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So here we are, nearly february 2014 and no one has recieved any device yet. Ouch.
When I ordered in november (february week 1) I so hoped and expected to hear reviews from other people who would have recieved their devices in the meantime (december and january)...
so I could have learned from their bug reports and prepare...
What will happen next?
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By the way, the 25% hashrate increase is for the chips. If you ordered a 200Gh/s unit, I guess that's what you will get... Plus, more frequent updates doesn't necessarily mean quicker production (remember BFL?). In other news, things don't look that good for turbo mode at the moment: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294235.msg4613821#msg4613821@giorgiomassa : What happens if the chips are not able to hash at 37.5Gh/s (turbo mode for the Desk) ? Well, that's exactly it. What I ordered is a machine that is capable of performing in turbo mode if necessary. Atleast that's how it was advertized at bitmine.ch and that's why I made the order. So yes. What happens if the chips we will get are not capable of any kind of turbomode ? I guess they have to reduce the price / give you more hash power so you can reach the turbo estimated power somehow. Simple isn't it?  Not really. It's not part of their customer protection plan. |
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By the way, the 25% hashrate increase is for the chips. If you ordered a 200Gh/s unit, I guess that's what you will get... Plus, more frequent updates doesn't necessarily mean quicker production (remember BFL?). In other news, things don't look that good for turbo mode at the moment: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294235.msg4613821#msg4613821@giorgiomassa : What happens if the chips are not able to hash at 37.5Gh/s (turbo mode for the Desk) ? Well, that's exactly it. What I ordered is a machine that is capable of performing in turbo mode if necessary. Atleast that's how it was advertized at bitmine.ch and that's why I made the order. So yes. What happens if the chips we will get are not capable of any kind of turbomode ? |
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It's inevitable, the world still runs on fiat. The only way for people to start valuing things in terms of a cryptocurrency is to basically start price fixing things.
-- Oh what can I get with 1 thousand bitcoins? today its a car, tomorrow its a house!
needs to turn into
-- Oh what can I get with 1 million devcoins? This, this and this, priced in devcoins and it doesn't seem to change day to day...I now know what I can get when someone offers me devcoins for work...I can rely on it!
At some point, will the amount of devcoins paid per 1000 words, or per bounty, become a fixed amount? Is that easier to account? Better for creators? Not as exciting? With shares, of course, how many coins you get paid is wildly dependent on how many shares everyone gets.
Fixing things will always achieve the opposite. The way I want crypto currencies to succed is to see them be deflationary forever. Because people tend to do everything better and more efficient over time, that's the nature of the free markets. Ofcourse only If governments gets out of the way. Imagine a world where everything is like computers. Getting cheaper and faster all the time aslong as laws of nature allow for an improvement. That would be the only limit we get on what we can achieve. Not the limits and fixings made by governments.What's with the space craft that will be payed with devcoins in 2035? To reach that goal we need the free market.  We need to think outside of government dogma and propaganda. |
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It is them calculating in dollars. Have you ever watched what happens with coins that the masses know of no drop dead simple way to turn into fiat?
Have you noticed they always want an exchange to/from fiat first before even a place to buy coffee or food or clothing or shelter with the coin?
I assumed the gold-farmers would be looking for gold they can sell for dollars, otherwise presumably they would already be flooding into the CPU mining concept to mine gold they can sell for DeVCoins or Litecoins or Bitcoins or Martian Botcoins or United Kingdom Britcoins or Canadian Digital notes or whatever...
For the programmers, presumably they are probably doing code-monkey level stuff to try to get some fiat, otherwise they would do much cleverer stuff heck even just doign a quick hack job on a foocoin->barcoin scale would likely make them more money faster, or being the one who hires codemonkeys to make code be more lucrative (assuming they actually have good ideas of what to have built instead of just coding skills without any idea what would actually be profitable if built.)
-MarkM-
Yes, but devcoin plays an important part in this coming paradigm change. At the moment the big part of world wide population has no easy access to cryptocurrency because they have to go thru the dinosaur banking system and their insane regulations. So they always have to use fiat to buy crypto, and it's a hurdle many are not willing to jump over. But devcoin gives people worldwide the possibility to recieve a well established cryptocurrency by doing some task and creating something of value for the open source community. So fiat is not needed anymore to recieve a cryptocurrency. Now your work is needed, and not government controlled fiat currency. THAT is one of the most important potentials devcoin has. It's like what they say about bitcoin: That bitcoins future will be absolutely bright should we reach a point sometime when many people get payed their salary in bitcoins and then go and buy things with bitcoins (and therefor pay the salary of other people in bitcoin etc)... a neverending circle of crypto bliss. When that is achieved, cryptocurrencies will be a large part of the world economy. Devcoin can help this process. |
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If we pick the programs we pay people to develop correctly, western programmers should have problem moving on from writing profitable programs for X dollars an hour to running profitably programs written by others for X/10 or whatever dollars an hour?
