Yes, of course, attacking you... pointing out that your entire statement is false in a semi-humorous way is attacking you. You're the only troll here, sir. Really, if you honestly believed from my post that I was implying that any vendor forcefully made anyone order or that anyone ordered not of their own free will you are more ignorant than I thought. I actually said "the community" that implies a group not an individual. All vendors decided to use full payment pre orders as the only method. You all knew the market was big enough that enough people would be willing to take any option given them, greed blinds after all. That's why you chose full payment pre-orders only, so don't come off with some high and mighty free will bull shit. You seem to be good at diversion and sugar coating, to bad your comedy skills are so bad. |
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What I should have said was if you want to get into ASICS you will only be able to do by full payment pre-orders thus transferring a debateable amount of risk from the manufacture to the consumer.
That won't be the case once BFL catches up on their pre-orders. They'll be looking at a turnaround time of a couple of days from order to shipping then - faster than Dell can build me and ship me a computer and certainly faster than the two months or so I have to wait for built to order furniture that I've paid for. ASIC pre-order customers have taken substantial risks - there's no doubt about that - but the option of waiting until BFL pre-orders were cleared has always been there. Those who pre-ordered wanted to be the first to get ASICs because they realise that every ASIC which hits the market diminishes the profitability of all other ASICs. Most were hoping to have their ASICs in hand before the block reward halved and thought that they'd have a significant head start on ASIC mining before a large number of ASICs were delivered by different vendors. They viewed the potential reward as being worth the risk. The big thing to remember is that this product has one purpose - to generate income in the form of Bitcoins. That people will take huge risks in pursuit of Bitcoins has been demonstrated time and time again. I agree for the most part. Vendors catching up still IMO doesn't justify the risk shedding that is involved initially. I understand the early adopters likely (or at least should have) done a risk reward analysis and decided for themselves, again I still don't agree with how the manufactures transfer risk from themselves to the consumer when I believe any risk they shed should have been shoulder by them. I think those that took a risk had enough already without taking on additional risk that I think the manufacture should have shouldered. BTW thank you for not attacking me (like someone who works for an ASIC vendor and some other random troll did) and trying to discuss this with me. As a forum and BTC newb this stuff fascinates me and appreciate being corrected politely. |
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Flying Hellfish - STFU
FTFY, Feel free to ignore me. Lol, I actually don't know what to say to this. |
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I mean just look at Avalon, pre pay in full with no refund... that's on batch #2 Avalon is losing absolutely nothing no matter what happens, anyone ordering is taking all the risk (big or small its still risk). When purchasing goods it is not normal for the consumer to take ALL the risk while the retailer and manufacture take none. God I wish I could get away with this type of business model at my job!
Do you build to order in your job? It's actually pretty common to pay upfront and not be able to get a refund on built to order goods. Bitcoins ASICs have had a long timeline from order to delivery on their first batches and you're right that customers were bearing a large risk. I don't think you can say that they were bearing all the risk, though, because it's highly likely that first batch sales didn't cover development costs. No-one's forcing anyone to pre-order. Plenty of people have decided to wait until BFL is shipping on a normal retail basis rather than pre-order from anyone. You're apparently also overlooking the fact that Avalon didn't intend to ship rigs initially so they weren't set up for that. They've been open about the fact that pre-order funds for Batch 2 will be used to build the units. Actually I do BTO work at my job. I work for a rack and cabinet manufacture as an account manager and about 20% of my business is custom sheet metal fab. Any custom or BTO job we take our quotes are very clear that they are non-cancellable and non-returnable once material has arrived and fab has started. We also provide the client with a production drawing for sign off approval. I know its just metal and not electronics IP etc and we are not selling retail (we are distribution centric). We never take money up front, in fact we get a PO and the client is billed and is required to pay net 30 after delivery. I certainly would never suggest ASIC manufacture is anything like what we do and certainly what we do is not realistic for this situation I get that. My point is all about only taking full payment pre-orders to transfer much of the risk to the consumer/end user. Forced wasn't the best word, I didn't intend for it to be translated literally. What I should have said was if you want to get into ASICS you will only be able to do by full payment pre-orders thus transferring a debateable amount of risk from the manufacture to the consumer. As for "All" the risk OK maybe that was to unilateral but they shed some risk from themselves to the consumer by only accepting orders the way they do. |
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I am really hoping this is real. Grammar and spelling aside the jist of the post rings true for me. The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable for a newb like me! Add to that the absolute trainwrek PR and customer service shown by the current players and I feel like this isn't the real world anymore but some wild west cowboy shoot out!
