Kazimir, Obviously, you are either not well traveled, or ignore certain on the ground realities. In the USA, you can stand on any street corner and insult the president, the ruling party, the whole system. Try insulting Castro publicly in Havana, or saying anything against the ruling religious elite in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, or anything against the government in a variety of Gulf State countries. The thing is, in the USA, if you protest against the government, some church or religion or corporations, people just mostly really don't care. You are confusing freedom of speech with the secrecy of government agencies and the actions of individuals to reveal secrets of secret agencies. The US may have all sorts of monitoring, but it is nothing like the police states of the world. You can still say what you want in the US, screw your neighbor's wife, read whatever you want, and no one cares. The proof of this is the incredible high rate of illegal drug use, the freedoms of live theater and artists, and the fact that whether or not you think what Snowden did ws right, there is public discourse here on the issue. America.... isn't that what they call "land of the free"?  The U.S. is more censored, monitored and controlled by secret agencies than countries like Iran, China or North-Korea. Except the puppeteers in the U.S. do a better job, because the majority isn't even aware of it and call themselves "proud to be American". It's a frigging joke  Anyway, kudos for mister Edward Snowden for standing up for his moral beliefs, even if it may cost him his life. You're a hero, Edward. You is a silly. I'd like you to look up the Occupy Wall Street eviction videos and