The trick lies in the design/determination of what programs will be profitable to run, not in how cheaply you can hire yourself out as a code-monkey (typing ape?), presumably.
-MarkM-
Yes, but why do you keep on calculating everything in dollars? That's part of the dump mentality that immediately wants to dump devcoins for dollars, in fear that something might happen to devcoins value. I have now long understood that those hilarious coins I have in my wallets are always going to surprise me when I keep valueing them in fiat dollars. So I'd better stop with that.A devcoin is a devcoin. A bitcoin is a bitcoin. The sooner everybody accepts that the faster we will move into the future. If the low wage workers see that others take 1000 devcoins for a similar job why should they play by government rules when they don't need to do so? Why should they take the same differential that exists with dollars and apply it to devcoins? Why not just taking 900 devcoins instead of only 100? If they are cheaper, they will play with the market, and not give their competitive advantage away for free like stupid slaves. If they are clever they should derive the value of devcoins by the stuff they can buy with devcoins someplace where devcoins are accepted... (thats what we need more of) |
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A bounty exchange would be cool but when I brought it up before UTB said we simply don't have enough admins to support growing bounty list that is dynamic based on some demand... but I think if it starts small it will go a long way to 1) get new ideas of projects that may help devcoin and 2) a platform to communicate, update status and provide feedback to those working on bounties.. would help organize things, like maybe a testing phase of the bounty where people are assigned to tasks to ensure the bounty is complete to spec.
Exactly. The system should work fine on its own. Admins should only do something if there is a complaint and question etc... that would be the ultimate goal. The amount of shares that are given should be derived by the developer who is willing to take the least amount of devcoins for the particular task.
That way we could introduce some kind of competition that lowers the shares, but rises the value of devcoins.
Aslong as people get large amount of devcoins for simply writing a text about anything they want nomatter the value for society we are not going anywhere.
It seemed just a matter of time for this shoe to drop. The religious zeal of market competition will have western freelance developers competing with Asian developers for $3/hour bids, which one now sees on many coding monkey projects' sites. Meanwhile writers get $50/hour for writing to DevTomes. A few shares spread around for a committee to get the mandate of this project down for referral may be a good idea. - Nova Yes, I understand this. But let's not forget this is the holy new bitcoin economy. Yes, other nations are forced to use certain kinds of currencies and are used to certain kinds of government subsidised living expenses.... we have to take that into account. But bitcoin/devcoin etc is awholenother gameplay. Let poorer people show what they can do, and earn their living by recieving a fair and decent amount of currency. They are not stupid, and embrace new possibilities. We want poorer people in this market, don't you agree? Why exclude them? We absolutely need low wage jobs so that practically everyone can enter the jobmarket. That is a fantastic thing and should not be seen as a problem. In the contrary, will that not advance the open source community even more? Also just wait... life is going to get more expensive in those countries soon.... should a big collapse of worldwide connected fiat currencies come (and I am 100% sure this is going to happen) then we will see people flock into alternative markets even more than we already see. It is possible (and crypto price development agrees with me) that cryptos might help derive a new worldwide standard of purchasing power index, so that (expressed in bitcoins) disparities in worldwide living expenses will not be as large as they are now. It will bring the people of the world (who are separated by their governments) together. (What is the real cost of things? How long will we let corrupt government set price indexes of stuff we need in our lifes? Can't cryptos do a better job in that in the future?) |
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I was thinking about the possibilities of devcoin and what direction it should take in the future, and there was one thing I wondered:
If we want to pay creators/developers for open source stuff they create... shouldn't we first have some kind of open bulletin board where people can request useful stuff of all kinds?
If we want to create an open market where ideas and developers meet, we should not forget the need for a platform where people can express their wishes.
I understand that at this point most bounties and wishes are revolving arount the basic management, administration and financialization of the devcoin/devtome platforms, but shouldn't we early enough implement a simple yet partitioned platform for idea exchanges?