Hey man, I think you might have a viable lawsuit on your hands if you were forced to purchase something. Did they use a gun or a knife or something? Was your family being held hostage until you ordered? If you were forced into ordering something, it's under duress and you aren't liable for any contract you signed. You should definitely consult a lawyer, I think you have a case! BTW - just out of curiosity, which vendor(s) forced you to order? You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope). Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!) First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool! Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word. I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic? Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer? |
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I think you're knit picking nitpicking.
Oh most definitely  If they had profits and outside investments, why exactly did they need to take full payment pre-orders? if they didnt need customer money why not take a small deposit to hold the clients place, this is what normal real world companies do?
Meh, why not? As a small company, it's vastly easier to have everyone pay in full right from the start and have them shoulder all the risk. When the time comes to build, package, and ship, it's nice to know that you have X amount of customers that have already paid, compared to X [fully paid], Y [partially paid], and/or even Z [not paid]. It negates the "Oh wait, did this person pay the rest of their bill before I ship?" type of mentality. Why not is definitely not a valid reason IMO... I believe my correction to you statement is more accurate and would agree completely with it . Hell if they had the money to float the project but still took full payment pre-orders than what did they use client money for, speculation, paying salaries, R&D, hookers and blow. Really it doesn't matter what they did with it IMO the community gave them an interest free loan for an "open" amount of time, if shit hit the fan they could have lost money and what would the manufactures have lost? If they took it and needed it shame on them, if they took it and didn't need it shame on them. I mean just look at Avalon, pre pay in full with no refund... that's on batch #2 Avalon is losing absolutely nothing no matter what happens, anyone ordering is taking all the risk (big or small its still risk). When purchasing goods it is not normal for the consumer to take ALL the risk while the retailer and manufacture take none. God I wish I could get away with this type of business model at my job! And to your last point (sorry not familiar with the multi quoting from a single post yet... yup Im a newb!). You can gauge the demand for a product based on pre-sales with a small deposit vs full pre paid orders. Wouldn't it be sweet if there was a machine and some type of program that could have all of the client information on various stages of orders, payments, shipments etc  Come on dude handling (in Avalons case 300 orders for batch #1) is not that difficult in 2013 (unless you believe their current PR campaign). They can design and manufacture ASICS but cant run a tiny little Etail operation because clients haven't pre paid in full. |
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This is my point the risk is there and the customer took it small, big w/e the customer floated the risk thats all i am saying at this point. There isnt a guarentee of refunds hence why i belive it should have been called an investment and not a pre-order.
We seem to be on the same page here. I disagree about the gaming analogy, you are buying a game for entertainment (more like buying movie passes or concert tickets) and there is virtually no chance of "making an ROI". Games are designed and sold as entertainment ASIC hardware is not sold for entertainment.
I'm not sure you understand what a return on investment is..but you can make one on anything, it just doesn't have to be positive And ASICs can be quite entertaining when put in front of the right audience  What all the vendors have done is ask for an investement/ interest free loan from the community but called it pre-orders..
By the way why didnt they go to a bank or an investement firm for R&D costs? I am guessing an interest free loan from the community was much easier to get and much more economically appealing...