tell me about how free speech is. You'll see me with a nonviolent communication poster in my mouth getting the living shitstomped outta me. I'm on the same page as Snowden as far as putting myself out there. I hope his wallet address goes public and he escapes death. |
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When I first engaged you, it was because you were namecalling and being mean.
Quote me, now. umadbro? I dont feel like rummaging through hundreds of posts, I'm on a smartphone. Let's just say I made it up or am mistaken to save me the trouble of trying to prove it. Look it up if you want. Ever come across that historical example of capitalism working? (... and NOT obliterating tons of workers' potential in the name of 'freedom' or whatever...) EDIT: "Racist bastard" doesn't count. |
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Just curious. What exactly is this supposed to achieve?
The total dissolution of the state industrial complex.... jk. It's just a cool idea for a poetry competition with the prize in btc. Might give the NSA & DHS something fun to do. It might even encourage more leaks. |
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I took the Image Url from forbes, converted it to binary and ran it thru ZALGO. FOR̄̉B̃E̓́S̔̔̄̉ ̏̀ͅID͂̄̉̉̉Ḧ͂S̍̆̍́ ̌ẄͅÃͅT̀̔̀͂ͅC̓H́̈ͅW̓O͂̌́R̓̀D́̆ ̈͂̉ ̌̈ǏM̀̓A̍̍̓G̍̏̓̃̄Ë́ ͂UR̀̉Ĺ͂:̈́́̓̏ 0͂́1̈́̍̍0̍ͅ1̆̃̈́0̉̔1̃͂0̔̏̓001ͅ1 ͂̃́01̣̏̈ͅ0̄̌00̣̏̈̉0̌1̃1̉̌̆ͅ0͂0̀̆̀̃̈1̍̄́0̃ͅ ̉1̏̈0̀0̈́̍1̏̈́̓̄0̉ͅ0̀0̓0ͅ0̈́0̀1̔̄1̔00̈́ ̏̔̃11̀ͅ0̀̏0̣1̃̆̆́10̆̀ͅͅ1̣̓̉̈́1́ͅ1̣̈́̉10̌̀ͅ ̏̀̃̃ͅ1̏1̓̀̄0̌1̉ͅ1̈ͅ0̃0̓͂̍0̉1̣̉͂̆10̣̈́̃ͅ1̓̏ ̄10̔0́̏0͂̆̓1̉1̔01̔͂̓͂́ͅ11́1͂0̈́̉1̌1̣͂́̓ 1̈́0̉̈̌1̌̔̍̔ͅͅ1̃1́̃0̈̌110̣̃1̓͂́ͅ0̏̀̄͂ͅ0̌1̈̓0̄̈ͅ1̣ ̈̔̍̆̓1̀01̏̍̃̈́̈́11̌0̓̀0̓ͅͅ1̓́1̄ͅ0̈̈́̌̉ͅ0̣̍̀̌̈́1̣̈1͂1̀̌ 