Good idea. How about a section of the new forum? ThinkI Yes, a forum would be a first simple playground for that. But in the end I can imagine some form of "exchange", where jobsoffers and jobrequests meet, and are somehow coordinated and pushed upwards depending on how many people find this a good idea. The amount of shares that are given should be derived by the developer who is willing to take the least amount of devcoins for the particular task. That way we could introduce some kind of competition that lowers the shares, but rises the value of devcoins. Aslong as people get large amount of devcoins for simply writing a text about anything they want nomatter the value for society we are not going anywhere. |
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I was thinking about the possibilities of devcoin and what direction it should take in the future, and there was one thing I wondered:
If we want to pay creators/developers for open source stuff they create... shouldn't we first have some kind of open bulletin board where people can request useful stuff of all kinds?
If we want to create an open market where ideas and developers meet, we should not forget the need for a platform where people can express their wishes.
I understand that at this point most bounties and wishes are revolving arount the basic management, administration and financialization of the devcoin/devtome platforms, but shouldn't we early enough implement a simple yet partitioned platform for idea exchanges?
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I have faith in Bitmine but I am also worried... But what if you paid with Bitcoin ? - 1 Coincraft Desk with 1 stock module 200GH/s on october 10 2013 costed $1499 = 11.9 BTC  will you get refund of 11.9 + 10% = 13,09 BTC ? - or you will get f*cked (sorry for using this word) and get $1499 + 10% = $1648,9 * BTC-Rate(1 BTC= $859) = 1,9 BTC -> you loose 10 BTC ! you know I sometime have sleepless nights regarding the last scenerio....  if it will happen (I hope not) never accept refund and keep waiting for your miner and claim extra 10% hashing power every subsequent 10 days. +1 No, I asked them this question a month ago or so. And you will always get dollars back, never bitcoins. Look at your order (under "my account"), it says dollars everywhere. Bitcoin amount I payed is nowhere listed, only in the payment receipt I got per email. |
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.... Bitmine makes a noble gesture and gives something in return (I mean more hashpower). ....
If that were to happen.... I would absolutely order additional units in the near future. But we all know what is written in the contract, and I fear that more promises are not going to help anyone of us. |
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bitmine.ch:
2) The nominal hashing power is 25 GH/s and not 20 GH/s as initially announced, this is due to some last minute optimizations that have been made with the design, a free 25% increase!
I am sure those are 8 chips running at 25 Ghs each (total of 200 Ghs), and not (as you would like) 10 chips running at 20 Ghs (totalling 200 Ghs) that will be able to run in turboboost of 250 Ghs. So forget this. So greed wins again eh? Shame... Still think the doubling hashpower would be a good idea, even if we don't get the "free 25% increase".. They have the capacity to produce many boards in a short time and they said they have more than enough chips lined up.. (in fact they are still taking orders for chip delivery...). Yep, they made the "last minute optimization" (the free 25% increase) for themselves, so to speak, not for us muppets. But why did they post this in october as some kind of "news for the customer" ... I don't understand... Don't get me wrong, I like all good news for the company, I like that they win distributors in USA and that they improve the circuits etc... it looks like the company is growing and doing well... but when the customers keep on waiting for the products... it makes the company look like she's growing on the back of the customers... |
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Thank you Giorgio for the update.
To all of you who are whining about delays, you implicitly agreed that Customer Protection Plan would make up for any delay when you ordered.
Please stop complaining, it's not helping anybody, and Bitmine is not going to give you free stuff.
If you are looking for drama, I'll invite you to hang out on the HashFast thread.
You might find it fun to look for useful information throughout the 300+ pages of b*tching around.
Cheers
Nothing like a 1 post user registered today, telling us how to behave. If you don't complain, the producer may think that everything is alright, and that he can relax forever.... |
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This looks like 8 chips of 25 Ghs making up a 200 Ghs Modul of a coindesk. However, I do believe the hashpower of these machines will EXCEED what we think they will be, This is because the original hashpower quotes were based off of a nominal speed of 20Gh/s per chip, when in fact the chips run at 25GH/s per chip, that's a 25% increase right off the bat. 2) The nominal hashing power is 25 GH/s and not 20 GH/s as initially announced, this is due to some last minute optimizations that have been made with the design, a free 25% increase!
