I think the TSO/CPP is still the same, and has never changed (since atleast November 2013 when I first saw it)

http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=850

What has changed is that giorgiomassa made it clear how it has to be interpreted in his last post here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=291141.msg5362648#msg5362648

I am not sure if giorgiomassa is legally right, or if he has mislead us all with the way the CPP is phrased:

Lets looks at it more clearly:


So giorgiomassa wants to make us believe that the moment paragraph 3) applies, suddenly paragraph 2) becomes invalid, and doesn't apply anymore.


Logic tells me that paragraph 2) does still apply and that's what every customer has assumed too.

Since paragraph 3) clearly mentions an optional action the customer can take (if he chooses to) it makes paragraph 2) look even more valid and untouchable,
since if you don't want you don't have to act upon paragraph 3), you can just ignore it. It's optional.
(Ofcourse should the customer decide to ask for a refund, the CPP together with the complete order is automatically cancelled.
THAT should be the only case when paragraph 2) becomes invalid.)

If paragraph 3) was supposed to invalidate paragraph 2) there should have been a clear formulation that this would be the case.

Giorgiomassa has made a reinterpretation.

What he does is a bit of a stretch: he declares paragraph 2) invalid since he probably assumed that everyone would ask for a refund anyway.
In fact I believe giorgiomassa really hopes and encourages at every chance he gets that we customers should take the refund. I wonder why?
(For example here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486808.msg5617570#msg5617570 )

PS I am not a lawyer.

I am not allowed to do a refund yet. I am at 30% CPP at the moment (I assume, I can't know for sure, since even you don't know for sure...)
I still hope I will get my two coindesks this month... It would make me happy. But more and more I think I am daydreaming...

I forgot to ask you:

are those 1500+ customers worldwide... or simply 1500+ ordered devices?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's the latter and you are again doing your politician-talk.  

Can you confirm?

And it sounds to me like you are "blaming the victim", which is just wrong.

Well, we can all learn, and tell others about our experience.
But to be silent is the last thing we should do, and that's why you see us complain.

And yes, I will keep complaining, why should I stop?
Has the situation changed or has restitution of any kind happened?

Obviously not, so why stop complaining?

Also, there is a really healthy reason WHY we complain, and it baffles me that bitmine doesn't understand this.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_complaint :

---

A consumer complaint or customer complaint is “an expression of dissatisfaction on a consumer’s behalf to a responsible party” .
It can also be described in a positive sense as a report from a consumer providing documentation about a problem with a product or service.[1]
In fact, some modern business consultants urge businesses to view customer complaints as a gift.

--->A Customer Complaint Is a Gift

---

I see it this way: complaining about a company is like "testing someones character".
Checking if the person really cares and wants to take responsibility.

But the way I have seen bitmine react in the last months is not very encouraging.
Instead of showing us that they can be trusted, they start to threaten us, they stifle discussion and even blame us for their delays (I still can't believe this   )....
What I initially hoped to become a good deal, has developped into something like a "visit to the dentist" that I can't wait to finally get behind me.
I so hope this will end soon, so I can procede with my life.

But "this dentist" won't even tell me how long I have to wait, and how soon the procedure will be over.... so the waiting and the ambiguity is slowly eating my nerves...

Bitmine, it's your last chance.
Prove you are worth something and that you can be trusted, and your customers will reward you.
Why is this so difficult to understand?

So complaint is not allowed?
Is that what it boils down to for you?
While we are raped we might just as well enjoy it?
(After all it's free sex, isn't it?  )

I don't understand the thought of some people here.

Fact is that the information on the bitmine.ch site for months now has been deliberately manipulating the customers into thinking that the risk is very low.
And that you can pay good money to get this low risk.
We were told that should something go wrong, we would get a CPP (everybody assumed an open-ended CPP), and even a 50% turbomode was implied that we could use to make up lost time.
But everything turns out to be a trick.

What good is a turbomode you can't really use ?
What good is a CPP that lets you down after 50% ?