0̣̌01̌ͅ0̓̄ͅ0̔ͅ0̔0̣̔0̉0̆1̉̈1̆ ̃̈́011̃̌ͅ00̔̓0̈ͅ1̣̀̄1̏0̓́10̓010͂́̓1̓ ̉1011́10̏̓0̄̓1̣1̏̓0̈́́̌1̃̏̈01̆̔1̓͂0̄́ͅ1 ̣̍1̣̉̆̍̈1̉͂0̍0̓̓̌1̓͂1̄0̀̄̄̍̓ͅ0̀̌1̣0̄0̃0̆0̃͂0̣̉0̈́1̆̏̉ ̣̓1̍1̀̄0̆̌ͅ1̣̓̓̆̈́00͂ͅ0̏̔ͅ1̣̉̃1̌0̈́̈11̣̣̃̍̓1̈̀10̣ ̃̃0͂1̓̌͂̍00̉̌̈́0̈́0̈́̏00̄̆ 1̉̀1̌0̌̓̃0́0̣̌0͂1̏0̄1̆̀1̆̉̔ͅ0̈̍1̀͂̈̄̈1̄̆̈ͅ1̏̀̆̌0̈́0͂̓̏̔ ̏̈́̈́0̓1̓̈0̣̔0̌000̣̓͂́̔0́11̈0́̓̉̍1̍0̓̈́̄0̍͂̓1̀̄ ̆̔0̓1̈́1̣ͅ0̃110̓̃̆1̈́̉̓̍01͂̏́1̆̌̓̈́00̀̉̈̓ͅ001̆̏0 ̣̈́̌1̓1̉0̍̄̆0̆1̃1̣́́̍́1̓0̣̓̍1́1̍̈́̈́́0̓́̈́0͂1̓̉0̆1̈0̀̈̆́̉ ̉̔0̌̀1̏̈0̆0͂0̓00̃̈̓0͂11̌̔0̉̉1̍͂1̍̍̍11̉0͂̓̏ ̉1̣10́̔0̃1̓̏̔̆ͅ1̣̈̈̉0̏0̓ͅ ͅ01̀0́ͅ0̀̍̉0̣0̓0́̔0̔͂̌1̣͂̔ͅ0̔̓0̃̈́̓̍0̈́̀͂10̈̏0̔́01̈ ͂̄0͂ͅ0́100̣0̉̃01̉̀0́̈́́̓1̈0́ͅ0̣̈1̔1̀̈́̌0̌̄ ̈́̄01͂0̆̓00̔̃ͅ0̏0̃0̌1̣̏1̣̀1̓̉̉ͅ0́11̏̓1̣̣0ͅ1̈́̍̓ ͅͅ1̈́0͂000̆̓1̈0̣̓̈1́̃̆11ͅ0̃̈́1̏ͅ0̣0́̆0̣̏̄1̈́1̣́ ͅ0̈̈́̉0̓̀̓̃01̓̈̌10̃̀̔̉1̌1̣̔̈ ́̓̏̈́0̆10̏0̆0̓0̄ͅ111ͅ0̣1͂̏ͅ1̣1̓0́̉̈́1̀1̃̌0̈ ̔1̣̍̓1̆̓ͅ1̃̉́̃ͅ1͂0̃1̏1̓̈́̌̃1̓ͅ0̣̆́0̉̆1̈́̃0́0̔̓̈̃1̔̔10̀́ ̣̈́̏0̈1̌0001͂̆̌1̔̔10ͅ0110͂0͂́1̓̓̓1̀̌̃1̓̓͂̓ ̣́̏̆0̉̄100͂ͅͅ0̀00͂̌̓̈́̈ͅ ̣̔̆̏̌1̓̆1̏̆0̉100̣̓̔́ͅ0̌0̈́1̣̄̆̉̉01̏0̓̃͂ͅͅ0̏̈1̣̣̍̈́́̔̓1̃̓ͅ 0̈1̌0̄̔0̓0̉́̓̔̔0́1̆1̉̍̌1̏ͅ0̈́̆̈10͂0͂̈̍̏0̈́1̏1̌ͅͅ 1̣́01̈́0̃̏̓0̓0̄1̆11̀̔̆̍000̉̈0̆̆̈́̃ͅ0̓̓̓̄0̔ ͂̓́1̏̃̔110̀̀̈10̀́00̆́̓1̈̈́0̏11͂1̉1̏̃͂̈0 01̓̈́̍̆0̄̈́̆̀1̀̍1̀́̓1̆̈10̉̈̀1̆ 10́̈̆̈́ͅ0̣́0̔1̣00̈̓0̣̈̏10͂11̓̄010̔ͅ11̣̆̃̆ ̣ͅ0̃ͅ10͂́ͅ0̣́1́̈́0̈́01͂̌̉01̓1̆̓1́̌̄0̔̌ͅ0̏̓1̈1̍͂0̓͂̈̆ ̔̉0́1͂̓̄̓1̔0̣0̏̉̈1̣̈1̔̀̆0̣̣̃ͅ1̔̄1̀̏̌1̀̔1̏ͅ0̓́1̆̉11́̍̈́̃ ̣̈́̓̔0͂0̃́1͂0̔͂̔̓0̓1̔̈́1̓̆00̔̍0̃̈́1̈́̌0̓̔́̔0̈̌̈1̣̄̃̆͂1̄̓͂0̈́́0̏ ̃͂10̉1̓̌ͅ0͂ͅ11͂ ̔̏1̌00̄1̓͂1̈ͅ0͂̌1̉̍̓1̏ͅ0̄̓1ͅ0͂̓0̓1̌̌0͂͂1̣̏̃͂1̣0̆ ̃1̈̀10̣1̉0̆̓̏̀1̓̈́̌ ̣́10̌̌ͅ01̣́1̌̏10̓0̄̏1̓01̣̏̈̓1̈́̍1̈ͅ0͂0̆̍1͂1̏ ̉00̈́̏01̔̃1̓̔̌01̣̏1̓́̀́0̉̀1̈́̏̉́1̣̈́1͂̈1̈̀̀0́͂1̀1̀ ́̀0ͅ1̓ͅ1͂͂0̣1̓ͅ001͂ͅ0̄̆̓̍11̈1̉͂́̔1̈́̓ͅ0̆11̃̈1̄ ̓̓̈0̄̉0̓̍̃1̓̈̍0́̍̏0́̏1̀ ͅ1̍0̏̈̈̍0̣1̣01̌0̄̉ͅ1̔̍1̈́͂10̉10̏́1̣̣0̔́ 11͂101̓̌̈ͅ10̀̈́0̏ͅ1́̀̈́̈̔1̄̉0̆0̀1̣̓0̈101̏̌̍̀̓ 1̔0̌̓ͅ1͂1̃1̣00̓̄11̣́0̍̃0̌̀ͅ0̓̉1̉̃̓1̄̄ ̔̄̔0̄ͅ1́̄̏1ͅ0̃1̌1̣̃̍11̔0́1̍ͅ10̈1̄0̣̈́̆̏ͅ0̌00̓̃1̈́̓ͅ ̍̏̈́̓ͅ10̓̍̍0̃̀1ͅ0̓̉̏1̏̍ ͂0̄1̓̏̈1̏̄0̈11̓10̣̏00̃̈ͅͅ1̣̆̏0̍̈́1̆̄̏1̓̏1̔̓1̃͂ ̣0̈́̃1ͅ1̓0̄0̈1ͅ1ͅ0̓0̌̌́1̌̍̈́ͅ10̈́1ͅ0̓̍01̀0 ̣̓̔̈̓1̈1̉̍0̍1̃̏10̄̓ ̏̈́0̣̀̃̌0̏1̈̍1́00̣̄ͅ1̆ͅ0̣̃1̓̄01̄1̣̉̓1̍ͅ0̍̏̃ͅ01̓ͅ ͅ1̣̄̏ͅ00̈́1̓01̣̍̓1́̉1͂1͂̄0̈0̈̏1̉1̆0̏̆̔0̈1́̏̍̌̈́0̉ ̣̔̏̏0̈͂̆0̣11̌͂̓0̍͂̔̆̓00̣̄̈0̄̌̉̈́̓̀00̈́̓1̍1̉̏00̍0̆1́̏́̏0 0̣̓̈́1ͅͅ1̓̆͂0́0̔1́̓ ̣̓̆̍1̣̓̆0̓̆0101̏1̍1̏̀10̏0̣ͅ110̉0̈́0 0̣̃́001̈́101̉1̀̈́0̍́00̓1̈́̉ͅͅ0́̃̍̈́1́1́̌ͅ1̈́1̆̍̏0̄ ̌ͅ1̣̈1̌͂ͅ0ͅ0̉̔̓0ͅ0̆̈́1̏011́̄̔1̈́0̈́̃0̃̄ͅ1̓0̄̄̆0̓̌1̍1 ̌1̔01̈́0͂̃̀0̏ͅ0̍1̈1͂01͂̄̆0̀̆ͅ0̌1̏0͂̔ͅ1̣̌̓1̓0̍0̀̓ ̌1̓́̃̏̌0̄̉1́́1̣̃0̓̃̈́110̏0̈́0̆1̉̌̌́ͅ1̃0̣̓0̓1 ̃̓̈́̓0̆1̈̌0̀̄0̣̈́̈́1̓0̄̍̓1̄1̓01̆̆ͅ ̌̀0́̈0̣̣͂̔ͅ1̣1̈0̈́0͂1̣̔̓00̣0̓̆̉1͂1̀0̀0̍ͅ010̣̓0 ͂1̏̓̌1̄̆ͅ0̓̉10̌̏1̄̈́̍̃0̉0̣̔1̣̀1̉̈̌0̣0̃̓̄ͅ0̈́̏̈́0̈0̏01́͂ 1̌̀0̣010̓̔̓̆0̏̀̓̍01̀̈1̌1̀̓̓0̄ͅͅ0̍0̈́́0́0̈1̔1̣́̃̈́ ̔̔0̀̌0͂̉0̣10̉0̈̄̃1̍01̆̓1̉̏̈́01̆̍001̣́ 10̄̈́́̍0͂0̔ͅ1̃̃̄̈́0̄̍0̏1̆1̏̆0̏0̀̉̃1̄10̣̆̏̓̓̄0̌̓̈́ ́́̔̓11̍̉̓̓0̓̆ͅ10̣̓0̄0̈́̍1̓00̌͂̈́0̔̌̌1̣̏ͅ0̍̆̉̓̍1̈́̈ͅ0̏ 0̀̄1̏ͅ1̣̍0̈̆ͅ01̏1̈́̌010̏̉0̈0̈́ ̣0̔̈1̔̈́̓̉̌10̔̀0̣11̌0̣͂̄ͅ0̆̆̄10̍̉0̍ ̀̌0̄1̣̉̔̍̌̔1̀̍0̌̃0̏1̉0ͅ00̌̍1̈́1̀̌̀̆0̈́ͅ0̣̃ ̏̉0͂̀0̃͂̓ͅͅ0̣̆̍0̣̣1̍̓10́́̉́̉00̀0̍̍00̣̔̄̔̄ ̈́͂ ̣̉̆̆̍1̓̓1̣́0̏0̀00̣̓̈́0̣́0́̓1̣̓̆1̣̈́̓0̄0̔000 0̏1̈́10̓0͂0ͅ0̆̈́0̀01̌1̄̌̏0̓̓1̣̉̌̀̃0̣̈1̈́̍ ̔0̍̌1͂0̉0̓̍̓010̓͂͂͂́00̆̀̍1̍00̀̓͂ͅ0 ̓̈́0̀1́1̌0̃̃̏0̈1̆0̈̏̈́1̈10̣1́̈0́̃0̓͂̃1̣̣̄̆ ̣̆̓̌1̌̌0̍1̌0̀0̈́̓0̔̉0̍1̓11̣̣̈ͅ0̈̏0̓1̌́0 ̌̓1̃̓̃01̓̓1̓̈̉11̔̉̀1̃0̓̓0ͅ11͂ ̉̌̄ͅͅ0̄1̓̉1ͅ0́0ͅ01̈́̉1̣̓́0̈́̈̓0̀̈́1̓̓10̔0̣̈̄̄̌́1̓́1͂0̓ ̃̄̔̃ͅ10͂̀0̣̈̌̄̏01͂̔1͂1̣̓ͅ1̍̈̆̏ͅ0̣̌̍0̄0̆00̓̃1̍1̏̃̆̏ ̓̍̈1̏00̄00̔01̈́ͅ1̆1̓̓ͅ0͂́̏̓̏ͅͅ0́̉̈00̣͂0̄1̍̃̆1̆ ̆̌̉0̈́̏͂̍0̓100̣0̏ͅ1̄̓͂1̀0̃ͅ0̣̏ͅ0̉̓1̆0̄̍0̉1̄̈́̃10̣ͅ ̈̓̈̈́1́1̓̃0͂0̌0̔̀͂ͅ1̌̆0̉̈́̄1̍1̈́1̣̃0̣̀0̣1̓́̄1̈ 0̣̈́1̣̣͂̈́̄̏̀0̣̃̌ͅ10̣̌0̈́1̓1̓̈́1́ͅ0̔0̈́0̀0̣̣̣͂̃0̓̓́ ̌̍11̓0̃̍0̀̈́͂̆́1̣ͅ1̔̄1
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Thank you.