See: http://bitmine.ch/?p=2226 Posted on October 15, 2013 This combined with what will be essentially a 60 day delay in shipping means that your say 1 TH/s order should provide 1.25TH(initial) + 0.96 TH/s (bonus 10% * 50 days/10) = 2.21 TH/s in nominal mode and 40/25 * 2.21 TH/s = 3.536 TH/s in turbo mode... of course they may omit the 25% boost on orders placed after the 15th of October. But this really depends on the integrity of this company, if they provide less chips than they initially planned in order to rush out orders and don't compound the 10% hashrate increase as is standard then it could be much lower. If they do that then I will seriously consider taking my business elsewhere for the next generation. I am sure those are 8 chips running at 25 Ghs each (total of 200 Ghs), and not (as you would like) 10 chips running at 20 Ghs (totalling 200 Ghs) that will be able to run in turboboost of 250 Ghs. So forget this. |
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Many people will want to let the units run in turbo mode to make up for the delay.
But what I hear makes me believe that turbomode (although possible) is a very bad idea if the units are barely stable in normal mode.
All the promises we got seem like pipedreams now.
I am also disappointed by the delays... it really pisses me off that some people have expected shipping dates yet, I ordered really early(mid september a few days after announcement), in fact am #10X in shipping queue and still don't have an estimate for the shipping date for my order. However, I do believe the hashpower of these machines will EXCEED what we think they will be, This is because the original hashpower quotes were based off of a nominal speed of 20Gh/s per chip, when in fact the chips run at 25GH/s per chip, that's a 25% increase right off the bat. 2) The nominal hashing power is 25 GH/s and not 20 GH/s as initially announced, this is due to some last minute optimizations that have been made with the design, a free 25% increase!
See: http://bitmine.ch/?p=2226 Posted on October 15, 2013 This combined with what will be essentially a 60 day delay in shipping means that your say 1 TH/s order should provide 1.25TH(initial) + 0.96 TH/s (bonus 10% * 50 days/10) = 2.21 TH/s in nominal mode and 40/25 * 2.21 TH/s = 3.536 TH/s in turbo mode... of course they may omit the 25% boost on orders placed after the 15th of October. But this really depends on the integrity of this company, if they provide less chips than they initially planned in order to rush out orders and don't compound the 10% hashrate increase as is standard then it could be much lower. If they do that then I will seriously consider taking my business elsewhere for the next generation. To be perfectly honest, If I was in charge, I'd double all the initial December batch orders just to keep my customers happy rather than make them suffer for delays that shouldn't of happened. It may cut a little bit into their profit margins but that'd only be for the first month of orders and doing something like this would really inspire confidence in them. Would definitely make a repeat customer out of me. I eagerly await official commentary on this. You raise some very good points. Makes me eager to see a response to that by giorgiomassa. Maybe the 25% performance boost you talk about, is what makes the turboboost possible... maybe that IS the turboboost calculation? So the chips normally run somewhat slower (not 100%, but 80%) so to make them live longer? |
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Thanks for the news & update,
My question is: once the glitches with the PCB design are fixed, will you be able to increase production and catch up with the expected delivery schedule for February and March batches?
Cheers
Yes, we have already allocated enough resources to increase our production ability by four times by making double shifts and doubling the production lines, we are confident that once the glitches are fixed everything should go ahead very fast. DOes this account for turbomode too? |
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Many people will want to let the units run in turbo mode to make up for the delay.
But what I hear makes me believe that turbomode (although possible) is a very bad idea if the units are barely stable in normal mode.
All the promises we got seem like pipedreams now.
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all the signs are: we got scammed in a certain way. At least I expect it judging by the current information we got so far.
I mean the information they are providing are very fragmented and do prove nothing.
Let's not forget, bitmine IS a real firm, located in switzerland, with telefon, address and many more things. They DO really exist, they are also visible in swiss registries, like for example here: http://tel.search.ch/?tel=0912909099So a scam they are certainly not. (Whois of bitmine.ch http://www.whois.com/whois/bitmine.ch ) So stop the FUD. They have delays and they even kinda expected to have delays, ergo the CPP. But a scam is something completely different. I am located in switzerland too (St.Gallen), and I might go and visit them, but it will be a three hour train ride (one way, so 6 hours train that day) if someone is willing to chip in some Namecoins oder Devcoins (See my signature)... i might actually do that. I have been calling bitmine a few times now, and I could imagine doing that. What do you guys think? I will visit them, and make fotos wherever I am allowed. Can even do an interview of sorts. |
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