Fact is that many people wouldn't have made orders if they knew how high the risk really is, and that everything bitmine posted was not facts, but assumptions.

So people payed good money, but still got high risk.
So in a way yes they were tricked.

PS: I still hope to get my two devices within the next 3 weeks (I am at 30% CPP at the moment). But I know for sure that I will not recommend or use bitmine ever again. It makes no sense, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Yes, I know, you were not alone in believing that the CPP will go on forever..

I clearly remember the first time giorgiomassa revealed that there is a "maximum" in the CPP:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=291141.msg5362648#msg5362648

In Article 7).

How convenient that it's also the time the discussion thread was closed down,
sending a clear message to the community:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRv9wGf5pk

Since this is the waiting line music when you call bitmine, and this music very fittingly describes bitmines behaviour, maybe there is some hidden message in the lyrics that can reveal further information to us about bitmines "train of thoughts":

---

I've got the power hey yeah heh
I've got the power
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh yeah-eah-eah-eah-eah-eah
I've got the power
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh yeah-eah-eah-eah-eah-eah
Gettin' kinda heavy

Like the crack of the whip I snap attack
Front to back in this thing called rap
Dig it like a shovel rhyme devil
On a heavenly level
Bang the bass turn up the treble
Radical mind day and night all the time
Seven to fourteen wise divine
Maniac brainiac winning the game
I'm the lyrical Jesse James

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh yeah-eah-eah-eah-eah-eah
I've got the power
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh yeah
Gettin' kinda heavy
I've got the power

It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda heavy
It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda heavy
It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda heavy
It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda heavy

I've got the power
He's gonna break my heart
He's gonna break my heart of hearts
He's gonna break my heart
He's gonna break my heart of hearts
He's got the power oh-oh-oh-oh

I've got the power
He's gonna break my heart
He's gonna break my heart of hearts
He's gonna break my heart
He's gonna break my heart of hearts
He's got the power oh-oh-oh-oh
I've got the power

It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda hectic
It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda hectic
It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda hectic
It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda hectic

It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda hectic
It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda hectic
It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda hectic
It's gettin' it's gettin' it's gettin' kinda hectic

Quality I possess something I'm fresh
When my voice goes through the rest
Of the microphone that I am holdin'
Copywritten lyrics so they can't be stolen
If they are snap
Don't need the police to try to save them
Your voice will sink so please stay off my back
Or I will attack and you don't want that

I've got the power
He's gonna break my heart
He's gonna break my heart of hearts
He's gonna break my heart
He's gonna break my heart of hearts
He's got the power oh-oh-oh-oh

I've got the power
He's gonna break my heart
He's gonna break my heart of hearts
He's gonna break my heart
He's gonna break my heart of hearts
He's got the power oh-oh-oh-oh

I've got the power

It's like politician talk. They talk differently to different kind of people.

I don't understand this: "Bitmine will nun all jenen, die das Warten satt haben, gratis 50 Prozent leistungsfähigere Chips installieren."

Translation:
"From now on, bitmine will give for free 50 percent more powerful chips to all the customers who have had enough of all the waiting"

Why is this written like something new that is going to help us?

That's the old CPP plan, plain and simple.

Has bitmine told 20min this, like some wonderful news that will solve all problems and make everyone happy?

If bitmine would stop playing games and stop talking like politicians, and if they really cared about their customers, they would give everyone additional 50% hashing power (and I mean additional to the CPP)

How about that? It would also make people forget the turbomode false advertisement. (many people fell for that)

I mean, does bitmine want me to order additional modules and devices in the future, or do they not care at all?

Really, but that would mean the windows wallet hasn't been updated since 29th August 2013?

I too have a quick question.

What is the most uptodate version of the devcoin wallet?

Thanks.

Yes, but then it's all about location, location.

Maybe I can create an offgrid power solution somewhere in greece or northern africa, but not where I am at the moment.

And then again. If your Miner consumes 2 kW an hour, that would be 48 kW a day...
The best solarpanels might provide 200 watt per Square meter. Per hour mind you. Now say we have 12 hours of sun in a very sunny country.