You might want to go back and check your facts on that one. Avalon, BFL, and bASIC all had income from their FPGA sales, which primarily fueled their ASIC development. Butterfly Labs also has outside funding besides their previous sales. Whether or not each company used preorder funds to help in the development process is up for debate, but my hunch is that most companies took the more ethical route. And for all we know, others could have gotten external funding as well. It's not like they're publicly traded companies with the requirement to disclose such information. I am aware of what ROI means... guess I should have put +ROI but I think you're knit picking and understand my point. Simply put purchasing a game is not an investment its for entertainment (for the vast majority of consumers at least). Purchasing ASICS is to try and make money (or potentially other more noble reasons) but I think primarily its to see if a few bucks can be made. If they had profits and outside investments, why exactly did they need to take full payment pre-orders? if they didnt need customer money why not take a small deposit to hold the clients place, this is what normal real world companies do? |
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The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable
How so? The only one that's done it so far is Avalon... Any company that takes pre-order money for a product that simply does not exist yet is putting all the risk on buyer. So, I'm assuming all the risk when I go over to GameStop and preorder the next latest title 6-12 months in advance? I understand the point your trying to make, but if refunds are a feasible option for the customer "investor", then the risk is limited. Hence why Avalon is the riskiest investment opportunity out there right now...once you give them your money, that's it..nothing else you can do except wait for your product. At least with BFL (and bASIC there for a while) you can get a refund immediately. With ASICMiner you can just sell your shares (though I'm not sure how liquid they are). This is my point the risk is there and the customer took it small, big w/e the customer floated the risk thats all i am saying at this point. There isnt a guarentee of refunds hence why i belive it should have been called an investment and not a pre-order I disagree about the gaming analogy, you are buying a game for entertainment (more like buying movie passes or concert tickets) and there is virtually no chance of "making an ROI". Games are designed and sold as entertainment ASIC hardware is not sold for entertainment. Also when I purchase entertainment products I probably wouldnt have used that money to invest with so I dont care how long it takes to get the game to me. If someone used the money for investing in bitcoins instead of hardware they would be in for a nice little ROI currently, but alas the vendors had the money tied up in R&D so I lost the oppotunity to make money. This is the risk you as a customer took all under the guise of a pre-order. Just fucking tell me I am investing that is all I would have asked. If I wanted smoke blown up my ass I would be at home with a pack of cigarettes and a short length of hose. Just because Avalon is/was the riskiest does not mean there is/was no risk from the others. I have a feeling that so far anyone who paid bASIC in BTC and has yet to receive their refund is feeling like they took a lot of risk (and lost) at this point. Just because some vendors honoured refunds does not mean there was no risk in the first place (there was never a guarentee refunds would be honored hence the risk) I get what they were doing what I don't like is how they sugar coated it calling pre-orders. What all the vendors have done is ask for an investement/ interest free loan from the community but called it pre-orders.. By the way why didnt they go to a bank or an investement firm for R&D costs? I am guessing an interest free loan from the community was much easier to get and much more economically appealing... |
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The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable
How so? The only one that's done it so far is Avalon... Basically interest free loans, lost opportunity, and the potential for an outright scam. Any company that takes pre-order money for a product that simply does not exist yet is putting all the risk on buyer. 1) Best case scenario for an early pre-order customer that one of them delivers and they receive a working ASIC device that has a decent ROI 2) middle of the road case scenario, customers decided not to wait any longer or manufacture decides to pull the plug on the project and refunds 100% of orders 3) worst case scenario company goes under or is a scam and no devices delivered and no refunds given. no lets look at the same scenario for the manufacture 1) deliver working product - Yay everyone is happy! 2) damn we just couldnt do but hey no harm no foul we refunded everyone 100% right (oh but btw we did use that money for many months for what ever the hell we wanted and gave no consideration for it). 3)while this is certainly the worst case for them at the end of the day they declare bankrupcy and walk away lol.. Id say the customer is risking far more the the company and this is not normal for pre ordering products. This isnt how pre-ordering products work this is more like investing sugar coated by calling them pre-orders. the only one that is even remotely acceptable is AsicMiner as at least they are calling it an investment giving the appropiate risk reward scenario and are up front about it... |
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Sure their first post is "unprofessional", but they're not asking you to send millions of dollars before there's any proof the hardware exists...