I'm going to do my best to get some btc sent your way via the OWS Library. Hopefully, you can use them to spread awareness, whether its demonstrating how to use them or using them for flyers ect. How do you feel about this idea?
Hi, I haven't contacted the people that organize the library. I will go and talk to them, next time I go to taksim, which may take a while, because I need to attend a conference this week. I don't think they will accept monetary donation, but I'll let you know what they tell me. I'm curious about the similarities between Taksim and OWS. Are they using a General Assembly consensus model for mass decision making? Have they pooled funds based around working groups, ie flyer making, food distribution, march organization? Are there treasurers of any kind in these groups or the group at large? As far as donations go, I think a proof of concept viral 'tip demonstration' might do more good than a monetary donation per se. For example, reddit btc tips turning into more tips, allowing for wider possibility of adoption. |
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I could organize a bitcoin aid campaign if need be. Right now, the whole country is watching the events there, so the people who are staying there are supported by everyone in the country. I don't feel like they need material help at this point. I was there for a big demonstration yesterday, and it was so crowded, I could only stay for an hour. There was an old woman on the metro going to taksim, wearing a Guy Fawkes mask playfully to scare what looked like her granddaughter.
Another thing is that I don't want to be personally responsible for the transfer of a lot of bitcoins to the right people. So my suggestion would be that if the government tries to censor the internet etc. As the bitcoin community, we can provide high quality, paid vpn services for the people at the park.
That way those who want to contribute may pay for the vpn service directly and I would publish the information for these vpn accounts in turkish over facebook etc. to the organizers. I am not sure if this would be feasible in practice, but this is what I thought would make sense.
However, right now, this does not seem to be an issue either. The people are impossible to convince to use vpn (or open source alternatives to facebook or twitter), unless there is a problem with them (I know, it is stupid, but this is how it is).
I stayed there the night on saturday. I talked to some random people about bitcoins among other things. I can say that there is no awareness whatsoever about bitcoins in Turkey.
Thank you. I'm going to do my best to get some btc sent your way via the OWS Library. Hopefully, you can use them to spread awareness, whether its demonstrating how to use them or using them for flyers ect. How do you feel about this idea? |
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They don't ignore it, even though they might try.
To analyze "pure" capitalism, one has to ignore the state's influence.
The problem is that what one winds up analyzing, by ignoring the state, is an independently oppressive, albeit incomplete picture of what capitalism is.
There you have it. That may be the essence of your disagreement with them. Your claim is that capitalism is basket of things that includes states. Their claim, (which is inherent in their very name), is that capitalism can exist without a state, and that this would solve the problems that you have in the capitalism basket. Even that hypothetical "pure" Capitalism needs to have wage slaves indentured with economic coersion to generate profit for a profiteer -otherwise it's just squirrelish stockpiling. I object to capitalism because it is not sustainable without constant privatized violence and because it is an inefficient way to create and trade things. You object to something altogether different than what is advocated. Again, you don't understand what capitalism is, and are apparently unwilling to reconsider your position; and thus assume that we are your opposition because you misunderstand our position. Your confusion is not our responsibility; and despite our attempts to clarify your misunderstandings, you don't seem to have any interest in understanding anything. I'll admit, in the beginning I misunderstood your position as well, as your's is a rather unusual perspective in my experience; but I'm no longer confused. I understand your position, I don't disagree with it in any significant way; but you have a severely closed mind, either unwilling or unable to consider circumstances or possibilities outside of your prior consideration or comprehension. When I first engaged you, it was because you were namecalling and being mean. Since then, I've learned that you don't think you owe the world anything and you don't think an opinion can be a persuasuive argument. You think I can "learn" what capitalism is from you? When I've been under its boot and the boot of its conjoined twin, the state, my whole life? What you're advocating is a popular idealist fallacy. While you can't disagree with me on any meaningful way, I strongly object to the revisionist rhetoric you obviously consume and regurgitate. Your position is one that relies on what amounts to the blind systemic abuse of billions. Read more stuff you don't like and you might have a clue about what I'm saying. |
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The success of the buisiness would have to be great enough to allow the employer to spare more coins.