So if you really plan on running one single 2 TH miner completely offgrid, you will need atleast 20 square meters of solarpanels, and some giant accumulators to deliver the power over night.
(200 watt * 12 hours = 2400 Watt. To reach 48 KW we need 20 of those.)

So a 4 x 5 meter solar surface for one 2 TH miner.  

Crazy.

P.S And don't forget about cooling a constantly working 2kW device in such a hot environment... Scary...

That's only because the free market doesn't yet provide a solution for the giant mass of people.
The same thing was said about computers in the late 60s. That there is only a market for a handful of computers, big like a house. Kinda reminds me of that situation.

Not a single one of the big hardware manufacturers has yet tried to enter the mining market. No sony, samsung, panasonic, etc.. no nothing.

Now imagine that if BTC gains track, and more and more people really understand what it's all about, and how the system can be helped, and that to keep it decentralized is important for it's success...
... can't you then imagine that 10 billion small hashing devices (in your smartphone, pc, etc) will have a much higher cumulative power than a few centralized super computers?

What I want to say with this is: the reason we have a few massive mining corporations at the moment, is because it's still considered a very "niche" market, with an uncertain future...

Just look at us, here... waiting forever for an amateur company to patch together an overpriced miner!
That's not how a free market works. At the moment it's nothing but an exploitation business.

I am confident that this can and will change in the future. The free market will find a solution, and make everything cheap and fast for everyone to afford.
The free market has already proven with cpus, harddisks, smartphones, etc that it is able to do that.

What we lack now is adoption and world wide desirability.

It's only a sinkhole for people with tunnel vision.


Say I have a newborn son, who will cost me about 500k to 1000k dollars to raise and educate until he is 25 years old.

Do you consider this "a sinkhole"?
Because yes, from a financial standpoint it's extremely wasteful and uneconomic to have children. But yet most people want to have children.



How about helping the Bitcoin Network with Hashing power, so that this giant experiment succeeds?

I don't think it's so much about how early you entered in BTC realm.

It's more about how long you stayed.

I would be much more upset, if I had bought BTC in 2010 and sold them in 2011.

If I take this wisdow and I apply it to the future... I think the best behaviour is to just hang on for a few years, and quietly accumulate/generate.  Especially if you are a miner.

Imagine all miners acting this way? BTC price would grow a ten-fold.

I think that was satoshi nakamotos intention since day 1.
To have the miners act like some kind of "night watch" (think game of thrones  ) for the BTC price.

Only if you think like a daytrader who immediately dumps all generated coins on the market.

Why not just keep your coins? Sell them ONLY at a price you are comfortable with.

Waiting is very important if you want to be successful.

...

Yes, if you are one of those miners who depends on the machine to pay monthly bills, then it's gonna be a complete desaster...
...it doesn't work this way... stop thinking in days... start thinking in months and years.

I am going to help BTC by not underselling a specific price level. That's the least I can do, for myself, and the BTC market.

I am sorry, but it's customer first, not your honour first.

Your honour is completely irrelevant in an environment where customers are left alone and feel increasingly restless.

In such a situation, even one wrong word can ignite an explosion.

I understand that you were trying to help, and I value your input, but you could have used a less dismissive tone.

While in one way I understand that giorgiomassa blocked the thread to drive out the obvious trolls (who only seek attention and to cause damage),
in the same process he killed all legitimate discussion, which is incredibly counterproductive.

That we now have to dicuss unofficially here, and need people who actually recieve devices to finally reveal clarifying information because bitmine will not inform us themselves, speaks volumes.

 

Wow, you are right... I don't see a refund request form ANYWHERE...
But I guess you just have to tell them you want a refund, and it's ok.

It's illegal to force someone to use something that doesn't exist. This will not hold in any court.  

Phew! Good to know.

damn, not very encouraging.... you are the first guy I see reviewing an actual bitmine device... please go on testing the shit out of it... we need you.

Bitmine remains silent.

Exactly.

@Rave...have you recieved any information from bitmine regarding firmware updates?

How will this work?