This! I am really hoping this is real. Grammar and spelling aside the jist of the post rings true for me. The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable for a newb like me! Add to that the absolute trainwrek PR and customer service shown by the current players and I feel like this isn't the real world anymore but some wild west cowboy shoot out! I for one will be watching and waiting for sufficient proof, if there is a new player here and they prove to my satisfaction they are different that the current two vendors (who will never receive and order from me) then I will in all likely hood buy a couple of devices as I have a few bucks kicking around and am DYING to get into the mining game. if this is more bull shit oh well but personally I will wait a little while and see as I have nothing to lose by doing that! |
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Hi Everyone,
Can someone tell me if its possible to exchange Pokerstars USD for BTC through player transfer. Has anyone done it a few times? I'm concerned that if Pokerstars knew I was selling my Pokerstars USD for bitcoin they might ban my account.
Any help is appreciated
regards,
escrowjoe
PS is a very reputable company (well Rational Group but w/e). I would suggest reading their TOS very carefully to find out if this is "Acceptable". Do not take PS security lightly, they are serious and very very good at what they do and PS is highly committed to a "no bull shit" type policy. If you think about the hundreds of millions of dollars in player balances they hold and the regulations and laws they must adhere to in order to maintain license etc I am happy they are as on the ball and as concerned as they are to manage the transaction that occur on the site. that's not to say things like this don't happen all the time as they likely do. If it was me I would ask myself if it was worth risking having my account potentially permanently banned. As you have been playing at stars a long time I am sure you know its not allowed to have more than one account per person ever. PS isn't a forum where when you get banned you come back in 10 mins on a new account. A little OT, I read a day or two ago (on 2P2 I think) that PS was looking to add a BTC option in their cashier! If this is true its pretty sick to have the largest online poker room on the planet using BTC's...... Also pretty awesome for deposits and cashout (if you're not a FISH!). |
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I bought at bfl...And i also have to pay customs if they track it
i think its like 30%
Are all applicable taxes covered when this customs "fee" is paid? |
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i definitely wouldn't put any money in preorders. If hardware eventually shows up then we csn have a look at wether they pay taxes or not.
Well a unit appears to have arrived today... |
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Do they need to be and if yes are they complying with the laws of the countries they are selling to?
I am Canadian so I am curious if they are shipping units to Canada do they have to comply with CRTC regulations for "Wireless" devices? Do they need to have a safety and standards approval to sell here like CSA or cUL?
What about tax laws, are they being adhered too? Are they paying HST (or PST and GST etc) for units being shipped to Canada? I am assuming most other countries would also like to collect tax revenue on goods being sold in their borders so this isn't unique to Canada. I am also thinking that for such mickey mouse operations like the two current vendors the capital cost of determining all of the various tax and compliances issue would be huge.
So are they doing this? I noticed on one of the vendors sites they specifically state no sales tax unless you buy from a certain state. Unless I missed something (and that's quite possible) if you ship units into Canada and do not pay the sales tax your are operating illegally. I get that the canned response will be "sales tax is included in the sale price and we pay it" but if the tax man came knocking you have to back that up lol!
I am not sure how the whole international manufacture and sales thing works so I am hoping people here can enlighten me as I am genuinely curious. IANAL or accountant!
Lastly I noticed one vendor offering pre-orders with "NO REFUNDS" possible and I am quite certain that offering any goods or service to Canadians while not honouring a refund request is illegal here. We have what we call a "cooling off period" which is supposed to protect consumers from snake oil salesmen and from making a bad rash purchase. Is it like this in other countries?
Maybe this is a stupid newb question and has been discussed to death in which case I apologize.
Maybe these companies are just such low level mickey mouse cowboy operations that it doesn't matter to Gov's and consumers and them?
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Hello everyone, total newb sauce to the bitcoin world and very intrigued by it!! I have been lurking here for a couple weeks or so and figured I would sign up and join in on the discussions!
Man this whole ASICS thing has got me thinking this is a whole different universe lol! I think my F5 button is going to break before this is over!!
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