Infinitely?
At the same time, there is a limit to how successful any buisiness can be.
I think we will see a paradigm shift from employment to self-employment quite soon, which makes the question moot.
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They don't ignore it, even though they might try.
To analyze "pure" capitalism, one has to ignore the state's influence.
The problem is that what one winds up analyzing, by ignoring the state, is an independently oppressive, albeit incomplete picture of what capitalism is.
There you have it. That may be the essence of your disagreement with them. Your claim is that capitalism is basket of things that includes states. Their claim, (which is inherent in their very name), is that capitalism can exist without a state, and that this would solve the problems that you have in the capitalism basket. Even that hypothetical "pure" Capitalism needs to have wage slaves indentured with economic coersion to generate profit for a profiteer -otherwise it's just squirrelish stockpiling. I object to capitalism because it is not sustainable without constant privatized violence and because it is an inefficient way to create and trade things. |
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Nothing is voluntary with a gun to your head. There are factors at play, the omnipresent state, that youre ignoring. Capitalism in a stateless world is like Serfdom in a landless world.
By the way, Im pro monarchy.
This suggests that you would not oppose those AnCap fellows, if only you believed it were possible. But you believe instead that Capitalism requires a state so there can never be such a thing as an Anarcho Capitalist geography? I oppose it because I believe it is impossible. Capitalism analyzed ignoring state power (which requires analytic gymnastics) still results in oppression and coercion. I can't claim to speak for the AnCaps, but I think they do not ignore state power in any way. Rather they seek to make state power redundant or obsolete, and to separate the influence of capital upon state power. By your description of the oppression and coercion inherent in naked stateless capitalism, it seems you often mean what most might call enticement. The rights of violence is the monopoly of the state. They don't ignore it, even though they might try. To analyze "pure" capitalism, one has to ignore the state's influence. The problem is that what one winds up analyzing, by ignoring the state, is an independently oppressive, albeit incomplete picture of what capitalism is. |
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We live in a time period where we have access to any sort of knowledge within seconds at any point in time, almost anywhere there's a large number of people living. And then we use it to look at cats  Ancient Egypt would be proud. |
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In practice, what you describe is the exception to the rule within a state capitalist framework. Dependency on employers prevents many from ever coming far enough out of debt to do what they want.
I have a hard time with equating pay to exoneration or choice because reliance on any paycheck does not let you all the way out of the state or capitalist's control.
Pay is to coercion as exoneration is to execution. This does not in any way suggest that pay is equal to exoneration. Pay is merely a civil agreement to perform for compensation so no it does not let you all the way out of state control, this is not its promises. However it very well may put you all the way out of any particular capitalist's control, if by control you really mean enticement. In jobs that can teach you something, you might as well be an intern. Interns generally don't even get the fish for a day, the daily pay of the unskilled cabin boy is a better deal for the cabin boy. Your priorities are screwed. The civil agreement put forth by employers is the only option for toilers unless you can figure out how to thrive outside of it (which we should).
I know how, and my children will know also; but subsistance farming isn't a preferable lifestyle to most. Specialization is for insects, but free trade always improves the lifestyles of those who freely engage in it. And yes, I can prove that. http://desertislandgame.com/
I don't consider the fishermen slaves. That's a fantastic example of how mutual aid works. Captaining a ship with a crew is a-ok by me, yo.
Capitalist pig! Hmm. Without access to other people's economic calculations re: internships, you have no basis for accusing them of having screwed priorities. As someone who has actually been an intern, in my case the incentives were right for both sides of the trade. I got to work at a 'cool' place, had tutoring, room to experiment and make mistakes, and that made up for the low wage. In return, the employer got their easier/menial tasks done for a lower price, giving their full-time employees time to do more advanced stuff. Win win. That desert island game seems like childish propaganda -- the only incentive that exists is a contrived need to eat an equal yet maximal amount of fish and coconuts. What about personal growth? Boredom? Self-sufficiency/safety/redundancy? Maslow's hierarchy of needs?? In trying to make a point about trading, the game dehumanises the characters -- they're just drones, and you're the controller trying to maximise factory output. Market price for labor is how slavery works.
There is no such thing as a fair price, because the human slave trade determines the market price from the most abject slavery to the mcdonalds employee to the middle management and way on up to the CEO. A one way "market" is not a market. I cannot buy back my labor.
Great point. There seemed to be some uncomfortable squirming in the follow-up posts. I wonder why? Life largely consists of a fight for survival -- do whatever it takes to "not die" and then progressively fulfil all those other Maslowian needs. Being stuck, life-long in just one body (and you don't even get to choose which one) is not exactly a great start for voluntarism. It seems that most of life is involuntary -- people live out their genetic programming, and maybe, occasionally make conscious decisions. Even so, people seem divided on whether free will exists at all -- maybe our conscious 'I' is just a helpless observer and even the feeling of making a voluntary decision is just an illusion, another quale to add to the collection? There's the issue of death. It's an "unknown unknown". We usually don't know when it'll happen, but we also don't know what happens. Do we get re-incarnated? Do we die forever? We don't even have first-hand proof if it happens! We only have the evidence of the 'Matrix' senses telling us that lots of other people die every day. Thus, we can't make accurate economic calculations on how to spend our time. This is where capitalism breaks down -- the economic calculations just don't work when we have no freaking idea what proportion of our life we are exchanging for the temporary enjoyment of some material item. Similar points can be made about healthcare but I've had that discussion before. +>9000 Throw some transhumanist immortality a la Robert A Wilson, and I'm finding you and I'm hugging you. |
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You could imagine jobs that teach you nothing. We can call that toil. Payment for toil makes folks resist automation. Those jobs require automation, not human toil.
The labor union might resist, but why would the toilers resist getting a better tool? Those tools tend to make fewer people more productive with less toil, often followed by increased payment in competitive markets. Payment for toil is a signal to the market regarding which jobs require automation. It is both an easier to measure and more accurate signal, than whether the worker is learning something, to determine automation priorities. Why progress in the dark? Theyre sure to resist the machine entirely replacing them. Determination of what toil is can't be made based on pay, it has to be identified by toilers and communicated to automators, a process pay interferes with. |
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Nothing is voluntary with a gun to your head. There are factors at play, the omnipresent state, that youre ignoring. Capitalism in a stateless world is like Serfdom in a landless world.
By the way, Im pro monarchy.
This suggests that you would not oppose those AnCap fellows, if only you believed it were possible. But you believe instead that Capitalism requires a state so there can never be such a thing as an Anarcho Capitalist geography? I oppose it because I believe it is impossible. Capitalism analyzed ignoring state power (which requires analytical gymnastics) still results in oppression and coersion. |
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and the concept of moneybags "owning" land and trees. Get your imperialist history fixed.
The Spanish did not introduce the concept of ownership to the Americas. Get your real history straight. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Civilized_TribesThese were some of those 'Matriarchal' societies that you favor, and they most certainly had a concept of land ownership, particularly of homesteading. They were often referred to 'the people of the longhouse' because they built long multi-family dormitories EDIT: BTW, just because you're another American mutt, doesn't mean that you're not a racist. It's your beliefs that make you racist, not your bloodline. Calling me a mutt isn't racist, but me calling what whites mistakenly called "Indians" an appropriate misspelling implying a lampoon of inherent white racism is? I did not say "the concept of ownership." I said "the concept of moneybags "owning" land and trees" Individual ownership of land and trees. You me like ten apologies. |
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I don't know guys. I think anarchy is like communism. It sounds great on paper, but doesn't scale well beyond a commune. Anarchy is everything you enjoy in life, and violence is the opposite. Personally I might do well in an anarchy. But make no mistake I would organize an army and take what I want. I would charge you tribute or burn your village, take slaves, etc. Join me and be with the strong! In exchange for your unwavering obedience and occasional military service I will allow you to live in peace. Gota love anarchy! your idea of anarchy is flawed. . . sounds more like a state. It sounds like if the idea became reality then every country (if there were any) would be in constant turmoil. >implying every country is not in constant turmoil plus riotcops "Oh you know what I mean!" DOYOUSEETHESEMOVES?! *beatboxing intensifies* |
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